Re: [WSG] blockquote
Blockquote is one of those tags that was badly misused for styling purposes. Now it can only be used within a block level element, namely p. I like to use the q tag because it introduces quote marks in Firefox. I can't see what value it now has. Being a block quote you would assume it is a block element but if it requires a container it just seems to be an unnecessary layer. Wouldn't it be better to simply encase a quote in a p and give a class 'blockquote'? On 4 April 2010 03:39, T. R. Valentine trvalent...@gmail.com wrote: Apparently, blockquote/blockquote cannot be used alone. It produces 'character data is not allowed here'. What does it need? Also, can the blockquote tag have a class assigned to it? TIA -- T. R. Valentine Your friends will argue with you. Your enemies don't care. 'When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left I buy food and clothes.' -- Erasmus *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- Chris Price 0777 629 0227 follow me at http://twitter.com/hypergossip_uk and http://facebook.com/chris.t.price *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] blockquote
On 04/04/2010 10:38, Chris Price wrote: Blockquote is one of those tags that was badly misused for styling purposes. Now it can only be used within a block level element, namely p. I like to use the q tag because it introduces quote marks in Firefox. I can't see what value it now has. Being a block quote you would assume it is a block element but if it requires a container it just seems to be an unnecessary layer. Wouldn't it be better to simply encase a quote in a p and give a class 'blockquote'? blockquote allows you to pull together multiple paragraphs as part of a single quote. just having separate paragraphs with qs would just not mark them as being part of the same quote, rather than separate quotes. *if* you've only got a single-paragraph quote, this line gets blurry though. one thing blockquote does have that q doesn't is also the cite attribute (as minimally useful as it is today). P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com | http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ __ twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] blockquote
On 4 April 2010 04:38, Chris Price chris.pr...@choctaw.co.uk wrote: Blockquote is one of those tags that was badly misused for styling purposes. Now it can only be used within a block level element, namely p. I like to use the q tag because it introduces quote marks in Firefox. I do a lot of academic-style essays where extended quotations are common. From a semantic POV, blockquote makes a lot of sense -- but extended quotes in block form obviate the need for quotation marks. I can't see what value it now has. Semantic value, for sure. Being a block quote you would assume it is a block element but if it requires a container it just seems to be an unnecessary layer. ISTM the unnecessary layer is the block element within the blockquote. I consider the use of a div element within the blockquote to be approaching 'divitis'. Wouldn't it be better to simply encase a quote in a p and give a class 'blockquote'? Blockquotes are not supposed to have quotation marks. -- T. R. Valentine Your friends will argue with you. Your enemies don't care. 'When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left I buy food and clothes.' -- Erasmus *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] blockquote
On 4/4/10 2:53 AM, Patrick H. Lauke wrote: ... one thing blockquote does have that q doesn't is also the cite attribute (as minimally useful as it is today). I believe that Q elements do allow the cite attribute. But, as you say, this is rarely useful. Q may be more useful when writing in more than one language, as you get language-appropriate quote marks. OTOH I find BLOCKQUOTE very useful, especially as many quotes I use are multiple paragraphs. YMMV. Cordially, David -- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] blockquote
At 4/3/2010 07:39 PM, T. R. Valentine wrote: Apparently, blockquote/blockquote cannot be used alone. It produces 'character data is not allowed here'. What does it need? Check the spec: HTML 4.01 Specification 9 Text 9.2 Structured text 9.2.2 Quotations: The BLOCKQUOTE and Q elements http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/text.html#h-9.2.2 !ELEMENT BLOCKQUOTE - - (%block;|SCRIPT)+ -- long quotation -- This excerpt from the Document Type Declaration specifies that the only children of blockquote permitted are block-type elements and script. In other words, text within the blockquote element must be enclosed in a p, div, list, or other block-type element. Also, can the blockquote tag have a class assigned to it? Let's find out. From the above reference: !ATTLIST BLOCKQUOTE %attrs; -- %coreattrs, %i18n, %events -- cite%URI; #IMPLIED -- URI for source document or msg -- This specifies which attributes blockquote may have. The symbol %attrs is defined as: !ENTITY % attrs %coreattrs; %i18n; %events; ...%coreattrs in turn is defined as: !ENTITY % coreattrs id ID #IMPLIED -- document-wide unique id -- class CDATA #IMPLIED -- space-separated list of classes -- style %StyleSheet; #IMPLIED -- associated style info -- title %Text; #IMPLIED -- advisory title -- So yes, you may validly assign a class attribute to a blockquote element. Regards, Paul __ Paul Novitski Juniper Webcraft Ltd. http://juniperwebcraft.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] blockquote
Hi T. R., You wrote: Apparently, blockquote/blockquote cannot be used alone. It produces 'character data is not allowed here'. What does it need? I think I've seen this before and put my text inside a p block inside the blockquote to solve the problem. Also, can the blockquote tag have a class assigned to it? Once you've got a correct (no error / complaint from your favorite checker) give it a try and let us know how it works out--I've only used one style of blockquote at a time and so I usually just style the blockquote directly. -- Gene Falck gfa...@merr.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] blockquote
On 3 April 2010 22:26, Gene Falck gfa...@merr.com wrote: Hi T. R., You wrote: Apparently, blockquote/blockquote cannot be used alone. It produces 'character data is not allowed here'. What does it need? I think I've seen this before and put my text inside a p block inside the blockquote to solve the problem. I tried this, but apparently some of the css for the p block was royally fouling up the blockquotes. But Paul's answer that it could be done with a div was perfect. Added a div for each blockquote and -- voila! -- validation without messing up the layout. Also, can the blockquote tag have a class assigned to it? Once you've got a correct (no error / complaint from your favorite checker) give it a try and let us know how it works out--I've only used one style of blockquote at a time and so I usually just style the blockquote directly. It can. Usually, a blockquote will be following by a new paragraph, but sometimes the paragraph continues so I wanted to close up the space between the last paragraph (blockquote and div) of the block and the following p. Using an adjacent sibling selector solved that nicely. Thanks for all the information. -- T. R. Valentine Your friends will argue with you. Your enemies don't care. 'When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left I buy food and clothes.' -- Erasmus *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Blockquote
