RE: [WSG] Spacing Issue
Jeff D. Reid wrote: I joined this list well over two years ago. I have designed sites on my own utilizing tips and suggestions I have gathered from most people on the list and other lists. This is the FIRST time I have had my hands tied as to follow a Graphic Designer/Marketing expert who has new visions for OLP Guitars, which is owned by HHI, for whom I work in the capacity of Webmaster. Which means now you must pick your battles. Been there, done that grin. Welcome to the club. I have attended college and have received a degree in Web Site Design and Management. I have worked for various companies in both full-time and freelance capacities and never in my short 8 year career in web design have I ever had my knowledge or lack of knowledge questioned and thus insulted as you have managed to do in this statement to me: I won't go into all the remaining issues - you're probably aware of them anyway and have done the best you can with what you know. As for the text on the left. I am working within a pre-determined sized slice of the graphic designer's design. I have changed font faces, styles and sizes 100 times. Instead of chastising me (for doing something you have no idea of how I ended up concluding to) how about doing what this list is meant to do...HELP, ASSIST, POINT ME IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION! But the answer is very simple. The design must work with the browsers, not against. The designer must understand that they too need to have some give and take. If this has happened, we aren't aware of it. Lets start with Standards then: font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, Sans Serif; font-size: 9px; Item one: fixed font size - ya, ya, ya not as big an issue now as it used to be, but still considered a no-no. Perhaps try creating you own style sheets rather than allowing Mr. www.csscreator.com crank out this stuff. Are you aware of Nick Bradbury's excellent Top Style and Top Style Lite (http://www.bradsoft.com/topstyle/tslite/fullver.asp). Why PX? Item two: Verdana? I'm far from a typography expert, but I do know that Verdana has a completely different metric than most of the other sans-serif fonts out there. It's larger, wider, and spaced differently. This may be one of your problems. Yes I hate Arial too (I often use Tahoma), but the number of sans-serif fonts available to you is very limited. But I would strongly avoid Verdana... If you have an idea of how to make the font size larger as to be readable yet not break the table, please then by all means tell me. If it is to get rid of the table, then that is NOT a viable answer or solution for now, but in time that will come. Using your current design technique, you can't. You need to walk away from the table layout - it's that simple. It may not be the answer you seek, but it *is* the answer. I work for a company which up until 3 years ago, could have cared less about a web presence. I am basically in a weird position as the company's divisions start to grow and add on additional employees (design and marketing). Yes, I am in control of the sites that appear on our web servers. But yes, I am also needing to follow closely the assets that are provided to me regarding the building of the divisions web site as well. I have written a Web Standards paper which will be presented to each Division Manager at the next Managers Meeting. If you would like a copy of it so you can really determine my level of knowledge or understanding of standards and accessibility issues, I will send you one. Well Jeff, that's might kind. But my grandmother used to say that the proof was in the pudding. Perhaps you might start by educating your designer about the current trends in web development. Make him/her understand that the web is not a print medium, that you can do some really cool stuff on the web that you can't in print, and vice-versa. Perhaps spend some time together looking at sites like CSS Zen Garden for inspiration; proving that standards based flexible web sites need not be boring or ugly. But to show up with a site that would be better off as a PDF isn't going to win over any fans or strong support, at least probably not here... Oh well..end of rant. I will go back to lurk status and will learn the old fashioned way...trial and error until I can begin thinking of myself as some form of an elitist as well.. It may seem elitist to you, but look at it from a different perspective... You come to a list of experts who have been pushing, pleading, educating, scolding, extolling the virtues of table-less layouts, and wining about the evils of old-school multi-nested table layouts for about 3 years+ now, and you offer what? A table based design with fixed fonts: TR TDIMG SRC=images/space.gif WIDTH=19 BORDER=0 HEIGHT=1 ALT=spacer/TD TDIMG SRC=images/space.gif WIDTH=108 BORDER=0 HEIGHT=1 ALT=spacer/TD TDIMG SRC=images/space.gif WIDTH=83
Re: [WSG] Spacing Issue
John Thank you for your reply. This is exactly the type answer I was expecting from the members of this list. It was hard enough to have to ask for assistance knowing full well that I stood the chance of being cremated here. Problem with the OLP Guitars web site is that they hired a marketing guy. His first task was to redesign their catalog and then persuade the management to follow the catalog with a similar style web site. Only his vision for similar can be understood to mean the same as. Problem is that none of the divisions marketing/print/graphic designers play well with the web site developers as they have very limited understanding of how a web site should be constructed. It is very tough to take printed material and turn it into a web site especially when the pages are designed strictly with print in mind. As web developers, we all know this. Print and web are two different animals. I have put together a paper outling the pros and cons of sliced images vs. semantically correct written code. This will be distributed amongst the division managers at the next manager's meeting. After that, things will change. But that does not help the situation at hand. I turned to the only place where I knew I could get level headed and correct answers. Thank you for the answer you gave. It was much more helpful than others I got. Have a great day! Jeff - Original Message - From: John Foliot - WATS.ca [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2005 9:44 AM Subject: RE: [WSG] Spacing Issue Jeff D. Reid wrote: I joined this list well over two years ago. I have designed sites on my own utilizing tips and suggestions I have gathered from most people on the list and other lists. This is the FIRST time I have had my hands tied as to follow a Graphic Designer/Marketing expert who has new visions for OLP Guitars, which is owned by HHI, for whom I work in the capacity of Webmaster. Which means now you must pick your battles. Been there, done that grin. Welcome to the club. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Spacing Issue
