Re: [WSG] Leopard mail and standards

2007-10-27 Thread Al Sparber

From: Christian Montoya [EMAIL PROTECTED]


On 10/22/07, Al Sparber [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

From: Breton Slivka [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Have you tried outlook 2007 Lately? the way it reads/displays html has
 been THE issue ever since it was released.

No. I'd assumed it displayed the same as OE6 or Windows Mail (Vista).


A.. it doesn't. You should do a test and send us your results.


For the type of announcements we send out, the problems are minimal. In 
testing, we find that Font-family is not properly picked up and padding is 
junked. So this page, representative of our mailings, is acceptable and not, 
in our opinion worth the bother of hacking up:

http://www.projectseven.com/products/menusystems/pmm/style-packs/pmmsp/mail/

I guess the bottom line is to keep it simple. It's only an email. A bigger 
problem for html email senders is what happens when the page is viewed in 
some web-based mails.


--
Al Sparber - PVII
http://www.projectseven.com
Extending Dreamweaver - Nav Systems | Galleries | Widgets
Authors: 42nd Street: Mastering the Art of CSS Design





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Re: [WSG] Leopard mail and standards

2007-10-23 Thread Keryx Web

To everybody who has answered me in this thread:

1. I do realize that it is impossible to use perfect markup today, 
mainly because of the ghastly Outlook 2007. (A product I am boycotting 
BTW - but tell the to the mobile phone manufacturers. It syncs with 
Outlook is the ubiquitous sales pitch.)


2. I do realize that the rendering engine in use will be the same one as 
in Safari, which means really good CSS support but rather crappy (but 
improving) JS/DOM support (which is a non issue in mail, IMHO).


BUT: When I outlined the issues (accessibility, separation of concerns, 
valid code) my question was perhaps a bit too unspecific. Will they 
implement best practices as far as it is possible today. Will it be step 
in the right direction or yet another step away from it.


In my world its a sliding scale, not an either - or!


Lars Gunther


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[WSG] Leopard mail and standards

2007-10-22 Thread Keryx Web
When Outlook 2007 came out it incurred upon itself the righteous wrath 
of all standardistas thanks to the stupid decision to use Word as its 
HTML/CSS rendering engine.


In a few days Mac OS X Leopard will be out with much touted templates 
for the mail app. Here is my question: Are these made with standards, 
accessibility and separation of concerns in mind?



Lars Gunther


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RE: [WSG] Leopard mail and standards

2007-10-22 Thread Mohamed Jama
Although it's quite annoying but it does make some sense at some weird
level, having IE as their rendering engine with its shambled security it
was easy for a lot of spammers and hackers to inflect a lot of damage on
less experienced web users.

I actually think it was quite a good idea although its near impossible
nowadays to make it cross browsers decent newsletter and forget about
background images.

M. Jama

big:interactive
91 Princedale Road
Holland Park
London W11 4NS
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Direct: +44 (0)20 7313 2262
www.biggroup.co.uk

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Keryx Web
Sent: 22 October 2007 15:27
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Leopard mail and standards

When Outlook 2007 came out it incurred upon itself the righteous wrath 
of all standardistas thanks to the stupid decision to use Word as its 
HTML/CSS rendering engine.

In a few days Mac OS X Leopard will be out with much touted templates 
for the mail app. Here is my question: Are these made with standards, 
accessibility and separation of concerns in mind?


Lars Gunther


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Re: [WSG] Leopard mail and standards

2007-10-22 Thread Jason Pruim


On Oct 22, 2007, at 10:27 AM, Keryx Web wrote:

When Outlook 2007 came out it incurred upon itself the righteous  
wrath of all standardistas thanks to the stupid decision to use  
Word as its HTML/CSS rendering engine.


In a few days Mac OS X Leopard will be out with much touted  
templates for the mail app. Here is my question: Are these made  
with standards, accessibility and separation of concerns in mind?



Lars Gunther


Hi Lars,

Quoted from: HTTP://www.apple.com/macosx/features/mail.html:

Sincerely yours.
Mail for Leopard features more than 30 professionally designed  
stationery templates that make a virtual keepsake out of every email  
you send.