James Jeffery wrote: Thanks for the heads up guys. I know how to use blockquote, that's not an issue, but I'm wondering if using cite would be worth it. I won't be storing the URL from the original page. If I did citing the orig. page that could get me into a while lot of trouble if I am mirroring/scraping/*stealing* quotes from certain sites. Hence why I do not want to cite the original site. I'm not sure I understand you correctly. Are you saying that your are infringing on copyright and are worried that citing the source will get you caught? If so, you're trying to solve the wrong problem and should be seeking to license the content or otherwise use it within the constraints of the law. -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Blockquote
Yes I don't think this is the place to ask advise on illegal matters. Scraping content from websites that you do not have permission from is copyright infringement. The fact that you don't want to cite the original source inidcates to me that you are building this site for some financial gain - whether that is to get exposure, advertising revenue or other means. Respect the content owners, ask for their permission to use the content!! - Original Message - From: David Dorward da...@dorward.me.uk To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 8:42 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Blockquote James Jeffery wrote: Thanks for the heads up guys. I know how to use blockquote, that's not an issue, but I'm wondering if using cite would be worth it. I won't be storing the URL from the original page. If I did citing the orig. page that could get me into a while lot of trouble if I am mirroring/scraping/*stealing* quotes from certain sites. Hence why I do not want to cite the original site. I'm not sure I understand you correctly. Are you saying that your are infringing on copyright and are worried that citing the source will get you caught? If so, you're trying to solve the wrong problem and should be seeking to license the content or otherwise use it within the constraints of the law. -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] Blockquote
Bringing it all back to the core question: cite is an optional attribute, so can be omitted when using the blockquote element. P Patrick H. Lauke Web Editor Enterprise Development University of Salford Room 113, Faraday House Salford, Greater Manchester M5 4WT UK T +44 (0) 161 295 4779 webmas...@salford.ac.uk www.salford.ac.uk A GREATER MANCHESTER UNIVERSITY *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Blockquote
This is the Internet mate, the site owners of the sites I'm to be scraping use the same methods. If I was to cite that site it would be wrong anyway because they don't even own all the content. If there is a financial gain, why sit back and let someone else gain from it? I know a guy that does the same with a lyrics site and makes roughly £14,000 a year in Adsense. It has to be done. On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 9:08 AM, Adam Martin ajmartin...@gmail.com wrote: Yes I don't think this is the place to ask advise on illegal matters. Scraping content from websites that you do not have permission from is copyright infringement. The fact that you don't want to cite the original source inidcates to me that you are building this site for some financial gain - whether that is to get exposure, advertising revenue or other means. Respect the content owners, ask for their permission to use the content!! - Original Message - From: David Dorward da...@dorward.me.uk To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 8:42 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Blockquote James Jeffery wrote: Thanks for the heads up guys. I know how to use blockquote, that's not an issue, but I'm wondering if using cite would be worth it. I won't be storing the URL from the original page. If I did citing the orig. page that could get me into a while lot of trouble if I am mirroring/scraping/*stealing* quotes from certain sites. Hence why I do not want to cite the original site. I'm not sure I understand you correctly. Are you saying that your are infringing on copyright and are worried that citing the source will get you caught? If so, you're trying to solve the wrong problem and should be seeking to license the content or otherwise use it within the constraints of the law. -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Blockquote
last comment I will make on the matter - but theft is theft, because someone else does it does not change the law... nor does the media that you use.. the Internet still operates within the laws of the country where you conduct business. James Jeffery wrote: This is the Internet mate, the site owners of the sites I'm to be scraping use the same methods. If I was to cite that site it would be wrong anyway because they don't even own all the content. If there is a financial gain, why sit back and let someone else gain from it? I know a guy that does the same with a lyrics site and makes roughly £14,000 a year in Adsense. It has to be done. On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 9:08 AM, Adam Martin ajmartin.nz http://ajmartin.nz@gmail.com http://gmail.com wrote: Yes I don't think this is the place to ask advise on illegal matters. Scraping content from websites that you do not have permission from is copyright infringement. The fact that you don't want to cite the original source inidcates to me that you are building this site for some financial gain - whether that is to get exposure, advertising revenue or other means. Respect the content owners, ask for their permission to use the content!! - Original Message - From: David Dorward da...@dorward.me.uk mailto:da...@dorward.me.uk To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org mailto:wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 8:42 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Blockquote James Jeffery wrote: Thanks for the heads up guys. I know how to use blockquote, that's not an issue, but I'm wondering if using cite would be worth it. I won't be storing the URL from the original page. If I did citing the orig. page that could get me into a while lot of trouble if I am mirroring/scraping/*stealing* quotes from certain sites. Hence why I do not want to cite the original site. I'm not sure I understand you correctly. Are you saying that your are infringing on copyright and are worried that citing the source will get you caught? If so, you're trying to solve the wrong problem and should be seeking to license the content or otherwise use it within the constraints of the law. -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org mailto:memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org mailto:memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Blockquote
