Re: [WSG] blockquote

2010-04-04 Thread Chris Price
Blockquote is one of those tags that was badly misused for styling purposes.
Now it can only be used within a block level element, namely p. I like to
use the q tag because it introduces quote marks in Firefox.

I can't see what value it now has. Being a block quote you would assume it
is a block element but if it requires a container it just seems to be an
unnecessary layer. Wouldn't it be better to simply encase a quote in a p and
give a class 'blockquote'?

On 4 April 2010 03:39, T. R. Valentine trvalent...@gmail.com wrote:

 Apparently, blockquote/blockquote cannot be used alone. It
 produces 'character data is not allowed here'. What does it need?

 Also, can the blockquote tag have a class assigned to it?

 TIA

 --
 T. R. Valentine
 Your friends will argue with you. Your enemies don't care.
 'When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left I buy food
 and clothes.' -- Erasmus


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-- 
Chris Price
0777 629 0227

follow me at http://twitter.com/hypergossip_uk
and http://facebook.com/chris.t.price


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Re: [WSG] blockquote

2010-04-04 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

On 04/04/2010 10:38, Chris Price wrote:

Blockquote is one of those tags that was badly misused for styling
purposes. Now it can only be used within a block level element, namely
p. I like to use the q tag because it introduces quote marks in Firefox.

I can't see what value it now has. Being a block quote you would assume
it is a block element but if it requires a container it just seems to be
an unnecessary layer. Wouldn't it be better to simply encase a quote in
a p and give a class 'blockquote'?


blockquote allows you to pull together multiple paragraphs as part of a 
single quote. just having separate paragraphs with qs would just not 
mark them as being part of the same quote, rather than separate quotes. 
*if* you've only got a single-paragraph quote, this line gets blurry 
though. one thing blockquote does have that q doesn't is also the cite 
attribute (as minimally useful as it is today).


P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]

www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com | http://flickr.com/photos/redux/
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twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke
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Re: [WSG] blockquote

2010-04-04 Thread T. R. Valentine
On 4 April 2010 04:38, Chris Price chris.pr...@choctaw.co.uk wrote:
 Blockquote is one of those tags that was badly misused for styling purposes.
 Now it can only be used within a block level element, namely p. I like to
 use the q tag because it introduces quote marks in Firefox.

I do a lot of academic-style essays where extended quotations are
common. From a semantic POV, blockquote makes a lot of sense -- but
extended quotes in block form obviate the need for quotation marks.

 I can't see what value it now has.

Semantic value, for sure.


 Being a block quote you would assume it
 is a block element but if it requires a container it just seems to be an
 unnecessary layer.

ISTM the unnecessary layer is the block element within the blockquote.
I consider the use of a div element within the blockquote to be
approaching 'divitis'.

 Wouldn't it be better to simply encase a quote in a p and
 give a class 'blockquote'?

Blockquotes are not supposed to have quotation marks.



-- 
T. R. Valentine
Your friends will argue with you. Your enemies don't care.
'When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left I buy food
and clothes.' -- Erasmus


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Re: [WSG] blockquote

2010-04-04 Thread David Hucklesby

On 4/4/10 2:53 AM, Patrick H. Lauke wrote:

... one thing blockquote does have that q doesn't is also the cite
attribute (as minimally useful as it is today).



I believe that Q elements do allow the cite attribute. But, as you say,
this is rarely useful. Q may be more useful when writing in more than
one language, as you get language-appropriate quote marks.

OTOH I find BLOCKQUOTE very useful, especially as many quotes I use are
multiple paragraphs. YMMV.

Cordially,
David
--


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Re: [WSG] blockquote

2010-04-03 Thread Paul Novitski

At 4/3/2010 07:39 PM, T. R. Valentine wrote:

Apparently, blockquote/blockquote cannot be used alone. It
produces 'character data is not allowed here'. What does it need?



Check the spec:

HTML 4.01 Specification
9 Text
9.2 Structured text
9.2.2 Quotations: The BLOCKQUOTE and Q elements
http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/text.html#h-9.2.2

!ELEMENT BLOCKQUOTE - - (%block;|SCRIPT)+ -- long quotation --

This excerpt from the Document Type Declaration specifies that the 
only children of blockquote permitted are block-type elements and 
script. In other words, text within the blockquote element must be 
enclosed in a p, div, list, or other block-type element.




Also, can the blockquote tag have a class assigned to it?


Let's find out. From the above reference:

!ATTLIST BLOCKQUOTE
  %attrs;  -- %coreattrs, %i18n, %events --
  cite%URI;  #IMPLIED  -- URI for source document or msg --
  

This specifies which attributes blockquote may have. The symbol 
%attrs is defined as:


!ENTITY % attrs %coreattrs; %i18n; %events;

...%coreattrs in turn is defined as:

!ENTITY % coreattrs
 id  ID #IMPLIED  -- document-wide unique id --
  class   CDATA  #IMPLIED  -- space-separated list of classes --
  style   %StyleSheet;   #IMPLIED  -- associated style info --
  title   %Text; #IMPLIED  -- advisory title --
  

So yes, you may validly assign a class attribute to a blockquote element.

Regards,

Paul
__

Paul Novitski
Juniper Webcraft Ltd.
http://juniperwebcraft.com 




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Re: [WSG] blockquote

2010-04-03 Thread Gene Falck

Hi T. R.,

You wrote:


Apparently, blockquote/blockquote cannot be used alone. It
produces 'character data is not allowed here'. What does it need?


I think I've seen this before and put my text inside a p block
inside the blockquote to solve the problem.


Also, can the blockquote tag have a class assigned to it?


Once you've got a correct (no error / complaint from your
favorite checker) give it a try and let us know how it works
out--I've only used one style of blockquote at a time and
so I usually just style the blockquote directly.

--

Gene Falck
gfa...@merr.com



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Re: [WSG] blockquote

2010-04-03 Thread T. R. Valentine
On 3 April 2010 22:26, Gene Falck gfa...@merr.com wrote:
 Hi T. R.,

 You wrote:

 Apparently, blockquote/blockquote cannot be used alone. It
 produces 'character data is not allowed here'. What does it need?

 I think I've seen this before and put my text inside a p block
 inside the blockquote to solve the problem.

