RE: [WSG] H1 and the img tag

2008-08-26 Thread michael.brockington
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Sam Sherlock
Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 2:17 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] H1 and the img tag



ok - seo is a bit like voodoo to me

the following sites seem to be contray to  suggestion

http://wordpress.org/  .com - h1 with text-indent: -1000px
http://www.alistapart.com - h1 with img alt text same on various
pages - a duplicate on all pages (AFAIS)
http://www.zeldman.com - h1 with text-indent: -1000px

Also I see plenty of sites that are marking the logo in a div
rather than a h1 (Shaun Inman  Todd Dominey) ie in accordance with the
suggestions with Henrik's link and Darren's

or am I looking at something the wrong way. Its late, my quick
investigation maybe a little rash (perhaps I am jumping to conclusions)
- anyway the more I see the more verity I find and more confused I get

- S
 

 SEO _is_ voodoo. Never trust anyone who tells you that technique X is
better for SEO than technique Y, (unless their name is Matt Cutts)
 
Absolute answers to questions like this are not available; they are
closely guarded secrets, will vary between different engines, and more
importantly, will vary over time. If you want to do things the most
accessible way, that is great, but don't let SEO rumours over-ride
standards  accessibility.
 
Regards,
Mike
Mike Brockington
Web Development Specialist

www.calcResult.com
www.stephanieBlakey.me.uk
www.edinburgh.gov.uk

This message does not reflect the opinions of any entity other than the
author alone. 



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[WSG] H1 and the img tag

2008-08-25 Thread Schalk Neethling

Hi there everyone,

I was wondering. There is a general practice to use text replacement 
when it comes to company logo's on websites. If one does not want to use 
this practice, would there be any objection to wrapping the company logo 
image with an H1 one tag?


I am thinking of this more in terms of the front page, on inner pages I 
would think the main topic of the page is the one that should be marked 
up with H1.


What is your thoughts and would you recommend image replacement instead?

Kind Regards,
Schalk


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RE: [WSG] H1 and the img tag

2008-08-25 Thread Paul Bennett
Hi Schalk,

Glad you raised this.
We built a new section of our site a while ago which required different 
treatment from our normal text h1's. I looked at the image replacement route 
and found the approaches kludgy and overwrought.
I ended up doing exactly what you said:

h1a img src= alt=Page Heading ../h1

Looks fine, and the pages revert back to the standard h1 text style when images 
are off.
You can see the results here:
http://tinyurl.com/5b3bwg

The image inside the h1 is simple, accessible and effective. Go with your gut :)

Paul


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Re: [WSG] H1 and the img tag

2008-08-25 Thread Michael Turnwall




You can just use text-indent to move the text off the screen and then
put a background image into the H1 tag.

-- 
Michael
Turnwall
for all
your web code needs
turnwall.net



Schalk Neethling wrote:
Hi
there everyone,
  
  
I was wondering. There is a general practice to use text replacement
when it comes to company logo's on websites. If one does not want to
use this practice, would there be any objection to wrapping the company
logo image with an H1 one tag?
  
  
I am thinking of this more in terms of the front page, on inner pages I
would think the main topic of the page is the one that should be marked
up with H1.
  
  
What is your thoughts and would you recommend image replacement
instead?
  
  
Kind Regards,
  
Schalk
  
  
  
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RE: [WSG] H1 and the img tag

2008-08-25 Thread Conyers, Dwayne
Schalk Neethling [EMAIL PROTECTED] ink wired:

 There is a general practice to use text replacement
 when it comes to company logo's on websites.

Not sure if I follow.  Are you saying to use Proctor and Gamble rather than 
the PG logo?  I don't see why that would be necessary for any web site.  One 
can make an image tag accessible with alt and other metadata within the tag.

 would there be any objection to wrapping the
 company logo image with an H1 one tag?

Do you mean to put the image with a large text side-by-side?  One can do that I 
would imagine, but no one will knock down your door with a warrant if you do 
any of the aforementioned.

