Re: [WSG] Standards based Drupal WYSIWYG Editor
On 01/03/2010, at 8:44 AM, Sam Dwyer dwyer@abc.net.au wrote: Hope some of that helps. (Hi to the mailing list by the way, this is my first post since I joined, look forward to engaging with you all) Thanks Sam and welcome, great to get your perspective on TinyMCE, if you ever do dig into extending CKEditor please let us know if it lives up to your first impressions. I'd be delighted to go down the WYSIWYM path if only to force those contributing content to think about the structure of it. Although it seems that knowledge of HTML is a prerequisite for the appreciation of markdown and the like. Ollie @ollicle *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] Standards based Drupal WYSIWYG Editor
I haven't had much of a look at the new CKEditor version but I was mightily impressed with the initial glance I had at it when he first released it. It looks like a *major* improvement on the original fckeditor. Cleaner code, more accessible and easier, cleaner ability to add plugins. If I was starting a new project that required a WYSWYG editor this would most certainly be the first on my list to evaluate. I've spent the last couple of years wrestling with tinymce which used to be my editor of choice until I had to start writing proper plugins for it. It was an impressive offering 4-5 years ago and as a straight 'drop in' product it's still amazing, but given the leaps and bounds javascript has made in the last couple of years I simply can't recommend it anymore with a clear conscience. If you do know your way around javascript you'll find hacking tinymce to do what you want a frustrating experience. If you don't know your way around javascript then basically you won't be able to hack around under the hood of tinymce at all. The only other editor I've looked at recently that I thought I'd be interested in was wymditor (http://www.wymeditor.org/) which is a 'what you see is what you mean' editor and may not be what some people require, but it is built on jquery (which should theoretically make extending it easier) and it does look quite nicely and cleanly done. Hope some of that helps. (Hi to the mailing list by the way, this is my first post since I joined, look forward to engaging with you all) Cheers, Sam Dwyer Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. The information contained in this email and any attachment is confidential and may contain legally privileged or copyright material. It is intended only for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are not permitted to disseminate, distribute or copy this email or any attachments. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this email from your system. The ABC does not represent or warrant that this transmission is secure or virus free. Before opening any attachment you should check for viruses. The ABC's liability is limited to resupplying any email and attachments. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] Standards based Drupal WYSIWYG Editor
I work for a small county government and we are working with a developer to setup a Drupal website. I am of the opinion that the editor can make or break the utilization of the website by our mostly not very savvy employees. If it is too hard or creates work then it will not be used or people will resist working with it. I am not at all happy with the FCK editor. I am starting to look at Time MCE and Standard. My preferences are standards compliance and semantically correct code, accessible interface (would be nice), the ability for users to copy and paste over their content and for the editor to strip the tags/formatting that are not acceptable and keep the ones that are. I need the ability to add and remove formatting options as well as rename the labels for the formatting options, especially the headers (via the administrative interface is preferable). What option do you have that might fall into this category and is there an online demo? Thanks all for helping me to keep my hair, Jim *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] Standards based Drupal WYSIWYG Editor
I'd be also be curious to learn more about any editors that can use a site's CSS. Just spent a day with FCKEditor only to find that there appears to be no way to have site CSS appear in the Style dropdown, w/o transforming the CSS into XML. For about 5 years, I've used InnovaStudio because it easily integrates use of site styles by the editor, but it's not commonly available within most CMS apps. Would like to learn about any other editors that can easily integrate with a site's CSS. Christie Mason *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] Standards based Drupal WYSIWYG Editor
-Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Kepler Gelotte Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 12:32 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Standards based Drupal WYSIWYG Editor Just spent a day with FCKEditor only to find that there appears to be no way to have site CSS appear in the Style dropdown, w/o transforming the CSS into XML. That is not entirely accurate. The fckstyles.xml tells the editor which styles the user can apply and how to apply them. The actual CSS definition is defined in your CSS file and can be modified without updating the fckstyles.xml again. [-CM-] I'd love to know more about where and how to accomplish that. Everything I found talked about FCKConfig.EditorAreaCSS = FCKConfig.EditorAreaStyles FCKConfig.ToolbarComboPreviewCSS But that doesn't change the styles in the style drop down to the site styles Christie Mason *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Standards based Drupal WYSIWYG Editor
We make extensive use of TinyMCE with Drupal (we're a Drupal development shop) - it's not perfect, but it does offer a lot of flexibility regarding acceptable tags, and we've been able to get it to provide XHTML compliant code. Combined with filters like Tidy, it's possible to ensure that you don't get non-compliant code being entered. rantThe biggest issue is the complexity of cleaning up cut-pasted content from MS Word... *that's* a problem. TinyMCE offers a Paste from Word function which strips most of the rubbish from Word-produced content, but it's a pain to use... or people assume that anything coming from MS Word is clearly well suited for the web... We spend a lot of time trying to discourage people from using Word for authoring web content, because it's a very poor tool for doing so, but we have a hard time suggesting a palatable alternative (people seem to find the idea of composing content in the actual TinyMCE interface totally absurd, which doesn't make much sense to me...)./rant Regards, Dave On 27/02/10 07:32, Kepler Gelotte wrote: Just spent a day with FCKEditor only to find that there appears to be no way to have site CSS appear in the Style dropdown, w/o transforming the CSS into XML. That is not entirely accurate. The fckstyles.xml tells the editor which styles the user can apply and how to apply them. The actual CSS definition is defined in your CSS file and can be modified without updating the fckstyles.xml again. Best regards, Kepler Gelotte Neighbor Webmaster, Inc. 156 Normandy Dr., Piscataway, NJ 08854 www.neighborwebmaster.com phone/fax: (732) 302-0904 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- Dave Lane, Egressive Ltd d...@egressive.com m +64212298147 p +6439633733 http://egressive.com Free/OpenSourceSoftware: because to share is human Only use Open Standards - w3.org, Drupal powers communities - drupal.org Effusion Group http://effusiongroup.com Software Patents kill innovation *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] Standards based Drupal WYSIWYG Editor
I used FCKeditor on a clients site - http://www.gablemarine.com/ When installed with the html purifier filter my client can create content that is entirely XHTML strict http://drupal.org/project/htmlpurifier - it helped a lot with sorting Word code too. Only thing is the client managed to build a bit of a mess on the project page when I gave him access to tables lol - won't be doing that with the next client! It was a bit of a pain to configure though as it uses its own caching system but it does a great job now it's up and running. Darren Lovelock MunkyOnline Web Design www.munkyonline.com +44 (0) 208 816 8893 Web Design Services: Brochure-style, Content Managed, E-commerce. Internet Marketing: Search Engine Optimisation, Link Building, Copywriting. -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Dave Lane Sent: 26 February 2010 19:37 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Standards based Drupal WYSIWYG Editor We make extensive use of TinyMCE with Drupal (we're a Drupal development shop) - it's not perfect, but it does offer a lot of flexibility regarding acceptable tags, and we've been able to get it to provide XHTML compliant code. Combined with filters like Tidy, it's possible to ensure that you don't get non-compliant code being entered. rantThe biggest issue is the complexity of cleaning up cut-pasted content from MS Word... *that's* a problem. TinyMCE offers a Paste from Word function which strips most of the rubbish from Word-produced content, but it's a pain to use... or people assume that anything coming from MS Word is clearly well suited for the web... We spend a lot of time trying to discourage people from using Word for authoring web content, because it's a very poor tool for doing so, but we have a hard time suggesting a palatable alternative (people seem to find the idea of composing content in the actual TinyMCE interface totally absurd, which doesn't make much sense to me...)./rant Regards, Dave On 27/02/10 07:32, Kepler Gelotte wrote: Just spent a day with FCKEditor only to find that there appears to be no way to have site CSS appear in the Style dropdown, w/o transforming the CSS into XML. That is not entirely accurate. The fckstyles.xml tells the editor which styles the user can apply and how to apply them. The actual CSS definition is defined in your CSS file and can be modified without updating the fckstyles.xml again. Best regards, Kepler Gelotte Neighbor Webmaster, Inc. 156 Normandy Dr., Piscataway, NJ 08854 www.neighborwebmaster.com phone/fax: (732) 302-0904 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- Dave Lane, Egressive Ltd d...@egressive.com m +64212298147 p +6439633733 http://egressive.com Free/OpenSourceSoftware: because to share is human Only use Open Standards - w3.org, Drupal powers communities - drupal.org Effusion Group http://effusiongroup.com Software Patents kill innovation *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Standards based Drupal WYSIWYG Editor
Hi James, On 27 February 2010 03:30, James O'Neill freexe...@gmail.com wrote: I am not at all happy with the FCK editor. I am starting to look at Time MCE and Standard. When you say FCK editor do you mean the current version? Now called CKEditor. Broadly, I’m very interested to hear comparisons or war stories from anyone who has extensive experience with more than one of these editors. Cheers Ollie *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] standards matter - an informationweek article
Do you have a link to the information week story? Nancy On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 9:53 PM, dwain dwain.alf...@gmail.com wrote: in the april 20th issue of informationweek there is an article about standards. the title of the article is standards matter - we all want interoperability, but are you willing to take vendors to task for breaking faith?. it was a good industry-wide account of the standards problem. web designers got a paragraph and i thought i would share it with the list. another high-profile standards failure is browser support for html and cascading style sheets. designers who don't know -- or don't care -- about the implications of proprietary extensions to html spew out web sites that work only in internet explorer for windows. i hope that this article gains some serious thought in upper, middle and lower management to insist on industry standards so that in our neck of the woods, the web will become a nicer place to navigate. we all know that browser manufacturers are trying to keep up with the latest developments, but it's the folks in the trenches, like us doing the work, that need the guidance into a better more compliant internet experience. just my $0.02. cheers, dwain -- Fear of the devil is one way of doubting God. - Kahlil Gibran *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] standards matter - an informationweek article
On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 8:20 AM, Nancy Johnson njohnso...@gmail.com wrote: Do you have a link to the information week story? Nancy here's the link: http://www.informationweek.com/news/infrastructure/management/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=216600011 cheers, dwain -- Fear of the devil is one way of doubting God. - Kahlil Gibran *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] standards matter - an informationweek article
I think he was referring to this story http://www.informationweek.com/news/infrastructure/management/showArticle.jh tml?articleID=216600011 Christie Mason -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Nancy Johnson Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 8:21 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] standards matter - an informationweek article Do you have a link to the information week story? Nancy *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] standards matter - an informationweek article
Interesting article. I hope it makes a difference Nancy On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 11:03 AM, Christie Mason cma...@managersforum.com wrote: I think he was referring to this story http://www.informationweek.com/news/infrastructure/management/showArticle.jh tml?articleID=216600011 Christie Mason -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Nancy Johnson Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 8:21 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] standards matter - an informationweek article Do you have a link to the information week story? Nancy *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] standards matter - an informationweek article
in the april 20th issue of informationweek there is an article about standards. the title of the article is standards matter - we all want interoperability, but are you willing to take vendors to task for breaking faith?. it was a good industry-wide account of the standards problem. web designers got a paragraph and i thought i would share it with the list. another high-profile standards failure is browser support for html and cascading style sheets. designers who don't know -- or don't care -- about the implications of proprietary extensions to html spew out web sites that work only in internet explorer for windows. i hope that this article gains some serious thought in upper, middle and lower management to insist on industry standards so that in our neck of the woods, the web will become a nicer place to navigate. we all know that browser manufacturers are trying to keep up with the latest developments, but it's the folks in the trenches, like us doing the work, that need the guidance into a better more compliant internet experience. just my $0.02. cheers, dwain -- Fear of the devil is one way of doubting God. - Kahlil Gibran *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] Standards in the community space
Hey WSGers, While this doesn¹t fall into our normal definition of technical¹ web standards I am positive meetings like this will help in our endeavour to define what standards will be necessary in the shifting online community. Hurry the tour starts Monday! The Digital Kingmaker is coming to Australia ³Obama¹s secret political weapon, Ben Self will visit Australia next week to tell the story of the most successful online political campaign in history. This tour is rarer than a Farnham farewell and will not be repeated. Register your interest now: Exclusive Executive Lunch at 12.30pm Sydney CBD on Monday 16 February Exclusive Executive Lunch at 12.30pm Melbourne CBD on Tuesday 17 February Communication Professionals Cocktails at 6pm Melbourne CBD on Tuesday 17 February Exclusive Executive Event Canberra CBD on Thursday 19th February BOOK HERE - http://couchcreative.com.au/kingmaker09/ READ MORE - Obama's web strategist to advise Rudd http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2009/02/13/1234028253832.html A reason to love him:- Despite willing to help out with its internet strategy, in a separate, video interview with The Australian Financial Review, Self criticised the Rudd Government's controversial plan to censor the internet, saying it's always a dangerous thing to start filtering content of any type. Hope to see some of you there, Dannielle *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] Standards way of getting div background color?
Dunno, if this has been asked before.
I've been looking wherever I can for a way to get a div's or any
element's background color in a sementic friendly way (ie. works in IE
and FF) using javascript.
so far i've tried the below:
document.getElementById('element').bgColor;
document.getElementById('element').style.backgroundColor;
TIA
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Re: [WSG] Standards way of getting div background color?
Use window.getComputedStyle for standard-compliant browsers and
element.currentStyle for IE.
https://developer.mozilla.org/en/DOM/window.getComputedStyle
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms535231(VS.85).aspx
On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 12:06, Dennis Suitters [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote:
Dunno, if this has been asked before.
I've been looking wherever I can for a way to get a div's or any element's
background color in a sementic friendly way (ie. works in IE and FF) using
javascript.
