Re: [WSG] Re: Alt text for purely aesthetic images

2007-10-27 Thread Ben Buchanan
 I have two questions regarding images added via CSS.
 1) I added an image for each bullet via CSS .box ul li. How do I specify alt
 text in this situation? Do I add alt text in the HTML...even though there
 would be no image if CSS was disabled?

Since it adds no meaning/information, it doesn't need alt text.

Think of it this way: what would there be to include as alt text? Each
list item has already been identified by the markup as being a list
item. The bullet image is just a prettier version of the default
bullet. Adding alt text would just be annoying to anyone who really
needs it.

 2) What is the implication (what do I need to do) for purely
 presenation/aesthetic images?

Either insert them via CSS or use alt=.

WCAG Samurai Errata for WCAG 1.0 cover this too -
http://wcagsamurai.org/errata/errata.html

Corrections to Guideline 1.1
You can leave a text equivalent blank (e.g., null alt text, alt=) if
immediately-
preceding or -following text has the same function as a text equivalent.
...
If images must be used for list bullets, do so only using CSS, as with
ul { list-style: url(arrow.gif) disc }

cheers,
Ben

-- 
--- http://weblog.200ok.com.au/
--- The future has arrived; it's just not
--- evenly distributed. - William Gibson


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Re: [WSG] Re: Alt text for purely aesthetic images

2007-10-27 Thread Melissa Forrest
There is really no hard and fast rule that states all presentational
images should be background images, there are plenty of situations
where is is not practical or inappropriate, as others have stated  if
an images is purely for presentation than an empty alt attribute
(alt=) is appropriate.

Not all content images require alt text in the alt attribute, if the
surrounding content provides the relevant alternative text than an
empty alt attribute is appropriate.

Here is a good article on the appropriate use of alt text.
http://www.webaim.org/techniques/alttext/

- Mel

On 10/26/07, John Faulds [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 If the images are in the CSS, then there's no need for alt attributes.
 Conversely, if you believe an image should have alt text, then it
 shouldn't be in the CSS as a bg-image.

 On Fri, 26 Oct 2007 20:20:23 +1000, Simon Cockayne
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  Hi again...
 
  Whoops...butterfingers I unwittingly hit send before completing my email.
 
  Anywise...here is what it should have said:
 
  Hi,
 
  WCAG 1.0 (http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10/) states:
 
  Guideline 1. Provide equivalent alternatives to auditory and visual
  content
  Provide content that, when presented to the user, conveys essentially the
  same function or purpose as auditory or visual content
 
  1.1 Provide a text equivalent for every non-text element (e.g., via
  alt,
  longdesc, or in element content). *This includes*: images, graphical
  representations of text (including symbols), image map regions,
  animations (
  e.g., animated GIFs), applets and programmatic objects, ascii art,
  frames,
  scripts, images used as list bullets, spacers, graphical buttons, sounds
  (played with or without user interaction), stand-alone audio files, audio
  tracks of video, and video. [Priority 1]
 
 
  I have two questions regarding images added via CSS.
 
  1) I added an image for each bullet via CSS .box ul li. How do I specify
  alt
  text in this situation? Do I add alt text in the HTML...even though there
  would be no image if CSS was disabled?
 
  2) What is the implication (what do I need to do) for purely
  presenation/aesthetic images?
 
  For example on my wife's microsite (that I built)
  http://phd.london.edu/ygrushkacockayne/ what do I need to do, if
  anything,
  for the gifs that form rounded corners on the boxes, via CCS on .box,
  box2
  et cetera?
 
 
  Cheers,
 
  Simon
 
 
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 www.tyssendesign.com.au
 Ph: (07) 3300 3303
 Mb: 0405 678 590



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Re: [WSG] Re: Alt text for purely aesthetic images

2007-10-26 Thread John Faulds
If the images are in the CSS, then there's no need for alt attributes.  
Conversely, if you believe an image should have alt text, then it  
shouldn't be in the CSS as a bg-image.


On Fri, 26 Oct 2007 20:20:23 +1000, Simon Cockayne  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



Hi again...

Whoops...butterfingers I unwittingly hit send before completing my email.

Anywise...here is what it should have said:

Hi,

WCAG 1.0 (http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10/) states:

Guideline 1. Provide equivalent alternatives to auditory and visual  
content

Provide content that, when presented to the user, conveys essentially the
same function or purpose as auditory or visual content

1.1 Provide a text equivalent for every non-text element (e.g., via  
alt,

longdesc, or in element content). *This includes*: images, graphical
representations of text (including symbols), image map regions,  
animations (
e.g., animated GIFs), applets and programmatic objects, ascii art,  
frames,

scripts, images used as list bullets, spacers, graphical buttons, sounds
(played with or without user interaction), stand-alone audio files, audio
tracks of video, and video. [Priority 1]


I have two questions regarding images added via CSS.