Or, have I missed the point entirely?

--
I made magic once.  Now, the sofa is gone.
http://blog.dwacon.com


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Re: [WSG] H1 and the img tag

2008-08-25 Thread Schalk Neethling

Thanks Paul,

Makes sense to me as well.

Regards,
Schalk

Paul Bennett wrote:

Hi Schalk,

Glad you raised this.
We built a new section of our site a while ago which required different 
treatment from our normal text h1's. I looked at the image replacement route 
and found the approaches kludgy and overwrought.
I ended up doing exactly what you said:

h1a img src= alt=Page Heading ../h1

Looks fine, and the pages revert back to the standard h1 text style when images 
are off.
You can see the results here:
http://tinyurl.com/5b3bwg

The image inside the h1 is simple, accessible and effective. Go with your gut :)

Paul


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Re: [WSG] H1 and the img tag

2008-08-25 Thread Schalk Neethling

Hi all,

BTW, for those interested I am using the website at 
http://www.volume4.com/ as a case study in progressive enhancement and 
graceful degradation.


Your feedback is much appreciated.

Regards,
Schalk

Paul Bennett wrote:

Hi Schalk,

Glad you raised this.
We built a new section of our site a while ago which required different 
treatment from our normal text h1's. I looked at the image replacement route 
and found the approaches kludgy and overwrought.
I ended up doing exactly what you said:

h1a img src= alt=Page Heading ../h1

Looks fine, and the pages revert back to the standard h1 text style when images 
are off.
You can see the results here:
http://tinyurl.com/5b3bwg

The image inside the h1 is simple, accessible and effective. Go with your gut :)

Paul


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RE: [WSG] H1 and the img tag

2008-08-25 Thread Paul Bennett
Hi Michael,

While that is possible, unfortunately the h1 text doesn't display when images 
are off and css is still in use.
This is the issue many image replacement techniques sought to address.

Paul


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RE: [WSG] H1 and the img tag

2008-08-25 Thread Darren Lovelock
I'm not understanding why you would use a logo/img as an h1 tag? Unless you
wanted to use a nice anti-aliased font for the h1 text? If that's the case
then I would just use sifr. 

SEO-wise you could only implement this on the homepage, otherwise you would
have a duplicated h1 on all your web pages (providing the image had the same
alt text). I wouldn't recommend using different alt text either when using
the same image sitewide, as search engines may see that as keyword stuffing.


I would keep them separate and have the alt text on the logo as your company
name. Then have unique h1's as normal text on each page.

I used to use a div with text in it for the logo, then css to add a
background image and text indent to move the text off-screen. I changed back
to an img tag as the alt text is more powerful for SEO purposes. 

Darren Lovelock
Munky Online Web Design
http://www.munkyonline.co.uk
T: +44 (0)20-8816-8893


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Paul Bennett
Sent: 25 August 2008 23:07
To: 'wsg@webstandardsgroup.org'
Subject: RE: [WSG] H1 and the img tag

Hi Michael,

While that is possible, unfortunately the h1 text doesn't display when
images are off and css is still in use.
This is the issue many image replacement techniques sought to address.

Paul


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Re: [WSG] H1 and the img tag

2008-08-25 Thread Schalk Neethling
Thanks everyone for your feedback, it definitely gives me something to 
think about.


Regards,
Schalk

Darren Lovelock wrote:

I'm not understanding why you would use a logo/img as an h1 tag? Unless you
wanted to use a nice anti-aliased font for the h1 text? If that's the case
then I would just use sifr. 


SEO-wise you could only implement this on the homepage, otherwise you would
have a duplicated h1 on all your web pages (providing the image had the same
alt text). I wouldn't recommend using different alt text either when using
the same image sitewide, as search engines may see that as keyword stuffing.


I would keep them separate and have the alt text on the logo as your company
name. Then have unique h1's as normal text on each page.