so far i've tried the below:
document.getElementById('element').bgColor;
document.getElementById('element').style.backgroundColor;
TIA
--
Алексей
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RE: [WSG] Standards and Adobe Contribute
What puts me off about about Contribute is the cost; very few of my clients are willing to pay that amount of cash. There aren't many open source alternatives to choose from, I'm currently riding with SnippetMaster ( do a search), one or two bugs, but all in all an excellent, web based alternative. There's a perfectly usable free version available and the full version only costs 23 GBP. Kieren From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Re: [WSG] Standards and Adobe ContributeDate: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 19:10:36 +1100Hi Several people are misunderstanding why some of us are challenging the use of Contribute (please note, challenging, not refusing) and why a consultant might discover (please note: discover, not insist) where a CMS might be a better solution for the client in the long run and better meets their own expressed business goals and defined measurable strategy (note: in line with their business goals and internal resources, not dictated to rudely). So please understand my position in this matter (I can't speak for others) when I say a simple CMS might achieve the goals you already have expressed (easy to edit, client stays outside of code, accessible and SEO friendly pages) and is worth considering and suggesting. All I said was it is your job to find the best fit of technology that meets their stated goals and available resources and not bow to their not necessarily wide-enough research. To reflect on the example you stated, where the client clicks a button on the existing site to edit the copy of the page therein; well what about posting news items in the site simply by send in an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] without even having to visit the site,which is possible with some CMS's or using a blog to increase presence and content interest which wordpress (installed in a hour and can move a large site's 50 pages of content into within a day) could easily mnage. The point was not to roll over and use the technology they request but to dig deeper into their business goals and resources and aims for the site, step back and analyse their needs, then return with a best fit for their time, aims, strategy and budget. Joe On 04/11/2008, at 1:02 AM, Susan Grossman wrote: On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 5:53 AM, James Farrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Guys,A client wants to use Adobe Contribute for content management.Is there any point writing standards complient code or will contribute butcher the code anyway?Can I use php at all with contribute? Would love to be able to include html files using php to avoid having to change loads of pages everytime navigation changes etc.James I do free work for non-profits, and many of them ask about using Contribute. A CMS won't work for them because most of them have a small existing website that they got someone to do at some point in the last few years and they're trying to change it/add to it/figure out how to do anything to it. They aren't willing to start from scratch and have a CMS set up for them, nor do the volunteers want to learn all about editing in a role based application, no matter how easy it is. These are the people who Contribute is a lifesaver for. I go in and clean up their stuff, make it into PHP and design includes they can't accidently edit and show them how to use Contribute by surfing to their web site and clicking the Contribute button. TaDa - they can edit, sans butchering.Yes there are better solutions out there, but there's nothing wrong with this solution. I don't feel it's my job to tell them that I won't help them unless they get on board with the latest and greatest. I'm here to help them make sure their web site is accessible and that they can change text on the few pages they'll update.For me, the client is always right. They know their business, their people, their limitations. That doesn't mean I can't say, Yes, though we could also do that by but in the end, they make the final decisions and a lot of the time I don't agree on everything, but they call the shots, and we have to be gracious. I try to teach as I go , but I don't force my clients to learn if they don't want to. And you might be surprised how many don't want to. -- Susan R. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmUnsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfmHelp: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Joseph Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] +61 (0)434 047 804http://www.typingthevoid.com http://twitter.com/wheelyweb http://www.linkedin.com/in/jortenzi Skype:wheelyweb http://au.movember.com/mospace/1714401***List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmUnsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfmHelp: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Catch up on all the latest celebrity gossip
Re: [WSG] Standards and Adobe Contribute
Hi Several people are misunderstanding why some of us are challenging the use of Contribute (please note, challenging, not refusing) and why a consultant might discover (please note: discover, not insist) where a CMS might be a better solution for the client in the long run and better meets their own expressed business goals and defined measurable strategy (note: in line with their business goals and internal resources, not dictated to rudely). So please understand my position in this matter (I can't speak for others) when I say a simple CMS might achieve the goals you already have expressed (easy to edit, client stays outside of code, accessible and SEO friendly pages) and is worth considering and suggesting. All I said was it is your job to find the best fit of technology that meets their stated goals and available resources and not bow to their not necessarily wide-enough research. To reflect on the example you stated, where the client clicks a button on the existing site to edit the copy of the page therein; well what about posting news items in the site simply by send in an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] without even having to visit the site,which is possible with some CMS's or using a blog to increase presence and content interest which wordpress (installed in a hour and can move a large site's 50 pages of content into within a day) could easily mnage. The point was not to roll over and use the technology they request but to dig deeper into their business goals and resources and aims for the site, step back and analyse their needs, then return with a best fit for their time, aims, strategy and budget. Joe On 04/11/2008, at 1:02 AM, Susan Grossman wrote: On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 5:53 AM, James Farrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Guys, A client wants to use Adobe Contribute for content management. Is there any point writing standards complient code or will contribute butcher the code anyway? Can I use php at all with contribute? Would love to be able to include html files using php to avoid having to change loads of pages everytime navigation changes etc. James I do free work for non-profits, and many of them ask about using Contribute. A CMS won't work for them because most of them have a small existing website that they got someone to do at some point in the last few years and they're trying to change it/add to it/figure out how to do anything to it. They aren't willing to start from scratch and have a CMS set up for them, nor do the volunteers want to learn all about editing in a role based application, no matter how easy it is. These are the people who Contribute is a lifesaver for. I go in and clean up their stuff, make it into PHP and design includes they can't accidently edit and show them how to use Contribute by surfing to their web site and clicking the Contribute button. TaDa - they can edit, sans butchering. Yes there are better solutions out there, but there's nothing wrong with this solution. I don't feel it's my job to tell them that I won't help them unless they get on board with the latest and greatest. I'm here to help them make sure their web site is accessible and that they can change text on the few pages they'll update. For me, the client is always right. They know their business, their people, their limitations. That doesn't mean I can't say, Yes, though we could also do that by but in the end, they make the final decisions and a lot of the time I don't agree on everything, but they call the shots, and we have to be gracious. I try to teach as I go , but I don't force my clients to learn if they don't want to. And you might be surprised how many don't want to. -- Susan R. Grossman [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joseph Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] +61 (0)434 047 804 http://www.typingthevoid.com http://twitter.com/wheelyweb http://www.linkedin.com/in/jortenzi Skype:wheelyweb http://au.movember.com/mospace/1714401 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Standards and Adobe Contribute
I think that was the point of both myself and Dave, Todd. Mark's vitriolic rant seemed to miss the point that the technology comes after you discover what the business requires, what their resources are, what the requirements of the site will be over the next 12-24 months, etc. not just say OK to contribute because the client says so before discovering much more important things And as for budget, well, Contribute at $99 is more expensive than many CMSs (twice the cost of the powerful EE and $99 more than Drupal). As you say, a god consultant will discover why they want Contribute and, upon discovering those needs, either continue with Contribute or offer a solution that meets their needs better, should that be the case, but it is the needs of the project that need to be discovered first, I'd have thought. Joe On 03/11/2008, at 12:21 AM, Todd Budnikas wrote: with respect to both sides here, I have had numerous clients come to me requesting Contribute as a solution. I would say the reason, in every case i believe, is the cost. It's a 1 time fee of $99. I imagine, that if you can offer something comparable or cheaper to them, they would appreciate the recommendation and scrap Contribute if the other product(s) worked better, were easier to maintain and implement, etc. I would guess here that the client isn't dictating technology, but budget for CMS. I mean, what are the chances they've used a bunch of solutions, and settled that Contribute is the best and meets their workflow? My recommendation is to try something like http://www.cushycms.com/ which is also free and is a hosted solution. I've used this with pretty good success. It's not without it's limitation, but it's extremely easy to use and met the needs of one of my clients. You obviously could go with a more common solution like Expression Engine, or Wordpress, etc. I would find out why your client wants to use Contribute, and if you'd rather not use it, then your job is to find something comparable or better (hopefully for the same cost or less) and state your case. Mark Harris wrote: Joe Ortenzi wrote: Contribute is not about content management as much as it is about allowing an in-house web team to share tasks without a proper CMS deployed. Thus your coder can code and the content writer can write but it can be all wrapped within a team. This is, frankly, Web 1.0, and your time and their money is better served by getting a simple CMS deployed that meets with their scope and strategy and will be easier to manage for everyone, client included. With respect, this is so much bollocks. The manner of deployment is always the client's choice. If you can offer her something better, by all means offer, but it's arrogant to tell the client you have to do it this way. Many clients won't have an in-house web team - they'll have one person to whom maintaining the website is only 1/4 of their job. Some outfits are still coming to grips with how they should be using the web and need baby steps. While it's a designer's job to help educate them, you can't drag them kicking and screaming into something they're not ready for. Regards Mark Harris *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joseph Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] +61 (0)434 047 804 http://www.typingthevoid.com http://twitter.com/wheelyweb http://www.linkedin.com/in/jortenzi Skype:wheelyweb http://au.movember.com/mospace/1714401 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Standards and Adobe Contribute
On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 5:53 AM, James Farrell [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: Hi Guys, A client wants to use Adobe Contribute for content management. Is there any point writing standards complient code or will contribute butcher the code anyway? Can I use php at all with contribute? Would love to be able to include html files using php to avoid having to change loads of pages everytime navigation changes etc. James I do free work for non-profits, and many of them ask about using Contribute. A CMS won't work for them because most of them have a small existing website that they got someone to do at some point in the last few years and they're trying to change it/add to it/figure out how to do anything to it. They aren't willing to start from scratch and have a CMS set up for them, nor do the volunteers want to learn all about editing in a role based application, no matter how easy it is. These are the people who Contribute is a lifesaver for. I go in and clean up their stuff, make it into PHP and design includes they can't accidently edit and show them how to use Contribute by surfing to their web site and clicking the Contribute button. TaDa - they can edit, sans butchering. Yes there are better solutions out there, but there's nothing wrong with this solution. I don't feel it's my job to tell them that I won't help them unless they get on board with the latest and greatest. I'm here to help them make sure their web site is accessible and that they can change text on the few pages they'll update. For me, the client is always right. They know their business, their people, their limitations. That doesn't mean I can't say, Yes, though we could also do that by but in the end, they make the final decisions and a lot of the time I don't agree on everything, but they call the shots, and we have to be gracious. I try to teach as I go , but I don't force my clients to learn if they don't want to. And you might be surprised how many don't want to. -- Susan R. Grossman [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Standards and Adobe Contribute
Hi Guys, Thank your for your insights and assistance on this topic. I am taking everyone's opinion into consideration and have received very usefull help and templates from several people. James 2008/11/3 Susan Grossman [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 5:53 AM, James Farrell [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: Hi Guys, A client wants to use Adobe Contribute for content management. Is there any point writing standards complient code or will contribute butcher the code anyway? Can I use php at all with contribute? Would love to be able to include html files using php to avoid having to change loads of pages everytime navigation changes etc. James I do free work for non-profits, and many of them ask about using Contribute. A CMS won't work for them because most of them have a small existing website that they got someone to do at some point in the last few years and they're trying to change it/add to it/figure out how to do anything to it. They aren't willing to start from scratch and have a CMS set up for them, nor do the volunteers want to learn all about editing in a role based application, no matter how easy it is. These are the people who Contribute is a lifesaver for. I go in and clean up their stuff, make it into PHP and design includes they can't accidently edit and show them how to use Contribute by surfing to their web site and clicking the Contribute button. TaDa - they can edit, sans butchering. Yes there are better solutions out there, but there's nothing wrong with this solution. I don't feel it's my job to tell them that I won't help them unless they get on board with the latest and greatest. I'm here to help them make sure their web site is accessible and that they can change text on the few pages they'll update. For me, the client is always right. They know their business, their people, their limitations. That doesn't mean I can't say, Yes, though we could also do that by but in the end, they make the final decisions and a lot of the time I don't agree on everything, but they call the shots, and we have to be gracious. I try to teach as I go , but I don't force my clients to learn if they don't want to. And you might be surprised how many don't want to. -- Susan R. Grossman [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Standards and Adobe Contribute
Mark, you seem to misunderstand what Dave and I are saying and maybe you so angry about something you can't even see you're contradicting yourself and claiming dave and I are saying different things when your examples, reflected back at us, clearly show paralell, not conflicting statements. In addition you seem to think I swan into an organisation and tell them how to run THEIR business, which is the last thing I do. As Dave says, a good website provider works in partnership with a business, and discovers and recommends technology that gets these business needs covered, You are confusing two sets of business aims, one is the client requiring a website that serves his business aims and two a supplier of said website who's business aim is to be paid for a good service to the client, which sometimes means giving them what they need (by working in close consultation with them) rather than what they think they want, which as you seem to be saying, they may not necessarily know, if their business knowledge is not about the web. And you know, my mechanic WILL tell me how to drive my car if I'm doing it wrong. stop riding the clutch, shift gears at a lower rev to save petrol, let the engine warm for a few moments before giving it a load, are all things you pay your mechanic good money for so your car runs better for longer, the expert advice he is good for. Mark, you misread both myself and Dave terribly badly. Joe On 02/11/2008, at 9:41 PM, Mark Harris wrote: Dave Lane wrote: I'm sorry, Mark, but that is not a winning strategy in business. Dave, the business decision is not that of the web designer. While web design may be his business, it's not the business of his client. As a web developer, you *must* design for maintainability. Anything else is a disservice to both your business and your customer. Not arguing, but it must also work for the client, otherwise you are merely building ongoing work for yourself, in doing the maintenance. Offer options, by all means, but the result *must* be within the client's capability set or it won't get used. How much value have you then added to the client's business by imposing your own ideas on their naivety? The customer is not always right. The customer hires you because they perceive you to have expertise they don't, and they trust your skill and judgement on their behalf. If they don't have that respect for your ability, they're not the right customer for you. Fine. Say so and get out, but if you take the job, you take the constraints and responsibilities that come with it. I'm not saying that you should tell them their wrong, but you should explain the shortcomings of the methods they request and explain the advantages of the tools you've chosen... if you can't do that then you probably haven't thought very carefully about choosing tools. That's not what Joe was advising. What he said was: you should never let the client specify the technology, that's YOUR job The technology you decide to deploy should be a result of having defined the strategy and scope of a project and identified the resources for ongoing content and support. which is a pretty tall ask for a web designer, not to mention arrogant. Do you get your mechanic to tell you how to drive your car? He's far more experienced with vehicles than you, so he should know, right? Ultimately, a business must select its technologies (the smallest set possible to do the job well), become expert in them, and then maintain those skills for the length of their relationship with their customers. See, it's the whole become expert with them that's the problem. They don't have the desire to become expert in something that is a commodity to them. Many companies don't have web specialists on staff. If they're lucky, they have a librarian, who does records management, maybe a little DTP and gets stuff onto the web. They don't *want* a web designer on board, or they'd be hiring one instead of farming the work out to you. If that's how they see it, that's their business. Myself, I'd try to get them to see that it's a major strategic part of their future business *but* if they won't go there, I'm going to build them something they feel comfortable with, with an outline of what it could become, if appropriate. I'm not going to push a company into Web 2.0 if they still believe a little man sits in the printer pushing out paper. I completely agree with Joe's statement - using an app like Contribute is a step backwards in most cases, both for the customer and for the web. If it works for them, it's their call. A simple site set up by someone who knows what they're doing can be managed just fine with Contribute. It's not likely to win any awards (and it probably won't do a lot for their bottom line) but we don't always get to paint the Mona Lisa. Sometimes,
Re: [WSG] Standards and Adobe Contribute
I'm sorry, Mark, but that is not a winning strategy in business. As a web developer, you *must* design for maintainability. Anything else is a disservice to both your business and your customer. The customer is not always right. The customer hires you because they perceive you to have expertise they don't, and they trust your skill and judgement on their behalf. If they don't have that respect for your ability, they're not the right customer for you. I'm not saying that you should tell them their wrong, but you should explain the shortcomings of the methods they request and explain the advantages of the tools you've chosen... if you can't do that then you probably haven't thought very carefully about choosing tools. Ultimately, a business must select its technologies (the smallest set possible to do the job well), become expert in them, and then maintain those skills for the length of their relationship with their customers. I completely agree with Joe's statement - using an app like Contribute is a step backwards in most cases, both for the customer and for the web. CMSs, if chosen wisely (and the open source ones are better than anything proprietary, so it'd be foolish not to go down the open source path), implemented by *knowledgeable* developers with an appreciation for web and software best practice (e.g. standards compliance, source code control, change control procedures, etc.) and the will to adhere to it, with ongoing maintenance in mind. Those who don't feel responsible for learning about and adhering to best practice should look for another line of work. The road is littered with the remains of web development companies who tried to support whatever solution de jeur their customer specified. If you customer requires you to use their choice of technologies rather than yours, my advice is to get a new customer. That sort of customer will make your life miserable and cost you money in the long run. Cheers, Dave Mark Harris wrote: Joe Ortenzi wrote: Contribute is not about content management as much as it is about allowing an in-house web team to share tasks without a proper CMS deployed. Thus your coder can code and the content writer can write but it can be all wrapped within a team. This is, frankly, Web 1.0, and your time and their money is better served by getting a simple CMS deployed that meets with their scope and strategy and will be easier to manage for everyone, client included. With respect, this is so much bollocks. The manner of deployment is always the client's choice. If you can offer her something better, by all means offer, but it's arrogant to tell the client you have to do it this way. Many clients won't have an in-house web team - they'll have one person to whom maintaining the website is only 1/4 of their job. Some outfits are still coming to grips with how they should be using the web and need baby steps. While it's a designer's job to help educate them, you can't drag them kicking and screaming into something they're not ready for. Regards Mark Harris *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Dave Lane = Egressive Ltd = [EMAIL PROTECTED] = m: +64 21 229 8147 p: +64 3 9633733 = Linux: it just tastes better = nosoftwarepatents http://egressive.com we only use open standards: http://w3.org Effusion Group Founding Member === http://effusiongroup.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Standards and Adobe Contribute
