Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part

2007-12-17 Thread Breton Slivka
Microsoft is and has undoubtedly used the coercive power of their
market dominance to interfere with OTHER businesses. What you are
presenting here is a double standard. You are saying that governments
(whose accountability is to the benefit of the public at large) should
not be allowed to interfere, while it's perfectly okay for a private
organization, (whose accountability is to its shareholders) to
interfere with other people's property. For the most part, yes,
healthy competition is a good thing, but the system can get sick, and
exploitive, and it's precisely that situation that the government
exists for to begin with- to protect the interests of the public.

And in this case, getting IE to support standards is to the benefit of
the public, because Microsoft is certainly impeding progress in this
field, much to the detriment of everyone, but to the benefit of its
own business. That my friend is private interfering with public, and
that's where your free market utopia falls down.



On Dec 17, 2007 1:17 PM, Michael Horowitz
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Again this isn't about supporting one company over another.  It's about
 using the coercive power of government to control someone elses private
 property (which is what a business is)

 I don't like a lot of how MSFT does things.  But they don't control the
 world.  Frontpage died while Dreamweaver dominates the web design
 market.  Not every website is developed in Visual Studio, some of us use
 PHP.
 Not every email is sent on an exchange server.

 I use Vista today and believe if MSFT keeps making such bloated OS's
 someone else will show up one day with a better mousetrap and MSFT will
 find itself losing market share in that area as well.

 Ask yourself where have you ever seen government controlled economies
 beat a free market one.

 Michael Horowitz
 Your Computer Consultant
 http://yourcomputerconsultant.com
 561-394-9079



 Christian Montoya wrote:
  On Dec 16, 2007 8:27 PM, Michael Horowitz
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  Look how Firefox has grown to 16% of the market.  I think that shows how
  you are not correct.  I also suspect that Open Office is going to start
  challenging Microsoft as well. Especially is MSFT succeeds with
  establishing good copy protection
 
 
  Didn't OOo file a complaint regarding Microsoft's Open XML format? I
  know they started a petition because Microsoft bucked their ODT format
  and came up with their own, which has been rammed through the
  standards approval process instead of ODT.
 
  So even Microsoft plays the standards system, and OOo appeals to the
  same powers-that-be as Opera.
 
  Do you follow the news about the companies you support?
 
 



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Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part

2007-12-17 Thread Rob Crowther

Michael Horowitz wrote:
In the free market their tends to be high and low quality products 


It's not a free market, it's a market for lemons.

Rob


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Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part

2007-12-17 Thread Andrew Maben

On Dec 16, 2007, at 9:17 PM, Michael Horowitz wrote:

Ask yourself where have you ever seen government controlled  
economies beat a free market one.


This is not about government CONTROL, but government REGULATION. And  
no they are not the same thing.


But this is (supposed to be) a web standards discussion, not a  
political ideologies discussion...


Andrew







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RE: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part

2007-12-17 Thread michael.brockington
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael Horowitz
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 2:18 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part


Ask yourself where have you ever seen government controlled 
economies beat a free market one.

Michael Horowitz



China? 

To over-simplify things dramatically, all Communist countries have come
into being as a result of gross mis-management by the previous
administrations. In the vast majority of cases, the communist regime has
turned out to be as corrupt as before, and have given no chance for the
economy to flourish. Whether or not that is an inevitable consequence is
way off-topic, but is certainly not a valid defence for democratic
governments to do nothing.

Mike


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Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part

2007-12-16 Thread Rob Crowther

Michael Horowitz wrote:

It would be a wonderful world.

I can't imagine how government does anything but lower standards in 
these areas.


Assuming you're being serious, I would love to hear your reasoning for 
this.  With most things even remotely technical now happily existing in 
a market for lemons, the general effect of a free market seems to be 
to lower quality to the lowest level allowed by law.  Where does the 
impetus for high standards come from in your imagined utopia?


Rob


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Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part

2007-12-16 Thread Michael Horowitz
Do you forcibly work for the government or do you offer your services in 
the free market?  Does your company hire the worst developers and 
designers or the best it can afford at the salary it is willing to pay.


In the free market their tends to be high and low quality products based 
on the price the buyer wishes to pay.  You can buy a Lexus or you can by 
Kia.  All transactions are between a willing buyer and seller.


I'd love Microsoft to follow standards, indeed I'm dealing with a IE bug 
right now that will probably be based on some standards violation, the 
question becomes should government be involved.



Michael Horowitz
Your Computer Consultant
http://yourcomputerconsultant.com
561-394-9079



Rob Crowther wrote:

Michael Horowitz wrote:

It would be a wonderful world.

I can't imagine how government does anything but lower standards in 
these areas.


Assuming you're being serious, I would love to hear your reasoning for 
this.  With most things even remotely technical now happily existing 
in a market for lemons, the general effect of a free market seems to 
be to lower quality to the lowest level allowed by law.  Where does 
the impetus for high standards come from in your imagined utopia?


Rob


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Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part

2007-12-16 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

Michael Horowitz wrote:

In the free market their tends to be high and low quality products based 
on the price the buyer wishes to pay.  You can buy a Lexus or you can by 
Kia.  All transactions are between a willing buyer and seller.


Only until you get to a situation of oligopoly or monopoly. Then, the 
quality of the product and its price often bear no relation. In that 
environment, products are not allowed to thrive on quality - even a 
remarkably better product can be squashed simply because of the 
stranglehold of the few or single dominant company/companies. Which, in 
the end, hurts the general consumer population as a whole, and can have 
ramifications that go far beyond just the market (politics, for instance).


But hey...Atlas shrugged, and so do I, as this isn't the right list for 
this sort of discussion. I'm just amazed that, for once, this wasn't 
triggered by the topic of accessibility...


P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
__
Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
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Take it to the streets ... join the WaSP Street Team
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Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part

2007-12-16 Thread Michael Horowitz
Look how Firefox has grown to 16% of the market.  I think that shows how 
you are not correct.  I also suspect that Open Office is going to start 
challenging Microsoft as well. Especially is MSFT succeeds with 
establishing good copy protection


Michael Horowitz
Your Computer Consultant
http://yourcomputerconsultant.com
561-394-9079



Patrick H. Lauke wrote:

Michael Horowitz wrote:

In the free market their tends to be high and low quality products 
based on the price the buyer wishes to pay.  You can buy a Lexus or 
you can by Kia.  All transactions are between a willing buyer and 
seller.


Only until you get to a situation of oligopoly or monopoly. Then, the 
quality of the product and its price often bear no relation. In that 
environment, products are not allowed to thrive on quality - even a 
remarkably better product can be squashed simply because of the 
stranglehold of the few or single dominant company/companies. Which, 
in the end, hurts the general consumer population as a whole, and can 
have ramifications that go far beyond just the market (politics, for 
instance).


But hey...Atlas shrugged, and so do I, as this isn't the right list 
for this sort of discussion. I'm just amazed that, for once, this 
wasn't triggered by the topic of accessibility...


P



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Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part

2007-12-16 Thread Christian Montoya
On Dec 16, 2007 7:06 PM, Michael Horowitz
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Does your company hire the worst developers and
 designers or the best it can afford at the salary it is willing to pay.

I just finished working for a company that would hire the worst
developers and designers. I think it was something called outsourcing.
So, yeah.

-- 
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.net


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Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part

2007-12-16 Thread Christian Montoya
On Dec 16, 2007 8:27 PM, Michael Horowitz
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Look how Firefox has grown to 16% of the market.  I think that shows how
 you are not correct.  I also suspect that Open Office is going to start
 challenging Microsoft as well. Especially is MSFT succeeds with
 establishing good copy protection

Didn't OOo file a complaint regarding Microsoft's Open XML format? I
know they started a petition because Microsoft bucked their ODT format
and came up with their own, which has been rammed through the
standards approval process instead of ODT.