I used to use a div with text in it for the logo, then css to add a
background image and text indent to move the text off-screen. I changed back
to an img tag as the alt text is more powerful for SEO purposes. 


Darren Lovelock
Munky Online Web Design
http://www.munkyonline.co.uk
T: +44 (0)20-8816-8893


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Paul Bennett
Sent: 25 August 2008 23:07
To: 'wsg@webstandardsgroup.org'
Subject: RE: [WSG] H1 and the img tag

Hi Michael,

While that is possible, unfortunately the h1 text doesn't display when
images are off and css is still in use.
This is the issue many image replacement techniques sought to address.

Paul


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Re: [WSG] H1 and the img tag

2008-08-25 Thread Henrik Madsen


I agree, beware SEO-wise.

If anyone's interested in seeing what black-hat SEOs are actually  
doing in this respect, read this:


http://www.igenerator.com.au/blog/2008/08/top-10-web-design-firms-use-black-hat-seo/





Henrik Madsen
Generator
+61 8 9387 1250

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.igenerator.com.au

On 26/08/2008, at 7:49 AM, Darren Lovelock wrote:

I'm not understanding why you would use a logo/img as an h1 tag?  
Unless you
wanted to use a nice anti-aliased font for the h1 text? If that's  
the case

then I would just use sifr.

SEO-wise you could only implement this on the homepage, otherwise  
you would
have a duplicated h1 on all your web pages (providing the image had  
the same
alt text). I wouldn't recommend using different alt text either when  
using
the same image sitewide, as search engines may see that as keyword  
stuffing.



I would keep them separate and have the alt text on the logo as your  
company

name. Then have unique h1's as normal text on each page.

I used to use a div with text in it for the logo, then css to add a
background image and text indent to move the text off-screen. I  
changed back

to an img tag as the alt text is more powerful for SEO purposes.

Darren Lovelock
Munky Online Web Design
http://www.munkyonline.co.uk
T: +44 (0)20-8816-8893


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]  
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On

Behalf Of Paul Bennett
Sent: 25 August 2008 23:07
To: 'wsg@webstandardsgroup.org'
Subject: RE: [WSG] H1 and the img tag

Hi Michael,

While that is possible, unfortunately the h1 text doesn't display when
images are off and css is still in use.
This is the issue many image replacement techniques sought to address.

Paul


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Re: [WSG] H1 and the img tag

2008-08-25 Thread Joey Grasso
Hey Man you got the wrong email address so you might want to double check
and re-send it to the person you intended on

On Mon, Aug 25, 2008 at 7:59 PM, Schalk Neethling
[EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote:

 Thanks everyone for your feedback, it definitely gives me something to
 think about.

 Regards,
 Schalk

 Darren Lovelock wrote:

 I'm not understanding why you would use a logo/img as an h1 tag? Unless
 you
 wanted to use a nice anti-aliased font for the h1 text? If that's the case
 then I would just use sifr.
 SEO-wise you could only implement this on the homepage, otherwise you
 would
 have a duplicated h1 on all your web pages (providing the image had the
 same
 alt text). I wouldn't recommend using different alt text either when using
 the same image sitewide, as search engines may see that as keyword
 stuffing.


 I would keep them separate and have the alt text on the logo as your
 company
 name. Then have unique h1's as normal text on each page.

 I used to use a div with text in it for the logo, then css to add a
 background image and text indent to move the text off-screen. I changed
 back
 to an img tag as the alt text is more powerful for SEO purposes.
 Darren Lovelock
 Munky Online Web Design
 http://www.munkyonline.co.uk
 T: +44 (0)20-8816-8893


 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Paul Bennett
 Sent: 25 August 2008 23:07
 To: 'wsg@webstandardsgroup.org'
 Subject: RE: [WSG] H1 and the img tag

 Hi Michael,

 While that is possible, unfortunately the h1 text doesn't display when
 images are off and css is still in use.
 This is the issue many image replacement techniques sought to address.

