RE: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-10 Thread Peter Williams
From: Jon Tan I think that for any agent the semantic way to separate address lines would be using a comma at the end of each line as appropriate, which regardless of what mark-up was used would be interpreted correctly by screen readers. Doesn't this also apply to non-CSS agents

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-10 Thread Hope Stewart
On 10/10/05 3:38 PM, Christian Montoya [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Read this aloud: 909 anystreet ithaca, new york Did you stop at the line break? Did it matter? My point is that we don't need to make the line break obvious to the screen reader. For this address it doesn't matter, but for

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-10 Thread Buddy Quaid
sense R - Original Message - From: Christian Montoya To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 3:38 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br On 10/9/05, Richard Czeiger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: OK so someone pointed out that

[WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Hope Stewart
I'm getting the hang of this whole Web Standards way of designing a website and for the most part can totally avoid using br. But in the example below I'm unsure whether I should in fact avoid using br: pstrongAll correspondence should be addressed to:/strongbr / The Secretarybr / Your Clubbr /

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Richard Czeiger
. This is usually presented by a symbol at the end of the first line ( or some such) Any other examples? R - Original Message - From: Hope Stewart [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Web Standards Group wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 8:47 AM Subject: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br I'm

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread XStandard
Hi Hope, There is nothing evil about the br element unless one is using it for visual effect. In your example, you are using br correctly. For addresses, you might want to use the address element instead of p. Regards, -Vlad http://xstandard.com Original Message From: Hope

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Christian Montoya
The one thing that jumps immediately to my mind is poetry where the linebreak has serious semantic value. Another might be for code snippets where the author wants to indicate thatthe actaull code continues on one line but is broken up in his example fordeomnstration / readability. This is usually

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Mike Brown
Richard Czeiger wrote: I think the bigger question is can someone proivde an example of when best to use the br / tag in general? What type of content semantically requires a line break. - Original Message - From: Hope Stewart I'm unsure whether I should in fact avoid using br:

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Jon Tan
Standards Group wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2005 11:47 PM Subject: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br I'm getting the hang of this whole Web Standards way of designing a website and for the most part can totally avoid using br. But in the example below I'm unsure whether I should

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Geoff Deering
Vlad Alexander (XStandard) wrote: Hi Hope, There is nothing evil about the br element unless one is using it for visual effect. In your example, you are using br correctly. For addresses, you might want to use the address element instead of p. Regards, -Vlad http://xstandard.com I

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Mordechai Peller
Hope Stewart wrote: pstrongAll correspondence should be addressed to:/strongbr / The Secretarybr / Your Clubbr / PO Box 999br / Anytown VIC 3000/p This may be a good case for an address tag: pAll correspondence should be addressed to:/p address spanThe Secretary/span spanYour Club/span

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Hope Stewart
On 10/10/05 9:47 AM, Jon Tan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tantek Celik talks about the address and br / tags in his Elements of Meaningful XHTML presentation at WE05 available here: http://www.odeo.com/audio/270419/view I was present for Tantek's talk and I thought he said address was used only

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Terrence Wood
Jon Tan said: My suggestion would be that br / is not necessary when the same visual effect can be achieved with span around each address item which is then style span{display:block} with CSS. Each span could have a semantically useful classname or you could look in to the hCard microformat:

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Jan Brasna
pAll correspondence should be addressed to:/p address spanThe Secretary/span spanYour Club/span spanPO Box 999/span spanAnytown VIC 3000/span /address a) This is IMHO not good use for an address element (context matters). b) spans? Why? The're inline and they're overhead here. -- Jan Brasna

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Hope Stewart wrote: How do others code an address? My feeling is that semantically it should be contained within one paragraph or entity of some sort. But if you were using a screen reader, how would you differentiate one line from the next? Non-CSS browsers dictates where to use br /

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Jon Tan
span has absolutely no semantic value, so unless you are going to apply formatting to each constiuent of the address, or you are going to use the hcard microformat I really see no point in adding page weight simply to avoid using a br / element of two. kind regards Terrence Wood. The hCard

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Jon Tan
I was present for Tantek's talk and I thought he said address was used only for information about the author, not for various adddresses that might be listed on a Contact Us page. I don't recall what he said about br. I'll have to download the podcast and listen to it again -- it will be a

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Patrick H. Lauke
Hope Stewart wrote: I was present for Tantek's talk and I thought he said address was used only for information about the author Which holds true if the address is used to mark up: - the contact information for the current site (e.g. if it's a corporate site and you're giving the company's

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Lea de Groot
On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 00:47:42 +0100, Jon Tan wrote: My suggestion would be that br / is not necessary when the same visual effect can be achieved with span around each address item which is then style span{display:block} with CSS. Curiosity - why use a span and apply display: block? Why not

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Mordechai Peller
Mike Brown wrote: Ok, I'll bite and ask why would you not use br / in the address example above? Aren't the semantics of an address that the different elements are (usually) on separate lines? You answered your own question: Parts of an address are *usually*, but *not always*, written on

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Jon Tan
pstrongAll correspondence should be addressed to:/strongbr / The Secretarybr / Your Clubbr / PO Box 999br / Anytown VIC 3000/p How do others code an address? My feeling is that semantically it should be contained within one paragraph or entity of some sort. But if you were using a screen reader,

RE: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Graham Cook
If BR is good enough for W3C, it's good enough for me. Refer: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/html3/address.html The ADDRESS element specifies such information as address, signature and authorship for the current document, and typically placed at the top or bottom of the document. When used with %text,

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Mordechai Peller
Terrence Wood wrote: span has absolutely no semantic value, That's not quite true. The spans used in the previous examples do have semantic value: they group together parts of an address. Admittedly, that might not be much, but it's not nothing.