I tried this, but apparently some of the css for the p block was
royally fouling up the blockquotes. But Paul's answer that it could be
done with a div was perfect. Added a div for each blockquote and
-- voila! -- validation without messing up the layout.

 Also, can the blockquote tag have a class assigned to it?

 Once you've got a correct (no error / complaint from your
 favorite checker) give it a try and let us know how it works
 out--I've only used one style of blockquote at a time and
 so I usually just style the blockquote directly.

It can. Usually, a blockquote will be following by a new paragraph,
but sometimes the paragraph continues so I wanted to close up the
space between the last paragraph (blockquote and div) of the block and
the following p. Using an adjacent sibling selector solved that
nicely.

Thanks for all the information.


-- 
T. R. Valentine
Your friends will argue with you. Your enemies don't care.
'When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left I buy food
and clothes.' -- Erasmus


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Re: [WSG] Blockquote

2009-01-08 Thread David Dorward

James Jeffery wrote:
Thanks for the heads up guys. I know how to use blockquote, that's not 
an issue, but I'm wondering if using cite would be worth it.


I won't be storing the URL from the original page. If I did citing the 
orig. page that could get me into a while lot of trouble if I am 
mirroring/scraping/*stealing* quotes from certain sites. Hence why I 
do not want to cite the original site.


I'm not sure I understand you correctly. Are you saying that your are 
infringing on copyright and are worried that citing the source will get 
you caught? If so, you're trying to solve the wrong problem and should 
be seeking to license the content or otherwise use it within the 
constraints of the law.



--
David Dorward
http://dorward.me.uk/


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Re: [WSG] Blockquote

2009-01-08 Thread Adam Martin
Yes I don't think this is the place to ask advise on illegal matters. 
Scraping content from websites that you do not have permission from is 
copyright infringement. The fact that you don't want to cite the original 
source inidcates to me that you are building this site for some financial 
gain - whether that is to get exposure, advertising revenue or other means.


Respect the content owners, ask for their permission to use the content!!


- Original Message - 
From: David Dorward da...@dorward.me.uk

To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 8:42 AM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Blockquote



James Jeffery wrote:
Thanks for the heads up guys. I know how to use blockquote, that's not an 
issue, but I'm wondering if using cite would be worth it.


I won't be storing the URL from the original page. If I did citing the 
orig. page that could get me into a while lot of trouble if I am 
mirroring/scraping/*stealing* quotes from certain sites. Hence why I do 
not want to cite the original site.


I'm not sure I understand you correctly. Are you saying that your are 
infringing on copyright and are worried that citing the source will get 
you caught? If so, you're trying to solve the wrong problem and should be 
seeking to license the content or otherwise use it within the constraints 
of the law.



--
David Dorward
http://dorward.me.uk/


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RE: [WSG] Blockquote

2009-01-08 Thread Patrick Lauke
Bringing it all back to the core question: cite is an optional
attribute, so can be omitted when using the blockquote element.

P

Patrick H. Lauke
Web Editor
Enterprise  Development
University of Salford
Room 113, Faraday House
Salford, Greater Manchester
M5 4WT
UK

T +44 (0) 161 295 4779
webmas...@salford.ac.uk

www.salford.ac.uk

A GREATER MANCHESTER UNIVERSITY 


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Re: [WSG] Blockquote

2009-01-08 Thread James Jeffery
This is the Internet mate, the site owners of the sites I'm to be scraping
use the same methods. If I was to cite that site it would be wrong anyway
because they don't even own all the content.

If there is a financial gain, why sit back and let someone else gain from
it? I know a guy that does the same with a lyrics site and makes roughly
£14,000 a year in Adsense. It has to be done.

On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 9:08 AM, Adam Martin ajmartin...@gmail.com wrote:

 Yes I don't think this is the place to ask advise on illegal matters.
 Scraping content from websites that you do not have permission from is
 copyright infringement. The fact that you don't want to cite the original
 source inidcates to me that you are building this site for some financial
 gain - whether that is to get exposure, advertising revenue or other means.

 Respect the content owners, ask for their permission to use the content!!


 - Original Message - From: David Dorward da...@dorward.me.uk
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 8:42 AM
 Subject: Re: [WSG] Blockquote


  James Jeffery wrote:

 Thanks for the heads up guys. I know how to use blockquote, that's not an
 issue, but I'm wondering if using cite would be worth it.

 I won't be storing the URL from the original page. If I did citing the
 orig. page that could get me into a while lot of trouble if I am
 mirroring/scraping/*stealing* quotes from certain sites. Hence why I do not
 want to cite the original site.


 I'm not sure I understand you correctly. Are you saying that your are
 infringing on copyright and are worried that citing the source will get you
 caught? If so, you're trying to solve the wrong problem and should be
 seeking to license the content or otherwise use it within the constraints of
 the law.


 --
 David Dorward
 http://dorward.me.uk/


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Re: [WSG] Blockquote

2009-01-08 Thread Adam Martin
last comment I will make on the matter - but theft is theft, because 
someone else does it does not change the law... nor does the media that 
you use.. the Internet still operates within the laws of the country 
where you conduct business.



James Jeffery wrote:
This is the Internet mate, the site owners of the sites I'm to be 
scraping use the same methods. If I was to cite that site it would be 
wrong anyway because they don't even own all the content.


If there is a financial gain, why sit back and let someone else gain 
from it? I know a guy that does the same with a lyrics site and makes 
roughly £14,000 a year in Adsense. It has to be done.


On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 9:08 AM, Adam Martin ajmartin.nz 
http://ajmartin.nz@gmail.com http://gmail.com wrote:


Yes I don't think this is the place to ask advise on illegal
matters. Scraping content from websites that you do not have
permission from is copyright infringement. The fact that you don't
want to cite the original source inidcates to me that you are
building this site for some financial gain - whether that is to
get exposure, advertising revenue or other means.

Respect the content owners, ask for their permission to use the
content!!


- Original Message - From: David Dorward
da...@dorward.me.uk mailto:da...@dorward.me.uk
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org mailto:wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 8:42 AM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Blockquote


James Jeffery wrote:

Thanks for the heads up guys. I know how to use
blockquote, that's not an issue, but I'm wondering if
using cite would be worth it.

I won't be storing the URL from the original page. If I
did citing the orig. page that could get me into a while
lot of trouble if I am mirroring/scraping/*stealing*
quotes from certain sites. Hence why I do not want to cite
the original site.