 Paul


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-- 
Joey Grasso
(678)362-4652


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Re: [WSG] H1 and the img tag

2008-08-25 Thread Sam Sherlock
ok - seo is a bit like voodoo to me

the following sites seem to be contray to  suggestion

http://wordpress.org/  .com - h1 with text-indent: -1000px
http://www.alistapart.com - h1 with img alt text same on various pages - a
duplicate on all pages (AFAIS)
http://www.zeldman.com - h1 with text-indent: -1000px

Also I see plenty of sites that are marking the logo in a div rather than a
h1 (Shaun Inman  Todd Dominey) ie in accordance with the suggestions with
Henrik's link and Darren's

or am I looking at something the wrong way. Its late, my quick investigation
maybe a little rash (perhaps I am jumping to conclusions) - anyway the more
I see the more verity I find and more confused I get

- S

2008/8/26 Henrik Madsen [EMAIL PROTECTED]


 I agree, beware SEO-wise.

 If anyone's interested in seeing what black-hat SEOs are actually doing in
 this respect, read this:


 http://www.igenerator.com.au/blog/2008/08/top-10-web-design-firms-use-black-hat-seo/




   http://www.igenerator.com.au Henrik Madsen
 *Generator*
 +61 8 9387 1250

 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 www.igenerator.com.au

 On 26/08/2008, at 7:49 AM, Darren Lovelock wrote:

 I'm not understanding why you would use a logo/img as an h1 tag? Unless you
 wanted to use a nice anti-aliased font for the h1 text? If that's the case
 then I would just use sifr.

 SEO-wise you could only implement this on the homepage, otherwise you would
 have a duplicated h1 on all your web pages (providing the image had the
 same
 alt text). I wouldn't recommend using different alt text either when using
 the same image sitewide, as search engines may see that as keyword
 stuffing.


 I would keep them separate and have the alt text on the logo as your
 company
 name. Then have unique h1's as normal text on each page.

 I used to use a div with text in it for the logo, then css to add a
 background image and text indent to move the text off-screen. I changed
 back
 to an img tag as the alt text is more powerful for SEO purposes.

 Darren Lovelock
 Munky Online Web Design
 http://www.munkyonline.co.uk
 T: +44 (0)20-8816-8893


 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Paul Bennett
 Sent: 25 August 2008 23:07
 To: 'wsg@webstandardsgroup.org'
 Subject: RE: [WSG] H1 and the img tag

 Hi Michael,

 While that is possible, unfortunately the h1 text doesn't display when
 images are off and css is still in use.
 This is the issue many image replacement techniques sought to address.

 Paul


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RE: [WSG] H1 and the img tag

2008-08-25 Thread Thierry Koblentz
 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Paul Bennett
 Sent: Monday, August 25, 2008 3:07 PM
 To: 'wsg@webstandardsgroup.org'
 Subject: RE: [WSG] H1 and the img tag
 
 Hi Michael,
 
 While that is possible, unfortunately the h1 text doesn't display when
images
 are off and css is still in use.
 This is the issue many image replacement techniques sought to address.

Not an issue with this one:
http://tjkdesign.com/articles/tip.asp


-- 
Regards,
Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com





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Re: [WSG] H1 and the img tag

2008-08-25 Thread Jon Warner
Situations like this I tend to have the normal img and a separate text 
in h1 then use one of several methods to move the h1 out of sight 
(someone mentioned indenting the text as one example). Degrades fine 
when no css as the h1 tag just appears in the order set in the html.


Jon Warner
www.thepixelforge.net

Schalk Neethling wrote:

Hi there everyone,

I was wondering. There is a general practice to use text replacement 
when it comes to company logo's on websites. If one does not want to 
use this practice, would there be any objection to wrapping the 
company logo image with an H1 one tag?


I am thinking of this more in terms of the front page, on inner pages 
I would think the main topic of the page is the one that should be 
marked up with H1.


What is your thoughts and would you recommend image replacement instead?

Kind Regards,
Schalk


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