1) I added an image for each bullet via CSS .box ul li. How do I specify  
alt

text in this situation? Do I add alt text in the HTML...even though there
would be no image if CSS was disabled?

2) What is the implication (what do I need to do) for purely
presenation/aesthetic images?

For example on my wife's microsite (that I built)
http://phd.london.edu/ygrushkacockayne/ what do I need to do, if  
anything,
for the gifs that form rounded corners on the boxes, via CCS on .box,  
box2

et cetera?


Cheers,

Simon


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Tyssen Design
www.tyssendesign.com.au
Ph: (07) 3300 3303
Mb: 0405 678 590



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[WSG] Re: Alt text for purely aesthetic images

2007-10-26 Thread Simon Cockayne
Hi again...

Whoops...butterfingers I unwittingly hit send before completing my email.

Anywise...here is what it should have said:

Hi,

WCAG 1.0 (http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10/) states:

Guideline 1. Provide equivalent alternatives to auditory and visual content
Provide content that, when presented to the user, conveys essentially the
same function or purpose as auditory or visual content

1.1 Provide a text equivalent for every non-text element (e.g., via alt,
longdesc, or in element content). *This includes*: images, graphical
representations of text (including symbols), image map regions, animations (
e.g., animated GIFs), applets and programmatic objects, ascii art, frames,
scripts, images used as list bullets, spacers, graphical buttons, sounds
(played with or without user interaction), stand-alone audio files, audio
tracks of video, and video. [Priority 1]


I have two questions regarding images added via CSS.

1) I added an image for each bullet via CSS .box ul li. How do I specify alt
text in this situation? Do I add alt text in the HTML...even though there
would be no image if CSS was disabled?

2) What is the implication (what do I need to do) for purely
presenation/aesthetic images?

For example on my wife's microsite (that I built)
http://phd.london.edu/ygrushkacockayne/ what do I need to do, if anything,
for the gifs that form rounded corners on the boxes, via CCS on .box, box2
et cetera?


Cheers,

Simon


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Re: [WSG] Re: Alt text for purely aesthetic images

2007-10-26 Thread Dave Woods
As a general rule, any images that add to the content or are required
for navigation should be applied as a foreground image using the img
tag and an alt attribute should be applied.

If an image is purely for presentation then use CSS and apply it as a
background image.

Obviously there are exceptions to this where you may be using image
replacement and in this situation you should provide text within the
page that provides an alternative for the image.

Looking at the page you've provided, it looks perfectly fine in the
way you've applied the rounded corners although as a side issue I
would suggest running it through http://validator.w3.org as you've got
a few errors (you're using an XHTML doctype so don't forget to close
img tags as well as escaping ampersands). ;o)

Hope that helps.

Dave

http://www.dave-woods.co.uk

On 26/10/2007, Simon Cockayne [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Hi again...

 Whoops...butterfingers I unwittingly hit send before completing my email.

 Anywise...here is what it should have said:

 Hi,

 WCAG 1.0 ( http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10/) states:

 Guideline 1. Provide equivalent alternatives to auditory and visual content
  Provide content that, when presented to the user, conveys essentially the
 same function or purpose as auditory or visual content.
 ...

 1.1 Provide a text equivalent for every non-text element (e.g., via alt,
 longdesc, or in element content). This includes: images, graphical
 representations of text (including symbols), image map regions, animations
 (e.g., animated GIFs), applets and programmatic objects, ascii art, frames,
 scripts, images used as list bullets, spacers, graphical buttons, sounds
 (played with or without user interaction), stand-alone audio files, audio
 tracks of video, and video. [Priority 1]


 I have two questions regarding images added via CSS.

 1) I added an image for each bullet via CSS .box ul li. How do I specify alt
 text in this situation? Do I add alt text in the HTML...even though there
 would be no image if CSS was disabled?

 2) What is the implication (what do I need to do) for purely
 presenation/aesthetic images?

 For example on my wife's microsite (that I built)
 http://phd.london.edu/ygrushkacockayne/ what do I need to
 do, if anything, for the gifs that form rounded corners on the boxes, via
 CCS on .box, box2 et cetera?