Dave Lane wrote: I'm sorry, Mark, but that is not a winning strategy in business. Dave, the business decision is not that of the web designer. While web design may be his business, it's not the business of his client. As a web developer, you *must* design for maintainability. Anything else is a disservice to both your business and your customer. Not arguing, but it must also work for the client, otherwise you are merely building ongoing work for yourself, in doing the maintenance. Offer options, by all means, but the result *must* be within the client's capability set or it won't get used. How much value have you then added to the client's business by imposing your own ideas on their naivety? The customer is not always right. The customer hires you because they perceive you to have expertise they don't, and they trust your skill and judgement on their behalf. If they don't have that respect for your ability, they're not the right customer for you. Fine. Say so and get out, but if you take the job, you take the constraints and responsibilities that come with it. I'm not saying that you should tell them their wrong, but you should explain the shortcomings of the methods they request and explain the advantages of the tools you've chosen... if you can't do that then you probably haven't thought very carefully about choosing tools. That's not what Joe was advising. What he said was: you should never let the client specify the technology, that's YOUR job The technology you decide to deploy should be a result of having defined the strategy and scope of a project and identified the resources for ongoing content and support. which is a pretty tall ask for a web designer, not to mention arrogant. Do you get your mechanic to tell you how to drive your car? He's far more experienced with vehicles than you, so he should know, right? Ultimately, a business must select its technologies (the smallest set possible to do the job well), become expert in them, and then maintain those skills for the length of their relationship with their customers. See, it's the whole become expert with them that's the problem. They don't have the desire to become expert in something that is a commodity to them. Many companies don't have web specialists on staff. If they're lucky, they have a librarian, who does records management, maybe a little DTP and gets stuff onto the web. They don't *want* a web designer on board, or they'd be hiring one instead of farming the work out to you. If that's how they see it, that's their business. Myself, I'd try to get them to see that it's a major strategic part of their future business *but* if they won't go there, I'm going to build them something they feel comfortable with, with an outline of what it could become, if appropriate. I'm not going to push a company into Web 2.0 if they still believe a little man sits in the printer pushing out paper. I completely agree with Joe's statement - using an app like Contribute is a step backwards in most cases, both for the customer and for the web. If it works for them, it's their call. A simple site set up by someone who knows what they're doing can be managed just fine with Contribute. It's not likely to win any awards (and it probably won't do a lot for their bottom line) but we don't always get to paint the Mona Lisa. Sometimes, we just put the colour on the canvas and move it about a little. CMSs, if chosen wisely (and the open source ones are better than anything proprietary, so it'd be foolish not to go down the open source path), implemented by *knowledgeable* developers with an appreciation for web and software best practice (e.g. standards compliance, source code control, change control procedures, etc.) and the will to adhere to it, with ongoing maintenance in mind. Your point assumes knowledgeable people doing the maintenance. My point says, if they're asking for Contribute, they're short on knowledgeable people. I agree completely about the OSS thing (obviously) but you need to remember that, for Joe Sixpack, OSS may still be the big scary thing. You've got to be ready for OSS and understand what you're doing before you'll bring it into your business. I know that doesn't make rational sense, but people do behave irrationally, especially about technology. Contribute comes with a brand that they know and they feel comfortable with that. Those who don't feel responsible for learning about and adhering to best practice should look for another line of work. Well, it's their business, isn't it? And, as a supplier, it's yours to supply what they need within the constraints they specify. It's also your job to give them something they will use. Drupal may be simple for thee and me to manage, but the boss's PA will be very wary when faced with the options contained within. The road is littered with the remains of web development
Re: [WSG] Standards and Adobe Contribute
with respect to both sides here, I have had numerous clients come to me requesting Contribute as a solution. I would say the reason, in every case i believe, is the cost. It's a 1 time fee of $99. I imagine, that if you can offer something comparable or cheaper to them, they would appreciate the recommendation and scrap Contribute if the other product(s) worked better, were easier to maintain and implement, etc. I would guess here that the client isn't dictating technology, but budget for CMS. I mean, what are the chances they've used a bunch of solutions, and settled that Contribute is the best and meets their workflow? My recommendation is to try something like http://www.cushycms.com/ which is also free and is a hosted solution. I've used this with pretty good success. It's not without it's limitation, but it's extremely easy to use and met the needs of one of my clients. You obviously could go with a more common solution like Expression Engine, or Wordpress, etc. I would find out why your client wants to use Contribute, and if you'd rather not use it, then your job is to find something comparable or better (hopefully for the same cost or less) and state your case. Mark Harris wrote: Joe Ortenzi wrote: Contribute is not about content management as much as it is about allowing an in-house web team to share tasks without a proper CMS deployed. Thus your coder can code and the content writer can write but it can be all wrapped within a team. This is, frankly, Web 1.0, and your time and their money is better served by getting a simple CMS deployed that meets with their scope and strategy and will be easier to manage for everyone, client included. With respect, this is so much bollocks. The manner of deployment is always the client's choice. If you can offer her something better, by all means offer, but it's arrogant to tell the client you have to do it this way. Many clients won't have an in-house web team - they'll have one person to whom maintaining the website is only 1/4 of their job. Some outfits are still coming to grips with how they should be using the web and need baby steps. While it's a designer's job to help educate them, you can't drag them kicking and screaming into something they're not ready for. Regards Mark Harris *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
I'm currently on leave - returning to Hobart on the 17th was( Re: [WSG] Standards and Adobe Contribute )
Hi, I'm currently on leave until the 17th of November. For New Zealand inquiries please contact Patrick FitzGerald (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) For Tasmanian / Support inquiries please contact either: Casey Farrell (Implementation) (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) Amanda Brown (Project Management) (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) Narelle Davis (Training) (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) Micky Gough (Support) (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) Kidn Regards Karl Davidson *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** ---BeginMessage--- Hello Mark, Mark Harris wrote: Dave, the business decision is not that of the web designer. While web design may be his business, it's not the business of his client. If it's not the decision of the web developer, then I don't expect that web developer to be around for long. As a web developer, you *must* design for maintainability. Anything else is a disservice to both your business and your customer. Not arguing, but it must also work for the client, otherwise you are merely building ongoing work for yourself, in doing the maintenance. Offer options, by all means, but the result *must* be within the client's capability set or it won't get used. How much value have you then added to the client's business by imposing your own ideas on their naivety? I disagree here. The developer provides support - the customer chooses the developer based on that ability (assuming the customer isn't totally naive, which is probably not a safe assumption), and values their ability to provide that support. The customer should *want* a developer who focuses on the smallest possible set of technologies (that's not *too* small to fulfil the requirements). Otherwise the developer will be likely to be stretched too far. The customer is not always right. The customer hires you because they perceive you to have expertise they don't, and they trust your skill and judgement on their behalf. If they don't have that respect for your ability, they're not the right customer for you. Fine. Say so and get out, but if you take the job, you take the constraints and responsibilities that come with it. Agreed. It's the web developer's business decision in that case. Those who take any work that comes their way regardless of the technologies specified reek of desperation... (which, ultimately, leads to lack of respect from the customer) I'm not saying that you should tell them their wrong, but you should explain the shortcomings of the methods they request and explain the advantages of the tools you've chosen... if you can't do that then you probably haven't thought very carefully about choosing tools. That's not what Joe was advising. What he said was: you should never let the client specify the technology, that's YOUR job The technology you decide to deploy should be a result of having defined the strategy and scope of a project and identified the resources for ongoing content and support. which is a pretty tall ask for a web designer, not to mention arrogant. Do you get your mechanic to tell you how to drive your car? He's far more experienced with vehicles than you, so he should know, right? If my mechanic suggests that I alter the way I drive to reduce the maintenance requirements and therefore cost of running my vehicle, and I trust him/her, you better believe I'll listen. I'd say it'd be a foolish customer who didn't. Ultimately, a business must select its technologies (the smallest set possible to do the job well), become expert in them, and then maintain those skills for the length of their relationship with their customers. See, it's the whole become expert with them that's the problem. They don't have the desire to become expert in something that is a commodity to them. Many companies don't have web specialists on staff. If they're lucky, they have a librarian, who does records management, maybe a little DTP and gets stuff onto the web. They don't *want* a web designer on board, or they'd be hiring one instead of farming the work out to you. Customers will become expert in whatever technology they're convinced is best for them, and is well supported. But that's not what I was talking about in the above paragraph. The business I was referring to was the web developer - if the web developer isn't experienced with his/her tools, then s/he's a cowboy/girl :) If that's how they see it, that's their business. Myself, I'd try to get them to see that it's a major strategic part of their future business *but* if they won't go there, I'm going to build them something they feel comfortable with, with an outline of what it could become, if appropriate. I'm not going to push a company
RE: [WSG] Standards and Adobe Contribute [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]
Reiterating what Gerard said yesterday, my experience has also been that the code is as compliant as the template you designed for the page. I've implemented many contribute systems for clients and without exception they've found it easy to use and does everything that they want. Some of these clients have previously had more custom CMSs that have eventually fallen over, mainly because the group that set up the system either folded or didn't care to provide ongoing support (if I had a dollar for every time a client said their web designer just wasn't answering their calls and emails...) I think it's great for smaller clients because it's easy to use, very affordable to implement and if you make your templates right, makes pages in compliant code. If something goes wrong, because it's a mainstream product, there's plenty of developers who can modify the system. Having said that I'm currently working with an open source solution for a larger web site. We decided that a Dreamweaver Contribute combination probably wasn't robust enough for what we need and with a reasonable budget we could get much more from a customised open source solution. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dave Lane Sent: Sunday, 2 November 2008 7:06 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Standards and Adobe Contribute I'm sorry, Mark, but that is not a winning strategy in business. As a web developer, you *must* design for maintainability. Anything else is a disservice to both your business and your customer. The customer is not always right. The customer hires you because they perceive you to have expertise they don't, and they trust your skill and judgement on their behalf. If they don't have that respect for your ability, they're not the right customer for you. I'm not saying that you should tell them their wrong, but you should explain the shortcomings of the methods they request and explain the advantages of the tools you've chosen... if you can't do that then you probably haven't thought very carefully about choosing tools. Ultimately, a business must select its technologies (the smallest set possible to do the job well), become expert in them, and then maintain those skills for the length of their relationship with their customers. I completely agree with Joe's statement - using an app like Contribute is a step backwards in most cases, both for the customer and for the web. CMSs, if chosen wisely (and the open source ones are better than anything proprietary, so it'd be foolish not to go down the open source path), implemented by *knowledgeable* developers with an appreciation for web and software best practice (e.g. standards compliance, source code control, change control procedures, etc.) and the will to adhere to it, with ongoing maintenance in mind. Those who don't feel responsible for learning about and adhering to best practice should look for another line of work. The road is littered with the remains of web development companies who tried to support whatever solution de jeur their customer specified. If you customer requires you to use their choice of technologies rather than yours, my advice is to get a new customer. That sort of customer will make your life miserable and cost you money in the long run. Cheers, Dave Mark Harris wrote: Joe Ortenzi wrote: Contribute is not about content management as much as it is about allowing an in-house web team to share tasks without a proper CMS deployed. Thus your coder can code and the content writer can write but it can be all wrapped within a team. This is, frankly, Web 1.0, and your time and their money is better served by getting a simple CMS deployed that meets with their scope and strategy and will be easier to manage for everyone, client included. With respect, this is so much bollocks. The manner of deployment is always the client's choice. If you can offer her something better, by all means offer, but it's arrogant to tell the client you have to do it this way. Many clients won't have an in-house web team - they'll have one person to whom maintaining the website is only 1/4 of their job. Some outfits are still coming to grips with how they should be using the web and need baby steps. While it's a designer's job to help educate them, you can't drag them kicking and screaming into something they're not ready for. Regards Mark Harris *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Dave Lane = Egressive Ltd = [EMAIL PROTECTED] = m: +64 21 229 8147 p: +64 3 9633733 = Linux: it just tastes better = nosoftwarepatents http://egressive.com we only use open standards: http://w3.org Effusion
I'm currently on leave - returning to Hobart on the 17th was( RE: [WSG] Standards and Adobe Contribute [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED] )
Hi, I'm currently on leave until the 17th of November. For New Zealand inquiries please contact Patrick FitzGerald (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) For Tasmanian / Support inquiries please contact either: Casey Farrell (Implementation) (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) Amanda Brown (Project Management) (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) Narelle Davis (Training) (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) Micky Gough (Support) (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) Kidn Regards Karl Davidson *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** ---BeginMessage--- Reiterating what Gerard said yesterday, my experience has also been that the code is as compliant as the template you designed for the page. I've implemented many contribute systems for clients and without exception they've found it easy to use and does everything that they want. Some of these clients have previously had more custom CMSs that have eventually fallen over, mainly because the group that set up the system either folded or didn't care to provide ongoing support (if I had a dollar for every time a client said their web designer just wasn't answering their calls and emails...) I think it's great for smaller clients because it's easy to use, very affordable to implement and if you make your templates right, makes pages in compliant code. If something goes wrong, because it's a mainstream product, there's plenty of developers who can modify the system. Having said that I'm currently working with an open source solution for a larger web site. We decided that a Dreamweaver Contribute combination probably wasn't robust enough for what we need and with a reasonable budget we could get much more from a customised open source solution. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dave Lane Sent: Sunday, 2 November 2008 7:06 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Standards and Adobe Contribute I'm sorry, Mark, but that is not a winning strategy in business. As a web developer, you *must* design for maintainability. Anything else is a disservice to both your business and your customer. The customer is not always right. The customer hires you because they perceive you to have expertise they don't, and they trust your skill and judgement on their behalf. If they don't have that respect for your ability, they're not the right customer for you. I'm not saying that you should tell them their wrong, but you should explain the shortcomings of the methods they request and explain the advantages of the tools you've chosen... if you can't do that then you probably haven't thought very carefully about choosing tools. Ultimately, a business must select its technologies (the smallest set possible to do the job well), become expert in them, and then maintain those skills for the length of their relationship with their customers. I completely agree with Joe's statement - using an app like Contribute is a step backwards in most cases, both for the customer and for the web. CMSs, if chosen wisely (and the open source ones are better than anything proprietary, so it'd be foolish not to go down the open source path), implemented by *knowledgeable* developers with an appreciation for web and software best practice (e.g. standards compliance, source code control, change control procedures, etc.) and the will to adhere to it, with ongoing maintenance in mind. Those who don't feel responsible for learning about and adhering to best practice should look for another line of work. The road is littered with the remains of web development companies who tried to support whatever solution de jeur their customer specified. If you customer requires you to use their choice of technologies rather than yours, my advice is to get a new customer. That sort of customer will make your life miserable and cost you money in the long run. Cheers, Dave Mark Harris wrote: Joe Ortenzi wrote: Contribute is not about content management as much as it is about allowing an in-house web team to share tasks without a proper CMS deployed. Thus your coder can code and the content writer can write but it can be all wrapped within a team. This is, frankly, Web 1.0, and your time and their money is better served by getting a simple CMS deployed that meets with their scope and strategy and will be easier to manage for everyone, client included. With respect, this is so much bollocks. The manner of deployment is always the client's choice. If you can offer her something better, by all means offer, but it's arrogant to tell the client you have to do it this way. Many clients won't have an in-house web team - they'll have one person to whom maintaining the website is only 1/4 of their job
Re: [WSG] Standards and Adobe Contribute
With respect Mark, Please do not misrepresent me. I did not say the client had to do it my way, to the contrary, I said in my post, in a portion you did not include, that the technology used must be derived from a business strategy and a needs scope of the site. To wit: The technology you decide to deploy should be a result of having defined the strategy and scope of a project and identified the resources for ongoing content and support. I never said all clients need to have a web team either, I just stated where, in my experience, Contribute would be useful and has aided workflow and has operated well. And I completely agree, no-one in their right mind would drag a client, child, dog or whatever, kicking and screaming towards improvement. But surely a client sees the benefit of being able to edit and create their own content, and one proposing Contribute already has this in mind. It is up to we professionals to show them an option that goes towards their own content supply, but in a more integrated fashion than Contribute can manage. Joe On 02/11/2008, at 4:43 PM, Mark Harris wrote: Joe Ortenzi wrote: Contribute is not about content management as much as it is about allowing an in-house web team to share tasks without a proper CMS deployed. Thus your coder can code and the content writer can write but it can be all wrapped within a team. This is, frankly, Web 1.0, and your time and their money is better served by getting a simple CMS deployed that meets with their scope and strategy and will be easier to manage for everyone, client included. With respect, this is so much bollocks. The manner of deployment is always the client's choice. If you can offer her something better, by all means offer, but it's arrogant to tell the client you have to do it this way. Many clients won't have an in-house web team - they'll have one person to whom maintaining the website is only 1/4 of their job. Some outfits are still coming to grips with how they should be using the web and need baby steps. While it's a designer's job to help educate them, you can't drag them kicking and screaming into something they're not ready for. Regards Mark Harris *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joseph Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] +61 (0)434 047 804 http://www.typingthevoid.com http://twitter.com/wheelyweb http://www.linkedin.com/in/jortenzi Skype:wheelyweb http://au.movember.com/mospace/1714401 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