I'm not sure I understand you correctly. Are you saying that
your are infringing on copyright and are worried that citing
the source will get you caught? If so, you're trying to solve
the wrong problem and should be seeking to license the content
or otherwise use it within the constraints of the law.


-- 
David Dorward

http://dorward.me.uk/


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Re: [WSG] Blockquote

2009-01-08 Thread Andrew Maben

On Jan 8, 2009, at 8:49 AM, Adam Martin wrote:

but theft is theft, because someone else does it does not change  
the law...


indeed...

but I'm losing track of what exactly this has to do with standards?


Andrew




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Re: [WSG] Blockquote

2009-01-08 Thread James Jeffery
It doesn't. I was supposed to email off list. Back to the question.

On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 1:58 PM, Andrew Maben and...@andrewmaben.com wrote:

 On Jan 8, 2009, at 8:49 AM, Adam Martin wrote:

 but theft is theft, because someone else does it does not change the law...


 indeed...

 but I'm losing track of what exactly this has to do with standards?


 Andrew



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[WSG] Blockquote

2009-01-07 Thread James Jeffery
I'm developing a site. A quote site infact. For the quotes I think it's wise
to use blockquote ... but, the quotes are being scraped from other sites
so how would I cite them? Could I use a wiki url for the author? And what if
the author is unknown or has no wiki page.

Do I *need* to include the cite attribute?


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RE: [WSG] Blockquote

2009-01-07 Thread Kepler Gelotte
 ... but, the quotes are being scraped from other sites so how would I cite
them?

 

I thought the cite attribute was the URL of the original page the quote came
from. For example (from
http://htmlhelp.com/reference/html40/block/blockquote.html):

 

BLOCKQUOTE
CITE=http://www.bibliomania.com/Fiction/joyce/ulysses/telemac.html;
PHe pointed his finger in friendly jest and went over to the parapet,
laughing to himself. Stephen Dedalus stepped up, followed him wearily half
way and sat down on the edge of the gunrest, watching him still as he
propped his mirror on the parapet, dipped the brush in the bowl and lathered
cheeks and neck./P
PBuck Mulligan's gay voice went on./P
BLOCKQUOTEPMy name is absurd too: Malachi Mulligan, two dactyls. But it
has a Hellenic ring, hasn't it? Tripping and sunny like the buck himself. We
must go to Athens. Will you come if I can get the aunt to fork out twenty
quid?/P/BLOCKQUOTE
/BLOCKQUOTE

 

Since you are scraping the site you should have the URL.

 

Best regards,

Kepler Gelotte

Neighbor Webmaster, Inc.

156 Normandy Dr., Piscataway, NJ 08854

 http://www.neighborwebmaster.com www.neighborwebmaster.com

phone/fax: (732) 302-0904



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TEL;WORK;FAX:(732) 302-0904
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Re: [WSG] Blockquote

2009-01-07 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com

Hi James,


quotes are being scraped from other sites
how would I cite them?


Something like this might work well:

blockquote cite=http://site.com/quotesource;
pQuoted text goes here./p
pcitea href=http://site.com/quotedperson;Quoted 
Person/a/cite/p

/blockquote

The link within the cite element is optional, they may be the same or 
different as shown, and the cite attribute itself is optional, used only 
when the quote, as you say, is scraped from another site. :)


Hope that helps.

Cheers.
Mike Cherim
http://green-beast.com


- Original Message - 
From: James Jeffery jamesjeffery@googlemail.com

To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 5:58 PM
Subject: [WSG] Blockquote


I'm developing a site. A quote site infact. For the quotes I think it's 
wise

to use blockquote ... but, the quotes are being scraped from other sites
so how would I cite them? Could I use a wiki url for the author? And what 
if

the author is unknown or has no wiki page.

Do I *need* to include the cite attribute?


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Re: [WSG] Blockquote

2009-01-07 Thread Ben Buchanan
2009/1/8 James Jeffery jamesjeffery@googlemail.com

 I'm developing a site. A quote site infact. For the quotes I think it's
 wise to use blockquote ... but, the quotes are being scraped from other
 sites so how would I cite them? Could I use a wiki url for the author? And
 what if the author is unknown or has no wiki page.
 Do I *need* to include the cite attribute?

While the cite attribute isn't mandatory, your scenario actually solves its
own problem. You can put in the URL you got the quote from. The cite
attribute is set up for that sort of usage:

cite = uri [CT]
The value of this attribute is a URI that designates a source document or
message. This attribute is intended to give information about the source
from which the quotation was borrowed.

http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/text.html#h-9.2.2

If you wanted to visibly show the actual author/quote source (ie. who said
it, not where you got it) then you could include the name in a cite. eg.

blockquote cite=
http://www.rtnda.org/pages/media_items/edward-r.-murrow-speech998.php;

pThis instrument can teach, it can illuminate; yes, and it can even
inspire. But it can do so only to the extent that humans are determined to
use it to those ends. Otherwise it is merely wires and lights in a box.
There is a great and perhaps decisive battle to be fought against ignorance,
intolerance and indifference. This weapon of television could be useful./p

pciteEdward R. Murrow/cite, RTNDA Convention Speech, October 15
1958/p

/blockquote

cheers,

Ben

-- 
--- http://weblog.200ok.com.au/
--- The future has arrived; it's just not
--- evenly distributed. - William Gibson


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Re: [WSG] Blockquote

2009-01-07 Thread Chris Cressman
 ,,,and the cite attribute itself is optional, used only
 when the quote, as you say, is scraped from another site. :)

The cite attribute is poorly supported by most browsers, in the sense
that they don't do anything with it. However, you can use a CSS
attribute selector and CSS generated content to display its value on
your page. I'm not a CSS expert, so I can't code it up, but perhaps
someone else will do it if you're interested.

Chris


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Re: [WSG] Blockquote

2009-01-07 Thread James Jeffery
Thanks for the heads up guys. I know how to use blockquote, that's not an
issue, but I'm wondering if using cite would be worth it.

I won't be storing the URL from the original page. If I did citing the orig.
page that could get me into a while lot of trouble if I am
mirroring/scraping/*stealing* quotes from certain sites. Hence why I do not
want to cite the original site.

Any advances on the problem?

If I could leave the cite out, without it causing an issue then I would. I
was going to use a p, but an uncited blockquote would be more semantic
than a p I felt.