So even Microsoft plays the standards system, and OOo appeals to the
same powers-that-be as Opera.

Do you follow the news about the companies you support?

-- 
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.net


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Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part

2007-12-16 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

Michael Horowitz wrote:
Look how Firefox has grown to 16% of the market.  I think that shows how 
you are not correct.


Aeh..you ARE aware of the various antitrust actions the government took 
to prevent MSFT from becoming an actual monopoly, don't you? Without 
government action in the past, the growth of Firefox, or any other such 
product, would have been difficult if not outright impossible. Of 
course, the playing field is still far from an idealised free market, 
but thanks to government checks and balances it's at least not at the 
level of tight stiffling oligopoly or monopoly.


Again, this isn't the right list to discuss libertarian utopia...

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
__
Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
__
Take it to the streets ... join the WaSP Street Team
http://streetteam.webstandards.org/
__


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Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part

2007-12-16 Thread Michael Horowitz
Again this isn't about supporting one company over another.  It's about 
using the coercive power of government to control someone elses private 
property (which is what a business is)


I don't like a lot of how MSFT does things.  But they don't control the 
world.  Frontpage died while Dreamweaver dominates the web design 
market.  Not every website is developed in Visual Studio, some of us use 
PHP. 
Not every email is sent on an exchange server. 

I use Vista today and believe if MSFT keeps making such bloated OS's 
someone else will show up one day with a better mousetrap and MSFT will 
find itself losing market share in that area as well.


Ask yourself where have you ever seen government controlled economies 
beat a free market one.


Michael Horowitz
Your Computer Consultant
http://yourcomputerconsultant.com
561-394-9079



Christian Montoya wrote:

On Dec 16, 2007 8:27 PM, Michael Horowitz
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  

Look how Firefox has grown to 16% of the market.  I think that shows how
you are not correct.  I also suspect that Open Office is going to start
challenging Microsoft as well. Especially is MSFT succeeds with
establishing good copy protection



Didn't OOo file a complaint regarding Microsoft's Open XML format? I
know they started a petition because Microsoft bucked their ODT format
and came up with their own, which has been rammed through the
standards approval process instead of ODT.

So even Microsoft plays the standards system, and OOo appeals to the
same powers-that-be as Opera.

Do you follow the news about the companies you support?

  



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Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part

2007-12-16 Thread Michael Horowitz

And see what happens to the company in the market.

6 months ago I was let go because my boss thought I was a threat to his 
job.  The company continues a spiral towards bankruptcy.  They are the 
oldest company in their business and their chief  competitor beats them 
every time they go head to head.  They only get the business that 
company doesn't want.  They are sued by their customers for incompetency 
on a regular basis. 

The free market does work.  It's ugly and messy, kinda like democracy.  
I'd be against it but nothing else works better. 


Michael Horowitz
Your Computer Consultant
http://yourcomputerconsultant.com
561-394-9079



Christian Montoya wrote:

On Dec 16, 2007 7:06 PM, Michael Horowitz
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  

Does your company hire the worst developers and
designers or the best it can afford at the salary it is willing to pay.



I just finished working for a company that would hire the worst
developers and designers. I think it was something called outsourcing.
So, yeah.

  



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Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part

2007-12-16 Thread Dylan Lindgren

Michael Horowitz wrote:

And see what happens to the company in the market.
The damage has already been done however. What happens when rather then 
it being a piece of software thats faulty, its a car. or a child's toy, 
or an aeroplane. Sure, eventually the company would get its just 
deserts, but only after the blood has been spilt. Government regulation 
is a necessary evil. It stops companies from taking advantage of a 
consumers lack of knowledge.


Dylan.


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ADMIN [THREAD CAUTION] Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part

2007-12-16 Thread Lea de Groot
Guys,

While the thread is interesting, do try to keep it on the topic of *web 
standards*.
Some of the points which are either off topic or verging there include:
- is Microsoft the boogey man?
- should the government implement standards.

The thread is still open, and it will stay that way if *you* stay on 
toopic!
:)

warmly,
Lea
-- 
Lea de Groot
WSG Core Member


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RE: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part

2007-12-15 Thread Frank Palinkas
To follow up on David's message to us, here's a video from Opera Watch
featuring Hakon Wium Lie (co-father of CSS and a principal owner of Opera) on
the subject at hand.

http://operawatch.com/news/2007/12/opera-cto-talks-about-the-operas-antitrust
-complaint-against-microsoft-video.html

My apologies to those who have already seen and heard this.

Kind regards,

Frank M. Palinkas
Microsoft M.V.P. - Windows Help
M.C.P., M.C.T., M.C.S.E., M.C.D.B.A., A+   
W3C HTML Working Group (H.T.M.L.W.G.) - Invited Expert
Senior Technical Communicator 
Web Standards  Accessibility Designer/Developer 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David Storey
Sent: Friday, 14 December, 2007 11:16 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part

I just one to make one point about this case clear (although I'm not  
involved in it in any way).  The complaint is manly about getting  
Microsoft to follow accepted web standards more closely, and isn't  
about money at all.  I believe we (Opera) have stated that we don't  
want to earn any money as a result of this complaint.  Hopefully this  
is not one of the cases where just lawyers win.

I'm hoping that IE8 comes out and surprises a lot of people with its  
level of standards support.  That would be a win for everyone.

David


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Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part

2007-12-15 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun

Al Sparber wrote:

[...]


Reducing the disparities is not the same as eliminating disparities. 
It is human nature to make mistakes. It's often the best way to 
learn.


Yes, it is. However, it is not human nature to make use of what they
have, or should have learned, if they can get away with their old
mistakes and maybe a few patches.
Just ask the IE7 team - or tear apart IE7 for a closer look.

This human factor is in part what's holding back all standard based
web development, as most of what's poured out as web sites today is
based on old mistakes and not standards. One can take any failing site
apart, and find that the main cause for failings in any somewhat
standard compliant browser is old and new designer mistakes which has
nothing to do with browser-bugs.


1. All browsers will always have some bugs


Yes.


2. Some users will always be browsers with an older version


Yes.

It is for these reasons that all browser makers need to provide 
developers with a means of eploying targeted workarounds.


For (users of) old versions, maybe, but certainly not for new ones -
unless one wants bugs to become permanent parts of particular browsers.
Since old browsers can't be retrofitted, we'll have to make use of some
kind of progressive enhancement or (dis)graceful degradation for those
anyway. Nothing new there, regardless of what the future brings.

MS has said they want old bugs to stick, apparently because they're
afraid they'll break the web otherwise. Thus, they have added ways for
us to work around their bugs when necessary ( = most of the time).
That's their strategy, and it'll probably work for them - but not
necessarily for us.

AFAIK: the developers of other major browsers want to find and get rid
of the bugs - any and all bugs, and don't want anyone to have to work
around them.
That's their strategy, and it sounds like a much better one
to me - even if human nature will prevent them from ever reaching
perfection.

In which way is it better to let developers send code specifically 
for fixing a bug, which creates a dependency of that code on the 
bug in question, than fixing the bug? If such dependencies are 
created, they make it harder to actually fix bugs.


That's a great philosophy for teachers and parents to have. It does 
not work so well, however, for businesses. The assumption, again, is 
that human nature is imperfect. Mistakes will always be made.