I'm currently on leave - returning to Hobart on the 17th was( Re: [WSG] Standards and Adobe Contribute )
Hi, I'm currently on leave until the 17th of November. For New Zealand inquiries please contact Patrick FitzGerald (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) For Tasmanian / Support inquiries please contact either: Casey Farrell (Implementation) (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) Amanda Brown (Project Management) (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) Narelle Davis (Training) (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) Micky Gough (Support) (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) Kidn Regards Karl Davidson *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** ---BeginMessage--- With respect Mark, Please do not misrepresent me. I did not say the client had to do it my way, to the contrary, I said in my post, in a portion you did not include, that the technology used must be derived from a business strategy and a needs scope of the site. To wit: The technology you decide to deploy should be a result of having defined the strategy and scope of a project and identified the resources for ongoing content and support. I never said all clients need to have a web team either, I just stated where, in my experience, Contribute would be useful and has aided workflow and has operated well. And I completely agree, no-one in their right mind would drag a client, child, dog or whatever, kicking and screaming towards improvement. But surely a client sees the benefit of being able to edit and create their own content, and one proposing Contribute already has this in mind. It is up to we professionals to show them an option that goes towards their own content supply, but in a more integrated fashion than Contribute can manage. Joe On 02/11/2008, at 4:43 PM, Mark Harris wrote: Joe Ortenzi wrote: Contribute is not about content management as much as it is about allowing an in-house web team to share tasks without a proper CMS deployed. Thus your coder can code and the content writer can write but it can be all wrapped within a team. This is, frankly, Web 1.0, and your time and their money is better served by getting a simple CMS deployed that meets with their scope and strategy and will be easier to manage for everyone, client included. With respect, this is so much bollocks. The manner of deployment is always the client's choice. If you can offer her something better, by all means offer, but it's arrogant to tell the client you have to do it this way. Many clients won't have an in-house web team - they'll have one person to whom maintaining the website is only 1/4 of their job. Some outfits are still coming to grips with how they should be using the web and need baby steps. While it's a designer's job to help educate them, you can't drag them kicking and screaming into something they're not ready for. Regards Mark Harris *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joseph Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] +61 (0)434 047 804 http://www.typingthevoid.com http://twitter.com/wheelyweb http://www.linkedin.com/in/jortenzi Skype:wheelyweb http://au.movember.com/mospace/1714401 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** ---End Message---
Re: [WSG] Standards and Adobe Contribute
On Sun, 2008-11-02 at 08:21 -0500, Todd Budnikas wrote: with respect to both sides here, I have had numerous clients come to me requesting Contribute as a solution. I would say the reason, in every case i believe, is the cost. It's a 1 time fee of $99. I imagine, that if you can offer something comparable or cheaper to them, they would appreciate the recommendation and scrap Contribute if the other product(s) worked better, were easier to maintain and implement, etc. I would guess here that the client isn't dictating technology, but budget for CMS. I mean, what are the chances they've used a bunch of solutions, and settled that Contribute is the best and meets their workflow? I had not heard of Contribute but from what I see searching on it, it looks to me like a desktop application sort of like Dreamweaver... ? regarding costs: There are plenty of free/open source CMS out there (eg xoops, drupal, etc) and for basic stuff a lot of them are pretty easy to set up so long as the web host has the required software installed (php, mysql, etc) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Standards and Adobe Contribute
Hi Guys, A client wants to use Adobe Contribute for content management. Is there any point writing standards complient code or will contribute butcher the code anyway? Can I use php at all with contribute? Would love to be able to include html files using php to avoid having to change loads of pages everytime navigation changes etc. James *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Standards and Adobe Contribute
Hi James, If you start with a standards compliant dreamweaver template and define the editable regions then Contribute should be able to play nice. Any php code that is NOT part of the editable regions will also be safe. If you are not using dreamweaver then there are additional steps that you will need to take to create template based files that work with Adobe Contribute. Gerard C. Greenidge Manager, Web Services California State University, Office of the Chancellor 401 Golden Shore Long Beach, CA 90802 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 562-951-4466 - Desk 562-519-2639 - Mobile -Original Message- From: James Farrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: 11/1/08 6:56 AM Subject: [WSG] Standards and Adobe Contribute Hi Guys, A client wants to use Adobe Contribute for content management. Is there any point writing standards complient code or will contribute butcher the code anyway? Can I use php at all with contribute? Would love to be able to include html files using php to avoid having to change loads of pages everytime navigation changes etc. James *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Standards and Adobe Contribute
Hi James Oddly, someone asked a similar question today in LinkedIn. http://www.linkedin.com/answers/technology/web-development/TCH_WDD/355859-15475515 Contribute is not about content management and you should never let the client specify the technology, that's YOUR job The technology you decide to deploy should be a result of having defined the strategy and scope of a project and identified the resources for ongoing content and support. It may be possible to use PHP for what you say, but maybe you wan to look at SHTML instead for server side scripting. I understand Dreamweaver is better with PHP than it used to be but it can easily go pear shaped if the client is not either severely restricted or understands HTML well. Expectations may be shattered if the client has seen a sales pitch of Adobe Contribute and thinks they can do what they like with a page. Then they'll want the template modified when they can't then the IA gets messed up, then the nav needs changing, then they don't realise it's better to add news rather than replace it (for SEO) an the meta no longer gels with the page content I could go on Contribute is not about content management as much as it is about allowing an in-house web team to share tasks without a proper CMS deployed. Thus your coder can code and the content writer can write but it can be all wrapped within a team. This is, frankly, Web 1.0, and your time and their money is better served by getting a simple CMS deployed that meets with their scope and strategy and will be easier to manage for everyone, client included. joe On 02/11/2008, at 12:53 AM, James Farrell wrote: Hi Guys, A client wants to use Adobe Contribute for content management. Is there any point writing standards complient code or will contribute butcher the code anyway? Can I use php at all with contribute? Would love to be able to include html files using php to avoid having to change loads of pages everytime navigation changes etc. James *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joseph Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] +61 (0)434 047 804 http://www.typingthevoid.com http://twitter.com/wheelyweb http://www.linkedin.com/in/jortenzi Skype:wheelyweb *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Standards and Adobe Contribute
Joe Ortenzi wrote: Contribute is not about content management as much as it is about allowing an in-house web team to share tasks without a proper CMS deployed. Thus your coder can code and the content writer can write but it can be all wrapped within a team. This is, frankly, Web 1.0, and your time and their money is better served by getting a simple CMS deployed that meets with their scope and strategy and will be easier to manage for everyone, client included. With respect, this is so much bollocks. The manner of deployment is always the client's choice. If you can offer her something better, by all means offer, but it's arrogant to tell the client you have to do it this way. Many clients won't have an in-house web team - they'll have one person to whom maintaining the website is only 1/4 of their job. Some outfits are still coming to grips with how they should be using the web and need baby steps. While it's a designer's job to help educate them, you can't drag them kicking and screaming into something they're not ready for. Regards Mark Harris *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Standards compliance and Autocomplete
Hi Guys, Just wondering if there is a standards compliant way of implementing 'autocomplete' on forms, which I believe is proprietry...? An example might be that there is a login and password field on a banking site and you don't want the browser to remember the data. I realise there are ways around this and that smart people can still work it out :) Thanks, Lisa -- Lisa Herrod Web Usability: User Experience Research, Consulting and Training Business: http://www.Scenarioseven.com.au Blog: http://www.Scenariogirl.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Standards compliance and Autocomplete
Lisa Herrod wrote: Just wondering if there is a standards compliant way of implementing 'autocomplete' on forms, which I believe is proprietry...? Not tested it, but...could you inject the autocomplete=off via javascript to the form element? An example might be that there is a login and password field on a banking site and you don't want the browser to remember the data. I realise there are ways around this and that smart people can still work it out :) Again, not tested, but unless I'm mistaken: when using https, the browser doesn't cache/autocomplete (I may be talking out of my rear here, but it does ring a vague bell). If all else fails, I'd rather have an invalid attribute (with a good rationale why it was used) that doesn't have adverse effects (as opposed to invalid elements, which have the potential of messing up the DOM more dramatically) any day if it actually provides an improvement to usability. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: Re: [WSG] Standards compliance and Autocomplete
I have had the same question fluttering around in my head. the thought process for me begins with Accessibility: can other people still get to the search result that the auto complete is attempting to show if the are using a screen reader or have javascript turned off, or there are bugs (like viewing via a mobile device). Then there is the standards way of marking up information and following all the other best practice ways of doing things. William Patrick H. Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lisa Herrod wrote: Just wondering if there is a standards compliant way of implementing 'autocomplete' on forms, which I believe is proprietry...? Not tested it, but...could you inject the autocomplete=off via javascript to the form element? An example might be that there is a login and password field on a banking site and you don't want the browser to remember the data. I realise there are ways around this and that smart people can still work it out :) Again, not tested, but unless I'm mistaken: when using https, the browser doesn't cache/autocomplete (I may be talking out of my rear here, but it does ring a vague bell). If all else fails, I'd rather have an invalid attribute (with a good rationale why it was used) that doesn't have adverse effects (as opposed to invalid elements, which have the potential of messing up the DOM more dramatically) any day if it actually provides an improvement to usability. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re÷dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Standards compliance and Autocomplete
2008/7/1 Patrick H. Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Lisa Herrod wrote: Just wondering if there is a standards compliant way of implementing 'autocomplete' on forms, which I believe is proprietry...? Not tested it, but...could you inject the autocomplete=off via javascript to the form element? Thanks Pat, yeah that's what I thought. I wanted confirmation from smart people like you though :) If all else fails, I'd rather have an invalid attribute (with a good rationale why it was used) that doesn't have adverse effects (as opposed to invalid elements, which have the potential of messing up the DOM more dramatically) any day if it actually provides an improvement to usability. Yeah that's what I reckon too. if all else passes i can live with something like this. But I did want to see if there was anything out there before I went with it. Thanks for that ;) lisa -- Lisa Herrod Web Usability: User Experience Research, Consulting and Training Business: http://www.Scenarioseven.com.au Blog: http://www.Scenariogirl.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Standards compliant CMS?
Hi Adam, We've tried developing in-house ourselves but we've found the solutions we have in place has become difficult to maintain. With a pre-existing CMS and a solid community behind it we won't have to build upgrades ourselves, we simply need to install them. I've heard lots of good things about Zend framework though. Unfortunately we haven't found any CMS system which fits the above criteria that uses it. Cheers, Sarah On 3/13/08, Adam Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have developed my own cms system - it does not limit designs at all - let your designer go wild. It is very easy to use for the end user. 100% standards compliant (unless the person that creates the sites templates does not know what they are doing). I found the problem with most solutions is that they are bloatware - ie way to many features with no real benefits. The way my system works is that I can easily plugin modules as my clients need them - ie. Ecommerce system, blog, forum etc. I can create basic apps in a matter of a few hours. It is written with PHP5 (utilising zend framework). I think that for me the investment in time building an inhouse solution has been really worth it. Cheers Adam On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 3:05 PM, Sarah Simmonds [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi WSGers, We're currently looking to move all of our websites to a single Content Management System. As part of the CMS evaluation process we're interested in finding out what's currently in use out there. So my question is three fold: 1) What CMS system do you use to manage multiple websites? 2) How well has your CMS held up to expectations? Does it handle scaling, was it easy to learn, what were the drawbacks (if any)? 3) Does your CMS solution get in the way of producing elegant, standards compliant websites? Is there special considerations for standards and accessibility built into your CMS? There's lots of solutions out there, but unfortunately for many it's not a simple apples-to-apples comparison. Cheers, Sarah -- -- Sarah Simmonds - Melbourne IT Web Developer Member of the Web Standards Group Member of the Web Industry Professionals Association Graduate Computer Scientist, RMIT - *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- - http://myfitness.ning.com A community of people that care about their health and fitness Free fitness videos, recipes, blogs, photos etc. -- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- -- Sarah Simmonds - Melbourne IT Web Developer Member of the Web Standards Group Member of the Web Industry Professionals Association Graduate Computer Scientist, RMIT - *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Standards compliant CMS?
Hi Richard, Thanks for your suggestion, MySource Matrix is already on our list of solutions to evaluate. I didn't know Squiz has an office in Melbourne though! Along with solid community support we're also looking for a solution which can supply commercial support should we need it, and MySource Matrix certainly fits the bill. I'll keep your contact in mind. Thanks again! Cheers, Sarah On 3/13/08, Richard Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Sarah, I have worked with Squiz's cms for over 3 years now. They develop an Open Source content management system called MySource Matrix. I would seriously recommend having a free demonstration (they can to it online via screen sharing) or they have an office in Melbourne. More information about the CMS here: http://matrix.squiz.net The company Squiz is essentially a professional services company that offers services around the MySource Matrix product. My contact there is Lee Bollom ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) 1300 130 661 he's a nice guy, feel free to give him a call... I hope that helps. Good luck, Rich On 13/03/2008, Adam Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have developed my own cms system - it does not limit designs at all - let your designer go wild. It is very easy to use for the end user. 100% standards compliant (unless the person that creates the sites templates does not know what they are doing). I found the problem with most solutions is that they are bloatware - ie way to many features with no real benefits. The way my system works is that I can easily plugin modules as my clients need them - ie. Ecommerce system, blog, forum etc. I can create basic apps in a matter of a few hours. It is written with PHP5 (utilising zend framework). I think that for me the investment in time building an inhouse solution has been really worth it. Cheers Adam On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 3:05 PM, Sarah Simmonds [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi WSGers, We're currently looking to move all of our websites to a single Content Management System. As part of the CMS evaluation process we're interested in finding out what's currently in use out there. So my question is three fold: 1) What CMS system do you use to manage multiple websites? 2) How well has your CMS held up to expectations? Does it handle scaling, was it easy to learn, what were the drawbacks (if any)? 3) Does your CMS solution get in the way of producing elegant, standards compliant websites? Is there special considerations for standards and accessibility built into your CMS? There's lots of solutions out there, but unfortunately for many it's not a simple apples-to-apples comparison. Cheers, Sarah -- -- Sarah Simmonds - Melbourne IT Web Developer Member of the Web Standards Group Member of the Web Industry Professionals Association Graduate Computer Scientist, RMIT - *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- - http://myfitness.ning.com A community of people that care about their health and fitness Free fitness videos, recipes, blogs, photos etc. -- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Richard Johnson == Mobile: +44 (0) 7929 625 937 Landline: +44 (0) 207 183 8877 Web: www.totallyrich.com E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- -- Sarah Simmonds - Melbourne IT Web Developer Member of the Web Standards Group Member of the Web Industry Professionals Association Graduate Computer Scientist, RMIT - *** List
Re: [WSG] Standards compliant CMS?
Hello, Take a look at Drupal: http://drupal.org It's powerfull, it's flexible and have a lot of coll stuff and tries to follow web standards... Have a nice day! @:D Luiz Gustavo Aleagi Nunes - Nosce te ipsum - http://sapiensdc.com.br On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 10:00 PM, Sarah Simmonds [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Richard, Thanks for your suggestion, MySource Matrix is already on our list of solutions to evaluate. I didn't know Squiz has an office in Melbourne though! Along with solid community support we're also looking for a solution which can supply commercial support should we need it, and MySource Matrix certainly fits the bill. I'll keep your contact in mind. Thanks again! Cheers, Sarah On 3/13/08, Richard Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Sarah, I have worked with Squiz's cms for over 3 years now. They develop an Open Source content management system called MySource Matrix. I would seriously recommend having a free demonstration (they can to it online via screen sharing) or they have an office in Melbourne. More information about the CMS here: http://matrix.squiz.net The company Squiz is essentially a professional services company that offers services around the MySource Matrix product. My contact there is Lee Bollom ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) 1300 130 661 he's a nice guy, feel free to give him a call... I hope that helps. Good luck, Rich On 13/03/2008, Adam Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have developed my own cms system - it does not limit designs at all - let your designer go wild. It is very easy to use for the end user. 100% standards compliant (unless the person that creates the sites templates does not know what they are doing). I found the problem with most solutions is that they are bloatware - ie way to many features with no real benefits. The way my system works is that I can easily plugin modules as my clients need them - ie. Ecommerce system, blog, forum etc. I can create basic apps in a matter of a few hours. It is written with PHP5 (utilising zend framework). I think that for me the investment in time building an inhouse solution has been really worth it. Cheers Adam On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 3:05 PM, Sarah Simmonds [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi WSGers, We're currently looking to move all of our websites to a single Content Management System. As part of the CMS evaluation process we're interested in finding out what's currently in use out there. So my question is three fold: 1) What CMS system do you use to manage multiple websites? 2) How well has your CMS held up to expectations? Does it handle scaling, was it easy to learn, what were the drawbacks (if any)? 3) Does your CMS solution get in the way of producing elegant, standards compliant websites? Is there special considerations for standards and accessibility built into your CMS? There's lots of solutions out there, but unfortunately for many it's not a simple apples-to-apples comparison. Cheers, Sarah -- -- Sarah Simmonds - Melbourne IT Web Developer Member of the Web Standards Group Member of the Web Industry Professionals Association Graduate Computer Scientist, RMIT - *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- - http://myfitness.ning.com A community of people that care about their health and fitness Free fitness videos, recipes, blogs, photos etc. -- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Richard Johnson == Mobile: +44 (0) 7929 625 937 Landline: +44 (0) 207 183 8877 Web: www.totallyrich.com E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] == *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [WSG] Standards compliant CMS?
