Re: [WSG] Compatibility and IE8

2008-01-24 Thread Ben Buchanan
crikey, that's some list. thanks Russ.


It's disturbing how well lemurs can illustrate the issue, too:
http://www.katemonkey.co.uk/article/48/x-ua-lemur-compatible (the Zeldman
lemur cracked me up completely)

On the issue... it's something MS simply won't back down on no matter what
any of us think. So we may as well figure out how to deal with it.

Standardistas can go for the edge option or they can let IE stagnate at
IE7 or whatever version ends up being the easiest to develop
for. Or they can seriously tag their documents according to tested documents.

Implementation specifics aside (yes I still think it's spam), the version
target feature offers us a chance to lock our sites to the most convenient
version of IE. MS has invited us to ignore their newer products. We can opt
to save our energy for standards-based browsers and not bother learning new
versions of IE. Lazy? Pragmatic? Mercenary?

Discuss? :) Surely this list has some opinions...

cheers,
Ben

-- 
--- http://weblog.200ok.com.au/
--- The future has arrived; it's just not
--- evenly distributed. - William Gibson


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Re: [WSG] Compatibility and IE8

2008-01-24 Thread dwain
code for standards compliant browsers and let ie fall where it may.
dwain

On 1/24/08, Ben Buchanan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



 crikey, that's some list. thanks Russ.


 It's disturbing how well lemurs can illustrate the issue, too: 
 http://www.katemonkey.co.uk/article/48/x-ua-lemur-compatible
 (the Zeldman lemur cracked me up completely)

 On the issue... it's something MS simply won't back down on no matter what
 any of us think. So we may as well figure out how to deal with it.

 Standardistas can go for the edge option or they can let IE stagnate at
 IE7 or whatever version ends up being the easiest to develop
 for. Or they can seriously tag their documents according to tested documents.


 Implementation specifics aside (yes I still think it's spam), the version
 target feature offers us a chance to lock our sites to the most convenient
 version of IE. MS has invited us to ignore their newer products. We can opt
 to save our energy for standards-based browsers and not bother learning new
 versions of IE. Lazy? Pragmatic? Mercenary?

 Discuss? :) Surely this list has some opinions...

 cheers,
 Ben

 --
 --- http://weblog.200ok.com.au/
 --- The future has arrived; it's just not
 --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson
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-- 
dwain alford
The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
for his inner impulse must find suitable expression.  Kandinsky


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Re: [WSG] Compatibility and IE8

2008-01-24 Thread John Faulds

It's disturbing how well lemurs can illustrate the issue, too:
http://www.katemonkey.co.uk/article/48/x-ua-lemur-compatible (the Zeldman
lemur cracked me up completely)


That's awesome!

We can opt to save our energy for standards-based browsers and not  
bother learning new versions of IE. Lazy? Pragmatic? Mercenary?


As others have pointed out, if everyone decides to lock sites into IE7, MS  
have no incentive to continue down the road of web standards and may in  
fact, do the opposite and actively promote against it. That could have  
serious consequences, e.g.:


* MS does one thing and everyone else does another except worse than it is  
now where MS have at least been trying to come to the party,
* MS does its best to tell everyone that hasn't yet bought into web  
standards that web standards are holding back the web, that their way is  
better, and end up killing it (web standards).



--
Tyssen Design
http://www.tyssendesign.com.au
Ph: (07) 3300 3303
Mb: 0405 678 590


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Re: [WSG] Compatibility and IE8

2008-01-24 Thread Al Sparber

From: Ben Buchanan [EMAIL PROTECTED]

crikey, that's some list. thanks Russ.
On the issue... it's something MS simply won't back down on no matter what
any of us think. So we may as well figure out how to deal with it.



Discuss? :) Surely this list has some opinions...


It's all about numbers. There are too many users lingering with old Windows 
versions and old browsers. Many of them refuse to upgrade because of 
sentiments similar to those couched in this thread. That is, they either 
dislike or distrust Microsoft. That's a tough position to be in. Others are 
quasi-competent developers running huge intranets laced with proprietary IE 
features. The folks who use the intranet, use their same antiquated IE 
browsers to view the public Web. I think Chris Wilson is a brilliant fellow 
and I also believe the IE team can make a browser as compliant as anyone 
else. Perhaps it's time for Microsoft to take some risks and forcibly push 
new browser versions out. Perhaps a marketing campaign to educate 
civilians and done as well as Apple's I'm a Mac ads would get things 
rolling along.