Mistakes should be corrected at the source - not covered, or else the
mistakes risk becoming a permanent part of the source - see IE/win.
Whether the source is a browser, or, as is more common: the site and its
developer(s), doesn't really matter when dealing with human
imperfections. How should one learn of ones mistakes if there's never
any need to correct them?

So long as there are more than one browser, there will be unique 
bugs. It's useless to talk about MSIE having lots of bugs because it 
only takes one bug to keep a developer up at night. The reason I like

conditional comments is that once I identify a fix for IE, I can fix
it in a fully insulated way and for specific versions.


Conditional comments in IE/win are fine, because no-one in their right
mind will use them to break that browser. Site-developers would lose
their jobs if they did.

I'm not so sure that human nature and job-security will save other
browsers from being intentionally broken though - plenty of examples
around already. Thus, from a browser-developer or browser-user's point
of view I'd call built-in targeting-means a death-trap for any serious
contender on the browser-market.

We all know the use, mis-use and abuse of browser sniffing, which have
lead to built-in cloaking of userAgent strings and lost value of an
otherwise perfectly good browser-ID. Any other built-in targeting-means
would need to have similar off-switches to defend against human
nature, which would make the whole targeting just as unreliable.

Consequently: I wouldn't go down that road for any price, even if it
might look like a good, short-term, solution.

I recognize differences of opinion here and am so glad that this 
discussion remains civil. The object is always better standards 
support. I can't change Opera's mind and while I disagree with their 
premise, I can only hope that as this thing runs its course there 
will be benefits for us web developers and a better window into the 
web for all users.


We agree on the objectives, so exchanging opinions on how to go about it
shouldn't lead to any side-tracking. I only want standards to be
properly supported across the board of new browsers, so I can develop
sites based on standards and not on browser-quirks. Fixing things in old
browsers provides enough fun to prevent death caused by boredom.

I'm looking forward to the day where we can rely on a perfect piece of
software to create the perfect missing link - generated page code -
between design and browsers/end-users, but that's probably a bit beyond
(X)HTML5, CSS3 and ES4 etc, and 

Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part

2007-12-15 Thread Steve Olive
On Sat, 15 Dec 2007 12:19:26 am Michael Horowitz wrote:
 I can't see why government should be enforcing standards.  Shouldn't
 that be a decision of private companies, developers and users not
 government?

 Michael Horowitz

Governments enforce and specify standards every day, that is what we elect 
them for. Can you imagine a world where car manufacturers, electricans, 
builders, drivers, etc were not forced to follow standards imposed by the 
government?

-- 
Regards,

Steve
Bathurst Computer Solutions
URL: www.bathurstcomputers.com.au
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Mobile: 0407 224 251
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Registered Ubuntu User #19586


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Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part

2007-12-15 Thread Michael Horowitz

It would be a wonderful world.

I can't imagine how government does anything but lower standards in 
these areas.


Lets fire every do nothing government regulator and give us our tax 
money back.



Michael Horowitz
Your Computer Consultant
http://yourcomputerconsultant.com
561-394-9079



Steve Olive wrote:

On Sat, 15 Dec 2007 12:19:26 am Michael Horowitz wrote:
  

I can't see why government should be enforcing standards.  Shouldn't
that be a decision of private companies, developers and users not
government?

Michael Horowitz



Governments enforce and specify standards every day, that is what we elect 
them for. Can you imagine a world where car manufacturers, electricans, 
builders, drivers, etc were not forced to follow standards imposed by the 
government?


  



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Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part

2007-12-15 Thread Matthew Cruickshank

Michael Horowitz wrote:


RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE



lol


.Matthew Cruickshank
http://holloway.co.nz/


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Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part

2007-12-14 Thread David Storey
I just one to make one point about this case clear (although I'm not  
involved in it in any way).  The complaint is manly about getting  
Microsoft to follow accepted web standards more closely, and isn't  
about money at all.  I believe we (Opera) have stated that we don't  
want to earn any money as a result of this complaint.  Hopefully this  
is not one of the cases where just lawyers win.


I'm hoping that IE8 comes out and surprises a lot of people with its  
level of standards support.  That would be a win for everyone.


David

On 14 Dec 2007, at 00:05, James Ellis wrote:


Hi

I read this on the Opera feed this morning, I'm not sure how it  
will proceed

but it mentions:

The complaint describes how Microsoft is abusing its dominant  
position by
tying its browser, Internet Explorer, to the Windows operating  
system and by

hindering interoperability by not following accepted Web standards

http://www.opera.com/pressreleases/en/2007/12/13/

I wonder what the flow on effects of this would be internationally  
rather than
just in the EU ? Of course there is the opinion that only lawyers  
win out of
arguments like this but it would defnitely be a more interesting  
playground

if IE wasn't bundled and supported accepted standards better.

Cheers
James


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David Storey
Chief Web Opener
Opera Software
Oslo, Norway

W: http://my.opera.com/dstorey
✉ : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
✆ : +47 24 16 42 26





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RE: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part

2007-12-14 Thread Chris Taylor
While I think the Opera complaint has firm ground to stand on, there's one 
thing in David's announcement to this group I'm unsure about.

 We think these actions are essential for the
 evolution of web standards and the open web,
 which Microsoft is hindering due to it's dominant
 market share controlling consumer choice in web
 browsers and trying to force web developers to
 adopt proprietary technologies and techniques (ie
 hacks, and things like Silverlight.)

Why was Silverlight included? As far as I am aware it's a plug-in much like 
Flash, so why would it be hindering the open web? Surely web developers have a 
choice whether to use that plug-in, just as they have the choice to use Flash. 
I'm not saying the IE/web standards thing is unfounded, but the Silverlight 
comment raises some concerns in my mind regarding Operas aims with this 
complaint.

Chris



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Storey
Sent: 14 December 2007 09:16
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part

I just one to make one point about this case clear (although I'm not
involved in it in any way).  The complaint is manly about getting
Microsoft to follow accepted web standards more closely, and isn't
about money at all.  I believe we (Opera) have stated that we don't
want to earn any money as a result of this complaint.  Hopefully this
is not one of the cases where just lawyers win.

I'm hoping that IE8 comes out and surprises a lot of people with its
level of standards support.  That would be a win for everyone.

David

On 14 Dec 2007, at 00:05, James Ellis wrote:

 Hi

 I read this on the Opera feed this morning, I'm not sure how it
 will proceed
 but it mentions:

 The complaint describes how Microsoft is abusing its dominant
 position by
 tying its browser, Internet Explorer, to the Windows operating
 system and by
 hindering interoperability by not following accepted Web standards

 http://www.opera.com/pressreleases/en/2007/12/13/

 I wonder what the flow on effects of this would be internationally
 rather than
 just in the EU ? Of course there is the opinion that only lawyers
 win out of
 arguments like this but it would defnitely be a more interesting
 playground
 if IE wasn't bundled and supported accepted standards better.

 Cheers
 James


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David Storey
Chief Web Opener
Opera Software
Oslo, Norway

W: http://my.opera.com/dstorey
✉ : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part

2007-12-14 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun

Al Sparber wrote:

From: Michael Horowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Personally I'm looking forward to buying computers with virtually 
nothing pre installed.  I always end up deleting most of it anyway.
 Alot of people start off by reinstalling the OS to get rid of all 
the junk the PC manufacturers put on.


I buy the boxes empty, and install what I want/need from scratch. Since
I happen to prefer MS-OSes for the time being, it would be nice if I
could get clean ones.

Indeed. But to bring it on-topic, I doubt very highly that Opera's 
motivation is standards.


Opera's motivation is unimportant. I don't think they'll get much out of
it anyway - apart from maybe a more leveled and standard-based
playing-field.