On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 12:33 AM, Chris Cressman ch...@chriscressman.comwrote:

  ,,,and the cite attribute itself is optional, used only
  when the quote, as you say, is scraped from another site. :)

 The cite attribute is poorly supported by most browsers, in the sense
 that they don't do anything with it. However, you can use a CSS
 attribute selector and CSS generated content to display its value on
 your page. I'm not a CSS expert, so I can't code it up, but perhaps
 someone else will do it if you're interested.

 Chris


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[WSG] BLOCKQUOTE Problem

2006-01-28 Thread Paula Petrik
All right, this is probably a less than gripping question and more  
pertinent to academic writing. Nonetheless. The blockquote element  
requires that it enclose block level elements--in my case usually a  
p. Since blockquotes are usually in a run of text (#content p), it  
picks up the content p's line-height. But a blockquote,  
typographically speaking, should have a reduced line-height to  
differentiate it from the other paragraphs in the text. (Besides, a  
blockquote with standard paragraph line-height looks ukky.) Here I  
run afoul of the cascade unless I use a span; #blockquote p will  
not work because of the #content p rule. First, is there another,  
better way of accomplishing reducing the line-height in a blockquote  
other than using a span? Second, will I be a CSS Night Patrol  
target if I use a span to reduce the line-height?

Thank you,
Paula

Paula Petrik
Professor
Department of History  Art History
Associate Director
Center for History  New Media
George Mason University
http://www.archiva.net





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RE: [WSG] BLOCKQUOTE Problem

2006-01-28 Thread Ted Drake
Why are you using #blockquote?

You can target paragraphs et al within a blockquote with descending
selectors: blockquote p, blockquote a, blockquote cite, etc. 
 
I'm getting a bit tired of my over the top blockquotes:
http://www.tdrake.net/durward-and-the-rocket/
But I have messed with some of the styles already. I then used the edit-css
tool in the web developer toolbar and started playing around with blockquote
p {font-size:85%, line-height:1.1em; color:silver;...} and it worked like a
charm.

What is a link to your problem page?

Ted


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Paula Petrik
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 1:40 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] BLOCKQUOTE Problem

All right, this is probably a less than gripping question and more  
pertinent to academic writing. Nonetheless. The blockquote element  
requires that it enclose block level elements--in my case usually a  
p. Since blockquotes are usually in a run of text (#content p), it  
picks up the content p's line-height. But a blockquote,  
typographically speaking, should have a reduced line-height to  
differentiate it from the other paragraphs in the text. (Besides, a  
blockquote with standard paragraph line-height looks ukky.) Here I  
run afoul of the cascade unless I use a span; #blockquote p will  
not work because of the #content p rule. First, is there another,  
better way of accomplishing reducing the line-height in a blockquote  
other than using a span? Second, will I be a CSS Night Patrol  
target if I use a span to reduce the line-height?
Thank you,
Paula

Paula Petrik
Professor
Department of History  Art History
Associate Director
Center for History  New Media
George Mason University
http://www.archiva.net





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Re: [WSG] BLOCKQUOTE Problem

2006-01-28 Thread Paul Novitski

At 01:39 PM 1/28/2006, Paula Petrik wrote:

The blockquote element
requires that it enclose block level elements--in my case usually a
p. Since blockquotes are usually in a run of text (#content p), it
picks up the content p's line-height. But a blockquote,
typographically speaking, should have a reduced line-height to
differentiate it from the other paragraphs in the text. (Besides, a
blockquote with standard paragraph line-height looks ukky.) Here I
run afoul of the cascade unless I use a span; #blockquote p will
not work because of the #content p rule. First, is there another,
better way of accomplishing reducing the line-height in a blockquote
other than using a span? Second, will I be a CSS Night Patrol
target if I use a span to reduce the line-height?


Paula,

You could use spans, I'm sure with few untoward consequences, however 
it's probably not necessary to risk even minor bodily injury.


The CSS selector #blockquote p wouldn't be right unless your markup included:

sometag id=blockquote

which I assume is not the case.  Drop the # and you're probably OK.

(It's always a good idea to post a demo page where we can see your 
exact markup, however:) Assuming that this is your markup:


div id=content

pBlah de blah/p

blockquote
pSignificant quotatation/p
/blockquote
/div

Then these rules should apply:

#content p
{
/* rules for paragraphs */
}

#content blockquote p
{
/* rules for paragraphs within blockquotes */
}

The latter rule has greater specificity, so it should successfully 
overrule the former.  For a fun read, try:


CCS 2.1: 6.4.3 Calculating a selector's specificity
http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/cascade.html#specificity

Regards,
Paul 


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Re: [WSG] BLOCKQUOTE Problem (Solved)

2006-01-28 Thread Paula Petrik

Paul  Ted,
Many thanks! What was I thinking? And why did I make that thoughtless  
typing error--#blockquote?

Best,
Paula

Paula Petrik

Paula Petrik
Professor
Department of History  Art History
Associate Director
Center for History  New Media
George Mason University
http://www.archiva.net





On Jan 28, 2006, at 5:20 PM, Ted Drake wrote:


Why are you using #blockquote?

You can target paragraphs et al within a blockquote with descending
selectors: blockquote p, blockquote a, blockquote cite, etc.

I'm getting a bit tired of my over the top blockquotes:
http://www.tdrake.net/durward-and-the-rocket/
But I have messed with some of the styles already. I then used the  
edit-css
tool in the web developer toolbar and started playing around with  
blockquote
p {font-size:85%, line-height:1.1em; color:silver;...} and it  
worked like a

charm.

What is a link to your problem page?

Ted


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]  
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

On Behalf Of Paula Petrik
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 1:40 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] BLOCKQUOTE Problem

All right, this is probably a less than gripping question and more
pertinent to academic writing. Nonetheless. The blockquote element
requires that it enclose block level elements--in my case usually a
p. Since blockquotes are usually in a run of text (#content p), it
picks up the content p's line-height. But a blockquote,
typographically speaking, should have a reduced line-height to
differentiate it from the other paragraphs in the text. (Besides, a
blockquote with standard paragraph line-height looks ukky.) Here I
run afoul of the cascade unless I use a span; #blockquote p will
not work because of the #content p rule. First, is there another,
better way of accomplishing reducing the line-height in a blockquote
other than using a span? Second, will I be a CSS Night Patrol
target if I use a span to reduce the line-height?
Thank you,
Paula

Paula Petrik
Professor
Department of History  Art History
Associate Director
Center for History  New Media
George Mason University
http://www.archiva.net





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 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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Re: [WSG] blockquote in screen viewer!

