Re: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign
Hi all, Now we are getting to the core of it! What we need is ISO standardisation for web development! Something like the famous ISO 9000. Quality Control! I an hoping that is an ironic exclamation mark. If you want to be a Quality Accredited web development business, you need to follow a strict line of internationally recognised standards. Of course you can go off track and do the usual shabby invalid HTML crap, but for the serious people an ISO is the perfect solution. for very wealthy organisations ISO9000 is a ludicrous amount of paperwork required to pick up certain government contracts and so on, excluding many smaller providers. It's the last thing the web needs IMO. BTW, there is an ISO version of HTML if you really want to use it. The beauty of the web is its bottom up nature You can largely do automated testing for quality - valid CSS, HTML, WAI compliance - using open source tools, for free. All I can say is, based on a lot of recent auditing, quality of this nature is exceedingly rare in major Australian sites. You'll hear more about that at WE045 john John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign
On Thu, 2005-09-08 at 16:46 +1000, John Allsopp wrote: You'll hear more about that at WE045 I hope we don't have to wait until 2045 for quality coding to catch on! ;-) Kind Regards, Joshua Street base10solutions Website: http://www.base10solutions.com.au/ Phone: (02) 9898-0060 Fax: (02) 8572-6021 Mobile: 0425 808 469 Multimedia Development Agency ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign
That's actually no different to being a student, with the exception that the lecturer has got a full time job in addition to having to learn all the stuff they have to then teach. ...and that's no different from having a full-time job as a developer, and having to research - and learn - all the new stuff. But you have to agree it is much easier to stay up-to-date if you work in the field every day and actually practically implement new technologies. Surely if you have a room full of 15 students, whose task it is to learn about web development by building website, you have not just one or two clients to try standards out on, but 15. In fact, if each student has 3 projects to do over a year-long course, surely then you have 3 x 15 = 45 different projects? In which case I would say that the role of a web educator is to act as a project manager or technical lead - a code shamen, if you will! - to those students, guiding them into exploring the best way to achieve the desired result. And that should mean regular trips to W3C, QuirksMode, CSS Zen Garden etc etc. Web development - particularly in regard to standards - is an ongoing conversation, never a fixed set of rules. Chris ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign
-Original Message- From: John Allsopp [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 8 September 2005 4:46 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign Hi all, Now we are getting to the core of it! What we need is ISO standardisation for web development! Something like the famous ISO 9000. Quality Control! I an hoping that is an ironic exclamation mark. I can assure you I am not a big fan of ISO for exactly the reasons you mentioned: it's something only big companies can afford and the main purpose is not to enhance quality, but to have a nice little logo on your website that will bring you more clients. But I am sure over time the enforced quality, which Scott mentioned exists in other industries such as construction, will slowly emerge in our industry as well, in particular what commercial web development is concerned. Of course we already see this enforced quality appear in the area of accessibility, where government and corporate organisations are legally obliged to fulfil minimum standards. A few more cases in which large organisations get hit with fines for not adhering to accessibility expectations and the quality of web development will suddenly improve over night. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign
On 8 Sep 2005, at 8:59 AM, Craig Rippon wrote: by-the-by: I am a web development student at Yeronga TAFE college in Brisbane, Australia. One of my instructors has never heard of DOCTYPE, refuses to put tags in lowercase and also refuses to close p, 'cause they don't need to be closed. Which just goes to prove the (cynical) old saw: 'Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach.' Seriously, this is a good example of how important it is that tertiary education the world over keeps its curriculum up to speed with what's happening in the real world. Difficult, I know, given the administrative behemoths that are responsible for govt-run education - but as a student, if your course is not up to scratch, you should complain - in writing - to the highest power that you can. Maybe your local MP? It may take years for change to come about, and probably won't help you, but it may help the students down the line... N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign
Ah ha ha yes! Exactly my experience with my *first* web design course ever... it's called Intro to Web Design Programming. I'm only in the class because I have nothing else to take, and it's the only web design class being offered in the fall... and because I want to be a teaching assistant for the class next year. I've already realized I'm way ahead of the course, but anyway, so the professors (there's 2) require that all documents validate as xhtml 1.0 strict. The book talks about XHTML and using validation. But the book talks about using tables for layout, because it's *easier* than divs! And the course website, which was designed by a graduate student, http://cs130.cs.cornell.edu/ HAS a table layout. For no reason. Plus, most of the teaching assistants are art students or people who just like web design, and don't actually know much about using computers. Basically, there's a lot of fumbling and such. It's very painful, so much so that I don't attend lecture, so that I don't have to intervene in situations like this: Innocent student: Is *strong a valid XHTML 1.0 tag? Professor or Teaching Assistant, take your pick: I don't think so. Actually, I'm not sure. I'll have to go check and e-mail you. ARGH!On 9/7/05, NickGleitzman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 8 Sep 2005, at 8:59 AM, Craig Rippon wrote: by-the-by: I am a web development student at Yeronga TAFE college in Brisbane, Australia. One of my instructors has never heard of DOCTYPE, refuses to put tags in lowercase and also refuses to close p, 'cause they don't need to be closed.Which just goes to prove the (cynical) old saw: 'Those that can, do.Those that can't, teach.'Seriously, this is a good example of how important it is that tertiary education the world over keeps its curriculum up to speed with what'shappening in the real world. Difficult, I know, given theadministrative behemoths that are responsible for govt-run education -but as a student, if your course is not up to scratch, you should complain - in writing - to the highest power that you can. Maybe yourlocal MP? It may take years for change to come about, and probablywon't help you, but it may help the students down the line...N ___Omnivision. Websight.http://www.omnivision.com.au/**The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign
Have filed a formal complaint against the instructor (who happens to run 10 hours of the 20 hours of classes we have each week.) I am no longer attending his classes and may not get my Diploma. Still, gives me more time to study at home (without the distraction of the fit young Physical Education students!) -Original Message- From: Nick Gleitzman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 8 September 2005 9:14 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign On 8 Sep 2005, at 8:59 AM, Craig Rippon wrote: by-the-by: I am a web development student at Yeronga TAFE college in Brisbane, Australia. One of my instructors has never heard of DOCTYPE, refuses to put tags in lowercase and also refuses to close p, 'cause they don't need to be closed. Which just goes to prove the (cynical) old saw: 'Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach.' Seriously, this is a good example of how important it is that tertiary education the world over keeps its curriculum up to speed with what's happening in the real world. Difficult, I know, given the administrative behemoths that are responsible for govt-run education - but as a student, if your course is not up to scratch, you should complain - in writing - to the highest power that you can. Maybe your local MP? It may take years for change to come about, and probably won't help you, but it may help the students down the line... N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign
On 08/09/2005, at 9:14 AM, Nick Gleitzman wrote: On 8 Sep 2005, at 8:59 AM, Craig Rippon wrote: by-the-by: I am a web development student at Yeronga TAFE college in Brisbane, Australia. One of my instructors has never heard of DOCTYPE, refuses to put tags in lowercase and also refuses to close p, 'cause they don't need to be closed. Which just goes to prove the (cynical) old saw: 'Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach.' Seriously, this is a good example of how important it is that tertiary education the world over keeps its curriculum up to speed with what's happening in the real world. Difficult, I know, given the administrative behemoths that are responsible for govt-run education - but as a student, if your course is not up to scratch, you should complain - in writing - to the highest power that you can. Maybe your local MP? It may take years for change to come about, and probably won't help you, but it may help the students down the line... And in the meantime, you've got us to help you learn to do it right! *grin* Seriously, though, when I did my uni course we had a subject on usability and accessibility and it touched briefly (very briefly) on CSS. Pity none of the tutors really understood it. *sigh* I ended up taking one of the tutes myself, because I was the only one in the class who knew what the lecturer was getting at. Might have considered getting into teaching myself, except that it would mean I had to deal with students... Cheers, Seona. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign
http://cs130.cs.cornell.edu/ HAS a table layout. For no reason. No reason? It makes it much easier to meet the absolutely necessary design requirement of... arbitrarily splitting the background color in half?