 Cheers,

 Simon

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Re: [WSG] Re: Alt text for purely aesthetic images

2007-10-26 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com
 If an image is purely for presentation then use CSS
 and apply it as a background image.

I personally don't think of this as some hard-and-fast rule, or even a 
rule-of-thumb since it's often impractical. I will often apply a decorative 
or supporting image for visual purposes, but if I have to add classed 
mark-up (to style it) and a CSS entry for every decorative image on my sites 
it'd seriously get out-of-hand quicky.

I feel it is best to first assess the image which then tells me what to do 
with it. I did make a blog entry [1]  year about this assessment protocol, 
and I have addressed the topic more generally this year in another entry 
[2].

Not everyone will agree with these, but it's what I've managed to sort out 
for myself. To me it makes sense.

[1] The Alt and Accessibility
http://green-beast.com/blog/?p=81
[2] Adding Embedded Images to a Web Page
http://green-beast.com/blog/?p=203

Cheers.
Mike Cherim



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Re: [WSG] Re: Alt text for purely aesthetic images

2007-10-26 Thread James Jeffery
This is my view.

If an image is for aesthetic purposes, it should be in with the CSS.

If an image is to be used as part of the content, for example, the image
of your wife, then it should be within img tags.

I would say that is common sense to be honest. If you turn of the CSS
would you want your users to see images that make no sense in relation
to the content, because without the positioning of these images they will
displayed in normal flow and leave users scratching their heads.

Or lets say a blind person coming across empty alt attributes, or alt
attributes
that say alt=Rounded corner for the top left header.

The WAI have laid out these guidelines for good reason, follow them. Unless
there is damn good reason to go against them.

Ps. your wife is pretty, she looks like a high achiever

James

On 10/26/07, Mike at Green-Beast.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  If an image is purely for presentation then use CSS
  and apply it as a background image.

 I personally don't think of this as some hard-and-fast rule, or even a
 rule-of-thumb since it's often impractical. I will often apply a
 decorative
 or supporting image for visual purposes, but if I have to add classed
 mark-up (to style it) and a CSS entry for every decorative image on my
 sites
 it'd seriously get out-of-hand quicky.

 I feel it is best to first assess the image which then tells me what to do
 with it. I did make a blog entry [1]  year about this assessment protocol,
 and I have addressed the topic more generally this year in another entry
 [2].

 Not everyone will agree with these, but it's what I've managed to sort out
 for myself. To me it makes sense.

 [1] The Alt and Accessibility
 http://green-beast.com/blog/?p=81
 [2] Adding Embedded Images to a Web Page
 http://green-beast.com/blog/?p=203

 Cheers.
 Mike Cherim



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Re: [WSG] Re: Alt text for purely aesthetic images

2007-10-26 Thread Designer

James Jeffery wrote:

This is my view.

If an image is for aesthetic purposes, it should be in with the CSS.

If an image is to be used as part of the content, for example, the image
of your wife, then it should be within img tags.

I would say that is common sense to be honest. If you turn of the CSS
would you want your users to see images that make no sense in relation
to the content, because without the positioning of these images they will
displayed in normal flow and leave users scratching their heads.

Or lets say a blind person coming across empty alt attributes, or alt 
attributes

that say alt=Rounded corner for the top left header.

The WAI have laid out these guidelines for good reason, follow them. Unless
there is damn good reason to go against them.

Ps. your wife is pretty, she looks like a high achiever

James


Except, James, that folk who make elastic layouts very often want the 
aesthetics (graphics)  to expand along with the text etc. This is not a 
problem if you size the graphics in em units, but of course you can't do 
that with backgrounds.


??

Bob






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Re: [WSG] Re: Alt text for purely aesthetic images

2007-10-26 Thread JonMarc Wright

 Except, James, that folk who make elastic layouts very often want the
 aesthetics (graphics)  to expand along with the text etc. This is not a
 problem if you size the graphics in em units, but of course you can't do
 that with backgrounds.

 ??

 Bob



backgrounds can be positioned using relative units.  you can't set the size,
but you can set the size of whatever element in the html you attach them to.

what i think you're talking about i would handle by making a larger image,
then i would choose what part i want to show normally, what the focus would
be.  i would then set the height and/or width of the element i am attaching
the background image to using ems, and then specify the background position
using percentages.  that way, as the text is expanding, so is the canvas
that the image is on, so you see more image, but the focus of the image
remains at whatever i initially chose because i used the percentages to keep
it there despite resizing the box.

play around with it and see what you get.  i think it is discussed in a few
different books as well.

take care,

jm


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