RE: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what

2008-08-15 Thread Steve Green
 

Thanks Steve for the clarification.

OK, in the risk of showing more ignorant, I still have question. My
understanding on WCAG guidelines, are the fundamental principle of DDA,
Section 508 and similar law in other countries correct? When a website is to
be DDA or Section 508 compliant, for lack of better guideline (or none) from
the DDA law, we follow WCAG guidelines because there aren't anything else we
can base on. Is it not that UK websites are to to be WCAG AA compliant so
that it meets UK DDA compliant? 'Reasonable measures' takes into account
that is correct; personally I feel that making an accessible site for all
people regardless of disability take one's common sense, sensibility and
compassion towards  others who are at disadvantage doing certain things that
most people like us take it for granted, these are also reasonable measures
I think.

Since the DDA law has not drafted out a comprehensive guideline for website
maker/owner to follow but an unofficial WCAG we depend on, I think
'reasonable measures' can also be favored by defendant with his [EMAIL 
PROTECTED]
lawyer :-)

Under British law, can individual who brings a case under the DDA and the
lawyer seek monetary compensation?
Couple months  ago a handful of ADA lawsuits handled by a same lawyer.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2008/06/13/carollloyd.DTLh
w=disability+lawsuitsn=001sc=1000

I followed the story because one of my clients was affected, she closed her
business as a result. After reading some background stories, I am not
sympathize to the plaintiffs. If a lawyer filed over 1500 cases like this,
and fatten his wallet on every case, it's hard to convince that he was
fighting for a just and noble cause but a tumour for ADA/DDA.
If lawyer and plaintiff can seek monetary compensation, I honestly hope no
ADA/DDA law ever applies to website.

tee
  
--

The DDA is only relevant if both the user and the website owner are based in
the UK. In all other circumstances it can and should be ignored. And it has
absolutely nothing to do with the WCAG. The DDA does not require WCAG
compliance and does not even mention it. WCAG compliance could be used as
part of a defence that reasonable measures were taken, but it may not be
sufficient (the court may believe that the website owner had sufficient
resources to conduct user testing that would have revealed accessibility
issues that the WCAG testing missed).

Section 508 only applied in the US, and only to Federal or Federally-funded
websites.  In all other circumstances it can and should be ignored.

All of which leaves us with the WCAG, which are universally recognised.
Unless a country has its own set of guidelines, WCAG is all you need to be
concerned with.

An individual who brings a case under the DDA can seek monetary
compensation. However, the law is supposed to be a last resort, and users
are expected to give the website owner the opportunity to make the website
accessible before resorting to law. Failure to do so suggests that the
plaintiff is just looking for a payout and that they are not actually
interested in being able to use the website. The situation may be different
in the US but you're not going to get ambulance-chasing lawyers stirring up
trouble in the UK.

Steve



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RE: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what

2008-08-15 Thread michael.brockington
An individual who brings a case under the DDA can seek 
monetary compensation. However, the law is supposed to be a 
last resort, and users are expected to give the website owner 
the opportunity to make the website accessible before 
resorting to law. Failure to do so suggests that the plaintiff 
is just looking for a payout and that they are not actually 
interested in being able to use the website. The situation may 
be different in the US but you're not going to get 
ambulance-chasing lawyers stirring up trouble in the UK.



However, even in the UK, precious few lawyers, if any, ever lose money
on a case - one side or the other generally has to bear the costs of
both sets of lawyers, unless there is an out-of-court settlement.

Incidentally, the DDA does not specifically mention that it applies to
websites - in fact, the specific regulations that state that .gov.uk
websites MUST achieve WCAG AA could easily be taken as an indication
that the DDA poses a lesser burden. I am not a lawyer, and even if I
was, this has never been tested in court (to my knowledge) and therefore
there is no legal precedent.

In addition to what Steve said, it is my understanding that legal action
cannot be taken in the UK until after notification has been made of the
specific issue at hand. In other words, it is perfectly legal to create
a site that breaks every WCAG guideline. If someone points out that it
is inaccessible in a particular way, only then does it become necessary
to work out what changes can reasonably be made to accommodate the issue
- if it is unreasonably expensive then you don't have to change. If you
change that one thing, but someone then points out another issue, you
again get the chance to fix it before a lawsuit may be issued. None of
this has anything directly to do with WCAG - knowledge of the latter is
arguably as likely to get you into trouble as out of it, since you could
then be deemed to be deliberately ignoring something from the AAA
guidelines!
Like so much of the Law, it is all a big mess, which is why Lawyers make
big money, whether they win or lose.

Regards,
Mike


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Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what

2008-08-14 Thread Jason Grant
Hello everyone,

Will try to keep it simple.

I have much experience of working on various e-commerce systems and know the
following:

   1. Serious e-commerce systems are very complex (i.e. Magento)
   2. 90% of e-commerce systems are not accessible, let alone standards
   compliant
   3. Even templated UI solutions tend to require much work to 'clean up' -
   largely to do with complexity of the problem at hand
   4. It takes a long time to develop a fully-featured, standards compliant
   e-commerce solution (usability aside)

Magento is one of the best I have come by so far in terms of Open Source,
but it's not standards compliant. Quick example why: checkout does not work
with JS off and it uses in line JS to work. :-| Dirty, hacky and not
necessarily good enough for some clients, although most tend not to care as
long as it 'works'.

Still today I am searching for an Open Source solution (or a cheap-ish one)
that does the job nicely, but no luck so far after many hours invested into
finding one.

Standards wise the best one so far seems to be: http://www.tradingeye.com/ ,
but I haven't really thoroughly tried it yet.

Whoever quotes $500 for developing a shopping cart is either just selling
'ideas' or does not have a first clue about what an e-commerce system is.

Kindest regards,

Jason

PS: Oh yeah, how can I forget that automatically selling
digital/downloadable products through the solution is (in my opinion) a
must-have feature which Magento does not have and that functionality poses
various other standards-related implementational issues with it.

On Thu, Aug 14, 2008 at 3:12 AM, tee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


 On Aug 13, 2008, at 7:00 PM, tee wrote:


  I'd been learning Magento since beta 1, guess I will add my 2 cents.
 Magento is very impressive, and you can make your magento store as compliant
 as it can be with its very flexible, a-bit-daunting template system. But to
 say magento is standards compliant is totally off-key in my opinion. The
 first template they came out, was very impressive for an open source, now,
 with each releases, many files got updated and you see inline styles,
 excessive use of div classes. I don't think Varien continues promoting
 Magento as Standards Compliant anymore.


  Also, forgot to add, accessible wise, it think it gets a minus point.
 Turn the js off, many things are gone, so far the fatal accessible issue I
 see is the category nav. In my theme, I try doing  fly-out and I haven't
 been able to get the tabbing works in second level.

 tee





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Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what

2008-08-14 Thread Krystian - Sunlust
 Will try to keep it simple.