RE: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign
There are actually a few excellent teachers at Sydney Institute (ultimo TAFE) who understand and teach web site design and development with a real focus on web standards. Their knowledge is extremely current and while the old addage of 'Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach.' is sometimes true, it isn't always. and defineitely not in this case. Lisa -Original Message- From: Seona Bellamy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 8 September 2005 9:36 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign On 08/09/2005, at 9:14 AM, Nick Gleitzman wrote: On 8 Sep 2005, at 8:59 AM, Craig Rippon wrote: by-the-by: I am a web development student at Yeronga TAFE college in Brisbane, Australia. One of my instructors has never heard of DOCTYPE, refuses to put tags in lowercase and also refuses to close p, 'cause they don't need to be closed. Which just goes to prove the (cynical) old saw: 'Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach.' Seriously, this is a good example of how important it is that tertiary education the world over keeps its curriculum up to speed with what's happening in the real world. Difficult, I know, given the administrative behemoths that are responsible for govt-run education - but as a student, if your course is not up to scratch, you should complain - in writing - to the highest power that you can. Maybe your local MP? It may take years for change to come about, and probably won't help you, but it may help the students down the line... And in the meantime, you've got us to help you learn to do it right! *grin* Seriously, though, when I did my uni course we had a subject on usability and accessibility and it touched briefly (very briefly) on CSS. Pity none of the tutors really understood it. *sigh* I ended up taking one of the tutes myself, because I was the only one in the class who knew what the lecturer was getting at. Might have considered getting into teaching myself, except that it would mean I had to deal with students... Cheers, Seona. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign
That could also be done with a coule divs... I think. Not that I would want to have a page background like that. Ugh. On 9/7/05, Kenny Graham [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://cs130.cs.cornell.edu/ HAS a table layout. For no reason. No reason? It makes it much easier to meet the absolutely necessary design requirement of... arbitrarily splitting the background color in half?
Re: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign
Then again, I used to teach at Northern Sydney IT - they aren't all lucky enough to get you Lisa :-) john On 08/09/2005, at 9:48 AM, Herrod, Lisa wrote: There are actually a few excellent teachers at Sydney Institute (ultimo TAFE) who understand and teach web site design and development with a real focus on web standards. Their knowledge is extremely current and while the old addage of 'Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach.' is sometimes true, it isn't always. and defineitely not in this case. Lisa -Original Message- From: Seona Bellamy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 8 September 2005 9:36 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign On 08/09/2005, at 9:14 AM, Nick Gleitzman wrote: On 8 Sep 2005, at 8:59 AM, Craig Rippon wrote: by-the-by: I am a web development student at Yeronga TAFE college in Brisbane, Australia. One of my instructors has never heard of DOCTYPE, refuses to put tags in lowercase and also refuses to close p, 'cause they don't need to be closed. Which just goes to prove the (cynical) old saw: 'Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach.' Seriously, this is a good example of how important it is that tertiary education the world over keeps its curriculum up to speed with what's happening in the real world. Difficult, I know, given the administrative behemoths that are responsible for govt-run education - but as a student, if your course is not up to scratch, you should complain - in writing - to the highest power that you can. Maybe your local MP? It may take years for change to come about, and probably won't help you, but it may help the students down the line... And in the meantime, you've got us to help you learn to do it right! *grin* Seriously, though, when I did my uni course we had a subject on usability and accessibility and it touched briefly (very briefly) on CSS. Pity none of the tutors really understood it. *sigh* I ended up taking one of the tutes myself, because I was the only one in the class who knew what the lecturer was getting at. Might have considered getting into teaching myself, except that it would mean I had to deal with students... Cheers, Seona. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign
John! I wasn't talking about me! I'm not there anymore LOL I won't name names, but I will say they're lurking about on this list... you know who you are people :) I'm starting to see a new reality show... something like 'Rock school' but it would be called 'standards school' - john perhaps you can take over Gene simmons role...? :) -Original Message- From: John Allsopp [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 8 September 2005 9:58 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign Then again, I used to teach at Northern Sydney IT - they aren't all lucky enough to get you Lisa :-) john On 08/09/2005, at 9:48 AM, Herrod, Lisa wrote: There are actually a few excellent teachers at Sydney Institute (ultimo TAFE) who understand and teach web site design and development with a real focus on web standards. Their knowledge is extremely current and while the old addage of 'Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach.' is sometimes true, it isn't always. and defineitely not in this case. Lisa -Original Message- From: Seona Bellamy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 8 September 2005 9:36 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign On 08/09/2005, at 9:14 AM, Nick Gleitzman wrote: On 8 Sep 2005, at 8:59 AM, Craig Rippon wrote: by-the-by: I am a web development student at Yeronga TAFE college in