RE: [WSG] Should logo not link to the homepage?

[Patrick Lauke]

> Ian Anderson

> Great minds and all that? If you reread the previous bit of my post 
> you'll see:
> 
> 'So, the logo should say something like "MSNBC home page"'

Yes, but you seemed to suggest having that as the ALT, whereas I'd say
it's more appropriate to just have "MSNBC" as the ALT and have the
"MSNBC home page" as the TITLE on the link. But yeh, in principle we're
on the same tracks :)

P

Patrick H. Lauke
Web Editor / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk

Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/

**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] Should logo not link to the homepage?

[Darren West]

It definatly should, relax and think of home ;-)

On 23/02/06, John S. Britsios <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Dear co-members,
>
> I would like to ask your opinion here, if a web site logo should or not
> link to the homepage.
> By the way, see for example what Jesper Tverskov wrote about this:
> http://www.smackthemouse.com/20040719
>
> Thanks in advance for your kind responces.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> John S. Britsios
> http://www.webnauts.net
>
> ---
> Redesign in process: http://www.webnauts.net/redesign/
>
>
>
> ---
> avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.
> Virus Database (VPS): 0608-0, 20.02.2006
> Tested on: 23.02.2006 09:32:33
> avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2006 ALWIL Software.
> http://www.avast.com
>
>
>
> **
> The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
>
>  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>  for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> **
>
>
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] Should logo not link to the homepage?

[Ian Anderson]

Patrick Lauke wrote:


How about a dual approach of using ALT that describes the image (MSNBC)
and a title on the link to provide additional advisory information of
where the link is going to ('MSNBC home page'), i.e.


Great minds and all that? If you reread the previous bit of my post 
you'll see:


'So, the logo should say something like "MSNBC home page"'

We seem to be in agreement :)

Sorry my post was a bit disordered


--
_
zStudio - Web development and accessibility
http://zStudio.co.uk

Snippetz.net - Online code library
File, manage and re-use your code snippets & links
http://snippetz.net

**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

RE: [WSG] Should logo not link to the homepage?

[Patrick Lauke]

> Ian Anderson

> To consider two extreme examples if the MSNBC logo was linked to the 
> home page, alt text of "MSNBC" would be the least helpful,

although that is the exact equivalent of what happens visually for
sighted users, and they then use their acquired knowledge to understand
that it links back to the homepage of the site.

> and alt text 
> of "Home" would be the most correct.

but then you've removed the branding/identification from the page.

How about a dual approach of using ALT that describes the image (MSNBC)
and a title on the link to provide additional advisory information of
where the link is going to ('MSNBC home page'), i.e.



P

Patrick H. Lauke
Web Editor / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk

Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/

**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] Should logo not link to the homepage?

[Ian Anderson]

Justin Owens wrote:

* the img alt text read 'logo' but the link went to home

Your alt attribute should be modified to correctly represent the
actual image. IMHO, 'logo' is not descriptive enough to be used as
alternative text for a linked image. 


In my opinion, it is important for linked images to have alt text that 
explains the function of the link - the alt text should be more or less 
the same as the link text ought to be if the link was on text instead of 
an image. The alt should not be a literal description of the image in 
this case.


So, the logo should say something like "MSNBC home page" so that it 
includes functional branding but clearly conveys the destination of the 
link.


To consider two extreme examples if the MSNBC logo was linked to the 
home page, alt text of "MSNBC" would be the least helpful, and alt text 
of "Home" would be the most correct.


I think the best course of action is a compromise incorporating both 
ideas like that above.



--
_
zStudio - Web development and accessibility
http://zStudio.co.uk

Snippetz.net - Online code library
File, manage and re-use your code snippets & links
http://snippetz.net

**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] Should logo not link to the homepage?

[heretic]

> I would like to ask your opinion here, if a web site logo should or not
> link to the homepage.

Anecdotally, I've seen a lot of users who do click the logo -
especially if it's placed at the top left of the page. It's not a
standard, but it's a common design element which many users pick up
very quickly when they start using the net. I've actually seen some
users get angry when the logo *wasn't* a link.

I don't think it should be the only way to get back to the homepage
though, it's still good to include a visible "home" as part of
existing navigation (not added to the logo graphic).

I don't really see a better link target for a logo, either. A
company's logo is an icon of its identity, a corporate avatar so to
speak. The logical thing for a logo to link to is that company's
primary web presence - the homepage.

I think I'm more bothered by the tyranny of "logo at top left" ;) Not
that I'm that bothered by that either.

h

--
--- 
--- The future has arrived; it's just not
--- evenly distributed. - William Gibson
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] Should logo not link to the homepage?

[Sandra Vassallo]

Hi Mark, I agree accessibility and usability go hand in hand.  However, 
changing the alt text (it was actually descriptive on the test site) 
still means the link descriptions are different.