How the guardians of a relatively large market like the EU looks at,
and reacts to, how the players behave, may be of some importance.
Whatever the outcome, I doubt if it'll only affect us in the EU area -
and we Norwegians are not even regular EU-members :-)

If the unimaginable happened and MSIE8 were as standards-comformant 
as Opera, it would also be stronger in the marketplace. The best 
thing that could happen for standards-oriented web developers would 
be that all computers shipped with a single, extensible browser 
appliance with a standards-based module, managed and updated by an 
independent party, being the chief extension.


If it was delivered with an excellent standard-support module and were
truly extensible beyond that, then we would indeed have something very
near what could be described as the ideal platform for web development -
for a short while. I'm wondering how an independent party should be
defined and organized though, and how such a party should secure
progress. I do seriously doubt if such a solution would stay single
for long, and even that it is a good idea.


It's better that the industry wake up now because eventually someone
 is going to figure out that a browser is an appliance and the only 
thing it should be doing is supporting standards and sitting 
unobtrusively in the background acting as a window to the web.


Guess it would have to support plenty of non-standards too, since such a
small segment of the web is following standards - any standards. Leaving
out the larger part of the web because it isn't standard, isn't a
valid option. Standardizing non-standard rendering and behavior as part
of the main module, would be necessary, but we may get there too - one
day - before someone break too far out of the standards and the whole
game starts all over again.

regards
Georg
--
http://www.gunlaug.no


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Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part

2007-12-14 Thread Matthew Cruickshank
On Dec 14, 2007 8:41 PM, Chris Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Why was Silverlight included?
 As far as I am aware it's a plug-in much like Flash,
 so why would it be hindering the open web?

Of course I don't know why Opera has included Silverlight, but to speculate...

It might be because of something like this,

http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/roadmap/archives/2007/10/open_letter_to_chris_wilson.html

Silverlight has a subset of .Net's CLR called CoreCLR, and one could
argue that Microsoft are intentionally trying to stiffle the open
web[tm] while advancing Silverlight.


-- 
.Matthew Cruickshank
http://docvert.org/


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Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part

2007-12-14 Thread Gaspar
I just gonna say a few words...

I dont know and i dont care about laws, one thing iam sure if
microsoft could they just erase all other companys and all goes by
theres rules, i believe all companys do that.

The problem is that microsfot dont care about theirs users, dont care
if they could can use the software or not, they just want money money
money... and this is the problem

in legal ways we cant do nothing against, this is the Capitalism in full power.
sow lets fight, lets show all that they are and what they care about.

Congratz OPERA, u are there... iam gonna spam, iam gonna argue iam gonna blog...

u are not alone, for all hours that i lost, many, in try to get a nice
render in ie6, with alpha png and many many other things.

Thanks


On 14/12/2007, Michael Horowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I can't see why government should be enforcing standards.  Shouldn't
 that be a decision of private companies, developers and users not
 government?

 Michael Horowitz
 Your Computer Consultant
 http://yourcomputerconsultant.com
 561-394-9079



 Al Sparber wrote:
  From: Michael Horowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Personally I'm looking forward to buying computers with virtually
  nothing pre installed.  I always end up deleting most of it anyway.
  Alot of people start off by reinstalling the OS to get rid of all the
  junk the PC manufacturers put on.
 
  Indeed. But to bring it on-topic, I doubt very highly that Opera's
  motivation is standards. If the unimaginable happened and MSIE8 were
  as standards-comformant as Opera, it would also be stronger in the
  marketplace. The best thing that could happen for standards-oriented
  web developers would be that all computers shipped with a single,
  extensible browser appliance with a standards-based module, managed
  and updated by an independent party, being the chief extension. It's
  better that the industry wake up now because eventually someone is
  going to figure out that a browser is an appliance and the only thing
  it should be doing is supporting standards and sitting unobtrusively
  in the background acting as a window to the web.
 


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-- 
Make it simple for the people
--
http://www.artideias.com


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Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part

2007-12-14 Thread Michael Horowitz
I can't see why government should be enforcing standards.  Shouldn't 
that be a decision of private companies, developers and users not 
government?


Michael Horowitz
Your Computer Consultant
http://yourcomputerconsultant.com
561-394-9079



Al Sparber wrote:

From: Michael Horowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Personally I'm looking forward to buying computers with virtually 
nothing pre installed.  I always end up deleting most of it anyway.  
Alot of people start off by reinstalling the OS to get rid of all the 
junk the PC manufacturers put on.


Indeed. But to bring it on-topic, I doubt very highly that Opera's 
motivation is standards. If the unimaginable happened and MSIE8 were 
as standards-comformant as Opera, it would also be stronger in the 
marketplace. The best thing that could happen for standards-oriented 
web developers would be that all computers shipped with a single, 
extensible browser appliance with a standards-based module, managed 
and updated by an independent party, being the chief extension. It's 
better that the industry wake up now because eventually someone is 
going to figure out that a browser is an appliance and the only thing 
it should be doing is supporting standards and sitting unobtrusively 
in the background acting as a window to the web.





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RE: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part

2007-12-14 Thread michael.brockington
I presume it is okay with you then if MS starts up their own PC Support
business? Sorry 'Computer Consultancy'?

Assuming it is, do you mind if they then advertise it heavily, force
users to sign up to it before they can use Windows, undercut other
operators, etc. etc.?

It is precisely because Gov. recognises that it should not regulate
every aspect of normal business operations that it only steps in when a
de-facto monopoly is seen to be abusing its position. Which MS has
already been convicted of, repeatedly.

Mike
 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael Horowitz
Sent: Friday, December 14, 2007 2:46 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part



Does anyone really believe government officials have a better 
ability to run your business than you do?



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Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part

2007-12-14 Thread David Dorward


On 14 Dec 2007, at 14:42, Michael Horowitz wrote:

A monopoly is when government gives someone the ability to legally  
ban competitors.


That is a specific type of monopoly (a government-granted monopoly).  
Other types of monopoly exist.


It's not difficult to go to http://www.opera.com/download/ and get  
the opera browser.  If consumers choose not to do this I don't see  
a role for government.


In an environment where consumers have perfect information, then this  
is fine. The merits of the respective browsers would mean that  
consumers would choose whatever best suits them.


The market does not have perfect information though, very large  
numbers of consumers are either unaware of alternatives to Internet  
Explorer exist, or that there are benefits to switching.


--
David Dorward
http://dorward.me.uk/
http://blog.dorward.me.uk/




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RE: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part

2007-12-14 Thread michael.brockington
John Faulds wrote:
 I can't see that flying. Is anyone going to ask Apple to stop shipping

 their OS with Safari?

It may no longer be the case, (since there is no supported version
available) but Apple DID include Internet Explorer on all Apple Mac's,
even when Safari became available. What's more, it is perfectly possible
to remove it completely if required. If Apple were required to do so,
then I don't personally believe they would have much objection to
including Camino/FireFox as an optional install, and suggestions to the
contrary are merely a distraction from the main question, which is
whether MS should be allowed to abuse their dominant position to the
detriment of the general (un-educated) consumer. 
99% of this case has already been tried by the EU, with regard to Media
Player(s) so I strongly suspect this will be settled out of court.

Mike


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Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part

2007-12-14 Thread Felix Miata
On 2007/12/14 09:42 (GMT-0500) Michael Horowitz apparently typed:

 A monopoly is when government gives someone the ability to legally ban 
 competitors.