Brisbane, Australia. One of my instructors has never heard of DOCTYPE, refuses to put tags in lowercase and also refuses to close p, 'cause they don't need to be closed. Which just goes to prove the (cynical) old saw: 'Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach.' Seriously, this is a good example of how important it is that tertiary education the world over keeps its curriculum up to speed with what's happening in the real world. Difficult, I know, given the administrative behemoths that are responsible for govt-run education - but as a student, if your course is not up to scratch, you should complain - in writing - to the highest power that you can. Maybe your local MP? It may take years for change to come about, and probably won't help you, but it may help the students down the line... And in the meantime, you've got us to help you learn to do it right! *grin* Seriously, though, when I did my uni course we had a subject on usability and accessibility and it touched briefly (very briefly) on CSS. Pity none of the tutors really understood it. *sigh* I ended up taking one of the tutes myself, because I was the only one in the class who knew what the lecturer was getting at. Might have considered getting into teaching myself, except that it would mean I had to deal with students... Cheers, Seona. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Educate the educators
On 8 Sep 2005, at 9:48 AM, Herrod, Lisa wrote: There are actually a few excellent teachers at Sydney Institute (ultimo TAFE) who understand and teach web site design and development with a real focus on web standards. Their knowledge is extremely current and while the old addage of 'Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach.' is sometimes true, it isn't always. and defineitely not in this case. Thanks for the heads up, Lisa - that's really good to know. I did preface that adage with '(cynical)' - and I realise that my comments about education were a vast generalisation. So, newbies of the world, take note - Sydney is the place to be, if you want to learn how to do it right! N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign
-Original Message- From: Herrod, Lisa [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 8 September 2005 9:48 AM To: 'wsg@webstandardsgroup.org' Subject: RE: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign There are actually a few excellent teachers at Sydney Institute (ultimo TAFE) who understand and teach web site design and development with a real focus on web standards. Their knowledge is extremely current and while the old addage of 'Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach.' is sometimes true, it isn't always. and defineitely not in this case. Lisa To the defense of the university/tafe lecturers: it is extremely hard to stay up-to-date with the latest technology if you don't have any possibility to practically implement it. I used to teach at university for 2 years and then decided to stop when I realised even after that short period of time I was not keeping up with the latest developments. I returned to the practical work of development for a few years, which really helped me get back to standard quickly. You just have to work in the industry to really understand what it is all about and to be able to prepare your students for the real world. Now I have decided to do a few guest lectures at university, which will allow me to keep working in the industry, but at the same time I can teach the students the kind of stuff I would have loved to know when I was in their shoes. But not everybody can afford this kind of employment mix. If you are a full time lecturer all you can rely on is books, training courses and seminars to learn from. That's actually no different to being a student, with the exception that the lecturer has got a full time job in addition to having to learn all the stuff they have to then teach. This industry makes it really hard to be a good long-term teacher, I think. If you are professor of mathematics you can pretty much rely on things not changing too much over the years. But teaching web development or something similar requires you to be learning new things non-stop. H This is going way off-topic, right? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign
I think it was Russ (Maxdesign) told me that there at least a couple of Sydney TAFEs that teach Diploma IT Web Development really well, one of them was Blue Mountains TAFE (too far from Brisbane unfortunately). -Original Message- From: Herrod, Lisa [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 8 September 2005 10:05 AM To: 'wsg@webstandardsgroup.org' Subject: RE: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign John! I wasn't talking about me! I'm not there anymore LOL I won't name names, but I will say they're lurking about on this list... you know who you are people :) I'm starting to see a new reality show... something like 'Rock school' but it would be called 'standards school' - john perhaps you can take over Gene simmons role...? :) -Original Message- From: John Allsopp [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 8 September 2005 9:58 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign Then again, I used to teach at Northern Sydney IT - they aren't all lucky enough to get you Lisa :-) john On 08/09/2005, at 9:48 AM, Herrod, Lisa wrote: There are actually a few excellent teachers at Sydney Institute (ultimo TAFE) who understand and teach web site design and development with a real focus on web standards. Their knowledge is extremely current and while the old addage of 'Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach.' is sometimes true, it isn't always. and defineitely not in this case. Lisa -Original Message- From: Seona Bellamy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 8 September 2005 9:36 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign On 08/09/2005, at 9:14 AM, Nick Gleitzman wrote: On 8 Sep 2005, at 8:59 AM, Craig Rippon wrote: by-the-by: I am a web development student at Yeronga TAFE college in Brisbane, Australia. One of my instructors has never heard of DOCTYPE, refuses to put tags in lowercase and also refuses to close p, 'cause