I simply mentioned it as an example of a situation where the linked 
image wasn't working well from a usability or an accessibility 
perspective for one person.  Has anyone else had this sort of feedback?


Cheers,
Sandra.



Mark Harris wrote:
> What makes sense is to *change* the image alt text - not remove the
> link. Accessibility does not trump usability, and you might find other
> screen reader users who hold different opinions.
>
> Regards
>
> Mark



Sandra Vassallo wrote:

Hi, interestingly, one of my testers who uses a screen reader recently 
suggested taking the link off the logo in the head mast and the 
reasons made sense


* the img alt text read 'logo' but the link went to home
* there was already a clear text link to home on the site, so this 
meant a second link to the same destination but called something 
different


Cheers,
Sandra.







**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] Should logo not link to the homepage?

[Sandra Vassallo]

Actually the alt text was descriptive on the test site, I just used 
'logo' for the example.  However, the description had the same problems 
I mentioned.  The link also added to the verbosity when read aloud by JAWS.



Justin Owens wrote:

* the img alt text read 'logo' but the link went to home



Your alt attribute should be modified to correctly represent the
actual image. IMHO, 'logo' is not descriptive enough to be used as
alternative text for a linked image. I view it much the same as using
'picture' on a photo. You are not conveying additional useful
information.



**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] Should logo not link to the homepage?

[Justin Owens]

> * the img alt text read 'logo' but the link went to home

Your alt attribute should be modified to correctly represent the
actual image. IMHO, 'logo' is not descriptive enough to be used as
alternative text for a linked image. I view it much the same as using
'picture' on a photo. You are not conveying additional useful
information.

> * there was already a clear text link to home on the site, so this meant
> a second link to the same destination but called something different

It is true that it would be redundant in some sense, but removing it
also removes an expected feature on the page. If you visit the most
popular sites on the net, this is one commonality they all use.

Cheers,

Justin
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] Should logo not link to the homepage?

[Mark Harris]

Sandra Vassallo wrote:
Hi, interestingly, one of my testers who uses a screen reader recently 
suggested taking the link off the logo in the head mast and the reasons 
made sense


* the img alt text read 'logo' but the link went to home
* there was already a clear text link to home on the site, so this meant 
a second link to the same destination but called something different


Cheers,
Sandra.




What makes sense is to *change* the image alt text - not remove the 
link. Accessibility does not trump usability, and you might find other 
screen reader users who hold different opinions.


Regards

Mark
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] Should logo not link to the homepage?

[Sandra Vassallo]

Hi, interestingly, one of my testers who uses a screen reader recently 
suggested taking the link off the logo in the head mast and the reasons 
made sense


* the img alt text read 'logo' but the link went to home
* there was already a clear text link to home on the site, so this meant 
a second link to the same destination but called something different


Cheers,
Sandra.



Herrod, Lisa wrote:

It's one of those design conventions that doesn't impact on the visual
design of a page at all, but definitely does effect the user experience. I
do think users are 'learning' to expect this type of functionality and I
can't think of a reason why you wouldn't implement it.

lisa



-Original Message-
From: Justin Owens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, 24 February 2006 9:59 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Should logo not link to the homepage?


John:

We have had a few small projects where we did not link back to home
via the logo. In each of the usability tests, the users overwhelmingly
tried clicking on the logo to return home and were very frustrated
when the could not click.

So, based from practical usability experience, I am going to have to
say the logo should be linked.

Cheers,

Justin


**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

RE: [WSG] Should logo not link to the homepage?

[Herrod, Lisa]

It's one of those design conventions that doesn't impact on the visual
design of a page at all, but definitely does effect the user experience. I
do think users are 'learning' to expect this type of functionality and I
can't think of a reason why you wouldn't implement it.

lisa

> -Original Message-
> From: Justin Owens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Friday, 24 February 2006 9:59 AM
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: Re: [WSG] Should logo not link to the homepage?
> 
> 
> John:
> 
> We have had a few small projects where we did not link back to home
> via the logo. In each of the usability tests, the users overwhelmingly
> tried clicking on the logo to return home and were very frustrated
> when the could not click.
> 
> So, based from practical usability experience, I am going to have to
> say the logo should be linked.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Justin
> **
> The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> 
>  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>  for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> **
> 
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] Should logo not link to the homepage?

[Justin Owens]

John:

We have had a few small projects where we did not link back to home
via the logo. In each of the usability tests, the users overwhelmingly
tried clicking on the logo to return home and were very frustrated
when the could not click.

So, based from practical usability experience, I am going to have to
say the logo should be linked.

Cheers,

Justin
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] Should logo not link to the homepage?

[Jay Gilmore]

Herrod, Lisa wrote:



Christian, can you point us to an example where home text has been added to
the logo on site sub-pages? I'm really interested to see the type of sites
that are implementing this.


Lisa,

This idea appears on page 63 and then discussed on page 67 of Steve 
Krug's, "Don't Make Me Think". The sample site he shows in the image is 
of MSNBC.com's.


In the example it shows that the top level MSNBC logo with no "home" on 
it and all subsections with the "home". They have changed their site 
(http://www.msnbc.com ) since the book came out, the "home" is no longer 
on the logo and they are using a top level breadcrumb trail to get you 
there as well as a clickable logo.


I would argue that their current use of the bc-trail actually makes it 
harder to figure out how to get back home. Ah well -- designers.


All the best,
Jay

--
Jay Gilmore
Developer / Consultant
SmashingRed Web & Marketing
P] 902.529.0651
E] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
U] http://www.smashingred.com
B] http://www.smashingred.com/blog
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] Should logo not link to the homepage?

[Serdar Kılıç]

For me it seems very natural to have it link back to home, but I would
also like to see an explicit link in the navigation to take me home as
well.

On 23/02/06, John S. Britsios <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Dear co-members,
>
> I would like to ask your opinion here, if a web site logo should or not
> link to the homepage.
> By the way, see for example what Jesper Tverskov wrote about this:
> http://www.smackthemouse.com/20040719
>
> Thanks in advance for your kind responces.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> John S. Britsios
> http://www.webnauts.net
>


--
Cheers,
Serdar Kilic
http://weblog.kilic.net/
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] Should logo not link to the homepage?

[Christian Montoya]

On 2/23/06, Herrod, Lisa <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Christian, can you point us to an example where home text has been added to
> the logo on site sub-pages? I'm really interested to see the type of sites
> that are implementing this.

Actually, it was just an idea. I haven't seen it in practice, and I
doubt any client would agree to it. I was thinking more along the
lines of web applications (where there is no client) as the place to
use this technique, but it hasn't been tried.

--
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

RE: [WSG] Should logo not link to the homepage?

[Herrod, Lisa]

Linking back to the Home page via a logo placed top-left is one of those
design conventions/patterns that users of various experience appear to be
learning. I haven't seen novice users navigating this way, but certainly
users with moderate computer/internet literacy are.

However, I don't agree that the logo should have text in it (or added to it)
that says 'home'. Users seem to be far more aware of standard header
sections that include links such as home, about, contact, and the search
field (usually top right). I think it's more consistent to leave the text
link for 'Home' there. Aside from anything else, if 'Home' is added to the
logo, it may interfere with branding, which is important to most clients.

Christian, can you point us to an example where home text has been added to
the logo on site sub-pages? I'm really interested to see the type of sites
that are implementing this.

Thanks and all the best,

Lisa

> -Original Message-
> From: Christian Montoya [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On 2/23/06, Caleb Evans <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I think it should.  I think people are used to clicking on a logo to
> > return to the home page and if you are going to make the 
> logo a link -
> > the "standard" location for it is home.
> 
> I think we can make this a design pattern. One thing that helps is for
> the logo to have a bit of text like "home" in it on subpages of the
> site.
> 

**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] Should logo not link to the homepage?

[Christian Montoya]

On 2/23/06, Caleb Evans <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I think it should.  I think people are used to clicking on a logo to
> return to the home page and if you are going to make the logo a link -
> the "standard" location for it is home.

I think we can make this a design pattern. One thing that helps is for
the logo to have a bit of text like "home" in it on subpages of the
site.

--
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

RE: [WSG] Should logo not link to the homepage?

[Caleb Evans]

I think it should.  I think people are used to clicking on a logo to
return to the home page and if you are going to make the logo a link -
the "standard" location for it is home.

I guess it could link through to Information about the Company or
individual but I don't think this is the norm.

I certainly don't thin it should be compulsory as far as standards are
concerned.

Caleb Evans

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John S. Britsios
Sent: 23 February 2006 08:45
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Should logo not link to the homepage?

Dear co-members,

I would like to ask your opinion here, if a web site logo should or not 
link to the homepage.
By the way, see for example what Jesper Tverskov wrote about this:  
http://www.smackthemouse.com/20040719

Thanks in advance for your kind responces.

Kind regards,

John S. Britsios
http://www.webnauts.net

---
Redesign in process: http://www.webnauts.net/redesign/

**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

[WSG] Should logo not link to the homepage?

[John S. Britsios]

Dear co-members,

I would like to ask your opinion here, if a web site logo should or not 
link to the homepage.
By the way, see for example what Jesper Tverskov wrote about this:  
http://www.smackthemouse.com/20040719


Thanks in advance for your kind responces.

Kind regards,

John S. Britsios
http://www.webnauts.net

---
Redesign in process: http://www.webnauts.net/redesign/



---
avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.
Virus Database (VPS): 0608-0, 20.02.2006
Tested on: 23.02.2006 09:32:33
avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2006 ALWIL Software.
http://www.avast.com



**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**