From invitations to birthday greetings, stationery templates feature  
coordinated layouts, fonts, colors, and drag-and-drop photo placement  
from your iPhoto library — everything to help you get your point  
across. You can even create personalized templates. Messages created  
with stationery in Mail use standard HTML that can be read by popular  
webmail services and email programs on both Mac computers and PCs.




Until it's actually released I'm not sure that anyone will be willing  
to say anything more then that since the people who know are under  
NDA's...




But it's only 4 days and 7 hours until the release :)






--

Jason Pruim
Raoset Inc.
Technology Manager
MQC Specialist
3251 132nd ave
Holland, MI, 49424
www.raoset.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]




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Re: [WSG] Leopard mail and standards

2007-10-22 Thread 8bits Media
It would seem odd if Apple went down the same path as Microsoft,  
especially since using Word to render HTML/CSS in Outlook 2007 was so  
well received by the web development community! I'm sure they won't  
want to be accused of following Microsoft.


Also, I have a feeling they wouldn't have bothered negotiating with  
Microsoft for the use of Word as their new rendering engine...


nick lazar
8bits Media
http://8bits.com.au



On 22 Oct 2007, at 15:59, Jason Pruim wrote:


On Oct 22, 2007, at 10:27 AM, Keryx Web wrote:

When Outlook 2007 came out it incurred upon itself the righteous  
wrath of all standardistas thanks to the stupid decision to use  
Word as its HTML/CSS rendering engine.


In a few days Mac OS X Leopard will be out with much touted  
templates for the mail app. Here is my question: Are these made  
with standards, accessibility and separation of concerns in mind?



Lars Gunther






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Re: [WSG] Leopard mail and standards

2007-10-22 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

Keryx Web wrote:
When Outlook 2007 came out it incurred upon itself the righteous wrath 
of all standardistas thanks to the stupid decision to use Word as its 
HTML/CSS rendering engine.


In a few days Mac OS X Leopard will be out with much touted templates 
for the mail app. Here is my question: Are these made with standards, 
accessibility and separation of concerns in mind?


I think it's fair to assume that it'll use Webkit as its rendering 
engine http://developer.apple.com/opensource/internet/webkit.html


P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
__
Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
__
Take it to the streets ... join the WaSP Street Team
http://streetteam.webstandards.org/
__


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Re: [WSG] Leopard mail and standards

2007-10-22 Thread Breton Slivka
Would you want the mail templates to use standards and seperation of
concerns? Last time I looked, it was well nigh impossible to get an
email that was standards based AND rendered properly in virtually
*any* email client.  Im sure they could have made the templates
standards based, in which case, the only people who would be able to
see them is other apple mail users. Since they advertise that they use
standard html that renders in any email client I would say that they
are probably a mess of inline css and tables, and possibly divs. Just
remember back to what the output of iWeb was like.

On 10/23/07, Patrick H. Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Keryx Web wrote:
  When Outlook 2007 came out it incurred upon itself the righteous wrath
  of all standardistas thanks to the stupid decision to use Word as its
  HTML/CSS rendering engine.
 
  In a few days Mac OS X Leopard will be out with much touted templates
  for the mail app. Here is my question: Are these made with standards,
  accessibility and separation of concerns in mind?

 I think it's fair to assume that it'll use Webkit as its rendering
 engine http://developer.apple.com/opensource/internet/webkit.html

 P
 --
 Patrick H. Lauke
 __
 re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
 [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
 www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
 http://redux.deviantart.com
 __
 Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
 http://webstandards.org/
 __
 Take it to the streets ... join the WaSP Street Team
 http://streetteam.webstandards.org/
 __


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Re: [WSG] Leopard mail and standards

2007-10-22 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

Breton Slivka wrote:

Would you want the mail templates to use standards and seperation of
concerns? Last time I looked, it was well nigh impossible to get an
email that was standards based AND rendered properly in virtually
*any* email client.  Im sure they could have made the templates
standards based, in which case, the only people who would be able to
see them is other apple mail users. Since they advertise that they use
standard html that renders in any email client I would say that they
are probably a mess of inline css and tables, and possibly divs. Just
remember back to what the output of iWeb was like.


But my point was: if it does use Webkit (rather than a monstrosity like 
Word's rendering engine), it can understand separation of concerns. 
Whether its factory-shipped templates are clean or not is secondary, in 
my view.


P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
__
Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
__
Take it to the streets ... join the WaSP Street Team
http://streetteam.webstandards.org/
__


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Re: [WSG] Leopard mail and standards

2007-10-22 Thread Breton Slivka
and my point was: Apple isn't advertising the templates as being only
viewable in Apple mail, it's advertising them as being viewable in
*any* mail client.

This implies that they do not have seperation of concerns, because
there's no standard of support for that.


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Re: [WSG] Leopard mail and standards

2007-10-22 Thread Breton Slivka
Apologies- I didn't mean my original post as a direct response to
patrick, merely a response to the thread.

On 10/23/07, Breton Slivka [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 and my point was: Apple isn't advertising the templates as being only
 viewable in Apple mail, it's advertising them as being viewable in
 *any* mail client.

 This implies that they do not have seperation of concerns, because
 there's no standard of support for that.



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Re: [WSG] Leopard mail and standards

2007-10-22 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

Breton Slivka wrote:

and my point was: Apple isn't advertising the templates as being only
viewable in Apple mail, it's advertising them as being viewable in
*any* mail client.

This implies that they do not have seperation of concerns, because
there's no standard of support for that.


Sorry, had to go back and re-read the thread starter. In rushing through 
my mail, I thought the question was more along the lines of will it 
support our carefully crafted HTML/CSS emails, but I see now that it 
specifically concerned the shipped templates. In which case yes, their 
templates will probably not follow full separation, simply because 
they'll have to actually work with Outlook.


P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
__
Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
__
Take it to the streets ... join the WaSP Street Team
http://streetteam.webstandards.org/
__


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Re: [WSG] Leopard mail and standards

2007-10-22 Thread Al Sparber

From: Patrick H. Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sorry, had to go back and re-read the thread starter. In rushing through 
my mail, I thought the question was more along the lines of will it 
support our carefully crafted HTML/CSS emails, but I see now that it 
specifically concerned the shipped templates. In which case yes, their 
templates will probably not follow full separation, simply because they'll 
have to actually work with Outlook.


I'm not entirely sure. The HTML/plain text announcements we send out are 
standards-based with one exception - we embed the CSS in the body section. 
These mails display perfectly in Outlook, OE, Windows Mail, Apple Mail, and 
Thunderbird. The problem with Outlook, I believe, is more to do with what it 
generates, rather than what it can read/display.


--
Al Sparber - PVII
http://www.projectseven.com
Extending Dreamweaver - Nav Systems | Galleries | Widgets
Authors: 42nd Street: Mastering the Art of CSS Design




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Re: [WSG] Leopard mail and standards

2007-10-22 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

Al Sparber wrote:
The problem with Outlook, I believe, is 
more to do with what it generates, rather than what it can read/display.


Haven't had a chance to play with the final product, but from what I 
remember it is indeed a fundamental problem with its display capabilities.


From 
http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2007/01/10/microsoft-breaks-html-email-rendering-in-outlook/


* no support for background images (HTML or CSS)
* no support for forms
* no support for Flash, or other plugins
* no support for CSS floats
* no support for replacing bullets with images in unordered lists
* no support for CSS positioning
* no support for animated GIFs

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
__
Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
__
Take it to the streets ... join the WaSP Street Team
http://streetteam.webstandards.org/
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Re: [WSG] Leopard mail and standards

2007-10-22 Thread Breton Slivka
 I'm not entirely sure. The HTML/plain text announcements we send out are
 standards-based with one exception - we embed the CSS in the body section.
 These mails display perfectly in Outlook, OE, Windows Mail, Apple Mail, and
 Thunderbird. The problem with Outlook, I believe, is more to do with what it
 generates, rather than what it can read/display.

 --
 Al Sparber - PVII
 http://www.projectseven.com
 Extending Dreamweaver - Nav Systems | Galleries | Widgets
 Authors: 42nd Street: Mastering the Art of CSS Design

Have you tried outlook 2007 Lately? the way it reads/displays html has
been THE issue ever since it was released.


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Re: [WSG] Leopard mail and standards

2007-10-22 Thread Christian Montoya
On 10/22/07, Al Sparber [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 From: Breton Slivka [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Have you tried outlook 2007 Lately? the way it reads/displays html has
  been THE issue ever since it was released.

 No. I'd assumed it displayed the same as OE6 or Windows Mail (Vista).

A.. it doesn't. You should do a test and send us your results.

-- 
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.net


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