On Jan 8, 2009, at 8:49 AM, Adam Martin wrote: but theft is theft, because someone else does it does not change the law... indeed... but I'm losing track of what exactly this has to do with standards? Andrew *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Blockquote
It doesn't. I was supposed to email off list. Back to the question. On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 1:58 PM, Andrew Maben and...@andrewmaben.com wrote: On Jan 8, 2009, at 8:49 AM, Adam Martin wrote: but theft is theft, because someone else does it does not change the law... indeed... but I'm losing track of what exactly this has to do with standards? Andrew *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] Blockquote
I'm developing a site. A quote site infact. For the quotes I think it's wise to use blockquote ... but, the quotes are being scraped from other sites so how would I cite them? Could I use a wiki url for the author? And what if the author is unknown or has no wiki page. Do I *need* to include the cite attribute? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] Blockquote
... but, the quotes are being scraped from other sites so how would I cite them? I thought the cite attribute was the URL of the original page the quote came from. For example (from http://htmlhelp.com/reference/html40/block/blockquote.html): BLOCKQUOTE CITE=http://www.bibliomania.com/Fiction/joyce/ulysses/telemac.html; PHe pointed his finger in friendly jest and went over to the parapet, laughing to himself. Stephen Dedalus stepped up, followed him wearily half way and sat down on the edge of the gunrest, watching him still as he propped his mirror on the parapet, dipped the brush in the bowl and lathered cheeks and neck./P PBuck Mulligan's gay voice went on./P BLOCKQUOTEPMy name is absurd too: Malachi Mulligan, two dactyls. But it has a Hellenic ring, hasn't it? Tripping and sunny like the buck himself. We must go to Athens. Will you come if I can get the aunt to fork out twenty quid?/P/BLOCKQUOTE /BLOCKQUOTE Since you are scraping the site you should have the URL. Best regards, Kepler Gelotte Neighbor Webmaster, Inc. 156 Normandy Dr., Piscataway, NJ 08854 http://www.neighborwebmaster.com www.neighborwebmaster.com phone/fax: (732) 302-0904 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***BEGIN:VCARD VERSION:2.1 N:Gelotte;Kepler;;Mr. FN:Kepler Gelotte (kep...@neighborwebmaster.com) ORG:Neighbor Webmaster TITLE:Web Designer TEL;WORK;VOICE:(732) 302-0904 TEL;WORK;FAX:(732) 302-0904 ADR;WORK:;;156 Normandy Dr;Piscataway;NJ;08854;United States of America LABEL;WORK;ENCODING=QUOTED-PRINTABLE:156 Normandy Dr=0D=0APiscataway, NJ 08854=0D=0AUnited States of America URL;WORK:http://www.neighborwebmaster.com EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:kep...@neighborwebmaster.com REV:20070415T052107Z END:VCARD
Re: [WSG] Blockquote
Hi James, quotes are being scraped from other sites how would I cite them? Something like this might work well: blockquote cite=http://site.com/quotesource; pQuoted text goes here./p pcitea href=http://site.com/quotedperson;Quoted Person/a/cite/p /blockquote The link within the cite element is optional, they may be the same or different as shown, and the cite attribute itself is optional, used only when the quote, as you say, is scraped from another site. :) Hope that helps. Cheers. Mike Cherim http://green-beast.com - Original Message - From: James Jeffery jamesjeffery@googlemail.com To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 5:58 PM Subject: [WSG] Blockquote I'm developing a site. A quote site infact. For the quotes I think it's wise to use blockquote ... but, the quotes are being scraped from other sites so how would I cite them? Could I use a wiki url for the author? And what if the author is unknown or has no wiki page. Do I *need* to include the cite attribute? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Blockquote
2009/1/8 James Jeffery jamesjeffery@googlemail.com I'm developing a site. A quote site infact. For the quotes I think it's wise to use blockquote ... but, the quotes are being scraped from other sites so how would I cite them? Could I use a wiki url for the author? And what if the author is unknown or has no wiki page. Do I *need* to include the cite attribute? While the cite attribute isn't mandatory, your scenario actually solves its own problem. You can put in the URL you got the quote from. The cite attribute is set up for that sort of usage: cite = uri [CT] The value of this attribute is a URI that designates a source document or message. This attribute is intended to give information about the source from which the quotation was borrowed. http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/text.html#h-9.2.2 If you wanted to visibly show the actual author/quote source (ie. who said it, not where you got it) then you could include the name in a cite. eg. blockquote cite= http://www.rtnda.org/pages/media_items/edward-r.-murrow-speech998.php; pThis instrument can teach, it can illuminate; yes, and it can even inspire. But it can do so only to the extent that humans are determined to use it to those ends. Otherwise it is merely wires and lights in a box. There is a great and perhaps decisive battle to be fought against ignorance, intolerance and indifference. This weapon of television could be useful./p pciteEdward R. Murrow/cite, RTNDA Convention Speech, October 15 1958/p /blockquote cheers, Ben -- --- http://weblog.200ok.com.au/ --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Blockquote
,,,and the cite attribute itself is optional, used only when the quote, as you say, is scraped from another site. :) The cite attribute is poorly supported by most browsers, in the sense that they don't do anything with it. However, you can use a CSS attribute selector and CSS generated content to display its value on your page. I'm not a CSS expert, so I can't code it up, but perhaps someone else will do it if you're interested. Chris *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Blockquote
Thanks for the heads up guys. I know how to use blockquote, that's not an issue, but I'm wondering if using cite would be worth it. I won't be storing the URL from the original page. If I did citing the orig. page that could get me into a while lot of trouble if I am mirroring/scraping/*stealing* quotes from certain sites. Hence why I do not want to cite the original site. Any advances on the problem? If I could leave the cite out, without it causing an issue then I would. I was going to use a p, but an uncited blockquote would be more semantic than a p I felt. On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 12:33 AM, Chris Cressman ch...@chriscressman.comwrote: ,,,and the cite attribute itself is optional, used only when the quote, as you say, is scraped from another site. :) The cite attribute is poorly supported by most browsers, in the sense that they don't do anything with it. However, you can use a CSS attribute selector and CSS generated content to display its value on your page. I'm not a CSS expert, so I can't code it up, but perhaps someone else will do it if you're interested. Chris *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] BLOCKQUOTE Problem