 I have much experience of working on various e-commerce systems and know the
 following:

 Serious e-commerce systems are very complex (i.e. Magento)
 90% of e-commerce systems are not accessible, let alone standards compliant
 Even templated UI solutions tend to require much work to 'clean up' -
 largely to do with complexity of the problem at hand
 It takes a long time to develop a fully-featured, standards compliant
 e-commerce solution (usability aside)


Agree to the above.

 Standards wise the best one so far seems to be: http://www.tradingeye.com/ ,
 but I haven't really thoroughly tried it yet.


It costs £300 man, I would prefer to get an open source solution,
community  paid support.

Regards,

-- 
Krystian - Sunlust - I-M-A:
Freelancer on the side: http://sunlust.net
Full time Website Designer: http://smesolutions.co.uk/


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Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what

2008-08-14 Thread tee


On Aug 14, 2008, at 3:09 AM, Krystian - Sunlust wrote:




It costs £300 man, I would prefer to get an open source solution,
community  paid support.


Try getting support from Magento,  likely £300 is comparably very  
inexpensive, considering that commercial software ought to give you  
support on every question you asked (if  not, you go spread the bad  
word) :-)


excerpt from tradingeye:
Accessibility
• WCAG AAA
• UK DDA aware
• Section 508 aware


Placing 'WCAG AAA', DDA, Section 508 aware, it makes think they don't  
really know what they are taking. If they have scored AAA (how many  
sites you built have achieved this ?), why add the other two?


tee

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RE: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what

2008-08-14 Thread Steve Green
 
On Aug 14, 2008, at 3:09 AM, Krystian - Sunlust wrote:


 It costs £300 man, I would prefer to get an open source solution, 
 community  paid support.

Try getting support from Magento,  likely £300 is comparably very
inexpensive, considering that commercial software ought to give you support
on every question you asked (if  not, you go spread the bad
word) :-)

excerpt from tradingeye:
Accessibility
• WCAG AAA
• UK DDA aware
• Section 508 aware


Placing 'WCAG AAA', DDA, Section 508 aware, it makes think they don't really
know what they are taking. If they have scored AAA (how many sites you built
have achieved this ?), why add the other two?

tee


I have no idea what they mean by UK DDA aware. DDA is not a technical
standard and has nothing to do with the WCAG. Compliance with WCAG (even
AAA) is no guarantee that a site meets the requirements of the DDA. The
latter is concerned with 'actual outcomes' i.e. can people with disabilities
access the site.

It is reasonable to include Section 508 because it is not a subset of WCAG
AAA. It is substantially based on WCAG but it has additional requirements.

Steve



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Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what

2008-08-14 Thread tee


On Aug 14, 2008, at 5:22 AM, Steve Green wrote:


I have no idea what they mean by UK DDA aware. DDA is not a  
technical
standard and has nothing to do with the WCAG. Compliance with WCAG  
(even
AAA) is no guarantee that a site meets the requirements of the DDA.  
The
latter is concerned with 'actual outcomes' i.e. can people with  
disabilities

access the site.





It is reasonable to include Section 508 because it is not a subset  
of WCAG
AAA. It is substantially based on WCAG but it has additional  
requirements.


Steve




I thought that UK DDA is based on the WCAG AA guideline no?  One  
time I did a template coding for a UK company, and was asked to follow  
WCAG AA guideline.


As for Section 508, my impression is that, despite the additional  
requirements, it doesn't even quite meet the WCAG A.


In the early years of my Standard Compliant pilgrim, I did a couple  
sites that were WCAG AAA compliant (if Bobby was right) so that I  
could get a field experience then reading the WCAG guidelines that I  
have had difficulty to comprehend. I agree that compliance with WCAG  
is of no guarantee that a site is fully accessibly, however, I do  
think that if a site scores WCAG AAA, it pretty much covers section  
508, and maybe UK DDA (I am not very famliar with this guideline).


tee


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RE: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what

2008-08-14 Thread Steve Green
I thought that UK DDA is based on the WCAG AA guideline no?  One time I
did a template coding for a UK company, and was asked to follow WCAG AA
guideline.

As for Section 508, my impression is that, despite the additional
requirements, it doesn't even quite meet the WCAG A.

In the early years of my Standard Compliant pilgrim, I did a couple sites
that were WCAG AAA compliant (if Bobby was right) so that I could get a
field experience then reading the WCAG guidelines that I have had difficulty
to comprehend. I agree that compliance with WCAG is of no guarantee that a
site is fully accessibly, however, I do think that if a site scores WCAG
AAA, it pretty much covers section 508, and maybe UK DDA (I am not very
famliar with this guideline).

tee



No, the DDA is not based on WCAG. The DDA is not a technical standard, it is
a UK law. If a website is not accessible to someone, they can (in theory)
bring a case against the website owner under the DDA regardless of whether
the website meets WCAG A, AA, AAA or any other technical standard. If the
court deem that the website owner did not take 'reasonable measures' to
ensure that the website is accessible, they will lose the case.

'Reasonable measures' takes into account all relevant factors including the
resources available. In the case of a small company with a website with
complex content such as a GIS (geographic information system) the court may
well deem that it would not be reasonable to expect the company to bear the
cost of making it accessible (to the particular person who brought the
case). The site would therefore be DDA compliant (for that person) despite
not even meeting WCAG A.

Note that only an individual can bring a case under the DDA because it is
necessary to show that they have suffered discrimination. It is not possible
to bring a class action, nor can a third party (such as a lobbying group)
bring an action although they may support an individual in bringing the
action. The findings of the court only apply to that individual so the
phrase 'DDA compliant' actually has no meaning except in its application to
a single person.

Steve



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Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what

2008-08-14 Thread tee


On Aug 14, 2008, at 12:44 PM, Steve Green wrote:


No, the DDA is not based on WCAG. The DDA is not a technical  
standard, it is
a UK law. If a website is not accessible to someone, they can (in  
theory)
bring a case against the website owner under the DDA regardless of  
whether
the website meets WCAG A, AA, AAA or any other technical standard.  
If the
court deem that the website owner did not take 'reasonable measures'  
to

ensure that the website is accessible, they will lose the case.

'Reasonable measures' takes into account all relevant factors  
including the
resources available. In the case of a small company with a website  
with
complex content such as a GIS (geographic information system) the  
court may
well deem that it would not be reasonable to expect the company to  
bear the

cost of making it accessible (to the particular person who brought the
case). The site would therefore be DDA compliant (for that person)  
despite

not even meeting WCAG A.

Note that only an individual can bring a case under the DDA because  
it is
necessary to show that they have suffered discrimination. It is not  
possible
to bring a class action, nor can a third party (such as a lobbying  
group)
bring an action although they may support an individual in bringing  
the

action. The findings of the court only apply to that individual so the
phrase 'DDA compliant' actually has no meaning except in its  
application to

a single person.




Thanks Steve for the clarification.