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Jon Tan
Curiosity - why use a span and apply display: block? Why not just use a div in the first place? What are we gaining that I have missed? Hi Lea, The span use instead of div was to allow for semantic class names as per http://www.microformats.org/wiki/hcard. Maybe it's also personal preference

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Mordechai Peller
Graham Cook wrote: If BR is good enough for W3C, it's good enough for me. Refer: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/html3/address.html Sure, back in March 1995 when HTML 3.0 was released as a recommendation. ** The discussion list for

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Jon Tan
If BR is good enough for W3C, it's good enough for me. Refer: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/html3/address.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.13/126 - Release Date: 09/10/2005 Hi Graham Without being pedantic, you're

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Mordechai Peller
Lea de Groot wrote: Curiosity - why use a span and apply display: block? Why not just use a div in the first place? What are we gaining that I have missed? It's invalid: !ELEMENT address %Inline; ** The discussion list for

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Thierry Koblentz
Jon Tan wrote: The span use instead of div was to allow for semantic class names as per http://www.microformats.org/wiki/hcard. Maybe it's also personal preference but I would always seek to minimise the block level grouping elements in my mark-up. span or div, if the purpose of wrapping

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Richard Czeiger
itself - check out what's happening over here! http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2004/02/xhtml-rdf.html#div154379976 R :o) - Original Message - From: Patrick H. Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 10:43 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Lea de Groot
On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 03:18:51 +0200, Mordechai Peller wrote: It's invalid: !ELEMENT address %Inline; What? No, this is used instead of an address element. No one suggested we should put divs inside an address. Jon's reply of matching the hcard microformat is a good one :) Thank you, Jon.

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Jon Tan
span or div, if the purpose of wrapping these lines is just to make them behave as block elements, then why not wrapping only 2 our of 4? If it was pure presenation, sure, but this was with reference to sematics. A hCard (which was the original idea of the reply) needs more:

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Geoff Deering
Mordechai Peller wrote: Graham Cook wrote: If BR is good enough for W3C, it's good enough for me. Refer: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/html3/address.html Sure, back in March 1995 when HTML 3.0 was released as a recommendation. It hasn't changed.

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Mordechai Peller
Jon Tan wrote: It's arguable whether address applies to the whole resource or just a document within it, In many cases, the contact information for a document and that of its site are the same. This is especially true on a Contact Us or an About Us type page.

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Terrence Wood
I need to rephrase what I said earlier. If you are using the hcard microformat, or you want to apply styles to each constiuent use span. If the previous conditions are not true, then use br, because it has much semantic value as span and uses less markup. span is a generic container for language

RE: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Craig Rippon
Crikey, I use br / all the time. I did not know I was being so naughty. -Original Message- From: Hope Stewart [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, 10 October 2005 8:48 AM To: Web Standards Group Subject: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br I'm getting the hang of this whole Web Standards way

RE: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Peter Firminger
This thread is a clear case of why non-standards developers laugh at us (Web Standards Zealots) and justifiably say we're irrelevant. We're arguing over a line break! Forget the context (but a postal or street address is a fine example of the need for a line break in the way most (en) people

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Alan Trick
- Original Message - From: Hope Stewart [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Web Standards Group wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2005 11:47 PM Subject: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br I'm getting the hang of this whole Web Standards way of designing a website and for the most part can totally

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Buddy Quaid
Peter Firminger wrote: This thread is a clear case of why non-standards developers laugh at us (Web Standards Zealots) and justifiably say we're irrelevant. We're arguing over a line break! Forget the context (but a postal or street address is a fine example of the need for a line break in the

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Richard Czeiger
the spec and put out a note letting everyone know. Cheers, WSG What do you think? R :o) - Original Message - From: Buddy Quaid [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 1:50 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br Peter Firminger wrote

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Christian Montoya
On 10/9/05, Richard Czeiger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: OK so someone pointed out that pre would be better for poetry That was me. pre does a nice job of handling the visual side of things but from ascreen reader's point of view, how do they handle a line break through preas opposed to br /. Do

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Christian Montoya
On 10/9/05, Buddy Quaid [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Peter Firminger wrote:This thread is a clear case of why non-standards developers laugh at us (WebStandards Zealots) and justifiably say we're irrelevant.We're arguing over a line break! Forget the context (but a postal or street address is a fine

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Richard Czeiger
wouldn't make sense R - Original Message - From: Christian Montoya To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 3:38 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br On 10/9/05, Richard Czeiger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: OK so someone pointed out that pre would