With respect, last time I looked, the WSG-CMS list was over there From the Guidelines: The mail list does not cover: * Non-Web Standards related issues and support * Discussion of server-side scripting beyond that directly involved with Web Standards * Discussion of content management/web publishing system issues beyond those directly involved with Web Standards (there is a CMS list for that purpose, Log in and go to Edit your login details and mail list subscriptions and set your preferences to Full CMS list or CMS list in digest mode) * Detailed software support such as using a browser, installing a server, installing any tools etc. * Product and service advertisements of a purely commercial nature * Employment opportunities http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Not that I'm decrying the questions but we have a resource specifically for CMS discussion so let's use it Cheers mark *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Standards compliant CMS?
Aleagi: Yep, we're looking at Drupal too. Michael: Thanks for pointing that out, I didn't know we had a list specifically for CMS's. I'll direct my query there :) Cheers, Sarah On 3/14/08, Mark Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: With respect, last time I looked, the WSG-CMS list was over there From the Guidelines: The mail list does not cover: * Non-Web Standards related issues and support * Discussion of server-side scripting beyond that directly involved with Web Standards * Discussion of content management/web publishing system issues beyond those directly involved with Web Standards (there is a CMS list for that purpose, Log in and go to Edit your login details and mail list subscriptions and set your preferences to Full CMS list or CMS list in digest mode) * Detailed software support such as using a browser, installing a server, installing any tools etc. * Product and service advertisements of a purely commercial nature * Employment opportunities http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Not that I'm decrying the questions but we have a resource specifically for CMS discussion so let's use it Cheers mark *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- -- Sarah Simmonds - Melbourne IT Web Developer Member of the Web Standards Group Member of the Web Industry Professionals Association Graduate Computer Scientist, RMIT - *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Standards compliant CMS?
Some excellent OpenSource CMS systems that I have had the pleasure of working with for real production work in various client environments include: 1. Joomla 2. XOOPS 3. WordPress 4. PhpNuke 5. PostNuke 6. TextPattern Joomla is currently my favorite for clients with broad needs -- say, bbs, doc management systems, stock quotes, scheduling apps, booking apps, et cetera -- or very industry specific needs such as an auto sales site joomla has it pretty much as there are over 2,700 different modules that easily plug-in to the base framework to do anything. Also, most if not all of these CMSes are skinable with the option of even allowing users to select their own custom skins in their log-in profiles. For a simple yet elegant blog site, WordPress is a good match. All of these are mature projects and each is worth gaining some knowledge of if just to know how very sophisticated these frameworks have become and how useful. Most frontends in these projects may be modified with just acgiod grasp of CSS while others require some good coding experience. As always, YMMV. -=KuRt=- Kurt Lovelace MindRoot.Com On Mar 13, 2008, at 8:16 PM, aleagi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello, Take a look at Drupal: http://drupal.org It's powerfull, it's flexible and have a lot of coll stuff and tries to follow web standards... Have a nice day! @:D Luiz Gustavo Aleagi Nunes - Nosce te ipsum - http://sapiensdc.com.br On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 10:00 PM, Sarah Simmonds [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Richard, Thanks for your suggestion, MySource Matrix is already on our list of solutions to evaluate. I didn't know Squiz has an office in Melbourne though! Along with solid community support we're also looking for a solution which can supply commercial support should we need it, and MySource Matrix certainly fits the bill. I'll keep your contact in mind. Thanks again! Cheers, Sarah On 3/13/08, Richard Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Sarah, I have worked with Squiz's cms for over 3 years now. They develop an Open Source content management system called MySource Matrix. I would seriously recommend having a free demonstration (they can to it online via screen sharing) or they have an office in Melbourne. More information about the CMS here: http://matrix.squiz.net The company Squiz is essentially a professional services company that offers services around the MySource Matrix product. My contact there is Lee Bollom ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) 1300 130 661 he's a nice guy, feel free to give him a call... I hope that helps. Good luck, Rich On 13/03/2008, Adam Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have developed my own cms system - it does not limit designs at all - let your designer go wild. It is very easy to use for the end user. 100% standards compliant (unless the person that creates the sites templates does not know what they are doing). I found the problem with most solutions is that they are bloatware - ie way to many features with no real benefits. The way my system works is that I can easily plugin modules as my clients need them - ie. Ecommerce system, blog, forum etc. I can create basic apps in a matter of a few hours. It is written with PHP5 (utilising zend framework). I think that for me the investment in time building an inhouse solution has been really worth it. Cheers Adam On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 3:05 PM, Sarah Simmonds [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi WSGers, We're currently looking to move all of our websites to a single Content Management System. As part of the CMS evaluation process we're interested in finding out what's currently in use out there. So my question is three fold: 1) What CMS system do you use to manage multiple websites? 2) How well has your CMS held up to expectations? Does it handle scaling, was it easy to learn, what were the drawbacks (if any)? 3) Does your CMS solution get in the way of producing elegant, standards compliant websites? Is there special considerations for standards and accessibility built into your CMS? There's lots of solutions out there, but unfortunately for many it's not a simple apples-to-apples comparison. Cheers, Sarah -- -- Sarah Simmonds --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- Melbourne IT Web Developer Member of the Web Standards Group Member of the Web Industry Professionals Association Graduate Computer Scientist, RMIT --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** --
Re: [WSG] Standards compliant CMS? [OT]
Sarah Simmonds wrote: Michael: Thanks for pointing that out, I didn't know we had a list specifically for CMS's. I'll direct my query there :) Cheers, Sarah On 3/14/08, Mark Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: With respect, last time I looked, the WSG-CMS list was over there Y'know, I can sort of understand people mis-hearing Mark as Mike on the phone or in a meeting (I get that a lot), but how do you mis-read mark as Michael?!? Oh, well... MARK *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Standards compliant CMS?
Hi WSGers, We're currently looking to move all of our websites to a single Content Management System. As part of the CMS evaluation process we're interested in finding out what's currently in use out there. So my question is three fold: 1) What CMS system do you use to manage multiple websites? 2) How well has your CMS held up to expectations? Does it handle scaling, was it easy to learn, what were the drawbacks (if any)? 3) Does your CMS solution get in the way of producing elegant, standards compliant websites? Is there special considerations for standards and accessibility built into your CMS? There's lots of solutions out there, but unfortunately for many it's not a simple apples-to-apples comparison. Cheers, Sarah -- -- Sarah Simmonds - Melbourne IT Web Developer Member of the Web Standards Group Member of the Web Industry Professionals Association Graduate Computer Scientist, RMIT - *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Standards compliant CMS?
I have developed my own cms system - it does not limit designs at all - let your designer go wild. It is very easy to use for the end user. 100% standards compliant (unless the person that creates the sites templates does not know what they are doing). I found the problem with most solutions is that they are bloatware - ie way to many features with no real benefits. The way my system works is that I can easily plugin modules as my clients need them - ie. Ecommerce system, blog, forum etc. I can create basic apps in a matter of a few hours. It is written with PHP5 (utilising zend framework). I think that for me the investment in time building an inhouse solution has been really worth it. Cheers Adam On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 3:05 PM, Sarah Simmonds [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi WSGers, We're currently looking to move all of our websites to a single Content Management System. As part of the CMS evaluation process we're interested in finding out what's currently in use out there. So my question is three fold: 1) What CMS system do you use to manage multiple websites? 2) How well has your CMS held up to expectations? Does it handle scaling, was it easy to learn, what were the drawbacks (if any)? 3) Does your CMS solution get in the way of producing elegant, standards compliant websites? Is there special considerations for standards and accessibility built into your CMS? There's lots of solutions out there, but unfortunately for many it's not a simple apples-to-apples comparison. Cheers, Sarah -- -- Sarah Simmonds - Melbourne IT Web Developer Member of the Web Standards Group Member of the Web Industry Professionals Association Graduate Computer Scientist, RMIT - *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- - http://myfitness.ning.com A community of people that care about their health and fitness Free fitness videos, recipes, blogs, photos etc. -- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] standards-compliant designers and shoddy work poor QA
Every user smart enough to know there are non IE browsers are smart enough to know sometimes you have to switch back to IE to make the website work. Now this is not true I got caught out this weekend discovering that I needed to use IE for a media program that I assumed was just not connecting for some reason. Maybe I should have known better, but it still took a 20 minute call after about 30 minutes of failed connection attempts for me to get to the root of the problem - that I was using firefox. I'm a fairly clued up full-time web designer, and as I said I probably should have known better, but there are plenty of people who wouldn't know out there. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] standards-compliant designers and shoddy work poor QA
On Jan 13, 2008 5:34 AM, Steve Olive [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry to spoil your fun Michael, but 100% of Apple Mac OS X 10.4 or better don't have IE installed at all. There are also 100% of Linux users who don't have IE installed by default. Nokia, Motorola, etc don't have IE installed on mobile devices. The Asus EeePC, the hottest selling bit of technology at the moment, does not have IE installed. IE can't be installed unless the custom-built default OS is replaced by Windows XP, which is not a simple process and unlikely to be be attempted by regular users. Can't seem to find IE installed on my iPhone, either... -- - Matthew *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] standards-compliant designers and shoddy work poor QA
Thank you for your sanity check steve! Joe On Jan 13 2008, at 05:34, Steve Olive wrote: On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 12:31:45 pm Michael Horowitz wrote: The answer is very simple. 100% of potential users of a website have IE on their computer. Michael Horowitz Your Computer Consultant http://yourcomputerconsultant.com 561-394-9079 Sorry to spoil your fun Michael, but 100% of Apple Mac OS X 10.4 or better don't have IE installed at all. There are also 100% of Linux users who don't have IE installed by default. Nokia, Motorola, etc don't have IE installed on mobile devices. The Asus EeePC, the hottest selling bit of technology at the moment, does not have IE installed. IE can't be installed unless the custom-built default OS is replaced by Windows XP, which is not a simple process and unlikely to be be attempted by regular users. Cross platform compatibility, with fluid designs, is becoming even more of a requirement as people start to use non-Microsoft products. -- Regards, Steve Bathurst Computer Solutions URL: www.bathurstcomputers.com.au e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mobile: 0407 224 251 _ ... (0) ... / / \ .. / / . ) .. V_/_ Linux Powered! Registered Linux User #355382 Registered Ubuntu User #19586 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] standards-compliant designers and shoddy work poor QA
Michael, get real You are an intelligent person ad saying something obviously inflammatory is very ignorant. Go to websidestory, searchenginewatch or perhaps look at your own Analytics stats and you will see that the statement 100% of potential users of a website have IE on their computers is just wrong. Just wrong. Stats for many of my sites, that appal to a wide commercial audience has IE at 80% or less. The rest of what you say is sensible and intelligently put, but please read your comms before sending hem as you do need a reality check on occasion. joe On Jan 13 2008, at 01:31, Michael Horowitz wrote: The answer is very simple. 100% of potential users of a website have IE on their computer. Every user smart enough to know there are non IE browsers are smart enough to know sometimes you have to switch back to IE to make the website work. The question becomes from a business perspective is the additional funds needed to train their developers to code in a compliants standard way, hire a proper qa department etc worth it. I've seen worse issues. Had someone ask me to review their new website and the first problem I found is you can't submit their contact form because the javascript is looking for a field that isn't there. Obvsiously the web design firm they hired dropped in a javascript for to check fields and was so incompetent they didn't customize it for this customer. The customer on the other hand didn't bother to check if their form submitted or go through it before paying them. Then there is the website I went to where you had to pay to read the authors short stories. Or you could enter user id test password test and enter the password protected site and read all the stories for free. Great web design firm he hired. QA has always been the area most software companies fail on. The QA guy is the mean person who tells you you screwed up. The last time I worked for someone they had a policy not to release a new version of their software when it had outstanding show stopper issues. So the CIO solved the problem by ordering QA to downgrade Show Stopper issues to a lower category of problem so he could send out the next release and sell more software to customers. Solving the actual problem was beyond them of course but if you downgraded it he solved the issue. I was not popular for suggesting this was not a good QA practice. But heck I was just the implementation specialist who had to deal with the customer when the software didn't work as promised. Shoddy work is nothing new. It will end when it impacts customers to the point it costs people business. Michael Horowitz Your Computer Consultant http://yourcomputerconsultant.com 561-394-9079 Viable Design wrote: There is blame to go around, for sure. I had an accessibility issue just this morning, while trying to find out about filing an insurance claim on my husband's car (which someone ran into in the middle of the night ... and took off). In Firefox, my browser of choice, the text on the page I needed was overlapping, and many of the links were not clickable. I switched to IE, and the page was totally fine; everything was in perfect working order. I couldn't help but check the source code, and of course, it was designed using tables. There were 187 errors, according to the W3C validation service. I e-mailed the company and received a quick reply that they had recently discovered an error that was preventing a small number of customers from accessing their claim information. Pretty generic, as expected. The company is customer-service based, according to its policies and my experience, so why would the powers that be within it not choose to make its Web site accessible to all? It's not like they don't have the money to make it happen. I propose that most people would choose not to inform them of the difficulties they have in the first place. It reminds me of the days (long ago!) when I was a waitress. Most of the customers who had a bad experience due to the food or the service (from other waitresses, of course!) wouldn't complain or explain; they'd merely pay their bills and leave, never to return, intent on informing everyone they knew about that awful restaurant. And then I think about how many times I personally have chosen to just let bad experiences go in fast-food restaurants, convenience stores, gas stations. The girl who jerked my money out of my hand with a scowl on her face and no thank-you. The guy who took five minutes to wait on me because he was too busy on his cell phone. I have gone to the manager sometimes, but most of the time, I just consider it too much hassle and let it go. The same is surely true of Internet experiences, I propose, at an exponentially greater rate of occurrence. The next page is just a click away. If it's a page that must be accessed,
Re: [WSG] standards-compliant designers
There is blame to go around, for sure. I had an accessibility issue just this morning, while trying to find out about filing an insurance claim on my husband's car (which someone ran into in the middle of the night ... and took off). In Firefox, my browser of choice, the text on the page I needed was overlapping, and many of the links were not clickable. I switched to IE, and the page was totally fine; everything was in perfect working order. I couldn't help but check the source code, and of course, it was designed using tables. There were 187 errors, according to the W3C validation service. I e-mailed the company and received a quick reply that they had recently discovered an error that was preventing a small number of customers from accessing their claim information. Pretty generic, as expected. The company is customer-service based, according to its policies and my experience, so why would the powers that be within it not choose to make its Web site accessible to all? It's not like they don't have the money to make it happen. I propose that most people would choose not to inform them of the difficulties they have in the first place. It reminds me of the days (long ago!) when I was a waitress. Most of the customers who had a bad experience due to the food or the service (from other waitresses, of course!) wouldn't complain or explain; they'd merely pay their bills and leave, never to return, intent on informing everyone they knew about that awful restaurant. And then I think about how many times I personally have chosen to just let bad experiences go in fast-food restaurants, convenience stores, gas stations. The girl who jerked my money out of my hand with a scowl on her face and no thank-you. The guy who took five minutes to wait on me because he was too busy on his cell phone. I have gone to the manager sometimes, but most of the time, I just consider it too much hassle and let it go. The same is surely true of Internet experiences, I propose, at an exponentially greater rate of occurrence. The next page is just a click away. If it's a page that must be accessed, however, as in my insurance experience this morning, it's a different story, of course. But most of the time, I personally simply leave the site and make a note of what not to do. I'm self-taught. I sorted through HTML as a sort of grief therapy when I'd lost my baby (and almost gone with him) in 1999 and was out of work for months. I began learning about CSS more than three years ago and only learned about accessibility/Web standards within the last couple of years. But I'm diligently learning as much as I can (with three kids and a full-time teaching job that invariably comes home with me most days...). I'm going to make it my personal goal to begin contacting the people who make sites that aren't accessible to let them know in what way I had difficulty using their site. Not in a lofty, condescending way, but in a I thought you may want to know way. Maybe they won't care. Maybe they'll be offended. Maybe they won't get it at all. Maybe it won't do any good. But maybe it will. Jo Hawke http://www.viabledesign.com On Jan 9, 2008 8:59 PM, Matthew Barben [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I tend to agree with Mark. IT guys in my experience tend not to be 'joiners' you work in a corporate IT department and you will quickly realise that people use terms like 'Crypt' and 'Beige' I have worked from both sides of the fence as both an indepentant but also as the main web guy within a large organisation. Yes there are situations where we have had to use external vendors to design websites purely because they have to resources to deliver quickly...and I can see how these agencies can produce very poor code and have the business owner say 'yes'. But there are also organisations where they will impose a set of design guidelines upon these firms and really put the pressure on them to deliver (especially is industries where you are an essential service and need to deliver to a wide audience of both abled and disabled people). Does it make the firm a bunch of non-compliant designers...perhaps. But I say for every poorly design website, there is someone who says 'Yes that is what I want' or 'that'll do'. Steve Green wrote: Of course I made up that 1% figure but I don't suppose it's far out. Just look at the phenomenal number of crap websites out there. There are something like 100,000 people offering web design services in the UK (10,000 in London alone) yet GAWDS membership (which is global) is only around 500 and I believe WSG membership is similar. Don't confuse volume with quantity. Lots of people do. There are a lot of crap sites out there but that doesn't mean there's 1 crap designer for every crap site. A lot of the time, the crapness has to do with the business manager who over-rules any technical considerations because he wants animated pictures of little ponies flying round the product. 1