All right, this is probably a less than gripping question and more pertinent to academic writing. Nonetheless. The blockquote element requires that it enclose block level elements--in my case usually a p. Since blockquotes are usually in a run of text (#content p), it picks up the content p's line-height. But a blockquote, typographically speaking, should have a reduced line-height to differentiate it from the other paragraphs in the text. (Besides, a blockquote with standard paragraph line-height looks ukky.) Here I run afoul of the cascade unless I use a span; #blockquote p will not work because of the #content p rule. First, is there another, better way of accomplishing reducing the line-height in a blockquote other than using a span? Second, will I be a CSS Night Patrol target if I use a span to reduce the line-height? Thank you, Paula Paula Petrik Professor Department of History Art History Associate Director Center for History New Media George Mason University http://www.archiva.net ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] BLOCKQUOTE Problem
Why are you using #blockquote? You can target paragraphs et al within a blockquote with descending selectors: blockquote p, blockquote a, blockquote cite, etc. I'm getting a bit tired of my over the top blockquotes: http://www.tdrake.net/durward-and-the-rocket/ But I have messed with some of the styles already. I then used the edit-css tool in the web developer toolbar and started playing around with blockquote p {font-size:85%, line-height:1.1em; color:silver;...} and it worked like a charm. What is a link to your problem page? Ted -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paula Petrik Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 1:40 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] BLOCKQUOTE Problem All right, this is probably a less than gripping question and more pertinent to academic writing. Nonetheless. The blockquote element requires that it enclose block level elements--in my case usually a p. Since blockquotes are usually in a run of text (#content p), it picks up the content p's line-height. But a blockquote, typographically speaking, should have a reduced line-height to differentiate it from the other paragraphs in the text. (Besides, a blockquote with standard paragraph line-height looks ukky.) Here I run afoul of the cascade unless I use a span; #blockquote p will not work because of the #content p rule. First, is there another, better way of accomplishing reducing the line-height in a blockquote other than using a span? Second, will I be a CSS Night Patrol target if I use a span to reduce the line-height? Thank you, Paula Paula Petrik Professor Department of History Art History Associate Director Center for History New Media George Mason University http://www.archiva.net ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] BLOCKQUOTE Problem
At 01:39 PM 1/28/2006, Paula Petrik wrote: The blockquote element requires that it enclose block level elements--in my case usually a p. Since blockquotes are usually in a run of text (#content p), it picks up the content p's line-height. But a blockquote, typographically speaking, should have a reduced line-height to differentiate it from the other paragraphs in the text. (Besides, a blockquote with standard paragraph line-height looks ukky.) Here I run afoul of the cascade unless I use a span; #blockquote p will not work because of the #content p rule. First, is there another, better way of accomplishing reducing the line-height in a blockquote other than using a span? Second, will I be a CSS Night Patrol target if I use a span to reduce the line-height? Paula, You could use spans, I'm sure with few untoward consequences, however it's probably not necessary to risk even minor bodily injury. The CSS selector #blockquote p wouldn't be right unless your markup included: sometag id=blockquote which I assume is not the case. Drop the # and you're probably OK. (It's always a good idea to post a demo page where we can see your exact markup, however:) Assuming that this is your markup: div id=content pBlah de blah/p blockquote pSignificant quotatation/p /blockquote /div Then these rules should apply: #content p { /* rules for paragraphs */ } #content blockquote p { /* rules for paragraphs within blockquotes */ } The latter rule has greater specificity, so it should successfully overrule the former. For a fun read, try: CCS 2.1: 6.4.3 Calculating a selector's specificity http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/cascade.html#specificity Regards, Paul ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] BLOCKQUOTE Problem (Solved)
Paul Ted, Many thanks! What was I thinking? And why did I make that thoughtless typing error--#blockquote? Best, Paula Paula Petrik Paula Petrik Professor Department of History Art History Associate Director Center for History New Media George Mason University http://www.archiva.net On Jan 28, 2006, at 5:20 PM, Ted Drake wrote: Why are you using #blockquote? You can target paragraphs et al within a blockquote with descending selectors: blockquote p, blockquote a, blockquote cite, etc. I'm getting a bit tired of my over the top blockquotes: http://www.tdrake.net/durward-and-the-rocket/ But I have messed with some of the styles already. I then used the edit-css tool in the web developer toolbar and started playing around with blockquote p {font-size:85%, line-height:1.1em; color:silver;...} and it worked like a charm. What is a link to your problem page? Ted -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paula Petrik Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 1:40 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] BLOCKQUOTE Problem All right, this is probably a less than gripping question and more pertinent to academic writing. Nonetheless. The blockquote element requires that it enclose block level elements--in my case usually a p. Since blockquotes are usually in a run of text (#content p), it picks up the content p's line-height. But a blockquote, typographically speaking, should have a reduced line-height to differentiate it from the other paragraphs in the text. (Besides, a blockquote with standard paragraph line-height looks ukky.) Here I run afoul of the cascade unless I use a span; #blockquote p will not work because of the #content p rule. First, is there another, better way of accomplishing reducing the line-height in a blockquote other than using a span? Second, will I be a CSS Night Patrol target if I use a span to reduce the line-height? Thank you, Paula Paula Petrik Professor Department of History Art History Associate Director Center for History New Media George Mason University http://www.archiva.net ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] blockquote in screen viewer!