You've provided a rough definition of a legal monopoly. An entity convicted
of the felony of monopolistic predation as M$ has been falls into the
different and much more common traditional and illegal class of monopoly.
-- 
   Our Constitution was made only for a moral
and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to
the government of any other. John Adams

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

Felix Miata  ***  http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/


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Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part

2007-12-14 Thread Felix Miata
On 2007/12/14 08:19 (GMT-0500) Michael Horowitz apparently typed:

 I can't see why government should be enforcing standards.  Shouldn't 
 that be a decision of private companies, developers and users not 
 government?

In the absence of dominating monopoly, sure.
-- 
   Our Constitution was made only for a moral
and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to
the government of any other. John Adams

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

Felix Miata  ***  http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/


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Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part

2007-12-14 Thread Michael Horowitz
That is correct people go into business to make money. They do so by 
willing sellers selling to willing buyers and a price they willingly 
agree to.


Why do people by certain products, because they decided that product 
resolves their real world need.


The baker doesn't bake bread so you can eat, he bakes bread to make 
money.  You choose to buy the bread because you need to eat, and he 
needs to make a bread you want eat so you will buy it from him.  His 
motivation though is money and there is nothing wrong with that.


Does anyone really believe government officials have a better ability to 
run your business than you do?


Michael Horowitz
Your Computer Consultant
http://yourcomputerconsultant.com
561-394-9079



Gaspar wrote:

I just gonna say a few words...

I dont know and i dont care about laws, one thing iam sure if
microsoft could they just erase all other companys and all goes by
theres rules, i believe all companys do that.

The problem is that microsfot dont care about theirs users, dont care
if they could can use the software or not, they just want money money
money... and this is the problem

in legal ways we cant do nothing against, this is the Capitalism in full power.
sow lets fight, lets show all that they are and what they care about.

Congratz OPERA, u are there... iam gonna spam, iam gonna argue iam gonna blog...

u are not alone, for all hours that i lost, many, in try to get a nice
render in ie6, with alpha png and many many other things.

Thanks


On 14/12/2007, Michael Horowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  

I can't see why government should be enforcing standards.  Shouldn't
that be a decision of private companies, developers and users not
government?

Michael Horowitz
Your Computer Consultant
http://yourcomputerconsultant.com
561-394-9079



Al Sparber wrote:


From: Michael Horowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  

Personally I'm looking forward to buying computers with virtually
nothing pre installed.  I always end up deleting most of it anyway.
Alot of people start off by reinstalling the OS to get rid of all the
junk the PC manufacturers put on.


Indeed. But to bring it on-topic, I doubt very highly that Opera's
motivation is standards. If the unimaginable happened and MSIE8 were
as standards-comformant as Opera, it would also be stronger in the
marketplace. The best thing that could happen for standards-oriented
web developers would be that all computers shipped with a single,
extensible browser appliance with a standards-based module, managed
and updated by an independent party, being the chief extension. It's
better that the industry wake up now because eventually someone is
going to figure out that a browser is an appliance and the only thing
it should be doing is supporting standards and sitting unobtrusively
in the background acting as a window to the web.

  

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Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part

2007-12-14 Thread Michael Horowitz

So buy advertising.

Do you really think government officials are so tech savvy that they can 
make this type of decision.  Are you generally that impressed by the 
government officials you work with.


Yes consumers need to be educated. I typically install firefox on any 
customer I work with, if for no other reason, as a backup in case IE 
gets disabled from spyware.  It lets them continue to surf the web till 
I get there. 



Michael Horowitz
Your Computer Consultant
http://yourcomputerconsultant.com
561-394-9079



David Dorward wrote:


On 14 Dec 2007, at 14:42, Michael Horowitz wrote:

A monopoly is when government gives someone the ability to legally 
ban competitors.


That is a specific type of monopoly (a government-granted monopoly). 
Other types of monopoly exist.


It's not difficult to go to http://www.opera.com/download/ and get 
the opera browser.  If consumers choose not to do this I don't see a 
role for government.


In an environment where consumers have perfect information, then this 
is fine. The merits of the respective browsers would mean that 
consumers would choose whatever best suits them.


The market does not have perfect information though, very large 
numbers of consumers are either unaware of alternatives to Internet 
Explorer exist, or that there are benefits to switching.





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Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part

2007-12-14 Thread Michael Horowitz
You mean the way Dell and other PC makers bundle PC repair when they 
sell computers.


I get calls from people who have contracts with Dell for free PC 
repair.  I get the business when they call Dell support and they can't 
help them, tell them to reinstall the OS or send it back to Dell and 
they will look at it and get the computer back to them in a few weeks.  
I can offer my customers I will come out when they call me and fix the 
problem right the first time.   I don't compete with them with building 
computers.  They can do it cheaper than I can.  I miss that part of the 
market but should I sue them to have them increase their prices so I can 
compete?


This lawsuit was filed in Europe and not the US because Europe does 
micromanage businesses.


Microsoft wasn't the only game in town early in the computer race.  I 
remember only using Mac's in college and thinking how I would never use 
an IBM compatible computer because DOS was so annoying.  They received 
their market position because customers voluntarily bought their 
product.  People can choose to use other products, I'm sure their are 
people on this list who choose not to use Windows.


I am writing this email on Thunderbird not Outlook because I consider it 
a better email client. I was using firefox prior to IE 7 coming out 
because I liked tabbed browsing.  I still heavily use Firefox as part of 
web development because it has better tools for me to debug problems in 
web code which I need as someone newer to standards based web design.  
My wife programs in Lotus Notes and Cobol not .net  I use PHP not .Net 
because.  I host my websites on Unix servers not Windows 2003 Servers.  
Macintosh is the platform of choice for Visual Design professionals and 
getting an overall renaissance as a brand recently. All of this without 
government intervention. 

Microsoft used to be at almost 90% of the browser market they have 
dropped to about 77% because of the free choice of users not government 
intervention

http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=0

Perhaps the opera people should ask why Firefox has earned 16% of the 
market while they have 0.65%


Michael Horowitz
Your Computer Consultant
http://yourcomputerconsultant.com
561-394-9079



[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

I presume it is okay with you then if MS starts up their own PC Support
business? Sorry 'Computer Consultancy'?

Assuming it is, do you mind if they then advertise it heavily, force
users to sign up to it before they can use Windows, undercut other
operators, etc. etc.?

It is precisely because Gov. recognises that it should not regulate
every aspect of normal business operations that it only steps in when a
de-facto monopoly is seen to be abusing its position. Which MS has
already been convicted of, repeatedly.

Mike
 

  

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael Horowitz

Sent: Friday, December 14, 2007 2:46 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part




  
Does anyone really believe government officials have a better 
ability to run your business than you do?






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Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part

2007-12-14 Thread Matthew Cruickshank
Oh, in particular this quote from Brendan Eich,

the obvious conflict of interest between the standards-based web and
proprietary platforms advanced by Microsoft, and the rationales for
keeping the web's language small while the proprietary platforms
rapidly evolve support for large languages, does not help maintain the
fiction that only clashing high-level philosophies are involved here
 -- 
http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/roadmap/archives/2007/10/open_letter_to_chris_wilson.html


On Dec 14, 2007 9:01 PM, Matthew Cruickshank
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Dec 14, 2007 8:41 PM, Chris Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Why was Silverlight included?

[...]

-- 
.Matthew Cruickshank
http://holloway.co.nz/


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Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part

2007-12-14 Thread Jason Pruim


On Dec 14, 2007, at 12:09 PM, Genesis One And One wrote:



I want another OS that works like Windoze but is better than  
Windoze. I wish Mozilla would develop one. Their products are  
already consumer friendly etc. Imagine a FFOS. I would imagine M$  
poor customer support and glitchy software would warp forward. I'd  
imagine it would become superior. Because that's what a serious  
competitive market does to companies that want to compete and win.


Ummm... There already is... www.apple.com No virus's, no spyware, no  
adware, the stability of unix at the core, and the GUI of an easy to  
use interface. They also have great customer service both on the  
phone, and in person...  I've dealt with both.


As Confucius says... Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but  
in rising everytime we do. Which is what apple does :)


Just my 2¢ +/- for inflation :)

--

Jason Pruim
Raoset Inc.
Technology Manager
MQC Specialist
3251 132nd ave
Holland, MI, 49424
www.raoset.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]




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Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part

2007-12-14 Thread Robert O'Rourke

Jason Pruim wrote:


On Dec 14, 2007, at 12:09 PM, Genesis One And One wrote:



I want another OS that works like Windoze but is better than Windoze. 
I wish Mozilla would develop one. Their products are already consumer 
friendly etc. Imagine a FFOS. I would imagine M$ poor customer 
support and glitchy software would warp forward. I'd imagine it would 
become superior. Because that's what a serious competitive market 
does to companies that want to compete and win.


Ummm... There already is... www.apple.com No virus's


Not quite true but quickly fixed: 
http://www.symantec.com/enterprise/security_response/weblog/2006/07/macinenterprise_mac_os_x_virus.html



, no spyware, no adware, the stability of unix at the core


I've heard good and bad about the stability of macs, especially since 
the move to intel chipsets.


, and the GUI of an easy to use interface. They also have great 
customer service both on the phone, and in person...  I've dealt with 
both.




I think the reason OSX does well is because apple have complete control 
over the hardware, I can't remember who said it first but the fact is if 
microsoft built a microsoft computer specifically for running windows it 
would probably be at least as good as if not better than a mac. Macs 
aren't for people on a budget. A PC that is made up of components from 
umpteen different manufacturers can't really compete when it comes to 
the overal experience. Plus what's easier to support, a relatively small 
amount of Mac+OSX (which is a very well defined product) or the vast 
majority of PC users running Windows on god knows what?


Ubuntu is coming along nicely, good for all kinds of development at the 
very least. It also has the stability of unix.


-Rob


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Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part

2007-12-14 Thread liorean
On 14/12/2007, Al Sparber [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 No offense, but (imo) anyone who believes what you just wrote is extremely
 naive. While all web developers want standards conformance (whether they
 admit it or not), an industry with multiple browsers is not a healthy
 industry. No 2 browsers are alike. Every browser has quirks, anomalies, and
 bugs. What you (Opera) need to spend your idle time doing is coming up with
 a means for web developers to deploy fixes for your bugs. Something similar
 to Microsoft conditional comments.

Isn't that effort more well spent in actually fixing those bugs,
instead?  The goal should IMHO be all browsers supporting the same
HTML/XHTML/XML/XSLT/CSS/JS/DOM/SVG/PNG/whatever without having to
write something specifically to each browser. Reducing the disparities
is a better way to go.

Developers don't WANT to send separate style sheets or scripts for ie.
Developers want ie to get fixed so that it supports those original
style sheets and scripts that are already supported by everyone else.
Op is close enough to the standards and to the other browsers that
they won't break particularly much code out there by fixing those bugs
that are actually bugs. For ie, the situation is different since
fixing those bugs would actually break terribly large amounts of
present code. That's why ie needs conditional comments and compliance
mode switches when other browsers don't.

 Then spend time convincing your compadres
 at Mozilla and Apple to do the same thing. Once you admit that you produce
 bugs, you'll have done a good deed... a noble deed. Then you can go about
 suing and whining all you want. Or do you believe that your browser is
 perfect?

In which way is it better to let developers send code specifically for
fixing a bug, which creates a dependency of that code on the bug in
question, than fixing the bug? If such dependencies are created, they
make it harder to actually fix bugs.
-- 
David liorean Andersson


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Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part

2007-12-14 Thread Al Sparber

From: David Storey [EMAIL PROTECTED]

I just one to make one point about this case clear (although I'm not
involved in it in any way).  The complaint is manly about getting
Microsoft to follow accepted web standards more closely, and isn't
about money at all.  I believe we (Opera) have stated that we don't
want to earn any money as a result of this complaint.  Hopefully this
is not one of the cases where just lawyers win.
--

No offense, but (imo) anyone who believes what you just wrote is extremely 
naive. While all web developers want standards conformance (whether they 
admit it or not), an industry with multiple browsers is not a healthy 
industry. No 2 browsers are alike. Every browser has quirks, anomalies, and 
bugs. What you (Opera) need to spend your idle time doing is coming up with 
a means for web developers to deploy fixes for your bugs. Something similar 
to Microsoft conditional comments. Then spend time convincing your compadres 
at Mozilla and Apple to do the same thing. Once you admit that you produce 
bugs, you'll have done a good deed... a noble deed. Then you can go about 
suing and whining all you want. Or do you believe that your browser is 
perfect?


--
Al Sparber - PVII
http://www.projectseven.com
Extending Dreamweaver - Nav Systems | Galleries | Widgets
Authors: 42nd Street: Mastering the Art of CSS Design




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Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part

2007-12-14 Thread Al Sparber

From: liorean [EMAIL PROTECTED]


On 14/12/2007, Al Sparber [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
No offense, but (imo) anyone who believes what you just wrote is 
extremely

naive. While all web developers want standards conformance (whether they
admit it or not), an industry with multiple browsers is not a healthy
industry. No 2 browsers are alike. Every browser has quirks..


Isn't that effort more well spent in actually fixing those bugs,
instead?  The goal should IMHO be all browsers supporting the same
HTML/XHTML/XML/XSLT/CSS/JS/DOM/SVG/PNG/whatever without having to
write something specifically to each browser. Reducing the disparities
is a better way to go.


Yes, of course every effort needs to be made to fix and eliminate bugs... 
but you answered your question in the last sentence of your first paragraph. 
Reducing the disparities is not the same as eliminating disparities. It is 
human nature to make mistakes. It's often the best way to learn.




Developers don't WANT to send separate style sheets or scripts for ie.
Developers want ie to get fixed so that it supports those original
style sheets and scripts that are already supported by everyone else.
Op is close enough to the standards and to the other browsers that
they won't break particularly much code out there by fixing those bugs
that are actually bugs. For ie, the situation is different since
fixing those bugs would actually break terribly large amounts of
present code. That's why ie needs conditional comments and compliance
mode switches when other browsers don't.


One bug is all it takes to break a page. One bug is all it takes to make a 
client climb all over you. For hobby sites or sites targeted at web 
developers this is not a big problem. We understand. But when you develop a 
site for a commercial entity, the rules change. I must go under a couple of 
assumptions here:


1. All browsers will always have some bugs
2. Some users will always be browsers with an older version

It is for these reasons that all browser makers need to provide developers 
with a means of eploying targeted workarounds.



In which way is it better to let developers send code specifically for
fixing a bug, which creates a dependency of that code on the bug in
question, than fixing the bug? If such dependencies are created, they
make it harder to actually fix bugs.


That's a great philosophy for teachers and parents to have. It does not work 
so well, however, for businesses. The assumption, again, is that human 
nature is imperfect. Mistakes will always be made. So long as there are more 
than one browser, there will be unique bugs. It's useless to talk about MSIE 
having lots of bugs because it only takes one bug to keep a developer up at 
night. The reason I like conditional comments is that once I identify a fix 
for IE, I can fix it in a fully insulated way and for specific versions.


I recognize differences of opinion here and am so glad that this discussion 
remains civil. The object is always better standards support. I can't change 
Opera's mind and while I disagree with their premise, I can only hope that 
as this thing runs its course there will be benefits for us web developers 
and a better window into the web for all users.


--
Al Sparber - PVII
http://www.projectseven.com
Extending Dreamweaver - Nav Systems | Galleries | Widgets
Authors: 42nd Street: Mastering the Art of CSS Design




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[WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part

2007-12-13 Thread James Ellis
Hi

I read this on the Opera feed this morning, I'm not sure how it will proceed 
but it mentions:

The complaint describes how Microsoft is abusing its dominant position by 
tying its browser, Internet Explorer, to the Windows operating system and by 
hindering interoperability by not following accepted Web standards

http://www.opera.com/pressreleases/en/2007/12/13/

I wonder what the flow on effects of this would be internationally rather than 
just in the EU ? Of course there is the opinion that only lawyers win out of 
arguments like this but it would defnitely be a more interesting playground 
if IE wasn't bundled and supported accepted standards better.

Cheers
James


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Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part

2007-12-13 Thread John Faulds
First, it requests the Commission to obligate Microsoft to unbundle  
Internet Explorer from Windows and/or carry alternative browsers  
pre-installed on the desktop.


I can't see that flying. Is anyone going to ask Apple to stop shipping  
their OS with Safari?


On Fri, 14 Dec 2007 09:05:11 +1000, James Ellis [EMAIL PROTECTED]  
wrote:



Hi

I read this on the Opera feed this morning, I'm not sure how it will  
proceed

but it mentions:

The complaint describes how Microsoft is abusing its dominant position  
by
tying its browser, Internet Explorer, to the Windows operating system  
and by

hindering interoperability by not following accepted Web standards

http://www.opera.com/pressreleases/en/2007/12/13/

I wonder what the flow on effects of this would be internationally  
rather than
just in the EU ? Of course there is the opinion that only lawyers win  
out of
arguments like this but it would defnitely be a more interesting  
playground

if IE wasn't bundled and supported accepted standards better.

Cheers
James


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Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part

2007-12-13 Thread Gav...

quote who=John Faulds
 Delivering their OSes with half a dozen pre-installed standard-compliant
 alternatives to IE/win isn't a
 technical problem, so why not?

 I'm no lawyer and I'm also no MS fanboy, but I think 'why?' is as equally
 a valid question as 'why not?'.

 My latest computer with Vista came pre-intalled with Windows Mail, Windows
 Media Player, Microsoft Works and Roxio CD Creator (this one may be more
 of an HP choice than MS); should I also expect my system to be
 preinstalled with Eudora/Thunderbird/Lotus Note, RealPlayer/Quicktime,
 OpenOffice and Nero? Is it reasonable for any OS vendor to have to install
 any more than one type of any application? For the less savvy users,
 having more than one option may actually make things more difficult for
 them.

 Surely it's any manufacturer's right to choose what components they use in
 their own product (as long as there aren't health and safety concerns
 involved)?

+1, I just posted the same thing :)

Gav...


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Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part

2007-12-13 Thread John Faulds
Delivering their OSes with half a dozen pre-installed standard-compliant  
alternatives to IE/win isn't a

technical problem, so why not?


I'm no lawyer and I'm also no MS fanboy, but I think 'why?' is as equally  
a valid question as 'why not?'.


My latest computer with Vista came pre-intalled with Windows Mail, Windows  
Media Player, Microsoft Works and Roxio CD Creator (this one may be more  
of an HP choice than MS); should I also expect my system to be  
preinstalled with Eudora/Thunderbird/Lotus Note, RealPlayer/Quicktime,  
OpenOffice and Nero? Is it reasonable for any OS vendor to have to install  
any more than one type of any application? For the less savvy users,  
having more than one option may actually make things more difficult for  
them.


Surely it's any manufacturer's right to choose what components they use in  
their own product (as long as there aren't health and safety concerns  
involved)?


--
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www.tyssendesign.com.au
Ph: (07) 3300 3303
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Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part

2007-12-13 Thread Gav...
 
quote who=Gunlaug Sørtun
 John Faulds wrote:
 First, it requests the Commission to obligate Microsoft to unbundle
 Internet Explorer from Windows and/or carry alternative browsers
 pre-installed on the desktop.

 I can't see that flying. Is anyone going to ask Apple to stop
 shipping their OS with Safari?

 No, but Apple is hardly in a dominant position, and carrying
 pre-installed alternatives to Safari can't be much of a problem.

 Microsoft is in a slightly more dominant position, so a better control
 of its practices sure wouldn't hurt. Delivering their OSes with half a
 dozen pre-installed standard-compliant alternatives to IE/win isn't a
 technical problem, so why not?

Where would that end - Should they pre-install alternative mail clients,
firewalls, anti-virus programs, web servers too?

No, OS suppliers should have the option of providing whatever default
packages they want, and leave the options open for users to install their
own alternatives. Those that need a better, standards compliant web
browser will know they can get one.

Just my 0.02

Gav...


 regards
   Georg
 --
 http://www.gunlaug.no


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Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part

2007-12-13 Thread John Faulds
but their os should be able to run other optional packages that the  
customer chooses.


Out of all the applications Gav  I mentioned previously, all the  
alternatives are easily installed on Windows (including Vista), and that's  
certainly the case for other browsers, so I don't really see your point.



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Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part

2007-12-13 Thread dwain
i guess i stand corrected.
dwain

On 12/13/07, Adam Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 drivers are the responsibility of the vendors. As is the ability of
 running other software. Vista is essentially a framework for software
 developers - it is there responsibility to ensure it works - not Microsofts.

 On Dec 14, 2007 11:01 AM, dwain [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 
  On 12/13/07, Gav... [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
   No, OS suppliers should have the option of providing whatever default
   packages they want, and leave the options open for users to install
   their
   own alternatives. Those that need a better, standards compliant web
   browser will know they can get one.
  
  but their os should be able to run other optional packages that the
  customer chooses.
  vista has little to no support from other software vendors and drivers
  are another issue all together.
  cheers,
  dwain
 
  --
  dwain alford
  The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
  for his inner impulse must find suitable expression.  Kandinsky
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Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part

2007-12-13 Thread Adam Martin
drivers are the responsibility of the vendors. As is the ability of running
other software. Vista is essentially a framework for software developers -
it is there responsibility to ensure it works - not Microsofts.

On Dec 14, 2007 11:01 AM, dwain [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



 On 12/13/07, Gav... [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  No, OS suppliers should have the option of providing whatever default
  packages they want, and leave the options open for users to install
  their
  own alternatives. Those that need a better, standards compliant web
  browser will know they can get one.
 
 but their os should be able to run other optional packages that the
 customer chooses.
 vista has little to no support from other software vendors and drivers are
 another issue all together.
 cheers,
 dwain

 --
 dwain alford
 The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
 for his inner impulse must find suitable expression.  Kandinsky
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Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part

2007-12-13 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun

John Faulds wrote:
Delivering their OSes with half a dozen pre-installed 
standard-compliant alternatives to IE/win isn't a technical 
problem, so why not?


I'm no lawyer and I'm also no MS fanboy, but I think 'why?' is as 
equally a valid question as 'why not?'.


Indeed. Which would make any such case valid for testing.

[...] Is it reasonable for any OS vendor to have to install any more 
than one type of any application?


I think that would depend on the application in question. AFAIKS only
one application is mentioned in the article.

For the less savvy users, having more than one option may actually 
make things more difficult for them.


Sure, and the least savvy users may get lost with only one option -
especially if it's a weak one. Making choices for users rarely helps,
unless the aim is to keep them ignorant.

Surely it's any manufacturer's right to choose what components they 
use in their own product (as long as there aren't health and safety 
concerns involved)?