G'day Thanks for the replies. I actually took a step back, re-evaluated the suggestions I got and came up with this test page which appears to work: http://www.olpguitars.com/index2.asp The top links all work and I retained the graphic designer's sliced image. oh yeah...it VALIDATES! A step in the right direction (in my classist opinion anyway). I won't go into all the remaining issues - you're probably aware of them anyway and have done the best you can with what you know. One thing though, what's that tiny text on the left? Is it legalese fine-print you are trying to hide from potential customers, or is it important information they came to the site for? Spare a thought for visitors who use MSIE (which likely will be most of them) and don't have perfect eyesight (which may be many of them). Regards -- Bert Doorn, Better Web Design http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/ Fast-loading, user-friendly websites ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Spacing Issue
I joined this list well over two years ago. I have designed sites on my own utilizing tips and suggestions I have gathered from most people on the list and other lists. This is the FIRST time I have had my hands tied as to follow a Graphic Designer/Marketing expert who has new visions for OLP Guitars, which is owned by HHI, for whom I work in the capacity of Webmaster. I have attended college and have received a degree in Web Site Design and Management. I have worked for various companies in both full-time and freelance capacities and never in my short 8 year career in web design have I ever had my knowledge or lack of knowledge questioned and thus insulted as you have managed to do in this statement to me: I won't go into all the remaining issues - you're probably aware of them anyway and have done the best you can with what you know. As for the text on the left. I am working within a pre-determined sized slice of the graphic designer's design. I have changed font faces, styles and sizes 100 times. Instead of chastising me (for doing something you have no idea of how I ended up concluding to) how about doing what this list is meant to do...HELP, ASSIST, POINT ME IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION! If you have an idea of how to make the font size larger as to be readable yet not break the table, please then by all means tell me. If it is to get rid of the table, then that is NOT a viable answer or solution for now, but in time that will come. I work for a company which up until 3 years ago, could have cared less about a web presence. I am basically in a weird position as the company's divisions start to grow and add on additional employees (design and marketing). Yes, I am in control of the sites that appear on our web servers. But yes, I am also needing to follow closely the assets that are provided to me regarding the building of the divisions web site as well. I have written a Web Standards paper which will be presented to each Division Manager at the next Managers Meeting. If you would like a copy of it so you can really determine my level of knowledge or understanding of standards and accessibility issues, I will send you one. I sent my first request prematurely to the list. I should have validated first but did not because I knew my problem was not in whether the site as a whole validated or not, but with another key element. I deserved the first answer I got. In all honesty, I do not feel I deserved your elitist opinion or remarks without some form of assistance on how to correct the problem within the boundaries I am restricted to with the version of this particular web site. Isn't that is what belonging to a specific online community, forum or email list all about in the first place? Oh well..end of rant. I will go back to lurk status and will learn the old fashioned way...trial and error until I can begin thinking of myself as some form of an elitist as well.. Thanks Jeff - Original Message - From: Bert Doorn [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2005 2:47 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Spacing Issue G'day Thanks for the replies. I actually took a step back, re-evaluated the suggestions I got and came up with this test page which appears to work: http://www.olpguitars.com/index2.asp The top links all work and I retained the graphic designer's sliced image. oh yeah...it VALIDATES! A step in the right direction (in my classist opinion anyway). I won't go into all the remaining issues - you're probably aware of them anyway and have done the best you can with what you know. One thing though, what's that tiny text on the left? Is it legalese fine-print you are trying to hide from potential customers, or is it important information they came to the site for? Spare a thought for visitors who use MSIE (which likely will be most of them) and don't have perfect eyesight (which may be many of them). Regards -- Bert Doorn, Better Web Design http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/ Fast-loading, user-friendly websites ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Spacing Issue
Jeff D. Reid wrote:
If you have an
idea of how to make the font size larger as to be readable yet not break the
table, please then by all means tell me.