Lynx is text-only in the really old computer sense of the word. It can't display italics, only different text colors and background colors. This isn't a problem though. Displaying blockquotes as indented italics is just a popular way for graphical browsers to display them by default. It's not required or anything. If having your blockquotes in italics is important for the way you want your site to look, I recommend specifying that in your CSS. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] blockquote in screen viewer!
Hi, It seems that screen viewer doesn't show blockquote' content in italic. Is this supposed to be or I got the markup wrong. this is the page (in Chinese): http://www.whpsy.com/synth/view/04113002.htm The blockquotes are in light olive background within the p tags. /* Please ignore all validation errors. Italic looks awful in Chinese so it doesn't set to - Strictly speaking, there is no Italic this sort of thing in Chinese text, that means if you ever see site in Chinese that use Italic font, it's a borrowed from English. */ And an English page I was comparing. /* I am curious as to why it doesn't show italic in screen viewer */ http://www.gordonmac.com/testing/GMV20/ when view in lxyn screen viewer, the texts in the blockquote are not italic. http://www.yellowpipe.com/yis/tools/lynx/lynx_viewer.php Thanks in advance for enlightenment. tee ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Blockquote or Q?
Apologies for being a bit slow on the uptake but the always informative Roger Johansson (456bereastreet) has this useful article [1] which supports what's been said and provides useful links to the HTML4 spec. James [1] http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200411/quotations_and_citations_quoting_text/ http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200411/quotations_and_citations_quoting_text/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Blockquote or Q?
Actually, the requirement for having p (or whatever) in your blockquotes is sort of a weird one, IMHO. I believe they've planned to remove that from xhtml2, but in your case it makes sense anyways. --- Cole Kuryakin - x7m [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've inserted a bunch of brs within the quote in order to control the line breaks of each quote. Just a design thing. Is this really a no, no or would this be permissable? Cole No. It's not a 'no,no', but how important is it that there is a line break after seldom and books? The problem with using br is that when I scale the page larger, it messes everything up. I think you can acheive the same effect by just using the overflow to make new lines and then it scales nicer. __ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Blockquote or Q?
Thanks for your input. I sorta figured br's weren't forbidden fruit within blockquotep but I just wanted to ask. how important is it that there is a line break after seldom and books? Well, hum, okay. You're right, It's not that important. I come from 26 years in print design (only the past 3 on web projects) and it's been difficult for me to let go of the near manical control I've been able to wield over past print projects (oh, no! the logo's off by a millimeter!!). Sometimes I still struggle with it - like how those lines break in the quote. Silly. However, I'm happy to report that most of my designs do turn out the way I want them, as well as validate (XHTML and CSS). If I can't get the visual to work...and the code to validate...I'll re-work it until I know I can produce it to standards. Anyway, thanks for the how important is it? remark. Sometimes I need to be reminded. I'll take a stab at overflow - never used it before - instead of the brs. Cole - Original Message - From: Mr Bean [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 10:54 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Blockquote or Q? Actually, the requirement for having p (or whatever) in your blockquotes is sort of a weird one, IMHO. I believe they've planned to remove that from xhtml2, but in your case it makes sense anyways. --- Cole Kuryakin - x7m [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've inserted a bunch of brs within the quote in order to control the line breaks of each quote. Just a design thing. Is this really a no, no or would this be permissable? Cole No. It's not a 'no,no', but The problem with using br is that when I scale the page larger, it messes everything up. I think you can acheive the same effect by just using the overflow to make new lines and then it scales nicer. __ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Blockquote or Q?
Hi everyone. I'm working on a site that contains 1 boxed quote per page. By boxed, I mean there's a red border that encloses the quote. These aren't famouse quotes - or anything particulary special -just quotes from people who have read the pre-release of a new book. So, semantically speaking, should I be using Blockquote or Q tags? I don't think Cite is appropriate, and I'm not sure about Q either as I've read that Q should be used for quotations within a block of inline text. I'm leaning toward blockquote (stripping the indention via css), but I wanted to throw this question out and see if anyone had a strong opinion about this matter as it pertains to this particular project. Sample test page is here: http://www.x7m.us/_clients/danielik/dev/testing/index.htm Thanks to all in advance, Cole
Re: [WSG] Blockquote or Q?
On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 20:40:53 +0800, Cole Kuryakin - x7m wrote: So, semantically speaking, should I be using Blockquote or Q tags? Blockquote, I beleive - you're correct in that q is meant for inline eg psome text qwhat he said/q more text./p I normally start my css file with * { margin: 0; padding: 0; } anyway which would already have stripped the blockquote indenting :) Lea ~ looking for a perm. position in Brisbane. Contact me for CV. -- Lea de Groot Elysian Systems - I Understand the Internet http://elysiansystems.com/ Search Engine Optimisation, Usability, Information Architecture, Web Design Brisbane, Australia ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Blockquote or Q?