Don't know about the rest of the world, but in the EU there's also
something called ethics involved when products and sales methods are
evaluated.
Microsoft has been evaluated on ethics before - in the EU, and it didn't
pass the tests. The same has happened to other companies - big and
small, so it doesn't really matter what name it has and what its
products are.

regards
Georg
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Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part

2007-12-13 Thread Christian Montoya
On 12/13/07, dwain [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


 On 12/13/07, Gav... [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
  No, OS suppliers should have the option of providing whatever default
  packages they want, and leave the options open for users to install their
  own alternatives. Those that need a better, standards compliant web
  browser will know they can get one.
 
 but their os should be able to run other optional packages that the customer
 chooses.
 vista has little to no support from other software vendors and drivers are
 another issue all together.

We are on the verge of getting a worse peanut gallery than when we
were discussing the target lawsuit.

Windows is known for supporting many drivers and programs out-of-the-box.

-- 
--
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christianmontoya.net


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Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part

2007-12-13 Thread Christian Montoya
On 12/13/07, John Faulds [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 First, it requests the Commission to obligate Microsoft to unbundle
 Internet Explorer from Windows and/or carry alternative browsers
 pre-installed on the desktop.

 I can't see that flying. Is anyone going to ask Apple to stop shipping
 their OS with Safari?

Your question is perfectly valid, but where have you been? The EU
courts just slammed Microsoft with a huge penalty for their bundling
practice with Windows Media Player, which came after a complaint from
Real. I don't remember who it was specifically, but someone
representing the court said that they are very much against
Microsoft's market dominance and want to do more to prevent similar
practices from Microsoft.

So yes, I definitely see this flying.

My concern with the complaint is that it is clearly twofold; that
Microsoft is holding standards back, and that Microsoft is holding
competitors back. One is valid, the other is clearly business. I don't
like the fact that these two things go together. I want to see
Microsoft get serious about standards support, but I don't think it's
fair to apply a double standard when other companies use bundling
practices too.

Regardless, I think Opera struck when the iron was hot and I can see
this having a lot of traction.

-- 
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.net


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Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part

2007-12-13 Thread Christian Snodgrass
I think Opera considers this to be a slightly different case then that 
of email clients, cd burning software, etc. The key point in here I 
think is that Internet Explorer has low standards-compliance, which 
hinders the development of internet-based projects. I don't think it's 
so much they it only comes with Internet Explorer, as it is that it only 
comes with Internet Explorer -which isn't standards compliant-.


I think if IE was standards-compliant, we wouldn't be seeing this.

Just my 2 cents.

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Azure Ronin Web Design
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Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part

2007-12-13 Thread Al Sparber

From: Christian Montoya [EMAIL PROTECTED]


My concern with the complaint is that it is clearly twofold; that
Microsoft is holding standards back, and that Microsoft is holding
competitors back. One is valid, the other is clearly business.


Here's another way to look at it...

Microsoft is a software publisher. It develops an OS that contains a default 
browser: Internet Explorer. Microcenter makes PowerSpec brand computers. It 
made my computer. It installed Microsoft Windows on my computer in the 
flavor I specified. It installed a 1 year subscription NAS, which it does on 
all of its computers. It also installed Firefox. When I booted up the 
computer the first time, Windows asked me to set my default programs. One of 
the choices was for a browser. I could have chosen Firefox.


As my logic goes, Opera should be suing Microcenter -- as well as any other 
computer manufacturer that does not include Opera.


Further:

Apple is both a computer manufacturer and a software publisher. It develops 
an OS that contains a default browser: Safari. My iMac comes with neither 
Firefox nor Opera. Opera, using its logic, should sue Apple, the software 
publisher. Using my logic, they should sue Apple, the computer manufacturer.


If I were Opera, I'd take a long walk along the fjords and do some 
soul-searching about ethics, EU-style ethics notwithstanding.


--
Al Sparber - PVII
http://www.projectseven.com
Extending Dreamweaver - Nav Systems | Galleries | Widgets
Authors: 42nd Street: Mastering the Art of CSS Design




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Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part

2007-12-13 Thread Michael Horowitz
Personally I'm looking forward to buying computers with virtually 
nothing pre installed.  I always end up deleting most of it anyway.  
Alot of people start off by reinstalling the OS to get rid of all the 
junk the PC manufacturers put on. 


Michael Horowitz
Your Computer Consultant
http://yourcomputerconsultant.com
561-394-9079



Al Sparber wrote:

From: Christian Montoya [EMAIL PROTECTED]


My concern with the complaint is that it is clearly twofold; that
Microsoft is holding standards back, and that Microsoft is holding
competitors back. One is valid, the other is clearly business.


Here's another way to look at it...

Microsoft is a software publisher. It develops an OS that contains a 
default browser: Internet Explorer. Microcenter makes PowerSpec brand 
computers. It made my computer. It installed Microsoft Windows on my 
computer in the flavor I specified. It installed a 1 year subscription 
NAS, which it does on all of its computers. It also installed Firefox. 
When I booted up the computer the first time, Windows asked me to set 
my default programs. One of the choices was for a browser. I could 
have chosen Firefox.


As my logic goes, Opera should be suing Microcenter -- as well as any 
other computer manufacturer that does not include Opera.


Further:

Apple is both a computer manufacturer and a software publisher. It 
develops an OS that contains a default browser: Safari. My iMac comes 
with neither Firefox nor Opera. Opera, using its logic, should sue 
Apple, the software publisher. Using my logic, they should sue Apple, 
the computer manufacturer.


If I were Opera, I'd take a long walk along the fjords and do some 
soul-searching about ethics, EU-style ethics notwithstanding.





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Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part

2007-12-13 Thread Kenny Graham
How do you legally distinguish standards-compliant from
non-compliant anyway?  IE is clearly the worst of the bunch, but I'm
not aware of a browser that doesn't have any rendering bugs.  Would
the requirement be be at least as compliant as opera?  And if so,
how do you measure that?  Acid2?  Number of CSS selectors understood?
And which standard?  IE renders HTML 3.2 pretty well, if not
perfectly, 4.01 like crap, and XHTML (as xml) not at all.


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Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part

2007-12-13 Thread Felix Miata
On 2007/12/13 23:04 (GMT-0500) Christian Snodgrass apparently typed:

 I think if IE was standards-compliant, we wouldn't be seeing this.

Mostly I agree, but also I think another issue is that too many people think
IE *is* THE internet, and don't know better, or even any, other options exist
for finding www.isawitontv.com with their puter.
-- 
   Our Constitution was made only for a moral
and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to
the government of any other. John Adams

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

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Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part

2007-12-13 Thread Al Sparber

From: Michael Horowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Personally I'm looking forward to buying computers with virtually nothing 
pre installed.  I always end up deleting most of it anyway.  Alot of 
people start off by reinstalling the OS to get rid of all the junk the PC 
manufacturers put on.


Indeed. But to bring it on-topic, I doubt very highly that Opera's 
motivation is standards. If the unimaginable happened and MSIE8 were as 
standards-comformant as Opera, it would also be stronger in the marketplace. 
The best thing that could happen for standards-oriented web developers would 
be that all computers shipped with a single, extensible browser appliance 
with a standards-based module, managed and updated by an independent party, 
being the chief extension. It's better that the industry wake up now because 
eventually someone is going to figure out that a browser is an appliance and 
the only thing it should be doing is supporting standards and sitting 
unobtrusively in the background acting as a window to the web.


--
Al Sparber - PVII
http://www.projectseven.com
Extending Dreamweaver - Nav Systems | Galleries | Widgets
Authors: 42nd Street: Mastering the Art of CSS Design




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