2005-09-26 Thread Kenny Graham
Lynx is text-only in the really old computer sense of the word.  It
can't display italics, only different text colors and background
colors.  This isn't a problem though.  Displaying blockquotes as
indented italics is just a popular way for graphical browsers to
display them by default.  It's not required or anything.  If having
your blockquotes in italics is important for the way you want your
site to look, I recommend specifying that in your CSS.
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[WSG] blockquote in screen viewer!

2005-09-25 Thread tee

Hi,
It seems that screen viewer doesn't show blockquote' content in  
italic. Is this supposed to be or I got the markup wrong.


this is the page (in Chinese):
http://www.whpsy.com/synth/view/04113002.htm

The blockquotes are in light olive background within the p tags. /*  
Please ignore all validation errors. Italic looks awful in Chinese so  
it doesn't set to - Strictly speaking, there is no Italic this sort  
of thing in Chinese text, that means if you ever see site in Chinese  
that use Italic font, it's a borrowed from English.  */


And an English page I was comparing. /* I am curious as to why it  
doesn't show italic in screen viewer */

http://www.gordonmac.com/testing/GMV20/

when view in lxyn screen viewer, the texts in the blockquote are  
not italic.

http://www.yellowpipe.com/yis/tools/lynx/lynx_viewer.php

Thanks in advance for enlightenment.

tee


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Re: [WSG] Blockquote or Q?

2005-06-28 Thread James Denholm-Price
Apologies for being a bit slow on the uptake but the always
informative Roger Johansson (456bereastreet) has this useful article
[1] which supports what's been said and provides useful links to the
HTML4 spec.

James

[1] 
http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200411/quotations_and_citations_quoting_text/
http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200411/quotations_and_citations_quoting_text/
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Re: [WSG] Blockquote or Q?

2005-04-20 Thread Mr Bean
Actually, the requirement for having p (or
whatever) in your blockquotes is sort of a weird
one, IMHO. I believe they've planned to remove that
from xhtml2, but in your case it makes sense anyways.

--- Cole Kuryakin - x7m [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I've inserted a bunch of brs
 within the quote in order to control the line breaks
 of each quote. Just a
 design thing. Is this really a no, no or would
 this be permissable?
 Cole

No. It's not a 'no,no', but how important is it that
there is a line break after seldom and books?

The problem with using br is that when I scale the
page larger, it messes everything up. I think you can
acheive the same effect by just using the overflow to
make new lines and then it scales nicer.

__ 
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Re: [WSG] Blockquote or Q?

2005-04-20 Thread Cole Kuryakin - x7m
Thanks for your input. I sorta figured br's weren't forbidden fruit within
blockquotep but I just wanted to ask.

 how important is it that
 there is a line break after seldom and books?

Well, hum, okay. You're right, It's not that important.

I come from 26 years in print design (only the past 3 on web projects) and
it's been difficult for me to let go of the near manical control I've been
able to wield over past print projects (oh, no! the logo's off by a
millimeter!!). Sometimes I still struggle with it - like how those lines
break in the quote. Silly. However,  I'm happy to report that most of my
designs do turn out the way I want them, as well as validate (XHTML and
CSS). If I can't get the visual to work...and the code to validate...I'll
re-work it until I know I can produce it to standards.

Anyway, thanks for the how important is it? remark. Sometimes I need to be
reminded.

I'll take a stab at overflow - never used it before - instead of the
brs.

Cole




- Original Message -
From: Mr Bean [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 10:54 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Blockquote or Q?


 Actually, the requirement for having p (or
 whatever) in your blockquotes is sort of a weird
 one, IMHO. I believe they've planned to remove that
 from xhtml2, but in your case it makes sense anyways.

 --- Cole Kuryakin - x7m [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  I've inserted a bunch of brs
  within the quote in order to control the line breaks
  of each quote. Just a
  design thing. Is this really a no, no or would
  this be permissable?
  Cole

 No. It's not a 'no,no', but 
 The problem with using br is that when I scale the
 page larger, it messes everything up. I think you can
 acheive the same effect by just using the overflow to
 make new lines and then it scales nicer.

 __
 Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
 **
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  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
  for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
 **




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[WSG] Blockquote or Q?

2005-04-19 Thread Cole Kuryakin - x7m



Hi everyone.

I'm working on a site that contains 1 boxed quote per page. By 
boxed, I mean there's a red border that encloses the quote.

These aren't famouse quotes - or anything particulary special 
-just quotes from people who have read the pre-release of a new 
book.

So, semantically speaking, should I be using Blockquote or Q 
tags?

I don't think Cite is appropriate, and I'm not sure about Q 
either as I've read that Q should be used for quotations within a block of 
inline text.

I'm leaning toward blockquote (stripping the indention via 
css), but I wanted to throw this question out and see if anyone had a strong 
opinion about this matter as it pertains to this particular 
project.

Sample test page is here: http://www.x7m.us/_clients/danielik/dev/testing/index.htm

Thanks to all in advance,

Cole


Re: [WSG] Blockquote or Q?

2005-04-19 Thread Lea de Groot
On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 20:40:53 +0800, Cole Kuryakin - x7m wrote:
 So, semantically speaking, should I be using Blockquote or Q tags?

Blockquote, I beleive - you're correct in that q is meant for inline
eg
psome text qwhat he said/q more text./p

I normally start my css file with
* {
  margin: 0;
  padding: 0;
}
anyway which would already have stripped the blockquote indenting :)

Lea
~ looking for a perm. position in Brisbane. Contact me for CV.
-- 
Lea de Groot
Elysian Systems - I Understand the Internet http://elysiansystems.com/
Search Engine Optimisation, Usability, Information Architecture, Web 
Design
Brisbane, Australia
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Re: [WSG] Blockquote or Q?

2005-04-19 Thread Alan Trick
In writing (like not-web writing) there is a thing were quotes that are 
just are just a few lines are written in the normal flow of the text; 
however, if a quote is more than 3-4 lines it is separate and indented 
(about .5' on each side, but it depends on whose rules you use).

