Re: [WSG] IE hacking.

2006-03-20 Thread Alastair Steel

Hi All,

Thanks for your help it was useful.

I like the comment about the customer always being right. Perhaps  
this could be forwarded to Microsoft as I am a customer and have  
asked them to build a standards compliant browser and yet they have  
chosen to ignore me.


They are not aware of this insight obviously.

LOL.

Thanks again.


On 20/03/2006, at 5:06 PM, Laurie Savage wrote:


A little OT here, but

1) the client is always right seems a good place to start with a  
POTENTIAL client, and


2) Most people use IE and see no earthly reason not to, no matter  
what our opinion of it.


Your customers are not web designers and are quite reasonably  
uninterested in standards or design principals. They just want  
something that works (or in the case of IE, appears to work!).


Laurie

Alastair Steel wrote:

We now have a potential client that, for reasons beyond reason,  
wants to use IE. Any assistance appreciated. Thanks, Alastair.


--
Laurie Savage
=
Student Assessment, Reporting and Tracking
Pascoe Vale Girls College, 03 9306 2544
Lake Ave, Pascoe Vale, Victoria, 3044
=

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Re: [WSG] IE hacking.

2006-03-20 Thread Peter Ottery
re  Perhaps this could be forwarded to Microsoft as I am a customer and have
asked them to build a standards compliant browser and yet they have
chosen to ignore me.

I for one think Microsoft deserve massive kudos.
They *are* doing all they can to make IE7 a decent standards compliant browser.
Yeah, it was a while coming, but things could be worse.
pete o
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[WSG] IE hacking.

2006-03-19 Thread Alastair Steel
Hi all, We are an open source based software development company who deal mostly with SME businesses. We write mostly to the standards for CSS2 and deploy with Firefox, Mozilla or Safari. Not having to hack everything for IE has meant we can develop faster and cheaper. We now have a potential client that, for reasons beyond reason, wants to use IE. We have no intention of hacking the application for this purpose but may consider paying someone else who has the experience to do this for us. So my questions are?i/ Is it possible to just look at the CSS which controls the layout of the whole app and just hack that for them. This is preferable as each user has their own language file which calls their language and CSS. ii/ Or is it necessary to look at each page of the application (over 100) and hack the CSS to make them work? iii/ Or worst case scenario are there changes that may be required in the HTML. (I don't see why as everything that is to be displayed in the app is in a DIV and all DIVs are controlled with CSS).iv/ If we go to all the trouble for IE 6 will it all work in IE7. Or is this going to be a separate hack. I also need to work out the approximate costs of all the above so we can pass it on to the client. Any assistance appreciated.  Thanks, Alastair. 

Re: [WSG] IE hacking.

2006-03-19 Thread Laurie Savage

A little OT here, but

1) the client is always right seems a good place to start with a 
POTENTIAL client, and


2) Most people use IE and see no earthly reason not to, no matter what 
our opinion of it.


Your customers are not web designers and are quite reasonably 
uninterested in standards or design principals. They just want something 
that works (or in the case of IE, appears to work!).


Laurie

Alastair Steel wrote:

We now have a potential client that, for reasons beyond reason, wants to 
use IE. 

Any assistance appreciated. 

Thanks, 
Alastair.








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Laurie Savage
=
Student Assessment, Reporting and Tracking
Pascoe Vale Girls College, 03 9306 2544
Lake Ave, Pascoe Vale, Victoria, 3044
=

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Re: [WSG] IE hacking.

2006-03-19 Thread Lachlan Hunt

Alastair Steel wrote:
We are an open source based software development company who deal mostly 
with SME businesses. We write mostly to the standards for CSS2 and 
deploy with Firefox, Mozilla or Safari. Not having to hack everything 
for IE has meant we can develop faster and cheaper.


Do you at least test the sites in IE to make sure they degrade 
gracefully and are fully accessible and usable, even if it doesn't look 
perfect?


We now have a potential client that, for reasons beyond reason, wants to 
use IE.


If you could find out their reasons for choosing to stay with IE, I'm 
sure those of us involved with either marketing and/or developing 
Firefox (or any other browser) could use the information to address 
their needs better.  Of course, it's likely that Firefox does already 
addresses their needs better than IE does and they just don't know it yet.



So my questions are?
i/ Is it possible to just look at the CSS which controls the layout of 
the whole app and just hack that for them. This is preferable as each 
user has their own language file which calls their language and CSS.


Whoever does it would need to see your HTML templates, CSS and any 
relevant JavaScript that modifies the DOM in ways that affect the rendering.


ii/ Or is it necessary to look at each page of the application (over 
100) and hack the CSS to make them work?


As long as the templates cover all the different kinds of markup and 
styles used, they won't need to see all pages.


iii/ Or worst case scenario are there changes that may be required in 
the HTML. (I don't see why as everything that is to be displayed in the 
app is in a DIV and all DIVs are controlled with CSS).


There's nothing special about div elements, they're just like almost any 
other element, except that they have very little default styling. 
Besides, statements like that make me think you may be suffering from 
divitis (or div-mania).


It may be as simple as using Dean Edwards' IE7 script or it may be as 
complex as doing a complete CSS overhaul.  However it's done, I'd 
recommend you just use a conditional comment rather than modifying the 
existing style sheets that alread work for other browsers.


iv/ If we go to all the trouble for IE 6 will it all work in IE7. Or is 
this going to be a separate hack.


There's no guarantee that anything will work in IE7 until the site has 
been tested in it.  It may or may not require additional hacks.  It's 
entirely possible that IE7 won't require any hacks for the site to work, 
but you won't know until it's been tested.  (AFAIK, the first IE7 
preview that isn't a complete joke will be released in a couple of days 
after MIX 06.)


I also need to work out the approximate costs of all the above so we 
can pass it on to the client. 


That depends on how much work is required, which depends on how bad it 
looks in IE and how good or bad the existing markup and CSS is to work 
with.  I suspect that whoever offers to take on this work will need to 
see it before they can give such a quote.


--
Lachlan Hunt
http://lachy.id.au/
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