Re: [WSG] Javascript Accessibility
As someone who's on the working group producing ARIA, I have to say the editors have done a pretty remarkable job in terms of documenting a specification that hasn't even advanced past Working Draft. First, there's the spec itself: http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/ Then there's the User Agent Implementation Guide, for browser developers to follow: http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-implementation/ And the Best Practices Guide, for authors: http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices/ In addition, Steve Faulkner, also in the PFWG, has done lots of writing on the subject: http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/?cat=23 And Universal Design for Web Applications, the book I co-wrote with Wendy Chisholm, has a more basic introductory chapter on ARIA. The point is, it may not all have a W3C banner at the top, but generally speaking, W3C is more responsible for being complete and precise, than being prosaic. I expect that the Web Standards Curriculum is most likely to have author-friendly material on ARIA, and that's only when the spec is stable enough for general consumption. - m On 3/1/09 6:32 AM, David Dixon da...@terrainferno.net wrote: although the WAI ARIA team (as with the W3C in general) need to start producing more palatable documentation rather than just having huge technical manuals on the subject. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] Javascript Accessibility
Interesting blog entry by the creators of the Cappuccino project (http://cappuccino.org) on the subject on Web Accessibility vs JavaScript Availability: http://rossboucher.com/2009/02/26/accessibility-degradation-in-cappuccino Personally im in favour of the distinction he makes, but the expectation for the WAI ARIA team to contact _them_ to help their framework use it is rather unrealistic although the WAI ARIA team (as with the W3C in general) need to start producing more palatable documentation rather than just having huge technical manuals on the subject. Interested to know others thoughts on the subject. David -- David Dixon t: 07967 569 489 e: da...@digitaloasis.co.uk linkedin | http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidjdixon twitter | http://twitter.com/daviddixon *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] Javascript Accessibility
David, I think you are reading things differently to me. I don't know the authors true intention, but I read his words as being a call for anyone who wants to see ARIA implemented to join their team, not necessarily someone who is on the ARIA team. I do also agree with the sentiments though - there is an obvious need to treat 'applications' differently from 'content' in quite a number of ways, and at the moment there is not even a way to signal this explicitly. Regards, Mike -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of David Dixon Sent: 01 March 2009 14:33 To: li...@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Javascript Accessibility Interesting blog entry by the creators of the Cappuccino project (http://cappuccino.org) on the subject on Web Accessibility vs JavaScript Availability: http://rossboucher.com/2009/02/26/accessibility-degradation-in-cappuccin o Personally im in favour of the distinction he makes, but the expectation for the WAI ARIA team to contact _them_ to help their framework use it is rather unrealistic although the WAI ARIA team (as with the W3C in general) need to start producing more palatable documentation rather than just having huge technical manuals on the subject. Interested to know others thoughts on the subject. David *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Javascript Accessibility
David Dixon da...@terrainferno.net wrote: Interesting blog entry by the creators of the Cappuccino project (http://cappuccino.org) on the subject on Web Accessibility vs JavaScript Availability: http://rossboucher.com/2009/02/26/accessibility-degradation-in-cappuccino Personally im in favour of the distinction he makes, but the expectation for the WAI ARIA team to contact _them_ to help their framework use it is rather unrealistic although the WAI ARIA team (as with the W3C in general) need to start producing more palatable documentation rather than just having huge technical manuals on the subject. Interested to know others thoughts on the subject. Its been possible to do ARIA style accessibility since about 1995 - its just now that people are starting to care. Mathew Robertson *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Javascript Accessibility
michael.brocking...@bt.com wrote: David, I think you are reading things differently to me. I don't know the authors true intention, but I read his words as being a call for anyone who wants to see ARIA implemented to join their team, not necessarily someone who is on the ARIA team. Thanks Mike, t'was a fairly minor point, but yes i think you're interpretation of the request is more accurate than my initial one. David -- David Dixon t: 07967 569 489 e: da...@digitaloasis.co.uk linkedin | http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidjdixon twitter | http://twitter.com/daviddixon *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Javascript Accessibility
Mathew Robertson wrote: Its been possible to do ARIA style accessibility since about 1995 - its just now that people are starting to care. Mathew Robertson Before this question gets sidetracked, the request was for opinion on the position of the distinction of accessibility vs availability, not on WAI ARIA, apologies if the content of my original email didn't make this clear. My issue with ARIA is one of documentation, and would prefer deal with ARIA in a separate conversation. David -- David Dixon t: 07967 569 489 e: da...@digitaloasis.co.uk linkedin | http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidjdixon twitter | http://twitter.com/daviddixon *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] Javascript Accessibility - ARIA