OK, in the risk of showing more ignorant, I still have question. My  
understanding on WCAG guidelines, are the fundamental principle of  
DDA, Section 508 and similar law in other countries correct? When a  
website is to be DDA or Section 508 compliant, for lack of better  
guideline (or none) from the DDA law, we follow WCAG guidelines  
because there aren't anything else we can base on. Is it not that UK  
websites are to to be WCAG AA compliant so that it meets UK DDA  
compliant? 'Reasonable measures' takes into account that is correct;  
personally I feel that making an accessible site for all people  
regardless of disability take one's common sense, sensibility and  
compassion towards  others who are at disadvantage doing certain  
things that most people like us take it for granted, these are also  
reasonable measures I think.


Since the DDA law has not drafted out a comprehensive guideline for  
website maker/owner to follow but an unofficial WCAG we depend on, I  
think 'reasonable measures' can also be favored by defendant with his  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] lawyer :-)


Under British law, can individual who brings a case under the DDA and  
the lawyer seek monetary compensation?

Couple months  ago a handful of ADA lawsuits handled by a same lawyer.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2008/06/13/carollloyd.DTLhw=disability+lawsuitsn=001sc=1000

I followed the story because one of my clients was affected, she  
closed her business as a result. After reading some background  
stories, I am not sympathize to the plaintiffs. If a lawyer filed over  
1500 cases like this, and fatten his wallet on every case, it's hard  
to convince that he was fighting for a just and noble cause but a  
tumour for ADA/DDA.
If lawyer and plaintiff can seek monetary compensation, I honestly  
hope no ADA/DDA law ever applies to website.


tee
 



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RE: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what

2008-08-13 Thread Jens-Uwe Korff
 Do the free [shopping carts] (such as ZenCart and OsCommerce) do an
adequate job  ?
 
I once did a ZenCart job for a friend and found it extremely confusing.
ZenCart has hundreds of options and if you're new to the software you
should prepare for a lot of searching on the net. That said there are
solutions for probably all of your problems and the community is
helpful.
 
ZenCart's template system is unusual as it requires you to create a
separate folder with your project's name for each template you want to
override -  a scattered approach which adds to the confusion. You need
to thoroughly document what you're doing or you will be searching again
if the client needs changes in a few months time.
 
I have spent many unpaid hours trying to figure out ZenCart. It's no
surprise that there's a busy market of experts (or wannabes) who offer
templates and solutions for you.
 
My friend populated the shop at the time because he was savvy with
Photoshop and could do all the image work himself. But you could as well
end up doing that too if your client hasn't that knowledge.
 
I think you should weigh your time vs. the fee your colleague charges.
You might want to learn ZenCart or another eCommerce solution so you can
do it in the future.
 
Cheers,
 
Jens 

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Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what

2008-08-13 Thread Lynette Smith


 Do the free [shopping carts] (such as ZenCart and OsCommerce) do an 
adequate job  ?
 
My friend populated the shop at the time because he was savvy with 
Photoshop and could do all the image work himself. But you could as 
well end up doing that too if your client hasn't that knowledge.

That's what I am afraid of.
 
I think you should weigh your time vs. the fee your colleague charges. 
You might want to learn ZenCart or another eCommerce solution so you 
can do it in the future.

Thanks, Jens - will re-think if a cart is really necessary.

Kind regards

Lyn



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Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what

2008-08-13 Thread 8bits Media

I think it would be worth your while to go and check out Magento - 
http://www.magentocommerce.com/

The makers of this product have done a great job of making it  
standards compliant, as well as very usable. We're in the process of  
integrating it into a new project.


Regards,

Nick
8bits Media

On 13 Aug 2008, at 16:39, Lynette Smith wrote:

 Do the free [shopping carts] (such as ZenCart and OsCommerce) do  
an adequate job  ?


My friend populated the shop at the time because he was savvy with  
Photoshop and could do all the image work himself. But you could as  
well end up doing that too if your client hasn't that knowledge.

That's what I am afraid of.


I think you should weigh your time vs. the fee your colleague  
charges. You might want to learn ZenCart or another eCommerce  
solution so you can do it in the future.

Thanks, Jens - will re-think if a cart is really necessary.

Kind regards

Lyn


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Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what

2008-08-13 Thread Lynette Smith

.
I think it would be worth your while to go and check out Magento 
- http://www.magentocommerce.com/


The makers of this product have done a great job of making it 
standards compliant, as well as very usable. We're in the process of 
integrating it into a new project.

OK - thanks- will do!

Kind regards

Lyn



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Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what

2008-08-13 Thread Krystian - Sunlust
I used osCommerce and Virtuemart with Joomla.
osCommerce is pretty straightforward, Virtuemart is a plugin/component
for Joomla CMS and I prefer it even thought it's not as good (it's
simpler tho).

You don't need any photoshop knowledge above resizing/cutting photos
and that's really basics.
Now about inputting products, I have made a shop for a friend who has
over 1000 products so obviously he and his team had to input all of
them (I've prepared and printed a tutorial for them with screenshots
of the back-end), but on few other projects when there were only 3-10
products I've done the job myself.

The real biggy when setting those shops is to test them thoroughly, in
every possible way before launching it live/starting proper
out-of-the-site SEO.

Then, in the end, tell your client that a shop itself won't make ANY
money if not SEO'd properly and advertised in a proper nieche
depending on your product/places you ship to, and get some extra $$$
for the job, depending on the competition.

Regards,

-- 
Krystian - Sunlust - I-M-A:
Freelancer on the side: http://sunlust.net
Full time Website Designer: http://smesolutions.co.uk/


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Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what

2008-08-13 Thread Lynette Smith

.Thanks  Krystian

You don't need any photoshop knowledge above resizing/cutting photos
and that's really basics.
Now about inputting products, I have made a shop for a friend who has
over 1000 products so obviously he and his team had to input all of
them (I've prepared and printed a tutorial for them with screenshots
of the back-end), but on few other projects when there were only 3-10
products I've done the job myself.
  

That's pretty much what I thought.

The real biggy when setting those shops is to test them thoroughly, in
every possible way before launching it live/starting proper
out-of-the-site SEO.

Then, in the end, tell your client that a shop itself won't make ANY
money if not SEO'd properly and advertised in a proper nieche
depending on your product/places you ship to, and get some extra $$$
for the job, depending on the competition.
  

Thanks!


Lyn



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Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what

2008-08-13 Thread Adam Martin
I am a pretty active magento developer and highly recommend it as well.. but it 
really only suits those clients whose whole site is an ecommerce solution. For 
example, take a look at a client of mine  - julesroc.com.au

I am working on a custom solution that allows ecommerce to be a part of a 
clients website. So the first question I would be asking is what are the needs 
of the client. A complete ecommerce solution or an ecommerce component within 
their site.

Cheers
Adam
magento user: tweakmag
  - Original Message - 
  From: 8bits Media 
  To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org 
  Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 5:00 PM
  Subject: Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what


  I think it would be worth your while to go and check out Magento - 
http://www.magentocommerce.com/


  The makers of this product have done a great job of making it standards 
compliant, as well as very usable. We're in the process of integrating it into 
a new project.


  Regards,


  Nick
  8bits Media


  On 13 Aug 2008, at 16:39, Lynette Smith wrote:


   Do the free [shopping carts] (such as ZenCart and OsCommerce) do an 
adequate job  ?