Anyways that is what blockquote was meant to refer to.  I your situation 
I would use

div id='sidebar'
  blockquote
pI am seldom attracted to books of this genre.p
pThis author was recommended by a friend, and I couldn't put it 
down!/p
  /blockquote
  cite
 Cole Kuryakinbr
San Francisco
  /cite
/div

The only issue with the blockquote is that it can't contain plain text, 
it has to be in a p or something, but if you don't like the extra 
margin the p gives, you can just do

blockquote p{margin:0}
in the css
Alan
Lea de Groot wrote:
On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 20:40:53 +0800, Cole Kuryakin - x7m wrote:
So, semantically speaking, should I be using Blockquote or Q tags?

Blockquote, I beleive - you're correct in that q is meant for inline
eg
psome text qwhat he said/q more text./p
I normally start my css file with
* {
  margin: 0;
  padding: 0;
}
anyway which would already have stripped the blockquote indenting :)
Lea
~ looking for a perm. position in Brisbane. Contact me for CV.
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RE: [WSG] Blockquote or Q?

2005-04-19 Thread Hugues Brunelle



Hi Cole,
Blockquote for sure, and like Alan suggest, make use of 
normal tags inside.
And let me give you a nice trick to insert language 
specific quotemarks :
If you declare the language in your HTML tag 
likehtml lang="fr-ca" ... you can define inside 
your CSS what kind of quote mark to insertbefore and after 
yourblockquote, so then you do not have to manually insert those quote 
marks and forget about them:)
blockquote:lang(fr-ca) {
	quotes: " «" " »" " " " ";
}
blockquote:before {
	content: open-quote;
}
blockquote:after {
	content: close-quote;
}As you can see an exemple at http://www.echo3d.com/faq/Later,Hugues BrunelleConcepteur graphique//ECHO tridimension2139 rue MassonMontréal QC H2H 1A81-(514)5211360[EMAIL PROTECTED]


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cole Kuryakin - 
x7mSent: April 19, 2005 07:41To: 
wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: [WSG] Blockquote or 
Q?

Hi everyone.

I'm working on a site that contains 1 boxed quote per page. By 
boxed, I mean there's a red border that encloses the quote.

These aren't famouse quotes - or anything particulary special 
-just quotes from people who have read the pre-release of a new 
book.

So, semantically speaking, should I be using Blockquote or Q 
tags?

I don't think Cite is appropriate, and I'm not sure about Q 
either as I've read that Q should be used for quotations within a block of 
inline text.

I'm leaning toward blockquote (stripping the indention via 
css), but I wanted to throw this question out and see if anyone had a strong 
opinion about this matter as it pertains to this particular 
project.

Sample test page is here: http://www.x7m.us/_clients/danielik/dev/testing/index.htm

Thanks to all in advance,

Cole


Re[2]: [WSG] Blockquote or Q?

2005-04-19 Thread Martin Heiden
Hugues,

HB Blockquote for sure, and like Alan suggest, make use of normal tags inside.
HB And let me give you a nice trick to insert language specific quotemarks :
HB If you declare the language in your HTML tag like html lang=fr-ca ...
HB you can define inside your CSS what kind of quote mark to insert before and
HB after your blockquote, so then you do not have to manually insert those
HB quote marks and forget about them :)

  What about IE? This doesn't work in IE. You could of cause do some
  magic trickery with JavaScript, but what about users without CSS
  and/or JavaScript?

  I would prefer your way, but I don't think that is already usable
  nowadays.
  
Martin



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RE: Re[2]: [WSG] Blockquote or Q?

2005-04-19 Thread Hugues Brunelle
You're right.
And I would not call any fixes with javascript.
So like everything, you can decide to use these CSS declarations or not :)

Hugues

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Martin Heiden
Sent: April 19, 2005 09:59
To: Hugues Brunelle
Subject: Re[2]: [WSG] Blockquote or Q?

Hugues,

HB Blockquote for sure, and like Alan suggest, make use of normal tags
inside.
HB And let me give you a nice trick to insert language specific quotemarks
:
HB If you declare the language in your HTML tag like html lang=fr-ca 
HB ... you can define inside your CSS what kind of quote mark to 
HB insert before and after your blockquote, so then you do not have to 
HB manually insert those quote marks and forget about them :)

  What about IE? This doesn't work in IE. You could of cause do some
  magic trickery with JavaScript, but what about users without CSS
  and/or JavaScript?

  I would prefer your way, but I don't think that is already usable
  nowadays.
  
Martin



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Re: [WSG] Blockquote or Q?

2005-04-19 Thread Ben Hamilton
On 4/19/05, Alan Trick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Anyways that is what blockquote was meant to refer to.  I your situation
 I would use
 
 div id='sidebar'
blockquote
  pI am seldom attracted to books of this genre.p
  pThis author was recommended by a friend, and I couldn't put it
 down!/p
/blockquote
cite
   Cole Kuryakinbr
  San Francisco
/cite
 /div
 
 The only issue with the blockquote is that it can't contain plain text,
 it has to be in a p or something, but if you don't like the extra
 margin the p gives, you can just do

Should the cite be outside the blockquote? or should it be inside? or either?

i.e. blockquoteptext/p/blockquotecitetext/cite 
or
blockquoteptext/pcitetext/cite/blockquote

Ben.


Re: [WSG] Blockquote or Q?

2005-04-19 Thread Cole Kuryakin - x7m



Hughes -

That is a neat trick. Thanks for sharing!

Cole

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Hugues 
  Brunelle 
  To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org 
  Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 11:11 
  PM
  Subject: RE: [WSG] Blockquote or Q?
  
  Hi Cole,
  Blockquote for sure, and like Alan suggest, make use of 
  normal tags inside.
  And let me give you a nice trick to insert language 
  specific quotemarks :
  If you declare the language in your HTML tag 
  likehtml lang="fr-ca" ... you can define inside 
  your CSS what kind of quote mark to insertbefore and after 
  yourblockquote, so then you do not have to manually insert those quote 
  marks and forget about them:)
  blockquote:lang(fr-ca) {
	quotes: " «" " »" " " " ";
}
blockquote:before {
	content: open-quote;
}
blockquote:after {
	content: close-quote;
}As you can see an exemple at http://www.echo3d.com/faq/Later,Hugues BrunelleConcepteur graphique//ECHO tridimension2139 rue MassonMontréal QC H2H 1A81-(514)5211360[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  
  
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cole Kuryakin - 
  x7mSent: April 19, 2005 07:41To: 
  wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: [WSG] Blockquote or 
  Q?
  