In writing (like not-web writing) there is a thing were quotes that are just are just a few lines are written in the normal flow of the text; however, if a quote is more than 3-4 lines it is separate and indented (about .5' on each side, but it depends on whose rules you use). Anyways that is what blockquote was meant to refer to. I your situation I would use div id='sidebar' blockquote pI am seldom attracted to books of this genre.p pThis author was recommended by a friend, and I couldn't put it down!/p /blockquote cite Cole Kuryakinbr San Francisco /cite /div The only issue with the blockquote is that it can't contain plain text, it has to be in a p or something, but if you don't like the extra margin the p gives, you can just do blockquote p{margin:0} in the css Alan Lea de Groot wrote: On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 20:40:53 +0800, Cole Kuryakin - x7m wrote: So, semantically speaking, should I be using Blockquote or Q tags? Blockquote, I beleive - you're correct in that q is meant for inline eg psome text qwhat he said/q more text./p I normally start my css file with * { margin: 0; padding: 0; } anyway which would already have stripped the blockquote indenting :) Lea ~ looking for a perm. position in Brisbane. Contact me for CV. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Blockquote or Q?
Hi Cole, Blockquote for sure, and like Alan suggest, make use of normal tags inside. And let me give you a nice trick to insert language specific quotemarks : If you declare the language in your HTML tag likehtml lang="fr-ca" ... you can define inside your CSS what kind of quote mark to insertbefore and after yourblockquote, so then you do not have to manually insert those quote marks and forget about them:) blockquote:lang(fr-ca) { quotes: " «" " »" " " " "; } blockquote:before { content: open-quote; } blockquote:after { content: close-quote; }As you can see an exemple at http://www.echo3d.com/faq/Later,Hugues BrunelleConcepteur graphique//ECHO tridimension2139 rue MassonMontréal QC H2H 1A81-(514)5211360[EMAIL PROTECTED] From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cole Kuryakin - x7mSent: April 19, 2005 07:41To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: [WSG] Blockquote or Q? Hi everyone. I'm working on a site that contains 1 boxed quote per page. By boxed, I mean there's a red border that encloses the quote. These aren't famouse quotes - or anything particulary special -just quotes from people who have read the pre-release of a new book. So, semantically speaking, should I be using Blockquote or Q tags? I don't think Cite is appropriate, and I'm not sure about Q either as I've read that Q should be used for quotations within a block of inline text. I'm leaning toward blockquote (stripping the indention via css), but I wanted to throw this question out and see if anyone had a strong opinion about this matter as it pertains to this particular project. Sample test page is here: http://www.x7m.us/_clients/danielik/dev/testing/index.htm Thanks to all in advance, Cole
Re[2]: [WSG] Blockquote or Q?
Hugues, HB Blockquote for sure, and like Alan suggest, make use of normal tags inside. HB And let me give you a nice trick to insert language specific quotemarks : HB If you declare the language in your HTML tag like html lang=fr-ca ... HB you can define inside your CSS what kind of quote mark to insert before and HB after your blockquote, so then you do not have to manually insert those HB quote marks and forget about them :) What about IE? This doesn't work in IE. You could of cause do some magic trickery with JavaScript, but what about users without CSS and/or JavaScript? I would prefer your way, but I don't think that is already usable nowadays. Martin ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: Re[2]: [WSG] Blockquote or Q?
You're right. And I would not call any fixes with javascript. So like everything, you can decide to use these CSS declarations or not :) Hugues -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Martin Heiden Sent: April 19, 2005 09:59 To: Hugues Brunelle Subject: Re[2]: [WSG] Blockquote or Q? Hugues, HB Blockquote for sure, and like Alan suggest, make use of normal tags inside. HB And let me give you a nice trick to insert language specific quotemarks : HB If you declare the language in your HTML tag like html lang=fr-ca HB ... you can define inside your CSS what kind of quote mark to HB insert before and after your blockquote, so then you do not have to HB manually insert those quote marks and forget about them :) What about IE? This doesn't work in IE. You could of cause do some magic trickery with JavaScript, but what about users without CSS and/or JavaScript? I would prefer your way, but I don't think that is already usable nowadays. Martin ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Blockquote or Q?
On 4/19/05, Alan Trick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anyways that is what blockquote was meant to refer to. I your situation I would use div id='sidebar' blockquote pI am seldom attracted to books of this genre.p pThis author was recommended by a friend, and I couldn't put it down!/p /blockquote cite Cole Kuryakinbr San Francisco /cite /div The only issue with the blockquote is that it can't contain plain text, it has to be in a p or something, but if you don't like the extra margin the p gives, you can just do Should the cite be outside the blockquote? or should it be inside? or either? i.e. blockquoteptext/p/blockquotecitetext/cite or blockquoteptext/pcitetext/cite/blockquote Ben.
Re: [WSG] Blockquote or Q?