  My friend populated the shop at the time because he was savvy with 
Photoshop and could do all the image work himself. But you could as well end up 
doing that too if your client hasn't that knowledge.
That's what I am afraid of.


  I think you should weigh your time vs. the fee your colleague charges. 
You might want to learn ZenCart or another eCommerce solution so you can do it 
in the future.
Thanks, Jens - will re-think if a cart is really necessary.

Kind regards

Lyn



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Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what

2008-08-13 Thread Joseph Ortenzi
why would it not work as a directory under the main site tree, i.e.: www.domain.com.au/shop/ 
.


I think developers are keen on a lightweight, simple to use and deploy  
and template shopping cart system. ZenCart and osCommmerce are  
terrible to both set up and use, so lose-lose IMHO.


Surely a simple shopping cart that is relatively genertic isn't THAT  
complicated to do?


Joe


On Aug 13, 2008, at 10:34, Adam Martin wrote:

I am a pretty active magento developer and highly recommend it as  
well.. but it really only suits those clients whose whole site is an  
ecommerce solution. For example, take a look at a client of mine  -  
julesroc.com.au


I am working on a custom solution that allows ecommerce to be a part  
of a clients website. So the first question I would be asking is  
what are the needs of the client. A complete ecommerce solution or  
an ecommerce component within their site.


Cheers
Adam
magento user: tweakmag
- Original Message -
From: 8bits Media
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 5:00 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what

I think it would be worth your while to go and check out Magento - 
http://www.magentocommerce.com/

The makers of this product have done a great job of making it  
standards compliant, as well as very usable. We're in the process of  
integrating it into a new project.


Regards,

Nick
8bits Media

On 13 Aug 2008, at 16:39, Lynette Smith wrote:

 Do the free [shopping carts] (such as ZenCart and OsCommerce) do  
an adequate job  ?


My friend populated the shop at the time because he was savvy with  
Photoshop and could do all the image work himself. But you could  
as well end up doing that too if your client hasn't that knowledge.

That's what I am afraid of.


I think you should weigh your time vs. the fee your colleague  
charges. You might want to learn ZenCart or another eCommerce  
solution so you can do it in the future.

Thanks, Jens - will re-think if a cart is really necessary.

Kind regards

Lyn


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Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what

2008-08-13 Thread Jason Pruim


On Aug 13, 2008, at 1:34 AM, Lynette Smith wrote:

Have always avoided doing sites that needed a shopping cart but  a  
new client will need one.  I would appreciate some advice. Do the  
free ones (such as ZenCart and OsCommerce) do an adequate job  or  
would I be better off advising my client to go for a paid one.  I  
have a colleague who does custom-designed ones and I would be  
looking at about a minimum of  $500.


The second question is who does what?  Once I have the cart (either  
a downloaded free one or a custom one) and it is uploaded to the  
website,  who inputs the products etc? I imagine the client would  
need to be shown how to do this?  What is the usual procedure?


Thanks.


Hi Lyn,

Don't have much to offer, but just wanted to let you know I looked  
into a custom cart awhile back for a job that never went through, but  
the cart was going to cost around $500 by the time it was ready. So  
while it seems like alot of money, it's probably a decent deal.


Just my 2¢ :)


--

Jason Pruim
Raoset Inc.
Technology Manager
MQC Specialist
11287 James St
Holland, MI 49424
www.raoset.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]






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RE: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what

2008-08-13 Thread Paul Collins
Hi Joe,

Can you recommend a shopping cart system that is easy to set up and use, be it 
open source or not? Trying to make a decision myself at the moment and would be 
interested to hear your thoughts.

Cheers
Paul


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joseph Ortenzi
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 10:57 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what

why would it not work as a directory under the main site tree, i.e.: 
www.domain.com.au/shop/http://www.domain.com.au/shop/.

I think developers are keen on a lightweight, simple to use and deploy and 
template shopping cart system. ZenCart and osCommmerce are terrible to both set 
up and use, so lose-lose IMHO.

Surely a simple shopping cart that is relatively genertic isn't THAT 
complicated to do?

Joe


On Aug 13, 2008, at 10:34, Adam Martin wrote:

I am a pretty active magento developer and highly recommend it as well.. but it 
really only suits those clients whose whole site is an ecommerce solution. For 
example, take a look at a client of mine  - julesroc.com.au

I am working on a custom solution that allows ecommerce to be a part of a 
clients website. So the first question I would be asking is what are the needs 
of the client. A complete ecommerce solution or an ecommerce component within 
their site.

Cheers
Adam
magento user: tweakmag
- Original Message -
From: 8bits Mediamailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgmailto:wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 5:00 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what

I think it would be worth your while to go and check out Magento - 
http://www.magentocommerce.com/

The makers of this product have done a great job of making it standards 
compliant, as well as very usable. We're in the process of integrating it into 
a new project.

Regards,

Nick
8bits Media

On 13 Aug 2008, at 16:39, Lynette Smith wrote:

 Do the free [shopping carts] (such as ZenCart and OsCommerce) do an adequate 
 job  ?

My friend populated the shop at the time because he was savvy with Photoshop 
and could do all the image work himself. But you could as well end up doing 
that too if your client hasn't that knowledge.
That's what I am afraid of.

I think you should weigh your time vs. the fee your colleague charges. You 
might want to learn ZenCart or another eCommerce solution so you can do it in 
the future.
Thanks, Jens - will re-think if a cart is really necessary.

Kind regards

Lyn


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Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what

2008-08-13 Thread Joseph Ortenzi
$500 for a custom job that, done properly, would be a couple of days  
work at least for an experienced developer sounds pretty cheap to me...


That's half my day rate

Joe


On Aug 13, 2008, at 11:15, Jason Pruim wrote:


On Aug 13, 2008, at 1:34 AM, Lynette Smith wrote:

Have always avoided doing sites that needed a shopping cart but  a  
new client will need one.  I would appreciate some advice. Do the  
free ones (such as ZenCart and OsCommerce) do an adequate job  or  
would I be better off advising my client to go for a paid one.  I  
have a colleague who does custom-designed ones and I would be  
looking at about a minimum of  $500.


The second question is who does what?  Once I have the cart (either  
a downloaded free one or a custom one) and it is uploaded to the  
website,  who inputs the products etc? I imagine the client would  
need to be shown how to do this?  What is the usual procedure?


Thanks.


Hi Lyn,

Don't have much to offer, but just wanted to let you know I looked  
into a custom cart awhile back for a job that never went through,  
but the cart was going to cost around $500 by the time it was ready.  
So while it seems like alot of money, it's probably a decent deal.


Just my 2¢ :)


--

Jason Pruim
Raoset Inc.
Technology Manager
MQC Specialist
11287 James St
Holland, MI 49424
www.raoset.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]






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[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.typingthevoid.com
http://twitter.com/wheelyweb



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RE: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what

2008-08-13 Thread info
I've recently started to use drupal with the ubercart module. It's  
really easy to set up and it's pretty easy to theme too.


drupal on its own is a great cms. Download the whole package from  
ubercart though http://www.ubercart.org/downloads The deluxe package  
includes drupal and some extra modules.


I would steer clear of zencart - not keen on that software at all. Not  
very easy to customise.


Darren Lovelock
Munkyonline.co.uk

Quoting Paul Collins [EMAIL PROTECTED]:


Hi Joe,

Can you recommend a shopping cart system that is easy to set up and   
use, be it open source or not? Trying to make a decision myself at   
the moment and would be interested to hear your thoughts.


Cheers
Paul


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]   
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joseph Ortenzi

Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 10:57 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what

why would it not work as a directory under the main site tree, i.e.:  
 www.domain.com.au/shop/http://www.domain.com.au/shop/.


I think developers are keen on a lightweight, simple to use and   
deploy and template shopping cart system. ZenCart and osCommmerce   
are terrible to both set up and use, so lose-lose IMHO.


Surely a simple shopping cart that is relatively genertic isn't THAT  
 complicated to do?


Joe


On Aug 13, 2008, at 10:34, Adam Martin wrote:

I am a pretty active magento developer and highly recommend it as   
well.. but it really only suits those clients whose whole site is an  
 ecommerce solution. For example, take a look at a client of mine  -  
 julesroc.com.au


I am working on a custom solution that allows ecommerce to be a part  
 of a clients website. So the first question I would be asking is   
what are the needs of the client. A complete ecommerce solution or   
an ecommerce component within their site.


Cheers
Adam
magento user: tweakmag
- Original Message -
From: 8bits Mediamailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgmailto:wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 5:00 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what

I think it would be worth your while to go and check out Magento -   
http://www.magentocommerce.com/


The makers of this product have done a great job of making it   
standards compliant, as well as very usable. We're in the process of  
 integrating it into a new project.


Regards,

Nick
8bits Media

On 13 Aug 2008, at 16:39, Lynette Smith wrote:

Do the free [shopping carts] (such as ZenCart and OsCommerce) do an  
 adequate job  ?


My friend populated the shop at the time because he was savvy with   
Photoshop and could do all the image work himself. But you could as   
well end up doing that too if your client hasn't that knowledge.

That's what I am afraid of.

I think you should weigh your time vs. the fee your colleague   
charges. You might want to learn ZenCart or another eCommerce   
solution so you can do it in the future.

Thanks, Jens - will re-think if a cart is really necessary.

Kind regards

Lyn


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http://twitter.com/wheelyweb


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Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what

2008-08-13 Thread Lynette Smith

Hi Jason

Don't have much to offer, but just wanted to let you know I looked 
into a custom cart awhile back for a job that never went through, but 
the cart was going to cost around $500 by the time it was ready. So 
while it seems like alot of money, it's probably a decent deal.
Well, if anything went wrong I would be able to get it sorted quicker 
via a colleague than from an open source download, is what I am 
thinking. Thanks, Jason.






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Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what

2008-08-13 Thread Adam Martin
I agree... you get what you pay for. $500 is nothing. I know that I have 
spent about 500hrs in building my integrated ecomerce solution - but it has 
been well thought out - it is stds compliant etc etc. I would suggest having 
a look at shopify if you want a cheap basic but good ecommerce solution



- Original Message - 
From: Joseph Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 8:38 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what


$500 for a custom job that, done properly, would be a couple of days
work at least for an experienced developer sounds pretty cheap to me...

That's half my day rate

Joe


On Aug 13, 2008, at 11:15, Jason Pruim wrote:


On Aug 13, 2008, at 1:34 AM, Lynette Smith wrote:

Have always avoided doing sites that needed a shopping cart but  a  new 
client will need one.  I would appreciate some advice. Do the  free ones 
(such as ZenCart and OsCommerce) do an adequate job  or  would I be 
better off advising my client to go for a paid one.  I  have a colleague 
who does custom-designed ones and I would be  looking at about a minimum 
of  $500.


The second question is who does what?  Once I have the cart (either  a 
downloaded free one or a custom one) and it is uploaded to the  website, 
who inputs the products etc? I imagine the client would  need to be shown 
how to do this?  What is the usual procedure?


Thanks.


Hi Lyn,

Don't have much to offer, but just wanted to let you know I looked  into a 
custom cart awhile back for a job that never went through,  but the cart 
was going to cost around $500 by the time it was ready.  So while it seems 
like alot of money, it's probably a decent deal.


Just my 2¢ :)


--

Jason Pruim
Raoset Inc.
Technology Manager
MQC Specialist
11287 James St
Holland, MI 49424
www.raoset.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]






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[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.typingthevoid.com
http://twitter.com/wheelyweb



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RE: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what

2008-08-13 Thread Paul Collins
Anyone tried these? Someone just recommended them here:

http://www.shopify.com/
http://www.freecsscart.com/
http://www.tradingeye.com/department/products/

Cheers



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 11:51 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what

I've recently started to use drupal with the ubercart module. It's really easy 
to set up and it's pretty easy to theme too.

drupal on its own is a great cms. Download the whole package from ubercart 
though http://www.ubercart.org/downloads The deluxe package includes drupal and 
some extra modules.

I would steer clear of zencart - not keen on that software at all. Not very 
easy to customise.

Darren Lovelock
Munkyonline.co.uk

Quoting Paul Collins [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

 Hi Joe,

 Can you recommend a shopping cart system that is easy to set up and
 use, be it open source or not? Trying to make a decision myself at the
 moment and would be interested to hear your thoughts.

 Cheers
 Paul

 
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joseph Ortenzi
 Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 10:57 AM
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Subject: Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what

 why would it not work as a directory under the main site tree, i.e.:
  www.domain.com.au/shop/http://www.domain.com.au/shop/.

 I think developers are keen on a lightweight, simple to use and deploy
 and template shopping cart system. ZenCart and osCommmerce are
 terrible to both set up and use, so lose-lose IMHO.

 Surely a simple shopping cart that is relatively genertic isn't THAT
 complicated to do?

 Joe


 On Aug 13, 2008, at 10:34, Adam Martin wrote:

 I am a pretty active magento developer and highly recommend it as
 well.. but it really only suits those clients whose whole site is an
 ecommerce solution. For example, take a look at a client of mine  -
 julesroc.com.au

 I am working on a custom solution that allows ecommerce to be a part
 of a clients website. So the first question I would be asking is what
 are the needs of the client. A complete ecommerce solution or an
 ecommerce component within their site.

 Cheers
 Adam
 magento user: tweakmag
 - Original Message -
 From: 8bits Mediamailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgmailto:wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 5:00 PM
 Subject: Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what

 I think it would be worth your while to go and check out Magento -
 http://www.magentocommerce.com/

 The makers of this product have done a great job of making it
 standards compliant, as well as very usable. We're in the process of
 integrating it into a new project.

 Regards,

 Nick
 8bits Media

 On 13 Aug 2008, at 16:39, Lynette Smith wrote:

 Do the free [shopping carts] (such as ZenCart and OsCommerce) do an
 adequate job  ?

 My friend populated the shop at the time because he was savvy with
 Photoshop and could do all the image work himself. But you could as
 well end up doing that too if your client hasn't that knowledge.
 That's what I am afraid of.

 I think you should weigh your time vs. the fee your colleague charges.
 You might want to learn ZenCart or another eCommerce solution so you
 can do it in the future.
 Thanks, Jens - will re-think if a cart is really necessary.

 Kind regards

 Lyn


 ***
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 http://twitter.com/wheelyweb


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Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what

2008-08-13 Thread Joseph Ortenzi
which one is yours Martin? can I see an example? I have a client  
looking for one right now... might custom build bits, might not

Joe

On Aug 13, 2008, at 12:05, Adam Martin wrote:

I agree... you get what you pay for. $500 is nothing. I know that I  
have spent about 500hrs in building my integrated ecomerce solution  
- but it has been well thought out - it is stds compliant etc etc. I  
would suggest having a look at shopify if you want a cheap basic but  
good ecommerce solution



- Original Message - From: Joseph Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 8:38 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what


$500 for a custom job that, done properly, would be a couple of days
work at least for an experienced developer sounds pretty cheap to  
me...


That's half my day rate

Joe


On Aug 13, 2008, at 11:15, Jason Pruim wrote:


On Aug 13, 2008, at 1:34 AM, Lynette Smith wrote:

Have always avoided doing sites that needed a shopping cart but   
a  new client will need one.  I would appreciate some advice. Do  
the  free ones (such as ZenCart and OsCommerce) do an adequate  
job  or  would I be better off advising my client to go for a paid  
one.  I  have a colleague who does custom-designed ones and I  
would be  looking at about a minimum of  $500.


The second question is who does what?  Once I have the cart  
(either  a downloaded free one or a custom one) and it is uploaded  
to the  website, who inputs the products etc? I imagine the client  
would  need to be shown how to do this?  What is the usual  
procedure?


Thanks.


Hi Lyn,

Don't have much to offer, but just wanted to let you know I looked   
into a custom cart awhile back for a job that never went through,   
but the cart was going to cost around $500 by the time it was  
ready.  So while it seems like alot of money, it's probably a  
decent deal.


Just my 2¢ :)


--

Jason Pruim
Raoset Inc.
Technology Manager
MQC Specialist
11287 James St
Holland, MI 49424
www.raoset.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]






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[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.typingthevoid.com
http://twitter.com/wheelyweb



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Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what

2008-08-13 Thread Krystian - Sunlust
Could some of you guys trim the messages?
It's really hard to read when you top post above useless tones of wording.

Regards,

-- 
Krystian - Sunlust - I-M-A:
Freelancer on the side: http://sunlust.net
Full time Website Designer: http://smesolutions.co.uk/


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Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what

2008-08-13 Thread Adam Martin

Hi Joe,
I will be putting it out into the wild in a few weeks - just putting the 
final touches on it now.

Cheers
Adam
- Original Message - 
From: Joseph Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 9:19 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what


which one is yours Martin? can I see an example? I have a client
looking for one right now... might custom build bits, might not
Joe

On Aug 13, 2008, at 12:05, Adam Martin wrote:

I agree... you get what you pay for. $500 is nothing. I know that I  have 
spent about 500hrs in building my integrated ecomerce solution  - but it 
has been well thought out - it is stds compliant etc etc. I  would suggest 
having a look at shopify if you want a cheap basic but  good ecommerce 
solution



- Original Message - From: Joseph Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 8:38 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what


$500 for a custom job that, done properly, would be a couple of days
work at least for an experienced developer sounds pretty cheap to  me...

That's half my day rate

Joe


On Aug 13, 2008, at 11:15, Jason Pruim wrote:


On Aug 13, 2008, at 1:34 AM, Lynette Smith wrote:

Have always avoided doing sites that needed a shopping cart but   a  new 
client will need one.  I would appreciate some advice. Do  the  free 
ones (such as ZenCart and OsCommerce) do an adequate  job  or  would I 
be better off advising my client to go for a paid  one.  I  have a 
colleague who does custom-designed ones and I  would be  looking at 
about a minimum of  $500.


The second question is who does what?  Once I have the cart  (either  a 
downloaded free one or a custom one) and it is uploaded  to the 
website, who inputs the products etc? I imagine the client  would  need 
to be shown how to do this?  What is the usual  procedure?


Thanks.


Hi Lyn,

Don't have much to offer, but just wanted to let you know I looked   into 
a custom cart awhile back for a job that never went through,   but the 
cart was going to cost around $500 by the time it was  ready.  So while 
it seems like alot of money, it's probably a  decent deal.


Just my 2¢ :)


--

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Raoset Inc.
Technology Manager
MQC Specialist
11287 James St
Holland, MI 49424
www.raoset.com
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Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what

2008-08-13 Thread James Ellis
On Wednesday 13 August 2008 21:23:23 Krystian - Sunlust wrote:
 Could some of you guys trim the messages?
 It's really hard to read when you top post above useless tones of wording.

 Regards,

Hi all

This thread has gone off topic for the list, if you want to continue to 
discuss it, please do so off list or maybe take it up on a generic forum, like 
Sitepoint or similar.

Of course, if you want to discuss ecomm apps in a web standards context 
(compliance, best practice, vendor support, extending etc) then please go 
ahead but discussing development rates, installation and problems with various 
software is off-topic.

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Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what

2008-08-13 Thread Krystian - Sunlust
Okay, I'll try to bring it back OnTopic.

Which of shopping cards actually uses css based templates without
tones of tables? And if noone will mind, which CMS does so?
I mean,I'm using Joomla and everyone says that the templates are
standard compliant etc, but when I see the bloody header named
contentheader instead of h2 it really pisses me off - not semantic
and not SEO friendly.

What's your best practice for Shopping Carts templates/systems, would
you rather restyle a template to make it more standard compliant or
start from a scratch, and same with coding, do you sometimes try to
fix shopping cart software to customize it or do you not as it makes
it hard to update later on?

Regards,

-- 
Krystian - Sunlust - I-M-A:
Freelancer on the side: http://sunlust.net
Full time Website Designer: http://smesolutions.co.uk/


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Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what

2008-08-13 Thread Joseph Ortenzi

Good points Krystian

I've make standards compliant templates in ZenCart but it was a very  
hard slog and involved minimising a lot of the functions and layout  
options, not ideal. Also, you rightly address semantic mark-up as  
vital which few cart options get right. If I'm in the dvd section, the  
h1 should reflect that as different than when I am looking at Shop   
DVDs  Star Wars, where Star wars should be the h1.


I find most generic shopping carts are good for selling books and dvds  
but very difficult for the client to understand when they have less  
than simple products. ZenCart for example does not let you easily  
stock control t-shirts across different size/colour/variations easily.


So the gauntlet has been thrown. A simple, customisable shopping cart,  
that is at least _somewhat_ standards compliant, uses CSS (with tables  
only for tabular data, not layout) and allows one or more template  
with a usable template engine (allowing the developer to force  
standards compliance by generating their own templates.)


Anyone?
Joe

On Aug 13, 2008, at 14:00, Krystian - Sunlust wrote:


Okay, I'll try to bring it back OnTopic.