Re: [WSG] standards-compliant designers and shoddy work poor QA
The answer is very simple. 100% of potential users of a website have IE on their computer. Every user smart enough to know there are non IE browsers are smart enough to know sometimes you have to switch back to IE to make the website work. The question becomes from a business perspective is the additional funds needed to train their developers to code in a compliants standard way, hire a proper qa department etc worth it. I've seen worse issues. Had someone ask me to review their new website and the first problem I found is you can't submit their contact form because the javascript is looking for a field that isn't there. Obvsiously the web design firm they hired dropped in a javascript for to check fields and was so incompetent they didn't customize it for this customer. The customer on the other hand didn't bother to check if their form submitted or go through it before paying them. Then there is the website I went to where you had to pay to read the authors short stories. Or you could enter user id test password test and enter the password protected site and read all the stories for free. Great web design firm he hired. QA has always been the area most software companies fail on. The QA guy is the mean person who tells you you screwed up. The last time I worked for someone they had a policy not to release a new version of their software when it had outstanding show stopper issues. So the CIO solved the problem by ordering QA to downgrade Show Stopper issues to a lower category of problem so he could send out the next release and sell more software to customers. Solving the actual problem was beyond them of course but if you downgraded it he solved the issue. I was not popular for suggesting this was not a good QA practice. But heck I was just the implementation specialist who had to deal with the customer when the software didn't work as promised. Shoddy work is nothing new. It will end when it impacts customers to the point it costs people business. Michael Horowitz Your Computer Consultant http://yourcomputerconsultant.com 561-394-9079 Viable Design wrote: There is blame to go around, for sure. I had an accessibility issue just this morning, while trying to find out about filing an insurance claim on my husband's car (which someone ran into in the middle of the night ... and took off). In Firefox, my browser of choice, the text on the page I needed was overlapping, and many of the links were not clickable. I switched to IE, and the page was totally fine; everything was in perfect working order. I couldn't help but check the source code, and of course, it was designed using tables. There were 187 errors, according to the W3C validation service. I e-mailed the company and received a quick reply that they had recently discovered an error that was preventing a small number of customers from accessing their claim information. Pretty generic, as expected. The company is customer-service based, according to its policies and my experience, so why would the powers that be within it not choose to make its Web site accessible to all? It's not like they don't have the money to make it happen. I propose that most people would choose not to inform them of the difficulties they have in the first place. It reminds me of the days (long ago!) when I was a waitress. Most of the customers who had a bad experience due to the food or the service (from other waitresses, of course!) wouldn't complain or explain; they'd merely pay their bills and leave, never to return, intent on informing everyone they knew about that awful restaurant. And then I think about how many times I personally have chosen to just let bad experiences go in fast-food restaurants, convenience stores, gas stations. The girl who jerked my money out of my hand with a scowl on her face and no thank-you. The guy who took five minutes to wait on me because he was too busy on his cell phone. I have gone to the manager sometimes, but most of the time, I just consider it too much hassle and let it go. The same is surely true of Internet experiences, I propose, at an exponentially greater rate of occurrence. The next page is just a click away. If it's a page that must be accessed, however, as in my insurance experience this morning, it's a different story, of course. But most of the time, I personally simply leave the site and make a note of what not to do. I'm self-taught. I sorted through HTML as a sort of grief therapy when I'd lost my baby (and almost gone with him) in 1999 and was out of work for months. I began learning about CSS more than three years ago and only learned about accessibility/Web standards within the last couple of years. But I'm diligently learning as much as I can (with three kids and a full-time teaching job that invariably comes home with me most days...). I'm going to make it my personal goal to begin contacting the people who
Re: [WSG] standards-compliant designers and shoddy work poor QA
On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 12:31:45 pm Michael Horowitz wrote: The answer is very simple. 100% of potential users of a website have IE on their computer. Michael Horowitz Your Computer Consultant http://yourcomputerconsultant.com 561-394-9079 Sorry to spoil your fun Michael, but 100% of Apple Mac OS X 10.4 or better don't have IE installed at all. There are also 100% of Linux users who don't have IE installed by default. Nokia, Motorola, etc don't have IE installed on mobile devices. The Asus EeePC, the hottest selling bit of technology at the moment, does not have IE installed. IE can't be installed unless the custom-built default OS is replaced by Windows XP, which is not a simple process and unlikely to be be attempted by regular users. Cross platform compatibility, with fluid designs, is becoming even more of a requirement as people start to use non-Microsoft products. -- Regards, Steve Bathurst Computer Solutions URL: www.bathurstcomputers.com.au e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mobile: 0407 224 251 _ ... (0) ... / / \ .. / / . ) .. V_/_ Linux Powered! Registered Linux User #355382 Registered Ubuntu User #19586 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] standards-compliant designers
That's a great idea, I think i'll do that too. it's really annoying that people disregard the fact that there are other browsers out there, and make their site solely for ie6 and they don't even think about validating it... But your idea is good, to tell them about it will hopefully bring a change, especially if it gets a following and more people do it. On Jan 12, 2008 3:34 PM, Viable Design [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There is blame to go around, for sure. I had an accessibility issue just this morning, while trying to find out about filing an insurance claim on my husband's car (which someone ran into in the middle of the night ... and took off). In Firefox, my browser of choice, the text on the page I needed was overlapping, and many of the links were not clickable. I switched to IE, and the page was totally fine; everything was in perfect working order. I couldn't help but check the source code, and of course, it was designed using tables. There were 187 errors, according to the W3C validation service. I e-mailed the company and received a quick reply that they had recently discovered an error that was preventing a small number of customers from accessing their claim information. Pretty generic, as expected. The company is customer-service based, according to its policies and my experience, so why would the powers that be within it not choose to make its Web site accessible to all? It's not like they don't have the money to make it happen. I propose that most people would choose not to inform them of the difficulties they have in the first place. It reminds me of the days (long ago!) when I was a waitress. Most of the customers who had a bad experience due to the food or the service (from other waitresses, of course!) wouldn't complain or explain; they'd merely pay their bills and leave, never to return, intent on informing everyone they knew about that awful restaurant. And then I think about how many times I personally have chosen to just let bad experiences go in fast-food restaurants, convenience stores, gas stations. The girl who jerked my money out of my hand with a scowl on her face and no thank-you. The guy who took five minutes to wait on me because he was too busy on his cell phone. I have gone to the manager sometimes, but most of the time, I just consider it too much hassle and let it go. The same is surely true of Internet experiences, I propose, at an exponentially greater rate of occurrence. The next page is just a click away. If it's a page that must be accessed, however, as in my insurance experience this morning, it's a different story, of course. But most of the time, I personally simply leave the site and make a note of what not to do. I'm self-taught. I sorted through HTML as a sort of grief therapy when I'd lost my baby (and almost gone with him) in 1999 and was out of work for months. I began learning about CSS more than three years ago and only learned about accessibility/Web standards within the last couple of years. But I'm diligently learning as much as I can (with three kids and a full-time teaching job that invariably comes home with me most days...). I'm going to make it my personal goal to begin contacting the people who make sites that aren't accessible to let them know in what way I had difficulty using their site. Not in a lofty, condescending way, but in a I thought you may want to know way. Maybe they won't care. Maybe they'll be offended. Maybe they won't get it at all. Maybe it won't do any good. But maybe it will. Jo Hawke http://www.viabledesign.com On Jan 9, 2008 8:59 PM, Matthew Barben [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I tend to agree with Mark. IT guys in my experience tend not to be 'joiners' you work in a corporate IT department and you will quickly realise that people use terms like 'Crypt' and 'Beige' I have worked from both sides of the fence as both an indepentant but also as the main web guy within a large organisation. Yes there are situations where we have had to use external vendors to design websites purely because they have to resources to deliver quickly...and I can see how these agencies can produce very poor code and have the business owner say 'yes'. But there are also organisations where they will impose a set of design guidelines upon these firms and really put the pressure on them to deliver (especially is industries where you are an essential service and need to deliver to a wide audience of both abled and disabled people). Does it make the firm a bunch of non-compliant designers...perhaps. But I say for every poorly design website, there is someone who says 'Yes that is what I want' or 'that'll do'. Steve Green wrote: Of course I made up that 1% figure but I don't suppose it's far out. Just look at the phenomenal number of crap websites out there. There are something like 100,000 people offering web design services in
[WSG] standards-compliant designers
On Jan 9, 2008, at 12:58 AM, Steve Green wrote: standards-compliant designers represent perhaps 1% of the industry is this really the figure - any sources? very depressing - and doesn't help those in a similar position to mine - The Florida Library Association (of which our director was president at the time) drew up guidelines calling for standards/508 compliant library web sites. But when I put forward the suggestion that our site should adhere to the guidelines: Oh, I think people make too much of accessibility... La lutte continue! Andrew http://www.andrewmaben.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a well designed user interface, the user should not need instructions. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] standards-compliant designers
On Jan 9, 2008 2:01 PM, Andrew Maben [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: standards-compliant designers represent perhaps 1% of the industry is this really the figure - any sources? It's impossible to say, unless you draw a line in the sand and define what qualifies someone to call themselves a 'web designer'. Does it have to be your job title? Your business? Do you have to be paid for it? Our industry includes everyone from Zeldman to the marketing department struggling with a CMS to back-bedroom solo web agencies to the neighbour's kid with a copy of FrontPage. -- - Matthew *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] standards-compliant designers
Of course I made up that 1% figure but I don't suppose it's far out. Just look at the phenomenal number of crap websites out there. There are something like 100,000 people offering web design services in the UK (10,000 in London alone) yet GAWDS membership (which is global) is only around 500 and I believe WSG membership is similar. Those who take standards-compliant design seriously tend to be individuals producing small volumes of work, but the large volumes are typically generated by organisations that neither know nor care about standards-compliance. They are invariably tied to enterprise-scale CMSs that guarantee the code will be horrible. Likewise, ASP.Net implementations can be made to be standards-compliant but it takes a huge amount of work so most organisations just use it as it comes out of the box. Steve _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matthew Pennell Sent: 09 January 2008 14:12 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] standards-compliant designers On Jan 9, 2008 2:01 PM, Andrew Maben [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: standards-compliant designers represent perhaps 1% of the industry is this really the figure - any sources? It's impossible to say, unless you draw a line in the sand and define what qualifies someone to call themselves a 'web designer'. Does it have to be your job title? Your business? Do you have to be paid for it? Our industry includes everyone from Zeldman to the marketing department struggling with a CMS to back-bedroom solo web agencies to the neighbour's kid with a copy of FrontPage. -- - Matthew *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] standards-compliant designers
Steve Green wrote: Of course I made up that 1% figure but I don't suppose it's far out. Just look at the phenomenal number of crap websites out there. There are something like 100,000 people offering web design services in the UK (10,000 in London alone) yet GAWDS membership (which is global) is only around 500 and I believe WSG membership is similar. Don't confuse volume with quantity. Lots of people do. There are a lot of crap sites out there but that doesn't mean there's 1 crap designer for every crap site. A lot of the time, the crapness has to do with the business manager who over-rules any technical considerations because he wants animated pictures of little ponies flying round the product. 1 crap designer can turn out many, many crap sites. The damage done by Sieglal's Designing Killer Websites (1st edition - he recanted later) was huge. Back when I was starting, I bought it and used it as a bible of what not to do, but many used it as a how-to guide, and some of those sites still exist. Also add in the spectrum of experience from people creating websites. Some are just learning, some are doing it on the side for their schools or offices - these are not professional web designers and you shouldn't include them in your 'spurious assessment' ;-) but they are the key people to reach out to, if I could figure out how to do it. I started building web in 1996, when bandwidth was an issue (9600 was common here in New Zealand and 56K was only just arriving) and the techniques I learned were aimed at optimizing for speed and volume. Funnily enough the same principles apply to accessibility but I wasn't learning accessibility per se. I didn't join any groups although there were a few around, but I did get on several mailing lists (some of which I'm still on). Some people just aren't joiners. And I don't see participation in the WSG as joining exactly, as there are no dues, no elections and no formality - it's just a place to come and talk. There may be lots of lone coders out there, religiously adhering to standards we don't know and I can't think of a way to find out for sure. Let's make our talking places more well known and inviting, rather than the fearsome arena that many fora become, with the resident experts snarling at the clueless. (Not saying that about the WSG as it is usually quite civilized) Which is all to say don't make up statistics that others will take as gospel as they'll come back and bit us all in the arse. Those who take standards-compliant design seriously tend to be individuals producing small volumes of work, I call unproven assumption - you may be right but we just don't know. but the large volumes are typically generated by organisations that neither know nor care about standards-compliance. They are invariably tied to enterprise-scale CMSs that guarantee the code will be horrible. Likewise, ASP.Net implementations can be made to be standards-compliant but it takes a huge amount of work so most organisations just use it as it comes out of the box. So the simple answer is 'focus on those manufacturers' - yes? Get THEM to change and you won't need to bemoan those chumps who use their stuff out of the box instead of hiring us bespoke designers at our outrageous rates. Curmudgeonly, Mark Harris *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] standards-compliant designers
Mark Harris wrote: 1 crap designer can turn out many, many crap sites. The damage done by Sieglal's Designing Killer Websites (1st edition - he recanted later) was huge. Back when I was starting, I bought it and used it as a bible of what not to do, but many used it as a how-to guide, and some of those sites still exist. I find this whole argument really interesting. :) See, I think the benefits of what Siegal and his book (and lots of other stuff around the same time) far outweigh the costs. And yes, I can understand why he recanted the book, and yes it was good that he did. But, remember, the web was even more in its infancy than it is now. No one knew it would become what it is today - the book was published a year before Google started for example! One of the huge huge factors is the growth of the web was how easy it was/is for people to create web pages. I agree entirely that content is the key thing on the web, but it was the ability to do cool things visually (and otherwise) they drew a lot of people into building websites in the early days. It was just plain fun (and magic even!). And Siegal was a big part of showing people what could be done, pushing boundaries, making people excited etc. I don't think we'd be where we are today without that huge burst of creativity. And I think a part of what caused that was people not knowing any better. And none of the above is an argument against not using web standards today! Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] standards-compliant designers