Hughes - That is a neat trick. Thanks for sharing! Cole - Original Message - From: Hugues Brunelle To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 11:11 PM Subject: RE: [WSG] Blockquote or Q? Hi Cole, Blockquote for sure, and like Alan suggest, make use of normal tags inside. And let me give you a nice trick to insert language specific quotemarks : If you declare the language in your HTML tag likehtml lang="fr-ca" ... you can define inside your CSS what kind of quote mark to insertbefore and after yourblockquote, so then you do not have to manually insert those quote marks and forget about them:) blockquote:lang(fr-ca) { quotes: " «" " »" " " " "; } blockquote:before { content: open-quote; } blockquote:after { content: close-quote; }As you can see an exemple at http://www.echo3d.com/faq/Later,Hugues BrunelleConcepteur graphique//ECHO tridimension2139 rue MassonMontréal QC H2H 1A81-(514)5211360[EMAIL PROTECTED] From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cole Kuryakin - x7mSent: April 19, 2005 07:41To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: [WSG] Blockquote or Q? Hi everyone. I'm working on a site that contains 1 boxed quote per page. By boxed, I mean there's a red border that encloses the quote. These aren't famouse quotes - or anything particulary special -just quotes from people who have read the pre-release of a new book. So, semantically speaking, should I be using Blockquote or Q tags? I don't think Cite is appropriate, and I'm not sure about Q either as I've read that Q should be used for quotations within a block of inline text. I'm leaning toward blockquote (stripping the indention via css), but I wanted to throw this question out and see if anyone had a strong opinion about this matter as it pertains to this particular project. Sample test page is here: http://www.x7m.us/_clients/danielik/dev/testing/index.htm Thanks to all in advance, Cole
Re: [WSG] Blockquote or Q?
Alan - Thanks for the clarification. I didn't know that you had to (were suppose to) surround text tags with the blockquote - but now I know! One follow-on: As you could see on the like I provided, I've inserted a bunch of brs within the quote in order to control the line breaks of each quote. Just a design thing. Is this really a no, no or would this be permissable? Cole - Original Message - From: Alan Trick [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 9:43 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Blockquote or Q? In writing (like not-web writing) there is a thing were quotes that are just are just a few lines are written in the normal flow of the text; however, if a quote is more than 3-4 lines it is separate and indented (about .5' on each side, but it depends on whose rules you use). Anyways that is what blockquote was meant to refer to. I your situation I would use div id='sidebar' blockquote pI am seldom attracted to books of this genre.p pThis author was recommended by a friend, and I couldn't put it down!/p /blockquote cite Cole Kuryakinbr San Francisco /cite /div The only issue with the blockquote is that it can't contain plain text, it has to be in a p or something, but if you don't like the extra margin the p gives, you can just do blockquote p{margin:0} in the css Alan Lea de Groot wrote: On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 20:40:53 +0800, Cole Kuryakin - x7m wrote: So, semantically speaking, should I be using Blockquote or Q tags? Blockquote, I beleive - you're correct in that q is meant for inline eg psome text qwhat he said/q more text./p I normally start my css file with * { margin: 0; padding: 0; } anyway which would already have stripped the blockquote indenting :) Lea ~ looking for a perm. position in Brisbane. Contact me for CV. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] blockquote cite=what the?
Ok, I consider myself fairly savvy in XHTML, but for the life of me I can't figure out what the cite attribute of blockquote is really good for if it doesn't display to the end user. If you are quoting something that needs to be cited, shouldn't it be in a way that any reader can see the attribution? Is there a logical, semantic, way to utilize the cite attribute to do such a thing (and without JavaScript?) Dan Bowling W: http://www.danbowling.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] blockquote cite=what the?
There is this format for presenting quotes As CITEHarry S. Truman/CITE said, Q lang=en-usThe buck stops here./Q More info here : http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/struct/text.html#edef-CITE On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 10:57:09 -0500, Daniel Bowling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ok, I consider myself fairly savvy in XHTML, but for the life of me I can't figure out what the cite attribute of blockquote is really good for if it doesn't display to the end user. If you are quoting something that needs to be cited, shouldn't it be in a way that any reader can see the attribution? Is there a logical, semantic, way to utilize the cite attribute to do such a thing (and without JavaScript?) Dan Bowling W: http://www.danbowling.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- Clayton Lengel-Zigich http://www.lengelzigich.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] blockquote cite=what the?
Daniel Bowling wrote: shouldn't it be in a way that any reader can see the attribution? Of course. Unfortunately, this is a user agent issue, and no mainstream browser (as far as I'm aware of) exposes this attribute to the user. It *can* be visually displayed via CSS (:before / :after and the content rule), but that's not really good enough. It's similar to the issue I have with the longdesc attribute, which again is not really presented to users in any reasonable way (and prompted me to write a quick and dirty extension for firefox http://www.splintered.co.uk/experiments/55/ ) One can only hope that browser manufacturers/developers will take this on board at some point... Patrick H. Lauke _ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] blockquote cite=what the?
Clayton Lengel-Zigich wrote: There is this format for presenting quotes As CITEHarry S. Truman/CITE said, Q lang=en-usThe buck stops here./Q The problem with that (and yes, I know it's an official W3C example) is that it does not unequivocally link the CITE with the Q (not in the same way that, for instance, LABEL is linked to an INPUT or other form control via the FOR attribute). So the relationship between those two elements is really implicit, and mostly down to proximity within the page and the general context... But again, one of those examples of how ambiguous and utterly flawed many aspects of the semantic structures in (x)html are... Patrick H. Lauke _ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] blockquote cite=what the?
I agree, the usefulness of an uncoupled citation is much lower than one not specifically within the tag. What if many quotes where used near each other inline-- huge usability concerns I would guess. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick H. Lauke Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 1:49 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] blockquote cite=what the? Clayton Lengel-Zigich wrote: There is this format for presenting quotes As CITEHarry S. Truman/CITE said, Q lang=en-usThe buck stops here./Q The problem with that (and yes, I know it's an official W3C example) is that it does not unequivocally link the CITE with the Q (not in the same way that, for instance, LABEL is linked to an INPUT or other form control via the FOR attribute). So the relationship between those two elements is really implicit, and mostly down to proximity within the page and the general context... But again, one of those examples of how ambiguous and utterly flawed many aspects of the semantic structures in (x)html are... Patrick H. Lauke _ re*dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] blockquote cite=what the?