they don't need to be closed. Which just goes to prove the (cynical) old saw: 'Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach.' Seriously, this is a good example of how important it is that tertiary education the world over keeps its curriculum up to speed with what's happening in the real world. Difficult, I know, given the administrative behemoths that are responsible for govt-run education - but as a student, if your course is not up to scratch, you should complain - in writing - to the highest power that you can. Maybe your local MP? It may take years for change to come about, and probably won't help you, but it may help the students down the line... And in the meantime, you've got us to help you learn to do it right! *grin* Seriously, though, when I did my uni course we had a subject on usability and accessibility and it touched briefly (very briefly) on CSS. Pity none of the tutors really understood it. *sigh* I ended up taking one of the tutes myself, because I was the only one in the class who knew what the lecturer was getting at. Might have considered getting into teaching myself, except that it would mean I had to deal with students... Cheers, Seona. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign
From: Herrod, Lisa There are actually a few excellent teachers at Sydney Institute (ultimo TAFE) who understand and teach... Maybe TAFE is better than most other educational institutes. I did some welding courses quite a few years ago and the instructors we had were brilliant practitioners and knew the theory well too. They had all had long years in the trade (boilermaking). -- Peter Williams ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign
Herrod, Lisa wrote: I'm starting to see a new reality show... something like 'Rock school' but it would be called 'standards school' Well, although it bears no relation to Sydney, or indeed, tertiary education, there is a high school in Victoria teaching standards-based web design. As I think I may have mentioned on the list before, I wrote a few courses, and even delivered some. I was teaching (whilst supervised by a qualified teacher, of course) Year 8 students standards-based web design - coding HTML and CSS from scratch in Notepad. They grasped it pretty quickly, although I suppose that most will forget it or have their knowledge corrupted by future use of FrontPage or something I've since moved on to a corporate job, but my father is still there teaching a course of mine (with his own modifications) to Year 11 and 12 students The main problem is that the kind of tutorials and articles that we all learnt from, and the investigation and exploration we all did (and are doing, hopefully) are completely unsuited to teaching a class full of students. Particularly those in high-school You want to educate the educators? Provide them with material tailored for use in the classroom that they can use immediately Seona wrote: Might have considered getting into teaching myself, except that it would mean I had to deal with students... Actually, dealing with staff was worse! Students are easy, you just show them cool stuff and they get excited. Staff are way too jaded for that to work. They just want stuff that won't take up any extra time in their day. As Andreas said, they don't have time to maintain the requisite knowledge Cheers Lachlan ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign
On 8 Sep 2005, at 10:43 AM, Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] wrote: But not everybody can afford this kind of employment mix. If you are a full time lecturer all you can rely on is books, training courses and seminars to learn from. What about the web itself? That's actually no different to being a student, with the exception that the lecturer has got a full time job in addition to having to learn all the stuff they have to then teach. ...and that's no different from having a full-time job as a developer, and having to research - and learn - all the new stuff. This industry makes it really hard to be a good long-term teacher, I think. If you are professor of mathematics you can pretty much rely on things not changing too much over the years. But teaching web development or something similar requires you to be learning new things non-stop. Of course it does - as does any field that is based on emerging, and rapidly changing, technology. Sorry, but 'I haven't got time' is a copout, IMO. I think what's more relevant is how long it takes for curriculum changes to be formulated, approved, and implemented - which takes time, because of the administrative structure of so many educational institutions. I know - I've worked on curriculum development committees in the past, and it took two years for the changes to reach the students - by which time the real world had moved on... N __ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign
I'm actually a real champion of the TAFE system, the skills I learned at my last TAFE course lasted me 15 years, absolutely brilliant. -Original Message- From: Peter Williams [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 8 September 2005 10:55 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign From: Herrod, Lisa There are actually a few excellent teachers at Sydney Institute (ultimo TAFE) who understand and teach... Maybe TAFE is better than most other educational institutes. I did some welding courses quite a few years ago and the instructors we had were brilliant practitioners and knew the theory well too. They had all had long years in the trade (boilermaking). -- Peter Williams ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign
On 8 Sep 2005, at 10:43 AM, Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] wrote: H This is going way off-topic, right? No, no - I've enjoyed the couple of heatedly debated threads over the past couple of days far more than the 'please fix my code' posts - without please or thank you - that are such a prominent feature of this list. It *is* a discussion group, isn't it? And I think that formal education of Standards is a critical way to get the word out there... and so, on topic. Admin, if you disagree, I'm sure we'll hear from you... N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign
-Original Message- From: Nick Gleitzman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 8 September 2005 11:09 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign On 8 Sep 2005, at 10:43 AM, Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] wrote: But not everybody can afford this kind of employment mix. If you are a full time lecturer all you can rely on is books, training courses and seminars to learn from. What about the web itself? That's actually no different to being a student, with the exception that the lecturer has got a full time job in addition to having to learn all the stuff they have to then teach. ...and that's no different from having a full-time job as a developer, and having to research - and learn - all the new stuff. But you have to agree it is much easier to stay up-to-date if you work in the field every day and actually practically implement new technologies. If a company looks for new staff members they will think twice before employing somebody who has got no practical experience in the field. For a good reason - you might have read a book about it, but you don't know it until you have done it. Teachers at University/Tafe/Highschool do not have the opportunity to try out what they learn, yet they still have to stand infront of the students confidently and teach them an ever-changing technology. That's bloody hard! Developers learn something in theory, try it out practically, and if it doesn't work they will keep on trying as the go along until they understand it. Maybe I am just a practical kind of person, but that's the way I see it. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign
But you have to agree it is much easier to stay up-to-date if you work inthe field every day and actually practically implement new technologies. If a company looks for new staff members they will think twice before employingsomebody who has got no practical experience in the field. For a good reason- you might have read a book about it, but you don't know it until you have done it. Teachers at University/Tafe/Highschool do not have the opportunityto try out what they learn, yet they still have to stand infront of thestudents confidently and teach them an ever-changing technology. That's bloody hard!Developers learn something in theory, try it out practically, and if itdoesn't work they will keep on trying as the go along until they understandit. Maybe I am just a practical kind of person, but that's the way I see it. I would believe that, if it weren't for the fact that there are so many web design companies / freelancers out there that are still selling non-standards based design. I think the problem is still that browsers allow mistakes and old code. The old, if it ain't broke, don't fix it!
RE: [WSG] Educate the educators
I can tell you from my experience studying/teaching web site design and development at TAFE and personally studying at Masters Level in Interactive Multimedia, that the top, conscientious students I saw graduating from TAFE definitely had practical skills and knowledge advanced enough that they could have breezed through the prac subjects in the Masters. absolutely without a doubt. -Original Message- From: Craig Rippon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 8 September 2005 11:12 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign I'm actually a real champion of the TAFE system, the skills I learned at my last TAFE course lasted me 15 years, absolutely brilliant. -Original Message- From: Peter Williams [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 8 September 2005 10:55 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign From: Herrod, Lisa There are actually a few excellent teachers at Sydney Institute (ultimo TAFE) who understand and teach... Maybe TAFE is better than most other educational institutes. I did some welding courses quite a few years ago and the instructors we had were brilliant practitioners and knew the theory well too. They had all had long years in the trade (boilermaking). -- Peter Williams ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign
On 9/8/05, Craig Rippon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Have filed a formal complaint against the instructor (who happens to run 10 I am no longer attending his classes and may not get my Diploma. Hi Craig, Don't let it get you down, I went through exactly the same thing in '03-'04 while attending Qantm in the Brissy CBD. Fortunately for me, although most of my instructors had little to no experience with current techniques, they at least understood why I stopped attending after 6 months and instead chose to furiously study at home. I proudly state that I gained the majority of my skill set from two sources, blogs and codingforums.com (shameless plug!! ;). Attending a private college whose techniques were so behind the times taught me one very important thing: being a web developer is much like being a musician -- you either wake up every day thinking I am a student; what can I learn today? or you are retired. I don't care if you're still working -- if you're not learning, you're retired :) So, after avoiding learning outdated techniques in favour of teaching myself XHTML/CSS/unobtrusive scripting, my time studying and 5 figure bill gave me exactly what I expected it to -- a piece of paper that got me into job interviews. In Australia it's all about the piece of paper, unfortunately :( Once you're in the door, it's all about your skills. Don't talk porrly of your former learning institute, just let the interview panel know that you feared the educational sector's ability to keep up with a field that shifts focus and methods as quickly as web development; therefore, you took it upon yourself to ensure that your skills are in sync with industry standards. (or 'developing standards', in the case of early adoption of techniques/technologies). Am I full of it? Is the above advice a complete load? Well, I wrote my first HTML file in 2003 and I'm now a senior multimedia developer for a 5 campus university -- the 'dream job' I focused on for all those late, late nights in front of a glowing CRT :) all the best, Andrew. http://leftjustified.net/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign
Seona Bellamy wrote: I can't see why it wouldn't be the same for teachers. I mean, English and Literature teachers need to read the texts they will be taking their class through so that they are familiar with the material. When the way of approaching mathematics changed (my mother has told some highly amusing anecdotes about being a student during the shift to new maths back in the late 60s/early 70s) all the maths teachers would have had to go out and learn the new approach and new techniques so they could teach their students. Why can't the same be said of Web Development teachers? Because that would require a directive from above. And would still be resisted for all the usual reasons that change is resisted. The key component there, though, is convincing the relevant curriculum bodies of the importance of standards-based design. Independent institutions such as TAFEs, universities and private schools can determine their curriculum to greater or lesser extent. Government schools cannot. Organisations such as (in Australia), VCAA and its equivalents in other states and the Curriculum Corporation etc need to be convinced. Another way to reach teachers is via teaching associations or computing associations. I've yet to hear of anyone making any ground in any of those arenas pushing a standards-based agenda Anyone with ideas for taking those academic ivory towers by storm is welcome to email me personally if they don't want to share with the list Cheers Lachlan ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign
Lachlan Hardy wrote: The key component there, though, is convincing the relevant curriculum bodies of the importance of standards-based design. My thought (and I blogged on this today - interesting discussion!) is that it's not something to be added to a curriculum, rather it's part of teaching basic web design and the use of web development tools. It's just as easy to teach good coding as bad coding, and tools like Dreamweaver can be used to code to standards or not - so why not teach about standards from the start? Though I agree to get those words in a course outline (web standards, web accessibility and so on) might be a bit of a battle... Nevertheless the teachers still need to somehow gain an understanding of why it is a good thing to teach web standards. Groups like the WSG have a big role to play there. For example, our first Perth WSG meeting was at Edith Cowan University and was attended by some of the teaching staff. (I'm not saying these staff members previously didn't know or care about web standards - not at all. But the thing is, we didn't know either way so it was a good opportunity and we hope they found it valuable in one way or another.) So getting out there amongst people who are in a position to change things is one potentially effective method. Vicki. :-) -- Vicki Berry DistinctiveWeb Web: http://www.distinctiveweb.com.au Blog: http://www.unheardword.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign
This has evolved into an interesting topic! I started my working life as an apprentice carpenter (some time ago now!). I attended a tech college as part of the apprenticeship learning the skills needed to be a carpenter, and also the regulations and building codes that I would eventually have to build to and comply with. Construction is much like web development in that the standards, methods and tools change quite frequently. At no point was I ever taught to out of date standards/regulations - that would have constituted malpractice on the part of the educators. The difference, as far as I can see, is that other industries have their standards rigidly applied. If you build something sub-standard in construction it goes through several approval stages, so might not even make it to completion. If it does get through this process undetected, and is later found out, then the persons responsible are liable to fines and in some cases imprisonment. Now I'm not saying we should police web design and development in quite the same way - it would be almost impossible to do, and would serve little purpose. The point is, no matter what standards are formulated and pushed by groups like this, they are only going to be best practice recommendations. And so their implementation and promotion can only be achieved by active promotion to _higher_bodies_ responsible for the eduction of future developers, and to key personnel in government and major businesses and industries. Once these people have taken on board the need for compliance with the standards, the message and methods filter down. Businesses will request and expect contracts be completed to standards, educators will teach to standards. Current developers will be forced to code to standards if businesses request so. This is my 0.005c (times are hard!) Regards Scott Swabey Lafinboy Productions www.lafinboy.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign
-Original Message- From: Scott Swabey - Lafinboy Productions [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 8 September 2005 2:49 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign This has evolved into an interesting topic! The difference, as far as I can see, is that other industries have their standards rigidly applied. If you build something sub-standard in construction it goes through several approval stages, so might not even make it to completion. If it does get through this process undetected, and is later found out, then the persons responsible are liable to fines and in some cases imprisonment. Now I'm not saying we should police web design and development in quite the same way - it would be almost impossible to do, and would serve little purpose. Now we are getting to the core of it! What we need is ISO standardisation for web development! Something like the famous ISO 9000. Quality Control! If you want to be a Quality Accredited web development business, you need to follow a strict line of internationally recognised standards. Of course you can go off track and do the usual shabby invalid HTML crap, but for the serious people an ISO is the perfect solution. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