I tend to agree with Mark. IT guys in my experience tend not to be 'joiners' you work in a corporate IT department and you will quickly realise that people use terms like 'Crypt' and 'Beige' I have worked from both sides of the fence as both an indepentant but also as the main web guy within a large organisation. Yes there are situations where we have had to use external vendors to design websites purely because they have to resources to deliver quickly...and I can see how these agencies can produce very poor code and have the business owner say 'yes'. But there are also organisations where they will impose a set of design guidelines upon these firms and really put the pressure on them to deliver (especially is industries where you are an essential service and need to deliver to a wide audience of both abled and disabled people). Does it make the firm a bunch of non-compliant designers...perhaps. But I say for every poorly design website, there is someone who says 'Yes that is what I want' or 'that'll do'. Steve Green wrote: Of course I made up that 1% figure but I don't suppose it's far out. Just look at the phenomenal number of crap websites out there. There are something like 100,000 people offering web design services in the UK (10,000 in London alone) yet GAWDS membership (which is global) is only around 500 and I believe WSG membership is similar. Don't confuse volume with quantity. Lots of people do. There are a lot of crap sites out there but that doesn't mean there's 1 crap designer for every crap site. A lot of the time, the crapness has to do with the business manager who over-rules any technical considerations because he wants animated pictures of little ponies flying round the product. 1 crap designer can turn out many, many crap sites. The damage done by Sieglal's Designing Killer Websites (1st edition - he recanted later) was huge. Back when I was starting, I bought it and used it as a bible of what not to do, but many used it as a how-to guide, and some of those sites still exist. Also add in the spectrum of experience from people creating websites. Some are just learning, some are doing it on the side for their schools or offices - these are not professional web designers and you shouldn't include them in your 'spurious assessment' ;-) but they are the key people to reach out to, if I could figure out how to do it. I started building web in 1996, when bandwidth was an issue (9600 was common here in New Zealand and 56K was only just arriving) and the techniques I learned were aimed at optimizing for speed and volume. Funnily enough the same principles apply to accessibility but I wasn't learning accessibility per se. I didn't join any groups although there were a few around, but I did get on several mailing lists (some of which I'm still on). Some people just aren't joiners. And I don't see participation in the WSG as joining exactly, as there are no dues, no elections and no formality - it's just a place to come and talk. There may be lots of lone coders out there, religiously adhering to standards we don't know and I can't think of a way to find out for sure. Let's make our talking places more well known and inviting, rather than the fearsome arena that many fora become, with the resident experts snarling at the clueless. (Not saying that about the WSG as it is usually quite civilized) Which is all to say don't make up statistics that others will take as gospel as they'll come back and bit us all in the arse. Those who take standards-compliant design seriously tend to be individuals producing small volumes of work, I call unproven assumption - you may be right but we just don't know. but the large volumes are typically generated by organisations that neither know nor care about standards-compliance. They are invariably tied to enterprise-scale CMSs that guarantee the code will be horrible. Likewise, ASP.Net implementations can be made to be standards-compliant but it takes a huge amount of work so most organisations just use it as it comes out of the box. So the simple answer is 'focus on those manufacturers' - yes? Get THEM to change and you won't need to bemoan those chumps who use their stuff out of the box instead of hiring us bespoke designers at our outrageous rates. Curmudgeonly, Mark Harris *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Standards friendly 'page tagging' web stats
Patrick, reports based on server log files are considerably limiting. For example, visitors are generally identified by IP and Session ID. This doesn't tell me if the person is a repeat customer, or how often they frequent the website, and also provides more accurate filtering of non-human user agents (as UAs don't tend to render the HTML or executive the JS). yes ... but you also won't see any browsers that don't have javascript (such as most mobile phone browsers) so if you want to see EVERY browser that people might use to look at your site you will still need to get that information from the server logs. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Standards friendly 'page tagging' web stats
Hey all, I'm investigating improving our current method of reporting our web traffic - we currently use server logs only (with an annual community survey for good measure). I'm looking for a Javascript page-tagging solution, that is unobtrusive (keeping in line with our current progressive enhancement paradigm), standards compliant, reliable/error free (ie. Supported across multiple browsers). We've spent a considerable amount of time building a standards compliant, accessible website that degrades nicely on older browsers and less tech savvy clients, so I'm not keen on implementing a solution that's going to brain all of our hard work. Can anyone make any suggests... off-list if this isn't the right forum for this thread. Best Regards, Paul Hempsall Web Developer Lake Macquarie City Council Phone: (02) 4921-0713 Fax: (02) 4921-0566 Web: http://www.lakemac.com.au This information is intended for the addressee only. The use, copying or distribution of this message or any information it contains, by anyone other than the addressee is prohibited by the sender. Any views expressed in this communication are those of the individual sender, except where the sender specifically states them to be the views of Council. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Standards friendly 'page tagging' web stats
Have you looked at Google Analytics? On Mon, 27 Aug 2007 10:52:44 +1000, Paul Hempsall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey all, I'm investigating improving our current method of reporting our web traffic - we currently use server logs only (with an annual community survey for good measure). I'm looking for a Javascript page-tagging solution, that is unobtrusive (keeping in line with our current progressive enhancement paradigm), standards compliant, reliable/error free (ie. Supported across multiple browsers). We've spent a considerable amount of time building a standards compliant, accessible website that degrades nicely on older browsers and less tech savvy clients, so I'm not keen on implementing a solution that's going to brain all of our hard work. Can anyone make any suggests... off-list if this isn't the right forum for this thread. Best Regards, Paul Hempsall Web Developer Lake Macquarie City Council Phone: (02) 4921-0713 Fax: (02) 4921-0566 Web: http://www.lakemac.com.au This information is intended for the addressee only. The use, copying or distribution of this message or any information it contains, by anyone other than the addressee is prohibited by the sender. Any views expressed in this communication are those of the individual sender, except where the sender specifically states them to be the views of Council. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Tyssen Design www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Standards friendly 'page tagging' web stats
Try this: http://www.google.com/analytics/ Hope its good. Regards, Jason www.flexewebs.com On 8/27/07, Paul Hempsall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey all, I'm investigating improving our current method of reporting our web traffic - we currently use server logs only (with an annual community survey for good measure). I'm looking for a Javascript page-tagging solution, that is unobtrusive (keeping in line with our current progressive enhancement paradigm), standards compliant, reliable/error free (ie. Supported across multiple browsers). We've spent a considerable amount of time building a standards compliant, accessible website that degrades nicely on older browsers and less tech savvy clients, so I'm not keen on implementing a solution that's going to brain all of our hard work. Can anyone make any suggests... off-list if this isn't the right forum for this thread. Best Regards, Paul Hempsall Web Developer Lake Macquarie City Council Phone: (02) 4921-0713 Fax: (02) 4921-0566 Web: http://www.lakemac.com.au This information is intended for the addressee only. The use, copying or distribution of this message or any information it contains, by anyone other than the addressee is prohibited by the sender. Any views expressed in this communication are those of the individual sender, except where the sender specifically states them to be the views of Council. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Standards friendly 'page tagging' web stats
Paul Hempsall wrote: I'm investigating improving our current method of reporting our web traffic - we currently use server logs only (with an annual community survey for good measure). You haven't really defined your probem...what exactly is it that you're trying to improve? I'm assuming you're already running something like Analog or Awstats in the backend to prep your server logs...so what functionality are you missing that makes you want to move to a javascript solution? P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ Take it to the streets ... join the WaSP Street Team http://streetteam.webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Standards friendly 'page tagging' web stats
Paul, We use Google Analytics in-house and it is a good addition to log file analysis. 'Mint' is another tagging-based stats package that should be OK on a standards-based website http://haveamint.com/ You do get a lot more info on browsers and viewport size throygh the tagging stats approach. Also, Google tells you a lot about pathways through the website that most log-analysis stats packages would charge you a lot of money for. Cheers Paul Paul Minty Director mintleaf studio We design create stylish websites Post: Box 6 108 Flinders Street Melbourne VIC 3000 Level 2 108 Flinders Street Melbourne T. 03 9662 9344 F. 03 9662 9255 M. 0418 307 475 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.mintleafstudio.com.au -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Hempsall Sent: Monday, 27 August 2007 11:16 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Standards friendly 'page tagging' web stats I'm looking for a Javascript page-tagging solution, that is unobtrusive (keeping in line with our current progressive enhancement paradigm), standards compliant, reliable/error free (ie. Supported across multiple browsers). Paul Hempsall Web Developer *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Standards friendly 'page tagging' web stats
Thanks for the responses and suggestions. I haven't checked out Google Analytics yet, although it was on my list. In fact I'm heading down to Sydney in Sept for some training on it's use and how to best implement it. Patrick, reports based on server log files are considerably limiting. For example, visitors are generally identified by IP and Session ID. This doesn't tell me if the person is a repeat customer, or how often they frequent the website, and also provides more accurate filtering of non-human user agents (as UAs don't tend to render the HTML or executive the JS). The data collected is particularly useful for measuring the use of back and forward button usage, monitoring the effectiveness of campaigns, conversion rates, abandonment rates/locations, etc. Just wanted to make sure I didn't break the site by implementing this. Paul Hempsall Web Developer Lake Macquarie City Council Phone: (02) 4921-0713 Fax: (02) 4921-0566 Web: http://www.lakemac.com.au This information is intended for the addressee only. The use, copying or distribution of this message or any information it contains, by anyone other than the addressee is prohibited by the sender. Any views expressed in this communication are those of the individual sender, except where the sender specifically states them to be the views of Council. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Standards friendly 'page tagging' web stats
Hi Paul, I'm heading down to Sydney in Sept for some training on it's use and how to best implement it. Please tell me your not paying for that. About Google Analytics http://www.google.com/support/googleanalytics/bin/topic.py?topic=10977 Installing the tracking code http://www.google.com/support/googleanalytics/bin/topic.py?topic=10976 How do I add tracking code to my website? http://www.google.com/support/googleanalytics/bin/answer.py?answer=55488topic=11126 Just wanted to make sure I didn't break the site by implementing this. You can implement the JS on a couple of test pages if you would like to test the result before including it in all your pages. Kind Regards, Kane [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 27/08/2007 03:07:35 PM: Thanks for the responses and suggestions. I haven't checked out Google Analytics yet, although it was on my list. In fact I'm heading down to Sydney in Sept for some training on it's use and how to best implement it. Patrick, reports based on server log files are considerably limiting. For example, visitors are generally identified by IP and Session ID. This doesn't tell me if the person is a repeat customer, or how often they frequent the website, and also provides more accurate filtering of non-human user agents (as UAs don't tend to render the HTML or executive the JS). The data collected is particularly useful for measuring the use of back and forward button usage, monitoring the effectiveness of campaigns, conversion rates, abandonment rates/locations, etc. Just wanted to make sure I didn't break the site by implementing this. Paul Hempsall Web Developer Lake Macquarie City Council Phone: (02) 4921-0713 Fax: (02) 4921-0566 Web: http://www.lakemac.com.au This information is intended for the addressee only. The use, copying or distribution of this message or any information it contains, by anyone other than the addressee is prohibited by the sender. Any views expressed in this communication are those of the individual sender, except where the sender specifically states them to be the views of Council. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Standards and Blogs
Hi; Does anyone have any views regarding the best blogging tool (server- side, not hosted) from a web-standards perspective? I'm looking at setting up a business blog at the moment and although I'm wading through 'Blog Design Solutions' by Andy Budd et al I'm still not certain which one to settle on -- Movable Type, Experession Engine and Wordpress all have their pros and cons, but I'd like the blog pages to be as standards- friendly as possible (I assume that they are never going to be completely so on account of the blog-specific template tags and such). If one has never gone down the blog route before it's all a bit daunting and techno-befuddling, so any advice is welcome. Many thanks as always. -- Rick Lecoat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Standards and Blogs
I've only used Expression Engine and Wordpress but they'll output whatever HTML you put into your templates so how standards-friendly is entirely up to the user and there is no limitations imposed by the CMS. On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 20:01:32 +1000, Rick Lecoat [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi; Does anyone have any views regarding the best blogging tool (server- side, not hosted) from a web-standards perspective? I'm looking at setting up a business blog at the moment and although I'm wading through 'Blog Design Solutions' by Andy Budd et al I'm still not certain which one to settle on -- Movable Type, Experession Engine and Wordpress all have their pros and cons, but I'd like the blog pages to be as standards- friendly as possible (I assume that they are never going to be completely so on account of the blog-specific template tags and such). If one has never gone down the blog route before it's all a bit daunting and techno-befuddling, so any advice is welcome. Many thanks as always. -- Tyssen Design www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Standards and Blogs
On 13/8/07 (11:57) John said: I've only used Expression Engine and Wordpress but they'll output whatever HTML you put into your templates so how standards-friendly is entirely up to the user and there is no limitations imposed by the CMS. That's good to know John, thanks. I was concerned that the blogging scripts might be churning out hideous (X)HTML that makes us all bleed from the ears. I was also originally working on the assumption that no blog page will validate on account of the template tags, but then it occurred to me that the tags get replaced with regular text in the actual served page, so there should be no problem. Is that correct? (As you can tell, I'm starting to get mildly out of my regular territory here...) -- Rick Lecoat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Standards and Blogs
Rick, Yes, you can make a Wordpress, Expression Engine, Textpattern, MovableType, etc. blog COMPLETELY validate. Example: http://www.christianmontoya.com/ You can even make a Wordpress blog (and probably the others) output valid HTML 4 instead of XHTML. Tutorial: http://www.christianmontoya.com/2006/02/13/serve-your-weblog-as-html-401/ -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Standards and Blogs
Most HTML tags get written into your template by you. There's only a few functions I can think of that output tags as well as a content and most of the time, it's perfectly valid HTML. On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 21:24:36 +1000, Rick Lecoat [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 13/8/07 (11:57) John said: I've only used Expression Engine and Wordpress but they'll output whatever HTML you put into your templates so how standards-friendly is entirely up to the user and there is no limitations imposed by the CMS. That's good to know John, thanks. I was concerned that the blogging scripts might be churning out hideous (X)HTML that makes us all bleed from the ears. I was also originally working on the assumption that no blog page will validate on account of the template tags, but then it occurred to me that the tags get replaced with regular text in the actual served page, so there should be no problem. Is that correct? (As you can tell, I'm starting to get mildly out of my regular territory here...) -- Tyssen Design www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Standards and Blogs
On 13/8/07 (13:01) Christian said:
You can even make a Wordpress blog (and probably the others) output
valid HTML 4 instead of XHTML. Tutorial:
http://www.christianmontoya.com/2006/02/13/serve-your-weblog-as-html-401/
That's a really useful tutorial Christian, thanks.
One question though: On your tutorial page, you appear to put some PHP
code above the doctype in order to remove any instance of self-closing
tags. Specifically:
That's all you need. The full header looks like this:
?php
function fix_code($buffer) {
return (str_replace( /, , $buffer));
}
ob_start(fix_code);
?
!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN
http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd;
html lang=en
Does this not throw Explorer into quirks mode? I was under the
impression that anything (other than whitespace, maybe) before the
doctype had this effect.
Is PHP code an exception to this rule? or am I way off base here?
--
Rick Lecoat
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Re: [WSG] Standards and Blogs
Rick, PHP shouldn't affect IE at all because it gets calculated on
the server, so by the time the page gets to the browser, it's 100%
HTML/XHTML/whatever - no PHP is seen on the client-side at all.
Cheers,
C
Caitlin Rowley, B. Mus. (Hons), Gr. Dip. Design
Composer, musicologist, web designer
http://www.minim-media.com/listen/
On 13 Aug 2007, at 15:16, Rick Lecoat wrote:
On 13/8/07 (13:01) Christian said:
You can even make a Wordpress blog (and probably the others) output
valid HTML 4 instead of XHTML. Tutorial:
http://www.christianmontoya.com/2006/02/13/serve-your-weblog-as-
html-401/
That's a really useful tutorial Christian, thanks.
One question though: On your tutorial page, you appear to put some PHP
code above the doctype in order to remove any instance of self-closing
tags. Specifically:
That's all you need. The full header looks like this:
?php
function fix_code($buffer) {
return (str_replace( /, , $buffer));
}
ob_start(fix_code);
?
!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN
http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd;
html lang=en
Does this not throw Explorer into quirks mode? I was under the
impression that anything (other than whitespace, maybe) before the
doctype had this effect.
Is PHP code an exception to this rule? or am I way off base here?