Dude, that's a little unrealistic and a tad bitter: Its been possible to do ARIA style accessibility since about 1995 - its just now that people are starting to care. Personally I've been waiting for ARIA to come of age now both assistive technologies and browsers offer support. With the imminent release of IEv8 (with ARIA support) it's time to re-examine state of play. I'm interested in how's of implementation, and what's happening with W3C validation? Can it be used with XHTML v1.0 yet? Will it ever be? Does serving the page as text/html still have issues? Is there a fully usable Doctype yet? Is there a simple method to implement liveregion areas? Any news or thoughts greatly appreciated. Mike Foskett http://websemantics.co.uk/ -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Mathew Robertson Sent: 02 March 2009 10:03 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Javascript Accessibility David Dixon da...@terrainferno.net wrote: Interesting blog entry by the creators of the Cappuccino project (http://cappuccino.org) on the subject on Web Accessibility vs JavaScript Availability: http://rossboucher.com/2009/02/26/accessibility-degradation-in-cappuccin o Personally im in favour of the distinction he makes, but the expectation for the WAI ARIA team to contact _them_ to help their framework use it is rather unrealistic although the WAI ARIA team (as with the W3C in general) need to start producing more palatable documentation rather than just having huge technical manuals on the subject. Interested to know others thoughts on the subject. Its been possible to do ARIA style accessibility since about 1995 - its just now that people are starting to care. Mathew Robertson *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** This is a confidential email. Tesco may monitor and record all emails. The views expressed in this email are those of the sender and not Tesco. Tesco Stores Limited Company Number: 519500 Registered in England Registered Office: Tesco House, Delamare Road, Cheshunt, Hertfordshire EN8 9SL VAT Registration Number: GB 220 4302 31 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Javascript Accessibility
On 3/2/09 2:02 AM, Mathew Robertson mat...@optusnet.com.au wrote: Its been possible to do ARIA style accessibility since about 1995 - its just now that people are starting to care. Not sure what value you were hoping to add to the conversation, but MSAA, the Windows accessibility API, didn't come out until April 1997. And that much of what ARIA has to offer is actually enabled by the IAccessible2 or User Interface Automation APIs, which are much more recent and comprehensive. ARIA is a very ambitious spec, and a number of companies contributing to its support in a very short period of time, relative to the work that's necessary. But, thanks for the cynicism! We don't get enough of that on the Internet these days. :) - m *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Javascript Accessibility
Guys please, move this to a different topic, this ARIA issue has now clouded the original question. David -- David Dixon t: 07967 569 489 e: da...@digitaloasis.co.uk linkedin | http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidjdixon twitter | http://twitter.com/daviddixon Matt Morgan-May wrote: As someone who's on the working group producing ARIA, I have to say the editors have done a pretty remarkable job in terms of documenting a specification that hasn't even advanced past Working Draft. First, there's the spec itself: http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/ Then there's the User Agent Implementation Guide, for browser developers to follow: http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-implementation/ And the Best Practices Guide, for authors: http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices/ In addition, Steve Faulkner, also in the PFWG, has done lots of writing on the subject: http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/?cat=23 And Universal Design for Web Applications, the book I co-wrote with Wendy Chisholm, has a more basic introductory chapter on ARIA. The point is, it may not all have a W3C banner at the top, but generally speaking, W3C is more responsible for being complete and precise, than being prosaic. I expect that the Web Standards Curriculum is most likely to have author-friendly material on ARIA, and that's only when the spec is stable enough for general consumption. - m On 3/1/09 6:32 AM, David Dixon da...@terrainferno.net wrote: although the WAI ARIA team (as with the W3C in general) need to start producing more palatable documentation rather than just having huge technical manuals on the subject. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Javascript Accessibility
On 3/2/09 2:02 AM, Mathew Robertson mat...@optusnet.com.au wrote: Its been possible to do ARIA style accessibility since about 1995 - its just now that people are starting to care. But ARIA, as deployed by companies like Yahoo with its ARIA Menu [1] is very nice, but with JavaScript disabled there is a not-so-nice blank page. [1] http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/examples/menu/menuwaiaria_source.html Getting worked up over stuff like, for the average developer/designer is going to be as illogical and incongruous as ever. -- Al Sparber - PVII http://www.projectseven.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