Which of shopping cards actually uses css based templates without
tones of tables? And if noone will mind, which CMS does so?
I mean,I'm using Joomla and everyone says that the templates are
standard compliant etc, but when I see the bloody header named
contentheader instead of h2 it really pisses me off - not semantic
and not SEO friendly.

What's your best practice for Shopping Carts templates/systems, would
you rather restyle a template to make it more standard compliant or
start from a scratch, and same with coding, do you sometimes try to
fix shopping cart software to customize it or do you not as it makes
it hard to update later on?

Regards,

--
Krystian - Sunlust - I-M-A:
Freelancer on the side: http://sunlust.net
Full time Website Designer: http://smesolutions.co.uk/


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Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what

2008-08-13 Thread info

Hi Krystian,

Again i would recommend drupal for cms - standards compliant  SEO  
friendly as standard.
And then the ubercart ecommerce module for drupal - standards  
compliant as standard too :)


Thats exactly the reason why we have started to use it. Would have  
used cubecart as v4 is tableless but I think you have to pay for it  
now. Drupal is free and there are loads of templates available for it  
already.


It uses multiple templating engines and is very well documented on  
their website (unlike other similar systems). You can over-ride  
anything on there through the template system which may require a bit  
of php knowledge. But if you want to keep it simple then you can just  
modify the CSS and still create a pretty unique looking site.


You create a theme folder and then assign it through the admin panel.  
All the core files are seperate so updating will not overwrite your  
customisations.


Check it out here - www.drupal.org

Darren Lovelock
Munky Online
http://www.munkyonline.co.uk

Quoting Krystian - Sunlust [EMAIL PROTECTED]:


Okay, I'll try to bring it back OnTopic.

Which of shopping cards actually uses css based templates without
tones of tables? And if noone will mind, which CMS does so?
I mean,I'm using Joomla and everyone says that the templates are
standard compliant etc, but when I see the bloody header named
contentheader instead of h2 it really pisses me off - not semantic
and not SEO friendly.

What's your best practice for Shopping Carts templates/systems, would
you rather restyle a template to make it more standard compliant or
start from a scratch, and same with coding, do you sometimes try to
fix shopping cart software to customize it or do you not as it makes
it hard to update later on?

Regards,

--
Krystian - Sunlust - I-M-A:
Freelancer on the side: http://sunlust.net
Full time Website Designer: http://smesolutions.co.uk/


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Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what

2008-08-13 Thread Robert DC. Reyes, MCP
I use and teach PlainCart for our Electronic Commerce subjects. Visit
http://www.plaincart.info for details.


brgds,
Bob Reyes
http://bobreyes.com

On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 1:34 PM, Lynette Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote:

  Have always avoided doing sites that needed a shopping cart but  a new
 client will need one.  I would appreciate some advice. Do the free ones
 (such as ZenCart and OsCommerce) do an adequate job  or would I be better
 off advising my client to go for a paid one.  I have a colleague who does
 custom-designed ones and I would be looking at about a minimum of  $500.

 The second question is who does what?  Once I have the cart (either a
 downloaded free one or a custom one) and it is uploaded to the website,  who
 inputs the products etc? I imagine the client would need to be shown how to
 do this?  What is the usual procedure?

 Thanks.

 Lyn Smith
 www.westernwebdesign.com.au
 Affordable web design - Perth, Western Australia

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Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what

2008-08-13 Thread Krystian - Sunlust
If anyone was bored, it would be cool to post a shopping cart name and
then a link to an example shop actually made by someone from this
group/a friend, so that we know that real people make those shops (not
huge companies with big $$$).

I'll post my shop made in Joomla 1.5 with Virtuemart (I'm still quite
a newbie so don't be harsh)
http://www.audiotrak.co.uk



-- 
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Freelancer on the side: http://sunlust.net
Full time Website Designer: http://smesolutions.co.uk/


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Re: Can I widen the question? Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what

2008-08-13 Thread chris . block
I second this wholeheartedly. It would be great use the collective 
knowledge of this group to build a list of 3rd party software vendors for 
common solutions (e-commerce, CMS, forums, search, etc.) that are written 
using, or designed to easily support, web standards. I would look to such 
a list as a first option when looking for off-the-shelf solutions. Maybe 
such a list already exists - does anyone know?

Thanks!
 Chris Block




Ian Chamberlain [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
08/13/2008 10:28 AM
Please respond to
wsg@webstandardsgroup.org


To
wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
cc

Subject
Can I widen the question?  Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what






Talking about this or that shopping cart may be a long way off topic for 
this place; but the underlying question is so similar to one a raised a 
few 
weeks ago (re PHP libraries) I will step in again.

Our focus here should be web standards; the problem is that sometimes the 
tools or systems we use may make it difficult to live the dream and all 
too 
often spacer gifs, font tags and layout tables leap in to view because of 
this or that poor template which allows such nastiness to clutter our 
clean 
pages.

The purist in me tends to avoid such tools and software; but the 
pragmatist; 
you know, the one who has to earn a living sometimes needs to learn who to 

make these tools to the web standards thing.

It would be really nice it such software came with a sticker, either;

[1]Not standards based, loves tables too much - Avoid

[2]Can be standards based but needs work - May be painful

[3]Creates standard code out of the box. - Rare and hard to find.

If anybody is likely to collect a list of tools and software that can 
(or 
can be made to) deliver standards based content, it should be us; any idea 

how we could list and share?

just a thought

Ian




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RE: Can I widen the question? Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what

2008-08-13 Thread Kepler Gelotte
 If anybody is likely to collect a list of tools and software that can 
 (or can be made to) deliver standards based content, it should be us; any 
 idea how we could list and share?

I would suggest using the forum. Someone created a thread there about this
topic already:
 
http://forum.webstandardsgroup.org/discussion/25/standardsaccessibilty-frien
dly-shopping-cart-/



Best regards,

Kepler Gelotte
Neighbor Webmaster, Inc.
156 Normandy Dr., Piscataway, NJ 08854
www.neighborwebmaster.com
phone/fax: (732) 302-0904




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ORG:Neighbor Webmaster
TITLE:Web Designer
TEL;WORK;VOICE:(732) 302-0904
TEL;WORK;FAX:(732) 302-0904
ADR;WORK:;;156 Normandy Dr;Piscataway;NJ;08854;United States of America
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Re: Can I widen the question? Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what

2008-08-13 Thread Joseph Ortenzi

I shortened the URL for you.

That discussion was 2006 so I hope there are more on offer now as  
opposed to then...


http://is.gd/1q4a

Joe

On Aug 13, 2008, at 17:07, Kepler Gelotte wrote:

If anybody is likely to collect a list of tools and software that  
can
(or can be made to) deliver standards based content, it should be  
us; any

idea how we could list and share?