--
Rick Lecoat
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Re: [WSG] Standards and Blogs
... One question though: On your tutorial page, you appear to put some PHP code above the doctype in order to remove any instance of self-closing tags. Specifically: ... Does this not throw Explorer into quirks mode? I was under the impression that anything (other than whitespace, maybe) before the doctype had this effect. Is PHP code an exception to this rule? or am I way off base here? Yes, because to throw IE into quirks mode you have something in HTML before the doctype. PHP code is processed on the server and browser does not see it, only the output. So, if it does not output anything you will be fine. One should be careful, though and watch for newlines and whitespace. Regards, Rimantas -- http://rimantas.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Standards and Blogs
On 13/8/07 (15:27) minim said: Rick, PHP shouldn't affect IE at all because it gets calculated on the server, so by the time the page gets to the browser, it's 100% HTML/XHTML/whatever - no PHP is seen on the client-side at all. Cheers, C A ha. Good to know. Thanks. -- Rick Lecoat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] standards selling points
This is a discussion that continuously reappears on this list. I've been down this path myself and these days agree with those who say not to bother selling the standards to people. They really don't care. Sorry. I spent many meetings with clients trying to explain what standards are, and the only thing they are interested in are any tangible benefits. If you cannot focus on benefits, don't waste your time. In my experience: Clients do care about SEO, but don't care about screen readers. Clients do care that google can whip through clean code, butt don't care to know what tag soup is. Clients think that it interesting that javascript image buttons with javascript: in the url screw up search engines etc, but don't care for the technical explanation. Clients don't care that the 25 nested tables don't validate, but do care that it takes 5 times as long to make a minor change on that type of page. Clients think its cool when I press CTRL+SHIFT+S in firefox and remove the presentation layer to show them what the search engine sees, but they don't care to learn the difference between presentation, information and behavior. As a designer/developer you want to try and separate your self from your competition, especially if they do crappy work. A long speech aimed at educating the client is a nice thought but in practicality a waste of the client's time. Point being, we're not selling standards here. We're supposed to be selling quality websites that are well-coded and accessible to a variety of audiences. Following standards is simply the recommended way to do so. Save the education for a brochure to hand them if you insist on drilling the concept into their heads. Keep in mind I'm in America so I'm in an environment where REALLY no one cares. My competition all uses Frontpage, frames, javascript links, whole pages that are just jpgs with image maps, only use CSS to style scrollbars - its ridiculous! My 2 cents, *Joseph R. B. Taylor* Sites by Joe, LLC /Custom Web Design Development/ Phone: (609) 335-3076 www.sitesbyjoe.com http://www.sitesbyjoe.com Tony Crockford wrote: kevin mcmonagle wrote: Hello, This has been discussed before but i was wondering about new input. I've tendered on a big job and i will be up against a lot of competition. What are some web standards selling points that might get through to a completely uniformed, unsavy client. MACCAWS was ahead of its time and seems to have been forgotten, mores the pity, but it was set up specifically to help web designers in your position. There's a whole Kit of information here: http://www.maccaws.org/kit/ Making A Commercial Case for Adopting Web Standards | maccaws.org hth *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***begin:vcard fn:Joseph R. B. Taylor n:Taylor;Joseph org:Sites by Joe, LLC adr:;;408 Route 47 South;Cape May Court House;NJ;08210;USA email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED] tel;work:609-335-3076 tel;cell:609-335-3076 url:http://www.sitesbyjoe.com version:2.1 end:vcard
[WSG] standards selling points
Hello, This has been discussed before but i was wondering about new input. I've tendered on a big job and i will be up against a lot of competition. What are some web standards selling points that might get through to a completely uniformed, unsavy client. The job requires a cms, ill be using text pattern which I'm in the process of learning, because of this I dont know if ill be able to reach XHTML 1.0 Strict yet. I will just be building a standards compliant and accessible site-im not going to go to crazy with 14pt type. Also the client is a semi-state body-although there are no requirement here in Ireland for accessibility. -best kvnmcwebn *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] standards selling points
There are some Irish guidelines and what about the status of EU standards compliance? http://accessit.nda.ie/technologyindex_1.html Tim On 09/03/2007, at 1:18 AM, kevin mcmonagle wrote: Hello, This has been discussed before but i was wondering about new input. I've tendered on a big job and i will be up against a lot of competition. What are some web standards selling points that might get through to a completely uniformed, unsavy client. The job requires a cms, ill be using text pattern which I'm in the process of learning, because of this I dont know if ill be able to reach XHTML 1.0 Strict yet. I will just be building a standards compliant and accessible site-im not going to go to crazy with 14pt type. Also the client is a semi-state body-although there are no requirement here in Ireland for accessibility. -best kvnmcwebn *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** The Editor Heretic Press http://www.hereticpress.com Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] standards selling points
Best practices is a good phrase to use in conjunction with standards, especially when the best practices are research-based. Usability.gov provides free Research-Based Web Design Usability Guidelines that are quite comprehensive. On 3/8/07 8:18 AM, kevin mcmonagle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello, This has been discussed before but i was wondering about new input. I've tendered on a big job and i will be up against a lot of competition. What are some web standards selling points that might get through to a completely uniformed, unsavy client. The job requires a cms, ill be using text pattern which I'm in the process of learning, because of this I dont know if ill be able to reach XHTML 1.0 Strict yet. I will just be building a standards compliant and accessible site-im not going to go to crazy with 14pt type. Also the client is a semi-state body-although there are no requirement here in Ireland for accessibility. -best kvnmcwebn *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Standards War - HTML 5 vs XHTML 2.0
Adrian Lynch wrote: Knowing that XHTML5 is developed in the same spec means that we can push forward with our XSLT based workflows, and simply adjust to suit once XHTML5 is supported at the browser level. -- I had the same concern. As it turns out one can - at least in many cases - use the XML tools with the HTML-serialization as well. My understanding was corrected through the interchange in the following thread: http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2007-February/009473.html Lars Gunther *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] standards selling points
kevin mcmonagle wrote: Hello, This has been discussed before but i was wondering about new input. I've tendered on a big job and i will be up against a lot of competition. What are some web standards selling points that might get through to a completely uniformed, unsavy client. In a couple of weeks, I am facilitating a workshop entitled getting more from the time and money invested in online services aimed at the unsavvy client dealing with the techy. The slides may help you get a perspective of the other side and I would welcome feedback from the group: You will need to use: username: wsg password: wsg at http://www.ramin.com.au/workshops/value-of-online-services.html The job requires a cms, ill be using text pattern which I'm in the process of learning, because of this I dont know if ill be able to reach XHTML 1.0 Strict yet. I will just be building a standards compliant and accessible site-im not going to go to crazy with 14pt type. Also the client is a semi-state body-although there are no requirement here in Ireland for accessibility. -best kvnmcwebn *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Marghanita da Cruz http://www.ramin.com.au/ Telephone: 0414-869202 Ramin Communications Pty Ltd ABN: 027-089-713-084 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] standards selling points
In my experience, it's a bad move to try and sell a client on the technology you intend to use. The more technologically unsavvy they are, the less interested they will be in what technology you are using. (Remember this is my experience). I've had better success determining what problems the client has, which can be solved by a website. I then base my presentation on exactly how and why a website is the best solution. Sometimes a website is only part of the solution. Sometimes it isn't the best solution at all, and is instead a solution looking for a problem. If standards, and best practice are part of the solution to their problems, then you barely need to think about how to sell them on it. Just describe why it's the best solution to whatever the problem is. In a commercial situation, it may be about maximizing profit by reducing maintenance costs. In a government situation, it may be compliance with laws, and accessibility issues. In summary, focus more on problems and solutions, rather than specific technologies. -Breton. On 09/03/2007, at 1:18 AM, kevin mcmonagle wrote: Hello, This has been discussed before but i was wondering about new input. I've tendered on a big job and i will be up against a lot of competition. What are some web standards selling points that might get through to a completely uniformed, unsavy client. The job requires a cms, ill be using text pattern which I'm in the process of learning, because of this I dont know if ill be able to reach XHTML 1.0 Strict yet. I will just be building a standards compliant and accessible site- im not going to go to crazy with 14pt type. Also the client is a semi-state body-although there are no requirement here in Ireland for accessibility. -best kvnmcwebn *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] standards selling points
kevin mcmonagle wrote: Hello, This has been discussed before but i was wondering about new input. I've tendered on a big job and i will be up against a lot of competition. What are some web standards selling points that might get through to a completely uniformed, unsavy client. MACCAWS was ahead of its time and seems to have been forgotten, mores the pity, but it was set up specifically to help web designers in your position. There's a whole Kit of information here: http://www.maccaws.org/kit/ Making A Commercial Case for Adopting Web Standards | maccaws.org hth *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Standards and usability (was: Recommendations for Usability sub-contractor)
On Feb 28, 2007, at 9:03 PM, Mike Brown wrote: or even what makes a good usability consultant Perhaps, but I think what makes for usability itself should be a concern to us all. What are standards for after all? Is writing valid code an end in itself, or a means to an end? As I see it, it must be a means to an end, and that end is usability. Standards compliance tends towards maximising accessibility, and accessibility is the gatekeeper of usability: if a site is inaccessible then by definition it's unusable. Unfortunately, however, just because site is accessible, it is not necessarily usable. (The maze at Hampton Court is certainly accessible to almost any group I can think of - does that make it an ideal model for, say, the lobby of a bank?) But, standards are continually developing, and browsers are not all standards compliant and interpret standards differently. Tables for layout are anathema around here, right? But you can still write a table-layout page that validates? The recent long discussion of the semantic value of hr was interesting to me because I felt the real question being discussed was what is the USE of hr. So, is a compliant site that validates without error *by definition* accessible? I think not. Usable? Still less. Conversely, would a highly usable site *necessarily* validate without error? In an ideal future world we will deal with browsers that consistently display standards compliant sites, while at the same time still negotiating successfully with the millions (billions?) of pages that pay absolutely no heed to the very idea of standards. I'm not holding my breath... My point (finally) is this: Are there situations in which standards can be compromised in the name of usability? Andrew 109B SE 4th Av Gainesville FL 32601 Cell: 352-870-6661 http://www.andrewmaben.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a well designed user interface, the user should not need instructions. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Standards compliant slideshow
Hello, Can anyone please recommend a standards compliant slideshow script that uses a list of images within the HTML markup to dynamically create the show. Thanks Daz ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Standards compliant slideshow
Hi, Maybe you could take a look at HTML Sildy (www.w3.org/2005/03/slideshow.html )? -Ben Hello, Can anyone please recommend a standards compliant slideshow script that uses a list of images within the HTML markup to dynamically create the show. Thanks Daz ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Standards compliant slideshow
Can anyone please recommend a standards compliant slideshow script that uses a list of images within the HTML markup to dynamically create the show. http://slayeroffice.com/code/imageCrossFade/xfade2.html -- DonkeyMagic: Website design development http://www.donkeymagic.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Standards compliant slideshow
Thats cool, thanks all, although I think I may have miss explained myself - will simplify with links :) Basically I am trying to setup pagination - here are the pages: http://ta.rt-ms.net/teamengine/property.html http://ta.rt-ms.net/teamengine/assets/js/media.js And is the markup: div id=photos class=media h2Photos/h2 pImage 1 of 10/p ul lia id=previous href=Previous Image/a/li lia id=next href=Next Image/a/li /ul pimg id=placeholder src=assets/img/bss1931.jpg width=400 height=300 //p pClick to replace image above/p p id=gallery a href=assets/img/bss1931.jpgimg src=assets/img/bss1931T.jpg width=160 height=120 //a a href=assets/img/bss1931A.jpgimg src=assets/img/bss1931AT.jpg width=160 height=120 //a a href=assets/img/bss1931B.jpgimg src=assets/img/bss1931BT.jpg width=160 height=120 //a a href=assets/img/bss1931C.jpgimg src=assets/img/bss1931CT.jpg width=160 height=120 //a a href=assets/img/bss1931D.jpgimg src=assets/img/bss1931DT.jpg width=160 height=120 //a a href=assets/img/bss1931E.jpgimg src=assets/img/bss1931ET.jpg width=160 height=120 //a /p pa href=Back to top/a/p /div I want to use an unobtrusive method utilising the next and previous IDs to page the anchors href attribute. Thanks again all, any ideas would be very welcome. Daz On 13/03/06, Peter Goddard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Try Eric Meyer's solution http://meyerweb.com/eric/tools/s5/ Need I say More? Peter -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richard Stephenson Sent: 13 March 2006 15:01 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Standards compliant slideshow Can anyone please recommend a standards compliant slideshow script that uses a list of images within the HTML markup to dynamically create the show. http://slayeroffice.com/code/imageCrossFade/xfade2.html -- DonkeyMagic: Website design development http://www.donkeymagic.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Standards compliant slideshow
Darren West wrote: Hello, Can anyone please recommend a standards compliant slideshow script that uses a list of images within the HTML markup to dynamically create the show. Slightly self-promoting but try http://scooch.gr0w.com . The current demo is woefully out of date already with a lot of work being done now around extra functionality but the core slide show features will persist. Please feel free to try it and let us know what you think. There's a free for personal use download coming shortly. All the best, Jon ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Standards Savvy Shopping Cart
Hi, Bit late, but one is certainly on the way: http://www.enlightensupport.com I have no idea about timescales though. Antony -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Web Man Walking Sent: 02 February 2006 20:28 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: (Potential Spam) [WSG] Standards Savvy Shopping Cart Hello I am looking for a web standards friendly shopping cart for an upcoming project. I have had a look but not had much luck, previously used CactusASP but the amount of spurious and unnecessary HTML will not have me calling again. Would appreciate any links and/or recommendations. Thank you. DISCLAIMER: The information in this message is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee. Access to this message by anyone else is unauthorised. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, or distribution of the message, or any action or omission taken by you in reliance on it, is prohibited and may be unlawful. As a public body, Salford City Council may be required to disclose this email [or any response to it] under the Freedom of Information Act 2000, unless the information in it is covered by one of the exemptions in the Act. Please immediately contact the sender if you have received this message in error. For the full disclaimer please access http://www.salford.gov.uk/e-mail. Thank you. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Standards Savvy Shopping Cart
hello, does the ie7 beta allow scaling of fonts set in pixels? -kvnmcwebn ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Standards Savvy Shopping Cart
From: kvnmcwebn [EMAIL PROTECTED] hello, does the ie7 beta allow scaling of fonts set in pixels? -kvnmcwebn No - but it does have a new zoom tool a la Opera. -- Al Sparber PVII http://www.projectseven.com Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Standards Savvy Shopping Cart
Hey Ed You could do http://www.oscommerce.com with the STS Template contribution (see the Contributions page, search for STS) It allows you to completely reskin the tag casserole it ships with...so the Standards savvy bit falls onto your plate - but I haven't seen a shopping cart out there thats standards savvy out of the box... The next release of OSCommerce will have a CSS based layout as standard, apparently, but it may be a wee way off yet... ray At 07:27 AM 3/02/2006, you wrote: Hello I am looking for a web standards friendly shopping cart for an upcoming project. I have had a look but not had much luck, previously used CactusASP but the amount of spurious and unnecessary HTML will not have me calling again. Would appreciate any links and/or recommendations. Thank you. Regards Ed Henderson Web Man Walking - web design usability experts t: 0131 669 8800 (local) / 0800 781 2371 (freephone) m: 0781 253 6964 f: 0797 062 1532 e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] w: web-man-walking.com a: 48 Eastfield, Edinburgh, EH15 2PN skype: webmanwalking msn: [EMAIL PROTECTED] New technology, old fashioned service Best Regards Ray Cauchi Manager/Lead Developer ( T W E E K ! ) PO Box 15 Wentworth Falls NSW Australia 2782 | p:+61 2 4757 1600 | f: +61 2 4757 3808 | m: 0414 270 400 | e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | w: http://www.tweek.com.au
[WSG] Standards Savvy Shopping Cart
Title: Standards Savvy Shopping Cart Hello I am looking for a web standards friendly shopping cart for an upcoming project. I have had a look but not had much luck, previously used CactusASP but the amount of spurious and unnecessary HTML will not have me calling again. Would appreciate any links and/or recommendations. Thank you. Regards Ed Henderson Web Man Walking - web design usability experts t: 0131 669 8800 (local) / 0800 781 2371 (freephone) m: 0781 253 6964 f: 0797 062 1532 e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] w: web-man-walking.com a: 48 Eastfield, Edinburgh, EH15 2PN skype: webmanwalking msn: [EMAIL PROTECTED] New technology, old fashioned service
Re: [WSG] Standards Savvy Shopping Cart
Web Man Walking wrote: I am looking for a web standards friendly shopping cart for an upcoming project. I have had a look but not had much luck, previously used CactusASP but the amount of spurious and unnecessary HTML will not have me calling again. TradingEye is quite nice http://www.dpivision.com/products/ even out of the box, and fairly quick and easy to customise once you get your head around the straightforward templating system and a touch of coldfusion. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Standards Savvy Shopping Cart
CubeCart or Zen Cart may also be fine. -- Jan Brasna :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com | www.wdnews.net ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