  Hi everyone.
  
  I'm working on a site that contains 1 boxed quote per page. 
  By boxed, I mean there's a red border that encloses the quote.
  
  These aren't famouse quotes - or anything particulary 
  special -just quotes from people who have read the pre-release of a new 
  book.
  
  So, semantically speaking, should I be using Blockquote or Q 
  tags?
  
  I don't think Cite is appropriate, and I'm not sure about Q 
  either as I've read that Q should be used for quotations within a block of 
  inline text.
  
  I'm leaning toward blockquote (stripping the indention via 
  css), but I wanted to throw this question out and see if anyone had a strong 
  opinion about this matter as it pertains to this particular 
  project.
  
  Sample test page is here: http://www.x7m.us/_clients/danielik/dev/testing/index.htm
  
  Thanks to all in advance,
  
  Cole


Re: [WSG] Blockquote or Q?

2005-04-19 Thread Cole Kuryakin - x7m
Alan -

Thanks for the clarification. I didn't know that you had to (were suppose
to) surround text tags with the blockquote - but now I know!

One follow-on:

As you could see on the like I provided, I've inserted a bunch of brs
within the quote in order to control the line breaks of each quote. Just a
design thing. Is this really a no, no or would this be permissable?

Cole

- Original Message -
From: Alan Trick [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 9:43 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Blockquote or Q?


 In writing (like not-web writing) there is a thing were quotes that are
 just are just a few lines are written in the normal flow of the text;
 however, if a quote is more than 3-4 lines it is separate and indented
 (about .5' on each side, but it depends on whose rules you use).

 Anyways that is what blockquote was meant to refer to.  I your situation
 I would use

 div id='sidebar'
blockquote
  pI am seldom attracted to books of this genre.p
  pThis author was recommended by a friend, and I couldn't put it
 down!/p
/blockquote
cite
   Cole Kuryakinbr
  San Francisco
/cite
 /div

 The only issue with the blockquote is that it can't contain plain text,
 it has to be in a p or something, but if you don't like the extra
 margin the p gives, you can just do

 blockquote p{margin:0}

 in the css

 Alan

 Lea de Groot wrote:
  On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 20:40:53 +0800, Cole Kuryakin - x7m wrote:
 
 So, semantically speaking, should I be using Blockquote or Q tags?
 
 
  Blockquote, I beleive - you're correct in that q is meant for inline
  eg
  psome text qwhat he said/q more text./p
 
  I normally start my css file with
  * {
margin: 0;
padding: 0;
  }
  anyway which would already have stripped the blockquote indenting :)
 
  Lea
  ~ looking for a perm. position in Brisbane. Contact me for CV.

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[WSG] blockquote cite=what the?

2004-10-21 Thread Daniel Bowling
Ok, I consider myself fairly savvy in XHTML, but for the life of me I
can't figure out what the cite attribute of blockquote is really good
for if it doesn't display to the end user. If you are quoting something
that needs to be cited, shouldn't it be in a way that any reader can see
the attribution?

Is there a logical, semantic, way to utilize the cite attribute to do
such a thing (and without JavaScript?)

Dan Bowling
W: http://www.danbowling.com

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Re: [WSG] blockquote cite=what the?

2004-10-21 Thread Clayton Lengel-Zigich
There is this format for presenting quotes

As CITEHarry S. Truman/CITE said,
Q lang=en-usThe buck stops here./Q

More info here : http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/struct/text.html#edef-CITE


On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 10:57:09 -0500, Daniel Bowling
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Ok, I consider myself fairly savvy in XHTML, but for the life of me I
 can't figure out what the cite attribute of blockquote is really good
 for if it doesn't display to the end user. If you are quoting something
 that needs to be cited, shouldn't it be in a way that any reader can see
 the attribution?
 
 Is there a logical, semantic, way to utilize the cite attribute to do
 such a thing (and without JavaScript?)
 
 Dan Bowling
 W: http://www.danbowling.com
 
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Re: [WSG] blockquote cite=what the?

2004-10-21 Thread Patrick H. Lauke
Daniel Bowling wrote:
shouldn't it be in a way that any reader can see
the attribution?
Of course. Unfortunately, this is a user agent issue, and no mainstream 
browser (as far as I'm aware of) exposes this attribute to the user. It 
*can* be visually displayed via CSS (:before / :after and the content 
rule), but that's not really good enough. It's similar to the issue I 
have with the longdesc attribute, which again is not really presented to 
users in any reasonable way (and prompted me to write a quick and dirty 
extension for firefox http://www.splintered.co.uk/experiments/55/ )
One can only hope that browser manufacturers/developers will take this 
on board at some point...

Patrick H. Lauke
_
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
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Re: [WSG] blockquote cite=what the?

2004-10-21 Thread Patrick H. Lauke
Clayton Lengel-Zigich wrote:
There is this format for presenting quotes
As CITEHarry S. Truman/CITE said,
Q lang=en-usThe buck stops here./Q
The problem with that (and yes, I know it's an official W3C example) is 
that it does not unequivocally link the CITE with the Q (not in the same 
way that, for instance, LABEL is linked to an INPUT or other form 
control via the FOR attribute). So the relationship between those two 
elements is really implicit, and mostly down to proximity within the 
page and the general context...

But again, one of those examples of how ambiguous and utterly flawed 
many aspects of the semantic structures in (x)html are...

Patrick H. Lauke
_
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
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RE: [WSG] blockquote cite=what the?

2004-10-21 Thread Daniel Bowling
I agree, the usefulness of an uncoupled citation is much lower than one
not specifically within the tag. What if many quotes where used near
each other inline-- huge usability concerns I would guess.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick H. Lauke
Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 1:49 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] blockquote cite=what the?

Clayton Lengel-Zigich wrote:
 There is this format for presenting quotes
 
 As CITEHarry S. Truman/CITE said,
 Q lang=en-usThe buck stops here./Q
The problem with that (and yes, I know it's an official W3C example) is 
that it does not unequivocally link the CITE with the Q (not in the same

way that, for instance, LABEL is linked to an INPUT or other form 
control via the FOR attribute). So the relationship between those two 
elements is really implicit, and mostly down to proximity within the 
page and the general context...