I would suggest using the forum. Someone created a thread there  
about this

topic already:

http://forum.webstandardsgroup.org/discussion/25/standardsaccessibilty-frien
dly-shopping-cart-/



Best regards,

Kepler Gelotte
Neighbor Webmaster, Inc.
156 Normandy Dr., Piscataway, NJ 08854
www.neighborwebmaster.com
phone/fax: (732) 302-0904




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Re: Can I widen the question? Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what

2008-08-13 Thread Bruce


From: Joseph Ortenzi wrote:

I shortened the URL for you.
That discussion was 2006 so I hope there are more on offer now as  opposed 
to then...

http://is.gd/1q4a
Joe


I would suggest using the forum. Someone created a thread there  about 
this

topic already:
http://forum.webstandardsgroup.org/discussion/25/standardsaccessibilty-frien
dly-shopping-cart-/


How does the url go from one domain to another?
http://forum.webstandardsgroup.org/discussion/25/standardsaccessibilty-friendly-shopping-cart-/

Much less being unreadable as to content

bruce
bkdesign solutions 





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Re: Can I widen the question? Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what

2008-08-13 Thread Bruce

Looks like the forums require a separate application to use?

Bruce
bkdesign

- Original Message - 
From: Joseph Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 12:31 PM
Subject: Re: Can I widen the question? Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does 
what




I shortened the URL for you.

That discussion was 2006 so I hope there are more on offer now as  opposed 
to then...


http://is.gd/1q4a

Joe

On Aug 13, 2008, at 17:07, Kepler Gelotte wrote:


If anybody is likely to collect a list of tools and software that  can
(or can be made to) deliver standards based content, it should be  us; 
any

idea how we could list and share?


I would suggest using the forum. Someone created a thread there  about 
this

topic already:

http://forum.webstandardsgroup.org/discussion/25/standardsaccessibilty-frien
dly-shopping-cart-/



Best regards,

Kepler Gelotte
Neighbor Webmaster, Inc.
156 Normandy Dr., Piscataway, NJ 08854
www.neighborwebmaster.com
phone/fax: (732) 302-0904




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Re: Can I widen the question? Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what

2008-08-13 Thread Joseph Ortenzi

surely you've heard of tinyURL?


On Aug 13, 2008, at 17:51, Bruce wrote:



From: Joseph Ortenzi wrote:

I shortened the URL for you.
That discussion was 2006 so I hope there are more on offer now as   
opposed to then...

http://is.gd/1q4a
Joe


I would suggest using the forum. Someone created a thread there   
about this

topic already:
http://forum.webstandardsgroup.org/discussion/25/standardsaccessibilty-frien
dly-shopping-cart-/


How does the url go from one domain to another?
http://forum.webstandardsgroup.org/discussion/25/standardsaccessibilty-friendly-shopping-cart-/

Much less being unreadable as to content

bruce
bkdesign solutions



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Re: Can I widen the question? Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what

2008-08-13 Thread Adam Martin
I will be looking for web standard group members to try my cms / ecommerce 
custom solution. Please email me off the list ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) if you 
are interested. If you could also tell me your background in regards to 
developing / designing web apps.


Cheers.
Adam

P.S mine is one of those rare out-of-the-box standards system.

- Original Message - 
From: Ian Chamberlain [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2008 1:28 AM
Subject: Can I widen the question? Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what



Talking about this or that shopping cart may be a long way off topic for
this place; but the underlying question is so similar to one a raised a 
few

weeks ago (re PHP libraries) I will step in again.

Our focus here should be web standards; the problem is that sometimes the
tools or systems we use may make it difficult to live the dream and all 
too

often spacer gifs, font tags and layout tables leap in to view because of
this or that poor template which allows such nastiness to clutter our 
clean

pages.

The purist in me tends to avoid such tools and software; but the 
pragmatist;

you know, the one who has to earn a living sometimes needs to learn who to
make these tools to the web standards thing.

It would be really nice it such software came with a sticker, either;

[1]Not standards based, loves tables too much - Avoid

[2]Can be standards based but needs work - May be painful

[3]Creates standard code out of the box. - Rare and hard to find.

If anybody is likely to collect a list of tools and software that can 
(or

can be made to) deliver standards based content, it should be us; any idea
how we could list and share?

just a thought

Ian




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Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what

2008-08-13 Thread tee


On Aug 13, 2008, at 12:00 AM, 8bits Media wrote:


I think it would be worth your while to go and check out Magento - 
http://www.magentocommerce.com/

The makers of this product have done a great job of making it  
standards compliant, as well as very usable. We're in the process of  
integrating it into a new project.





I'd been learning Magento since beta 1, guess I will add my 2 cents.  
Magento is very impressive, and you can make your magento store as  
compliant as it can be with its very flexible, a-bit-daunting template  
system. But to say magento is standards compliant is totally off-key  
in my opinion. The first template they came out, was very impressive  
for an open source, now, with each releases, many files got updated  
and you see inline styles, excessive use of div classes. I don't think  
Varien continues promoting Magento as Standards Compliant anymore.


Still, I applause the work. With the browsers' short-comings, and the  
fact that we still have to support IE6, I think it's not easy to make  
a semantically sound and structurally clean template that is used by  
many store owners who have no knowledge of CSS and HTML (clearly this  
wasn't the intention from the developer). Taking this into  
consideration, I think perhaps the excessive use of div classes is the  
way to go to support majority of users. Alas!


Example of its template

div class=category
div class=head
h2heading 2/h2
/div

div class=pager
div class=toolbar
ul
lilist/li
/ul
/div

div class=listing
table/table
/div
/div


When you look at its iestyle.css, very clean, not many hacking for  
ie6. I think the use of wrapping each block in a div set helps a lot.


A theme I was working: http://tinyurl.com/6xdecp

tee




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Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what

2008-08-13 Thread tee


On Aug 13, 2008, at 7:00 PM, tee wrote:


I'd been learning Magento since beta 1, guess I will add my 2 cents.  
Magento is very impressive, and you can make your magento store as  
compliant as it can be with its very flexible, a-bit-daunting  
template system. But to say magento is standards compliant is  
totally off-key in my opinion. The first template they came out, was  
very impressive for an open source, now, with each releases, many  
files got updated and you see inline styles, excessive use of div  
classes. I don't think Varien continues promoting Magento as  
Standards Compliant anymore.



Also, forgot to add, accessible wise, it think it gets a minus point.  
Turn the js off, many things are gone, so far the fatal accessible  
issue I see is the category nav. In my theme, I try doing  fly-out and  
I haven't been able to get the tabbing works in second level.


tee




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[WSG] Shopping cart - who does what

2008-08-12 Thread Lynette Smith
Have always avoided doing sites that needed a shopping cart but  a new 
client will need one.  I would appreciate some advice. Do the free ones 
(such as ZenCart and OsCommerce) do an adequate job  or would I be 
better off advising my client to go for a paid one.  I have a colleague 
who does custom-designed ones and I would be looking at about a minimum 
of  $500.


The second question is who does what?  Once I have the cart (either a 
downloaded free one or a custom one) and it is uploaded to the website,  
who inputs the products etc? I imagine the client would need to be shown 
how to do this?  What is the usual procedure?


Thanks.

Lyn Smith
www.westernwebdesign.com.au
Affordable web design - Perth, Western Australia


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