In any event, I think that Microsoft has demonstrated a commitment to 
standards and it might be time to cut them some slack.


--
Al Sparber - PVII
http://www.projectseven.com
Extending Dreamweaver - Nav Systems | Galleries | Widgets
Authors: 42nd Street: Mastering the Art of CSS Design




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Re: [WSG] Compatibility and IE8

2008-01-24 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun

Ben Buchanan wrote:
Implementation specifics aside (yes I still think it's spam), the 
version target feature offers us a chance to lock our sites to the 
most convenient version of IE. MS has invited us to ignore their 
newer products. We can opt to save our energy for standards-based 
browsers and not bother learning new versions of IE. Lazy? Pragmatic?

 Mercenary?

Discuss?  :)  Surely this list has some opinions...


All of the above - depending on the situation at hand.

Being practical, it all comes down to what IE8 is worth - in any mode,
once it's released and thoroughly tested.

- IE6 and IE7 will need their workarounds for a few years, so it's
mostly business as usual on the IE/win front even after IE8' arrival.

- If IE8 can do without its own workarounds and isn't disturbed by any
workarounds for its predecessors, then triggering IE8 mode doesn't
cost anything. If not, then the most solid workarounds have to be
found and tested before seriously leaving the IE7 forever mode - if
that mode really works. The way the proposed switch works, we should be
able to relax and not bother looking for IE8 fixes until after IE9, or
IE10, is out - just to see how the browser is shaping up.

- If clients expect and/or demand triggering of a beyond IE7 mode
(which they probably won't), then they'll get it once any problems with
it are solved.


Bottom line: I don't like this new switch one bit, but I'm pretty
relaxed on the matter and will trigger a suitable beyond IE7 mode if
it serves any purpose - for me.

regards
Georg

--
http://www.gunlaug.no


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[WSG] Compatibility and IE8

2008-01-23 Thread russ - maxdesign
Hi all,

Have you been following the discussions on the IE8 and compatibility for the
last couple of days? For those that haven't been following it (or have
deliberately run away to hide), here are a few articles to read  :)

Here is how it all began...
http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2008/01/21/compatibility-and-ie8.aspx

Then there were these two:
http://alistapart.com/articles/beyonddoctype

http://alistapart.com/articles/fromswitchestotargets

And responses/discussions came thick and fast...

http://annevankesteren.nl/2008/01/ie-lock-in

http://ejohn.org/blog/meta-madness/

http://www.webstandards.org/2008/01/22/microsofts-version-targeting-proposa
l/

http://unstoppablerobotninja.com/journal/entry/518/

http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/roc/archives/2008/01/post_2.html

http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/roc/archives/2008/01/slipping_the_ba.html

http://www.isolani.co.uk/blog/standards/EndOfLineInternetExplorer

http://adactio.com/journal/1402/

http://www.zeldman.com/2008/01/22/in-defense-of-version-targeting/

http://www.news.com/Acid2%2C-Acid3%2C-and-the-power-of-default/2010-1013_3-
6227171.html?part=rsstag=2547-1_3-0-5subj=news

http://intertwingly.net/blog/2008/01/22/Best-Standards-Support

http://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/2008/01/the_versioning.html

http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200801/standards_mode_is_the_new_quir
ks_mode/

http://www.andybudd.com/archives/2008/01/has_internet_ex/

http://morethanseven.net/posts/who-loses-out-to-x-ua-compatible/

http://dean.edwards.name/weblog/2008/01/quotes/

http://www.rachelandrew.co.uk/archives/2008/01/22/ie8-and-the-future-of-the
-web/

http://www.snook.ca/archives/browsers/version_targeting_ie8/

http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1201080691count=1

http://webkit.org/blog/155/versioning-compatibility-and-standards/

http://my.opera.com/dstorey/blog/2008/01/22/the-great-opt-out

And two final entries discovered just now  :)

http://weblog.200ok.com.au/2008/01/opt-out-version-targeting-is-spam.html

http://log.lachstock.com.au/past/2008/1/23/X-UA-Compatible-past-thoughts-of
-children/

Phew...enjoy the reading...
Thanks
Russ




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Re: [WSG] Compatibility and IE8

2008-01-23 Thread Terrence Wood
crikey, that's some list. thanks Russ.

On 24/01/2008, russ - maxdesign [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Have you been following the discussions on the IE8 and compatibility for the
 last couple of days? For those that haven't been following it (or have
 deliberately run away to hide), here are a few articles to read  :)

-- 
kind regards,
Terrence Wood


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