[WSG] Browser toolbars

2009-05-04 Thread Frogspoon

Good morning all,

I have a quick question regarding browser toolbars and functionality.  
I have a client who is requesting a web application (online form) be  
built where they will lose some if not all browser navigation control  
and functionality, much like you would see on a Internet banking page.  
I'm against the idea personally but wanted to find out if there are  
any such standards out there that strongly encourage you keep these on  
your web page for usability and accessibility reasons. Finally, they  
wanted to the URL to be hidden as well, surely this is not recommended??


I'd appreciate any help on these questions,

Cheers

Frog


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Re: [WSG] Browser toolbars

2009-05-04 Thread Chris F.A. Johnson
On Tue, 5 May 2009, Frogspoon wrote:

 Good morning all,
 
 I have a quick question regarding browser toolbars and functionality. I have a
 client who is requesting a web application (online form) be built where they
 will lose some if not all browser navigation control and functionality, much
 like you would see on a Internet banking page.

   I've never lost navigation control or functionality on a banking
   web page, and I would complain loudly if I did.

   Browser toolbars are not under the control of the web page, nor
   should they be.

 I'm against the idea personally but wanted to find out if there are
 any such standards out there that strongly encourage you keep these
 on your web page for usability and accessibility reasons.

   Browser toolbars are not part of a web page.

 Finally, they wanted to the URL to be hidden as well, surely this is
 not recommended??

   It doesn't matter whether it is recommended or not; it is
   impossible.

-- 
   Chris F.A. Johnson, webmaster http://woodbine-gerrard.com
   ===
   Author:
   Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress)


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Re: [WSG] Browser toolbars

2009-05-04 Thread Andrew Maben

sigh!

I'll let others answer your main question. But as for the invisible  
URL, you might point out that this will make it all the easier for  
phishers to fake the site. And anyway, AFIK the URL will still be  
available in the browser's history.


BTW, has anyone come up with a bulletproof way to tell a client his  
stupid idea is stupid? Without losing the account?


Andrew

Sent from my iPod

On May 4, 2009, at 6:36 PM, Frogspoon frogspoo...@gmail.com wrote:


Good morning all,

I have a quick question regarding browser toolbars and  
functionality. I have a client who is requesting a web application  
(online form) be built where they will lose some if not all browser  
navigation control and functionality, much like you would see on a  
Internet banking page. I'm against the idea personally but wanted to  
find out if there are any such standards out there that strongly  
encourage you keep these on your web page for usability and  
accessibility reasons. Finally, they wanted to the URL to be hidden  
as well, surely this is not recommended??


I'd appreciate any help on these questions,

Cheers

Frog


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Re: [WSG] Browser toolbars

2009-05-04 Thread Ben Buchanan
I have a quick question regarding browser toolbars and functionality. I have
 a client who is requesting a web application (online form) be built where
 they will lose some if not all browser navigation control and functionality,
 much like you would see on a Internet banking page. I'm against the idea
 personally but wanted to find out if there are any such standards out there
 that strongly encourage you keep these on your web page for usability and
 accessibility reasons. Finally, they wanted to the URL to be hidden as well,
 surely this is not recommended??

I have to admit it's a long time since I actually looked up supporting
articles etc on this topic... messing with the browser chrome has been
considered a bad idea for a long time (and thanks to a certain new browser,
searching for articles about browser chromes has become exceedingly
irritating). Banks are holdouts but I wouldn't be taking any web
dev/usability leads from that industry ;)
Usability and user relations suggest that interfering with the user's
browser (tantamount to attacking their OS in the modern day) is a really bad
idea. It's a huge breach of trust in an increasingly trust-based economy -
if people can't trust you online, why would they trust you offline? Hiding
the URL just suggests you're trying to do something dodgy and in Opera at
least the browser makes it trivially simple to reopen the toolbars etc. I
wouldn't be surprised if browsers simply stopped letting pages hide toolbars
and URLs altogether, now that they use the URL bar for important status and
security information.
The other point I'd have to make is that removing these functions doesn't do
anything positive for the web app. People can still click back (right
click), refresh (f5), etc... you're not preventing any undesirable user
interactions that might cause problems for a web app. It's unclear what
benefit the client thinks they're getting.
From the accessibility point of view, it's not acceptable to mess with the
user's equipment. The browser is controlled by the user (it's not part of
the page after all), who will have learned their setup and may be
significantly annoyed and disoriented if your site changes it.
Not sure if those points will help convince your client to leave the browser
alone, but if you haven't already made those arguments maybe they'll help.
Essentially they need to ask themselves: do I want my website to behave
like it's a phishing scam?
cheers,
Ben


-- 
--- http://weblog.200ok.com.au/
--- The future has arrived; it's just not
--- evenly distributed. - William Gibson


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Re: [WSG] Browser toolbars

2009-05-04 Thread CK


I'm all ears, please inform



On May 4, 2009, at 4:39 PM, Andrew Maben wrote:

BTW, has anyone come up with a bulletproof way to tell a client his  
stupid idea is stupid? Without losing the account?




CK


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RE: [WSG] Browser toolbars

2009-05-04 Thread Janice Schwarz
I typically go with I highly recommend against that because and give the
reasons why. And keep your written and/or spoken tone as respectful and
polite as possible.

That said, it doesn't always sway them. My 10 years in this field sometimes
means nothing to those that are hard-headed enough. In situations where they
won't go with your recommendation...then its up to you to decide if you're
willing to do it or not.

Janice

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of CK
Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 5:35 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Browser toolbars


I'm all ears, please inform



On May 4, 2009, at 4:39 PM, Andrew Maben wrote:

 BTW, has anyone come up with a bulletproof way to tell a client his 
 stupid idea is stupid? Without losing the account?



CK


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Re: [WSG] Browser toolbars

2009-05-04 Thread Kane Tapping
Besides it being bad form, the only standard I know of that even mentions 
manipulating the browser chrome is the WCAG Samurai Errata for Web Content 
Accessibility Guidelines (WCAG) 1.0.

Specifically
* Do not cause pop-ups or other windows to appear and do not change the 
current window without informing the user.


Kind Regards,

Kane Tapping
Web Standards Developer
Information Services
Griffith University. 4111. Australia.
k.tapp...@griffith.edu.au
Phone: +61 (0)7 3735 7630





From:
Frogspoon frogspoo...@gmail.com
To:
wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Date:
05/05/2009 08:51 AM
Subject:
[WSG] Browser toolbars



Good morning all,

I have a quick question regarding browser toolbars and functionality. 
I have a client who is requesting a web application (online form) be 
built where they will lose some if not all browser navigation control 
and functionality, much like you would see on a Internet banking page. 
I'm against the idea personally but wanted to find out if there are 
any such standards out there that strongly encourage you keep these on 
your web page for usability and accessibility reasons. Finally, they 
wanted to the URL to be hidden as well, surely this is not recommended??

I'd appreciate any help on these questions,

Cheers

Frog


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