The problem with that (and yes, I know it's an official W3C example) is that it does not unequivocally link the CITE with the Q (not in the same way that, for instance, LABEL is linked to an INPUT or other form control via the FOR attribute). So the relationship between those two elements is really implicit, and mostly down to proximity within the page and the general context... That is a good point, however is there an instance where the two would not appear to be linked when viewing the page? (e.g. a screen reader or something) -- Clayton Lengel-Zigich http://www.lengelzigich.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] blockquote cite=what the?
Clayton Lengel-Zigich wrote: That is a good point, however is there an instance where the two would not appear to be linked when viewing the page? (e.g. a screen reader or something) Ok, aside from any automated harvesting tools or whatever, consider the scenario of a screenreader user who skips from paragraph to paragraph, and ends up on the second paragraph of this pciteHarry S. Truman/cite said, q lang=en-usThe buck stops here./q/p ... pHe then also said qsomething else entirely/q./p Now, assuming that the screenreader flags up that something else entirely is actually a quote, it still can't (programmatically) determine what source it's being cited from. The user will, if interested, start reading around the q element, but still not find out who the quote is from, and will have to - in the worst case - read the entire document top to bottom until stumbling across the cite. In this case, rather than the LABEL/FOR attribute idea, you'd probably want something more like the headers attribute in tables (or in general something more akin to classes that can be reused). Admittedly, you may not encounter this type of scenario often, and it's maybe an extreme case I'm talking about, but still...something that just nags at me ;) Patrick H. Lauke _ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] blockquote cite=what the?
Patrick H. Lauke wrote: [snip] consider the scenario of a screenreader user who skips from paragraph to paragraph, and ends up on the second paragraph of this pciteHarry S. Truman/cite said, q lang=en-usThe buck stops here./q/p ... pHe then also said qsomething else entirely/q./p Now, assuming that the screenreader flags up that something else entirely is actually a quote, it still can't (programmatically) determine what source it's being cited from. I understand where you are coming from but I believe it is a bad example. To me, the above would look like: Harry S Truman said, the buck stops here. He then also said, something else entirely. This is a perfectly natural English language grammar. Of course writing for web isn't the same as print but sometimes things do pass across. If someone is skipping paragraph to paragraph they are likely to lose a little plot. I do like the way XHTML 2 is going with the quoting and citing. The user will, if interested, start reading around the q element, but still not find out who the quote is from, and will have to - in the worst case - read the entire document top to bottom until stumbling across the cite. See above. I'll reiterate that sometimes meta-information can sometimes invalidate good written grammar. In certain contexts, all people should read entire documents. If I encounter a personal pronoun within a text, I have to occasionally read back a few lines. Of course this is made even more difficult by the actual citation. Harry Truman is the source of the quote above, whereas it is likely to be a html or other document in most situations. I am not a user of a screen reader so would welcome any input on how they handle reading section by section. Do they have a function which will take them back a few sentences? I believe that a document design needs to stay focussed on the fact that some elements of a document shouldn't be hidden behind-the-scenes whilst some should (eg. the summary attribute now promoted to an element in the last XHTML 2.0 draft I read). I should stop now because this is the sort of thing to be taken to the XHTML 2 WG list. Admittedly, you may not encounter this type of scenario often, and it's maybe an extreme case I'm talking about, but still...something that just nags at me ;) I am also nagged by the lack of ability that UAs give for handling the cite attribute in blockquote and q elements. There are ways of presenting the information but it is limited to non-ie browsers in most cases. It's a hard decision because, I don't aim to alienate my readers too much, but I do want the freedom to present attractive information to browsers which can handle it. -- Paul Connolley SQL/Systems Programmer Egocentric - http://egocentric.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] blockquote cite=what the?
On 22 Oct 2004, at 02:23, Paul Connolley wrote: [snip] consider the scenario of a screenreader user who skips from paragraph to paragraph, and ends up on the second paragraph of this [snip a whole load more] I'll reiterate that I see that I reiterated nothing. I've missed a bit out that I intended to write. I won't bother with a correction, I hope I passed some of my points across. -- Paul Connolley SQL/Systems Programmer Egocentric - http://egocentric.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] blockquote cite=what the?
Paul Connolley wrote: This is a perfectly natural English language grammar. Sorry, wasn't advocating changing the writing style, but having a mechanism in place to unequivocally tie a CITE course to Q or BLOCKQUOTE and have those pesky browsers actually expose that information to the user (with possibly user selectable preferences on how, and how often - once in a document for same source, for instance - to present it). So yes, my main gripe is with browsers. Here's hoping for some new developments on that front in the future ;) Patrick H. Lauke _ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] blockquote cite=what the?
Patrick H. Lauke wrote: Paul Connolley wrote: This is a perfectly natural English language grammar. Sorry, wasn't advocating changing the writing style, but having a mechanism in place to unequivocally tie a CITE course to Q or BLOCKQUOTE My apologies also if I came across wrong. I agree with you wholeheartedly. I just wanted to add my 2 eurocents worth and expand a little on things I thought may be of interest (like the direction which the XHTML 2 WG is taking with some of the attributes becoming elements) -- Paul Connolley SQL/Systems Programmer Egocentric - http://egocentric.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **