Re: tabs - was[WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

2011-12-31 Thread coder
- Original Message - From: Patrick H. Lauke re...@splintered.co.uk To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011 8:39 PM Subject: Re: tabs - was[WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites Again, let me turn this discussion around once more. Explain to us

RE: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

2011-12-30 Thread Elizabeth Spiegel
] Expected behaviour of links to external websites On 12/29/2011 01:02 PM, coder wrote: I had an awful job getting her to understand what [a browser was], but eventually she explained : I use my e. This was subsequently clarified by the explanation that she meant the small blue thing at the bottom

Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

2011-12-30 Thread coder
Brilliantly put Janice! Bob - Original Message - From: Janice Schwarz jan...@geekartist.net To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2011 8:28 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites There are still many people that have not used

Re: tabs - was[WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

2011-12-30 Thread coder
I just wonder what the view of some 'anti-new windows' folk is towards using tabs? I would have thought that tabs are the new 'new windows'?? And doesn't the popularity of tabs imply that users do like to have more than one page 'on the go' instead of doing a lot of back and forwarding? I am

Re: tabs - was[WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

2011-12-30 Thread Reactivo Química Visual
With the popularization of tab based navigation, opening new windows is much less of a hassle in desktop enviroments. It's easier keep track of your way. In mobile systems such as tablets or mobile browsers, it still is somewhat annoying. 2011/12/30 coder co...@gwelanmor-internet.co.uk I just

Re: tabs - was[WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

2011-12-30 Thread Rob Crowther
On 30/12/2011 12:32, coder wrote: I just wonder what the view of some 'anti-new windows' folk is towards using tabs? I would have thought that tabs are the new 'new windows'?? They're still *my* tabs. I'll open a new one when I want to, not when you want to. Rob

Re: tabs - was[WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

2011-12-30 Thread coder
- Original Message - From: Rob Crowther robe...@boogdesign.com To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011 2:40 PM Subject: Re: tabs - was[WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites On 30/12/2011 12:32, coder wrote: I just wonder what the view of some

Re: tabs - was[WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

2011-12-30 Thread Patrick H. Lauke
On 30/12/2011 17:32, coder wrote: You just aren't getting this, are you Rob. We're talking about what you do if you don't know there are options. Again, let me turn this discussion around once more. Explain to us WHY you feel that it's important that your site open links in new tabs, rather

Re: tabs - was[WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

2011-12-30 Thread Tom Livingston
On Dec 30, 2011, at 3:39 PM, Patrick H. Lauke re...@splintered.co.uk wrote: On 30/12/2011 17:32, coder wrote: You just aren't getting this, are you Rob. We're talking about what you do if you don't know there are options. Again, let me turn this discussion around once more. Explain to us

Re: tabs - was[WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

2011-12-30 Thread Rob Crowther
On 30/12/11 17:32, coder wrote: You just aren't getting this, are you Rob. I beg to differ. We're talking about what you do if you don't know there are options. I provided you links to advice based on research with real users, they advocated against opening new windows because it confuses

Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

2011-12-29 Thread coder
- Original Message - From: Patrick H. Lauke re...@splintered.co.uk To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2011 11:54 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites Can I just turn this around? To those on this discussion so adamant

Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

2011-12-29 Thread Patrick H. Lauke
On 29/12/2011 18:02, coder wrote: I don't say having windows all over the place is something great per se, but I do say that for most applications on a PC it is a emvery/em tidy and very convenient way of handling masses of data which is related (like my analogy of a web page in Dreamweaver or

Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

2011-12-29 Thread Patrick H. Lauke
What I'm still not getting from this whole discussion is: it seems that throughout the thread those of us opposed to launching new windows/tabs have had to justify why we're opposed to them. Can I just turn this around? To those on this discussion so adamant that popping up a new window is a

Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

2011-12-29 Thread Hassan Schroeder
On 12/29/11 8:55 AM, Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis wrote: FWIW Apple do provide guidance for how windows in OS X are supposed to work: http://developer.apple.com/library/mac/#documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/AppleHIGuidelines/Windows/Windows.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/2961-TPXREF21 Not sure

Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

2011-12-29 Thread Tom Ditmars
On 12/29/2011 01:02 PM, coder wrote: I had an awful job getting her to understand what [a browser was], but eventually she explained : I use my e. This was subsequently clarified by the explanation that she meant the small blue thing at the bottom of the screen. Let me add that this lady sits

Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

2011-12-29 Thread Hassan Schroeder
On 12/28/11 8:08 AM, Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis wrote: On Wed, Dec 28, 2011 at 12:49 PM, coderco...@gwelanmor-internet.co.uk wrote: SO you mean that mr Dreamweaver programmer, or Mr outlook, etc etc . . . shouldn't do it either? Since they aren't navigating hypermedia, I'm not sure that's

Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

2011-12-29 Thread Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis
On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 3:25 PM, Hassan Schroeder has...@webtuitive.com wrote: On 12/28/11 8:08 AM, Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis wrote: [snip] Since they aren't navigating hypermedia, I'm not sure that's comparable. But typically you have a fine degree of user control of the opening of new windows

Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

2011-12-29 Thread Janice Schwarz
On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 1:31 PM, Tom Ditmars zar...@zarggg.net wrote: On 12/29/2011 01:02 PM, coder wrote: I had an awful job getting her to understand what [a browser was], but eventually she explained : I use my e. This was subsequently clarified by the explanation that she meant the small

Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

2011-12-29 Thread Hassan Schroeder
On 12/29/11 11:31 AM, Tom Ditmars wrote: I would dare to venture that the world has reached a point where knowing about things like tabs or right-clicking should be expected. The World Wide Web has existed for nearly 20 years. Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings... :-)

Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

2011-12-29 Thread Rob Crowther
On 29/12/11 17:53, Hassan Schroeder wrote: Why should *web apps* be unconditionally constrained from the same context-driven behavior? You ask an interesting question: are we talking about web apps or web sites? Does the answer make a difference? Can a user tell the difference? Rob

Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

2011-12-29 Thread Rob Crowther
On 29/12/11 18:02, coder wrote: Most people don't even know what a back button is! Apparently most people do: The Back button is the lifeline of the Web user and the second-most used navigation feature (after following hypertext links). http://www.useit.com/alertbox/990530.html Though I

Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

2011-12-28 Thread coder
What fascinates me (still) is that a PC (laptop, whatever) works by displaying many windows. Hell fire, the OS is called 'windows' . . . (unless you are a fruit fan). All the common programs employ 'several' windows to make their functionality easier to handle (just look at Dreamweaver or any

Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

2011-12-28 Thread Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis
On Wed, Dec 28, 2011 at 9:39 AM, coder co...@gwelanmor-internet.co.uk wrote: What fascinates me (still) is that a PC (laptop, whatever) works by displaying many windows. Hell fire, the OS is called 'windows' . . . (unless you are a fruit fan). All the common programs employ 'several' windows to

Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

2011-12-28 Thread coder
behaviour of links to external websites On Wed, Dec 28, 2011 at 9:39 AM, coder co...@gwelanmor-internet.co.uk wrote: What fascinates me (still) is that a PC (laptop, whatever) works by displaying many windows. Hell fire, the OS is called 'windows' . . . (unless you are a fruit fan). All

Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

2011-12-28 Thread Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis
On Wed, Dec 28, 2011 at 12:49 PM, coder co...@gwelanmor-internet.co.uk wrote: SO you mean that mr Dreamweaver programmer, or Mr outlook, etc etc . . . shouldn't do it either? Since they aren't navigating hypermedia, I'm not sure that's comparable. But typically you have a fine degree of user

Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

2011-12-28 Thread Oliver Boermans
This subject and me have some history so please excuse me if I get a little ranty. I’ll do my level best to be rational and on topic. Here goes… To my mind this comes down to a very simple question: What will the user of the website (or piece of software) you are building expect to happen when

Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

2011-12-28 Thread Lea de Groot
On 28/12/11 7:39 PM, coder wrote: So, why do some folk think that's OK, but if you are using a browser it's awful? I think it comes down to predictability. The various programs mentioned open new windows in a predictable pattern - one knows when a new window will open. Websites open windows

Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

2011-12-27 Thread MJ Ray
Hassan Schroeder has...@webtuitive.com On 12/23/11 11:12 AM, MJ Ray wrote: No - it switches on a second browser viewport, either above or below the first one. ? above or below? Not sure we're talking about the same thing. Or at least I wouldn't describe it in those terms. Ah, now, what

Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

2011-12-27 Thread Hassan Schroeder
On 12/27/11 11:26 AM, MJ Ray wrote: Help and confirmation pop-ups are very much special cases. Heh, it's always about the special cases :-) What is a continuation of the content, though? I wonder if the crux of the argument here is that some of us (maybe the longer-serving webmasters?)

Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

2011-12-23 Thread matt andrews
On 20 December 2011 13:09, Alex Mironov alexmiro...@graphicdesignservices.ato.gov.au wrote: [snip] I was wondering if anyone had any views/resources as to whether users should remain in the same window or should be taken to a new window/tab when they click on an external link? Short answer:

Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

2011-12-23 Thread Hassan Schroeder
On 12/22/11 4:06 PM, m...@phonecoop.coop wrote: Hassan Schroederhas...@webtuitive.com Regardless -- for the vocal objectors, do the same objections apply to opening a new tab? Pretty much. That's just a smaller version of the same problem. Think of it this way: when you change channel on the

Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

2011-12-23 Thread MJ Ray
Hassan Schroeder has...@webtuitive.com On 12/22/11 4:06 PM, m...@phonecoop.coop wrote: Hassan Schroederhas...@webtuitive.com Regardless -- for the vocal objectors, do the same objections apply to opening a new tab? Pretty much. That's just a smaller version of the same problem.

Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

2011-12-23 Thread Hassan Schroeder
On 12/23/11 11:12 AM, MJ Ray wrote: Not only crazy, but the Worst Analogy EVAR :-) Rubbish - I've done far worse before. I sit corrected - your powers are te awesum :-) Opening a new tab does nothing like switch on a second computer. No - it switches on a second browser viewport, either

Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

2011-12-22 Thread mjr
Hassan Schroeder has...@webtuitive.com Regardless -- for the vocal objectors, do the same objections apply to opening a new tab? Pretty much. That's just a smaller version of the same problem. Think of it this way: when you change channel on the tv, you expect it to change channel, not switch

Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

2011-12-21 Thread Rob Crowther
On 20/12/2011 23:44, Chris Price wrote: One advantage I can see in opening a new window (on a larger screen at least) is you can dismiss the page by closing that window rather than feeling you are being taken somewhere you don't want to go. Is this context sensitive? Yes it is context

Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

2011-12-21 Thread MJ Ray
Janice Schwarz jan...@geekartist.net On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 11:42 AM, MJ Ray m...@phonecoop.coop wrote: I'm pretty sure there is no such standard preventing mobile phones from opening new windows because my aging nokia e90 can do it (since one of the early upgrades - move to the link, left

Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

2011-12-21 Thread coder
they've got a choice, and what happens depends upon what the designer has coded. Bob - Original Message - From: Rob Crowther robe...@boogdesign.com To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2011 11:11 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

2011-12-21 Thread Patrick H. Lauke
On 21/12/2011 12:16, coder wrote: In one sense, this argument is fallacious, because whatever the web designer does decides what happens when a user just 'clicks a link'. In my experience, most folk 'out there' don't know about right clicking. To say 'it is the user's choice' is mainly untrue,

Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

2011-12-21 Thread David Hucklesby
On 12/21/11 5:04 AM, Patrick H. Lauke wrote: On 21/12/2011 12:16, coder wrote: In one sense, this argument is fallacious, because whatever the web designer does decides what happens when a user just 'clicks a link'. In my experience, most folk 'out there' don't know about right clicking. To say

Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

2011-12-21 Thread Patrick H. Lauke
On 21/12/2011 17:14, David Hucklesby wrote: Excellent points. If your reason for wanting to open a new window or tab is to be helpful, I suggest telling your visitors about the right-click option right there on your web page. Ah, but then do you also need explain about tap-and-hold context

Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

2011-12-21 Thread Keith Steinacher
Please remove me from the WSG mail-serv. I am no longer in the Website business. Thank you for your support in the past. God Bless, Keith Steinacher Chief Bottle-Washer On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 11:35 AM, Patrick H. Lauke re...@splintered.co.uk wrote: On 21/12/2011 17:14, David Hucklesby

Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

2011-12-21 Thread David Hucklesby
On 12/21/11 9:35 AM, Patrick H. Lauke wrote: On 21/12/2011 17:14, David Hucklesby wrote: Excellent points. If your reason for wanting to open a new window or tab is to be helpful, I suggest telling your visitors about the right-click option right there on your web page. Ah, but then do you

Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

2011-12-21 Thread coder
, December 21, 2011 5:14 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites Excellent points. If your reason for wanting to open a new window or tab is to be helpful, I suggest telling your visitors about the right-click option right there on your web page. If a link does open

Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

2011-12-21 Thread Hassan Schroeder
On 12/19/11 6:09 PM, Alex Mironov wrote: Muchof my research suggests that the recommended practice is to keep people within the same window/tab except in some instances. Most of the responses to this seem to focus on the evils of opening a new *window*. I'm under the impression that Webkit

Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

2011-12-21 Thread Patrick H. Lauke
On 21/12/2011 19:44, Hassan Schroeder wrote: On 12/19/11 6:09 PM, Alex Mironov wrote: Muchof my research suggests that the recommended practice is to keep people within the same window/tab except in some instances. Most of the responses to this seem to focus on the evils of opening a new

Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

2011-12-21 Thread Felix Miata
On 2011/12/21 12:16 (GMT) coder composed: In my experience, most folk 'out there' don't know about right clicking. To say 'it is the user's choice' is mainly untrue, because he/she doesn't know they've got a choice The same situation exists here as with text size control. Just because a user

Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

2011-12-20 Thread MJ Ray
Grant Bailey grant_malcolm_bai...@westnet.com.au If the link is to an external site then personally, I prefer the link to open in a new window automatically. Also, not all devices make it easy for users to open a link in a new window on request. Such devices are buggy and should be repaired,

Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

2011-12-20 Thread Janice Schwarz
On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 5:57 AM, MJ Ray m...@phonecoop.coop wrote: Grant Bailey grant_malcolm_bai...@westnet.com.au If the link is to an external site then personally, I prefer the link to open in a new window automatically. Also, not all devices make it easy for users to open a link in a

Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

2011-12-20 Thread MJ Ray
Janice Schwarz jan...@geekartist.net On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 5:57 AM, MJ Ray m...@phonecoop.coop wrote: [devices that can't open new windows] Such devices are buggy and should be repaired, then.  Don't degrade the web for everyone else because a few devices are buggy. To my knowledge,

Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

2011-12-20 Thread Janice Schwarz
On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 11:42 AM, MJ Ray m...@phonecoop.coop wrote: Janice Schwarz jan...@geekartist.net On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 5:57 AM, MJ Ray m...@phonecoop.coop wrote: [devices that can't open new windows] Such devices are buggy and should be repaired, then.  Don't degrade the web

Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

2011-12-20 Thread Chris Price
I followed your useit link and the article was so good I wanted to share it via Linkedin and Twitter. I ended up having several windows opening, I had little idea what was going on and often didn't know why I had arrived where I had. Since then I've found 2 floating open windows and am still not

[WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

2011-12-19 Thread Alex Mironov
Hi I have been doing some research on expected behaviour of clicking on links from within a website to other external websites. Much of my research suggests that the recommended practice is to keep people within the same window/tab except in some instances. This gives users maximum control as

Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

2011-12-19 Thread Grant Bailey
Alex, If the link is to an external site then personally, I prefer the link to open in a new window automatically. Also, not all devices make it easy for users to open a link in a new window on request. Regards, Grant Bailey On 20/12/2011 1:09 PM, Alex Mironov wrote: Hi I have been doing

Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

2011-12-19 Thread Felix Miata
On 2011/12/20 15:42 (GMT+1100) Grant Bailey composed: If the link is to an external site then personally, I prefer the link to open in a new window automatically. Also, not all devices make it easy for users to open a link in a new window on request. I detest pages that think it's their

Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

2011-12-19 Thread Mathew Robertson
Of course that will break everyone with a device that limits the number of browser instances, as your device will probably expunge instances that haven't been used recently - which is rather a pity as I like to keep instances open so that I can go back to them. If I really wanted to expunge an

Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

2011-12-19 Thread Phil Archer
As a matter of policy, all links on w3.org open in the same window. The reasons for this are, as some have already alluded to: - the user remains in control and can choose to open in a new tab/window or not; - mobile devices, even where they support multiple windows, don't display the tabs