http://www.olpguitars.com/index2.asp
This is one of many methods of setting relative font-sizes:
html, body{
font-family: Geneva, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif;
/* font-size: 9px;*/
font-size: 100.01%;
}
Then, delete all px font-sizes and px line-heights throughout the
remanider of your style sheet. Replace the px font-size with a percent
and the line-height with a raw number: #foo {font-size; 95%;
line-height: 1.2}.
Check your page with zoom cross-browser as you go along. The advantage
relative font-sizing is that IE users will be able to zoom the fonts, too.
Regards,
David Laakso
(btw, one takes their chances on any public forum-- roll with it, and
come up with a smart tableless layout)
--
David Laakso
http://www.dlaakso.com/
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
RE: [WSG] Spacing Issue
On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 11:24:13 +1000, Webmaster wrote: Are we not being a bit classist? (Coming in a little late here, guys - sorry!) Classist not to offer constructive help for a non-standards based implementation? I don't think so, for two main reasons: 1. The list is the web standards group, so a page that doesn't rely on standards is basically off topic. 2. Table-driven development methods involve a bunch of hacks [1] that people here either have never learnt (they joined the field recently) or are very rusty on (haven't used those techniques in years, oh I'm showing my age! ;)). So, the question is either off-topic, or not within our skill base. Either way, the OP won't get an answer. :( IMHO Lea ~ glad to hear you were able to improve the standards compliance within your constraints, Jeff! You'll get there! :) [1] no, thats not elitist either - standards-based methods generally require hacks too ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Spacing Issue
Thanks for the replies. I actually took a step back, re-evaluated the suggestions I got and came up with this test page which appears to work: http://www.olpguitars.com/index2.asp The top links all work and I retained the graphic designer's sliced image. oh yeah...it VALIDATES! Thanks Jeff. - Original Message - From: Jeff D. Reid [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 10:36 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Spacing Issue I am sorryhe says while walking away with his head hung in shame... I told them this would happen when trying to act legit and then designing sh..,er, crap. My hands are tied on this one. But I was able to fudge it by manipulating the background image somewhat. http://www.olpguitars.com/index2.asp Got it down to 43 errors at the W3C Validator. And it passes at the W3C CSS Valiadator. Will work on those remaining items in the mnorning...thanks to all. Good night. Jeff - Original Message - From: Peter Firminger [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 8:45 PM Subject: RE: [WSG] Spacing Issue Hmmm, back to the basics of this list. Please read the section on Asking for help on the list http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Validate your code. http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://www.olpguitars.com/olp_basses/occ/o cc_chopperbass.asp Fix those 125 errors and then ask again. Keep in mind that not many people here will want to help you sort out a design that uses tables for layout. P ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Spacing Issue
I have been working with these sliced images and occasionally run into this issue. At the bottom right just below the footer info is a small area that appears to have shifted somewhat. Can someone be so kind as to point me to what is causing this? http://www.olpguitars.com/olp_basses/occ/occ_chopperbass.asp Thanks Jeff ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Spacing Issue
Keep in mind that not many people here will want to help you sort out a design that uses tables for layout. Are we not being a bit classist? Although my current site rebuild is CSS heavy I have (after much struggling with a div-based header/3-column/footer layout that is accessible, cross-browser/-platform friendly, CSS switch-less and 'hack' free) reverted to a table for this purpose. I'm not looking for sympathy or abuse; this just seemed my best option at this time. If anyone can point me in the direction of a table-less layout that performs the above functions I would be mightily obliged. Best, Paul -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Peter Firminger Sent: Friday, 12 August 2005 10:46 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Spacing Issue Hmmm, back to the basics of this list. Please read the section on Asking for help on the list http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Validate your code. http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://www.olpguitars.com/olp_basses/occ/o cc_chopperbass.asp Fix those 125 errors and then ask again. Keep in mind that not many people here will want to help you sort out a design that uses tables for layout. P -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jeff Sent: Friday, August 12, 2005 12:43 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Spacing Issue I have been working with these sliced images and occasionally run into this issue. At the bottom right just below the footer info is a small area that appears to have shifted somewhat. Can someone be so kind as to point me to what is causing this? http://www.olpguitars.com/olp_basses/occ/occ_chopperbass.asp Thanks Jeff ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Spacing Issue
On 12 Aug 2005, at 1:24 PM, Webmaster wrote: Keep in mind that not many people here will want to help you sort out a design that uses tables for layout. Are we not being a bit classist? Not really. The name sums it up (web standards group) and using tables for layout is not really in keeping with the spirit of things... some people go so far as to frown upon using tables for tabular data ;-) a div-based header/3-column/footer layout that is accessible. http://www.google.com/search?q=3+column+accessible+css+layout yields some good results... kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Spacing Issue
Hi Paul, Keep in mind that not many people here will want to help you sort out a design that uses tables for layout. Are we not being a bit classist? I don't think so. This is from the guidelines: --- We encourage people to ask for help on the list. One of the primary goals of this group is to help members move towards building sites that are standards compliant, so we do not want to stop members posting questions of this nature to the list - in fact, we encourage it! --- The site in question heavily uses tables, not just for simple layout issues like multiple columns. It has a lot of other issues like px based font sizes and even me with decent eyesight have difficulty reading some of the text with no option to scale it up (in IE). There are some convention issues in there. I strongly suggest thinking about naming conventions. Never make class or ID names the same as element names (e.g. this site uses .body). What I was trying to do was give the member possible reasons why no-one had answered the post (they may have off list but we don't know that). I looked at it at the time, hit the validator and closed the browser, I assume others did the same. Later (as no-one had answered) I looked again (in the code this time) and found a site that it will be very difficult to diagnose due to the way it has been built. I don't think I'm classist at all, if I go to help you with a problem and you haven't done the basics to make it easy for me to help you, I don't have the time spend wading through it. Who knows (without spending an hour on it) what effect the 125 errors has on the issue in question. If it was using tables to simply sort out a column issue or similar I wouldn't have mentioned it. I was trying to be gentle and still provide some level of help. I guess we missed that train. My apologies to Jeff as this has gone a bit deeper than I wanted it too and maybe I should have handled it all off-list. P ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Spacing Issue
a div-based header/3-column/footer layout that is accessible. http://www.google.com/search?q=3+column+accessible+css+layout yields some good results... Sadly not. The search for a valid CSS/(X)HTML, hack-free, 3-column CSS layout continues. I'm still accepting offers for a solution. Even one that requires a combination of techniques which incorporate a baseline footer and other goodies. For those who are interested in using a real world example, please feel free to replicate my organisation's soon-to-launch site without tables. Now there's a Web stabdards challenge for you. http://d81314.i50.quadrahosting.com.au/ You can see I didn't try terribly hard. And, yes, I'm aware that TD widths are deprecated. But what's a boy to do, eh? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Spacing Issue
Webmaster wrote: Keep in mind that not many people here will want to help you sort out a design that uses tables for layout. Are we not being a bit classist? Maybe ever so slightly, but I guess that comes naturally when one tries to use standards as base for web design. Although my current site rebuild is CSS heavy I have (after much struggling with a div-based header/3-column/footer layout that is accessible, cross-browser/-platform friendly, CSS switch-less and 'hack' free) reverted to a table for this purpose. You may have good reasons for using tables for layout, but what you've described can be achieved by using the methods found here: http://www.alistapart.com/articles/negativemargins/ I've used (and misused) these methods with a mix of other standard-related methods for quite a while (well before that article was written), and have found them to work quite well across browser-land. Of course: creating CSS-layouts without some hacks and/or workarounds for IE/win is pretty difficult - I've never managed that. However, 'tables for layout' is in itself just one big hack, so I don't have a problem with a few dozen IE-hacks in my 'conditional commented' stylesheets. Better days ahead, they say... http://www.gunlaug.no/contents/molly_1_06.html ...example with typical misuse of negative margins and IE-hacks. regards Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Spacing Issue