But again, one of those examples of how ambiguous and utterly flawed 
many aspects of the semantic structures in (x)html are...

Patrick H. Lauke
_
re*dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com

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Re: [WSG] blockquote cite=what the?

2004-10-21 Thread Clayton Lengel-Zigich
 The problem with that (and yes, I know it's an official W3C example) is
 that it does not unequivocally link the CITE with the Q (not in the same
 way that, for instance, LABEL is linked to an INPUT or other form
 control via the FOR attribute). So the relationship between those two
 elements is really implicit, and mostly down to proximity within the
 page and the general context...

That is a good point, however is there an instance where the two would
not appear to be linked when viewing the page? (e.g. a screen reader
or something)

-- 
Clayton Lengel-Zigich
http://www.lengelzigich.com
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Re: [WSG] blockquote cite=what the?

2004-10-21 Thread Patrick H. Lauke
Clayton Lengel-Zigich wrote:
That is a good point, however is there an instance where the two would
not appear to be linked when viewing the page? (e.g. a screen reader
or something)
Ok, aside from any automated harvesting tools or whatever, consider the 
scenario of a screenreader user who skips from paragraph to paragraph, 
and ends up on the second paragraph of this

pciteHarry S. Truman/cite said,
q lang=en-usThe buck stops here./q/p
...
pHe then also said qsomething else entirely/q./p
Now, assuming that the screenreader flags up that something else 
entirely is actually a quote, it still can't (programmatically) 
determine what source it's being cited from. The user will, if 
interested, start reading around the q element, but still not find out 
who the quote is from, and  will have to - in the worst case - read the 
entire document top to bottom until stumbling across the cite.

In this case, rather than the LABEL/FOR attribute idea, you'd probably 
want something more like the headers attribute in tables (or in general 
something more akin to classes that can be reused).

Admittedly, you may not encounter this type of scenario often, and it's 
maybe an extreme case I'm talking about, but still...something that just 
nags at me ;)

Patrick H. Lauke
_
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
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Re: [WSG] blockquote cite=what the?

2004-10-21 Thread Paul Connolley
Patrick H. Lauke wrote:
[snip] consider the scenario of a screenreader user who skips from 
paragraph to paragraph, and ends up on the second paragraph of this

pciteHarry S. Truman/cite said,
q lang=en-usThe buck stops here./q/p
...
pHe then also said qsomething else entirely/q./p
Now, assuming that the screenreader flags up that something else 
entirely is actually a quote, it still can't (programmatically) 
determine what source it's being cited from.
I understand where you are coming from but I believe it is a bad 
example. To me, the above would look like:

Harry S Truman said, the buck stops here.
He then also said, something else entirely.
This is a perfectly natural English language grammar. Of course writing 
for web isn't the same as print but sometimes things do pass across. If 
someone is skipping paragraph to paragraph they are likely to lose a 
little plot. I do like the way XHTML 2 is going with the quoting and 
citing.

 The user will, if interested, start reading around the q element, 
but still not find out who the quote is from, and  will have to - in 
the worst case - read the entire document top to bottom until 
stumbling across the cite.
See above. I'll reiterate that sometimes meta-information can sometimes 
invalidate good written grammar. In certain contexts, all people should 
read entire documents. If I encounter a personal pronoun within a text, 
I have to occasionally read back a few lines. Of course this is made 
even more difficult by the actual citation. Harry Truman is the source 
of the quote above, whereas it is likely to be a html or other document 
in most situations. I am not a user of a screen reader so would welcome 
any input on how they handle reading section by section. Do they have a 
function which will take them back a few sentences? I believe that a 
document design needs to stay focussed on the fact that some elements 
of a document shouldn't be hidden behind-the-scenes whilst some should 
(eg. the summary attribute now promoted to an element in the last XHTML 
2.0 draft I read). I should stop now because this is the sort of thing 
to be taken to the XHTML 2 WG list.

Admittedly, you may not encounter this type of scenario often, and 
it's maybe an extreme case I'm talking about, but still...something 
that just nags at me ;)
I am also nagged by the lack of ability that UAs give for handling the 
cite attribute in blockquote and q elements. There are ways of 
presenting the information but it is limited to non-ie browsers in most 
cases. It's a hard decision because, I don't aim to alienate my readers 
too much, but I do want the freedom to present attractive information 
to browsers which can handle it.

--
Paul Connolley
SQL/Systems Programmer
Egocentric - http://egocentric.co.uk
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Re: [WSG] blockquote cite=what the?

2004-10-21 Thread Paul Connolley
On 22 Oct 2004, at 02:23, Paul Connolley wrote:
[snip] consider the scenario of a screenreader user who skips from 
paragraph to paragraph, and ends up on the second paragraph of this
[snip a whole load more]
I'll reiterate that
I see that I reiterated nothing. I've missed a bit out that I intended 
to write. I won't bother with a correction, I hope I passed some of my 
points across.

--
Paul Connolley
SQL/Systems Programmer
Egocentric - http://egocentric.co.uk
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Re: [WSG] blockquote cite=what the?

2004-10-21 Thread Patrick H. Lauke
Paul Connolley wrote:
This is a perfectly natural English language grammar. 
Sorry, wasn't advocating changing the writing style, but having a 
mechanism in place to unequivocally tie a CITE course to Q or BLOCKQUOTE 
and have those pesky browsers actually expose that information to the 
user (with possibly user selectable preferences on how, and how often - 
once in a document for same source, for instance - to present it).

So yes, my main gripe is with browsers.
Here's hoping for some new developments on that front in the future ;)
Patrick H. Lauke
_
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[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
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Re: [WSG] blockquote cite=what the?

2004-10-21 Thread Paul Connolley
Patrick H. Lauke wrote:
Paul Connolley wrote:
This is a perfectly natural English language grammar.
Sorry, wasn't advocating changing the writing style, but having a 
mechanism in place to unequivocally tie a CITE course to Q or 
BLOCKQUOTE
My apologies also if I came across wrong. I agree with you 
wholeheartedly. I just wanted to add my 2 eurocents worth and expand a 
little on things I thought may be of interest (like the direction which 
the XHTML 2 WG is taking with some of the attributes becoming elements)

--
Paul Connolley
SQL/Systems Programmer
Egocentric - http://egocentric.co.uk
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