I am sorryhe says while walking away with his head hung in shame... I told them this would happen when trying to act legit and then designing sh..,er, crap. My hands are tied on this one. But I was able to fudge it by manipulating the background image somewhat. http://www.olpguitars.com/index2.asp Got it down to 43 errors at the W3C Validator. And it passes at the W3C CSS Valiadator. Will work on those remaining items in the mnorning...thanks to all. Good night. Jeff - Original Message - From: Peter Firminger [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 8:45 PM Subject: RE: [WSG] Spacing Issue Hmmm, back to the basics of this list. Please read the section on Asking for help on the list http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Validate your code. http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://www.olpguitars.com/olp_basses/occ/o cc_chopperbass.asp Fix those 125 errors and then ask again. Keep in mind that not many people here will want to help you sort out a design that uses tables for layout. P -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jeff Sent: Friday, August 12, 2005 12:43 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Spacing Issue I have been working with these sliced images and occasionally run into this issue. At the bottom right just below the footer info is a small area that appears to have shifted somewhat. Can someone be so kind as to point me to what is causing this? http://www.olpguitars.com/olp_basses/occ/occ_chopperbass.asp Thanks Jeff ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Spacing Issue
The search for a valid CSS/(X)HTML, hack-free, 3-column CSS layout continues. I fear you are asking for the impossible, by requiring a 'hack-free' solution. Until such time as all UA's are on a level playing field regarding their implementation and interpretation of the standards hacks are always going to be required. Regards Scott Swabey Lafinboy Productions www.lafinboy.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Spacing Issue
Hi there, I just launched http://www.viavirtualearth.com/ which uses a three column layout + header. Yes - there are like two CSS hacks to make it work - but seriously, get over it... If there's a tradeoff between tables or two hacks I'll take the two hacks. Thanks, Tatham Oddie Fuel Advance - Ignite Your Idea www.fueladvance.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Webmaster Sent: Friday, 12 August 2005 12:22 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Spacing Issue a div-based header/3-column/footer layout that is accessible. http://www.google.com/search?q=3+column+accessible+css+layout yields some good results... Sadly not. The search for a valid CSS/(X)HTML, hack-free, 3-column CSS layout continues. I'm still accepting offers for a solution. Even one that requires a combination of techniques which incorporate a baseline footer and other goodies. For those who are interested in using a real world example, please feel free to replicate my organisation's soon-to-launch site without tables. Now there's a Web stabdards challenge for you. http://d81314.i50.quadrahosting.com.au/ You can see I didn't try terribly hard. And, yes, I'm aware that TD widths are deprecated. But what's a boy to do, eh? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Spacing Issue
If there's a tradeoff between tables or two hacks I'll take the two hacks. Hi Tatham, Looks good. I'll ignore the 'get over it' and move to accept your suggestion that a couple of hacks are acceptable. My only real issue with hacks is that they are not future proof. I see many sites not unlike Virtual Earth hitting the Net very soon. :) Well done. RIP Brian Grimmer ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Spacing Issue
Brian, I'll ignore the 'get over it' This was directed aimlessly at a lot of people, not personal. ;-) My only real issue with hacks is that they are not future proof. They main requirement for our hacks was to get IE into line. As the website has a largely Microsoft target audience, IE7 is already an issue for us. While we test in IE6 and IE7, we haven't yet had any differences. This may change in Beta 2, but for now it is all fine. Realistically, if you're desigining a site for a few hundred bucks and leaving it for 2 years, future proofing is a bit of an issue, but for most sites it's not that hard to keep ahead of the browser curve. Browsers are only release about every six months to a year at best. Well done. Thanks alot. I see many sites not unlike Virtual Earth hitting the Net very soon. :) I don't understand what you mean here? Thanks, Tatham Oddie Fuel Advance - Ignite Your Idea www.fueladvance.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Webmaster Sent: Friday, 12 August 2005 12:53 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Spacing Issue If there's a tradeoff between tables or two hacks I'll take the two hacks. Hi Tatham, Looks good. I'll ignore the 'get over it' and move to accept your suggestion that a couple of hacks are acceptable. My only real issue with hacks is that they are not future proof. I see many sites not unlike Virtual Earth hitting the Net very soon. :) Well done. RIP Brian Grimmer ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Spacing Issue
Webmaster wrote: a div-based header/3-column/footer layout that is accessible. http://www.google.com/search?q=3+column+accessible+css+layout yields some good results... Sadly not. The search for a valid CSS/(X)HTML, hack-free, 3-column CSS layout continues. Did you see this one?: http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/3cols/3cols/6.asp HTH, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Spacing Issue
The search for a valid CSS/(X)HTML, hack-free, 3-column CSS layout continues. Thierry wrote: Did you see this one?: http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/3cols/3cols/6.asp Again, nice. But negative margins are not a solution I enjoy and IE still requires scripting for height. The good news is that this thread has inspired me to go back to the drawing board and try again. Perhaps it's as a result of the tips I've picked up from this list that I seem to be achieving a much higher rate of success than the last time round. Suffice to say my results will eventually be posted here for your dissecting pleasure. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
