RE: [WSG] Use of PDFs - Accessibility issues
Hi, Have you tried RiverDocs: http://www.riverdocs.com/index.htm. You can sign up for a free evaluation licence for 14 days (no restrictions): http://www.riverdocs.com/product/download/index.html. The price is £399. If you are a member of GAWDS the cost is £299 until 22 June. Regards, Elaine Web Designer http://www.webdandy.co.uk -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Frank Palinkas Sent: 08 June 2007 06:19 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Use of PDFs - Accessibility issues Hi Michael, Not sure if this will help you, but on occasion I've been presented with .pdf files to convert to (x)html for web-based tech docs. I do this manually by creating templates in the Visual Studio 2005 markup source code editors, and then copy and paste the content from the .pdf's. This way I have complete control over the structure, presentation and behavior of the resulting web doc. This is ok if the .pdf's haven't been secured by a user name and password. If they have, then I'm outta luck as the copy/paste routine won't work. Personally, I wouldn't trust any .pdf to .html conversion app. If they exist, I feel it would create more work than what I already have to do in this scenario. Kind regards, Frank M. Palinkas Microsoft M.V.P. - Windows Help W3C HTML Working Group (H.T.M.L.W.G.) - Invited Expert M.C.P., M.C.T., M.C.S.E., M.C.D.B.A., A+ Senior Technical Communicator Web Standards Accessibility Designer website: http://frank.helpware.net email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] Member: Society for Technical Communications (S.T.C.) Guild of Accessible Web Designers (G.A.W.D.S.) Web Standards Group (W.S.G.) Supergroup Trading Ltd. Sandhurst, Gauteng, South Africa website: http://www.supergroup.co.za Work: +27 011 523 4931 Home: +27 011 455 5287 Fax: +27 011 455 3112 Mobile: +27 074 109 1908 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael MD Sent: Friday, 08 June, 2007 6:41 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Use of PDFs - Accessibility issues Here is the thread that discussed making PDFs accessible: http://www.mail-archive.com/wsg@webstandardsgroup.org/msg28067.html The effort involved in creating the PDFs in an accessible format will be significant. Handheld users frequently avoid opening PDFs since they are often a large file size - bandwidth and cost being the limiting factors here. how many mobile phone can read pdf? .. I suspect not many yet ... (I have yet to see one which can) btw does anyone know of anything that can export html (even if it is crap html) from a pdf ? (apart from Acrobat Pro itself - I can't justify spending that sort of money for just the occasional attempt to extract useful content from that occasasional pdf sent by clueless media publicists which would otherwise just be deleted) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Use of PDFs - Accessibility issues
Many thanks to everyone for posts and personal replies on this thread. I appreciate you all taking the time to respond. The opinions that most people have kindly put forward are very similar to my own, but I guess that I wanted to make sure that I wasn't about to give an inappropriate 'knee-jerk' response to the client, or was unaware of options that might be appropriate. I intend making a counter-proposal along the lines that have been suggested and will let you know what happens. Regards, Nick Andrew Maben wrote: On Jun 7, 2007, at 6:16 PM, Nick Gleitzman wrote: Nick Roper wrote: Just to confirm, the recommendation from the agency is to replace existing html content with PDF version, not to provide PDFs as an additional alternative. Nick, you've made it fairly clear that your question is about accessiblity in PDFs, rather than whether or not it's a good idea to use them - but I'm afraid the most common answer you're likely to get is going to be: don't rely on them exclusively. The web is for HTML; the ability to deliver other file types is possible, but not the best option if accessiblity is desired. As printable alternatives, sure, I guess (but what's wrong with a good print style sheet?) - but I'm thinking of a number of Aust Govt sites which insist on delivering critical info as PDFs and even Word docs, which I find astonishingly short-sighted, as well as probably an abuse of accessiblity guidelines, if not legislation. What if I don't have Word installed (and why should I?)? The site may certainly need an IA overhaul, if it's been mangled over time by too many cooks - but that's no reason to stop using HTML in favour of PDF, surely. I think the site owners should have it pointed out to them that the agency's recommendations are simply out of touch with what's needed. From WCAG Samurai Errata: *We ban most PDFs*: PDFs that should be HTML are banned unless they are accompanied by HTML. All other PDFs have to be tagged. Andrew 109B SE 4th Av Gainesville FL 32601 Cell: 352-870-6661 http://www.andrewmaben. http://www.andrewmaben.com/net [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] /In a well designed user interface, the user should not need //instructions./ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Nick Roper partner logical elements *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Use of PDFs - Accessibility issues
On Jun 7, 2007, at 6:16 PM, Nick Gleitzman wrote: Nick Roper wrote: Just to confirm, the recommendation from the agency is to replace existing html content with PDF version, not to provide PDFs as an additional alternative. Nick, you've made it fairly clear that your question is about accessiblity in PDFs, rather than whether or not it's a good idea to use them - but I'm afraid the most common answer you're likely to get is going to be: don't rely on them exclusively. The web is for HTML; the ability to deliver other file types is possible, but not the best option if accessiblity is desired. As printable alternatives, sure, I guess (but what's wrong with a good print style sheet?) - but I'm thinking of a number of Aust Govt sites which insist on delivering critical info as PDFs and even Word docs, which I find astonishingly short-sighted, as well as probably an abuse of accessiblity guidelines, if not legislation. What if I don't have Word installed (and why should I?)? The site may certainly need an IA overhaul, if it's been mangled over time by too many cooks - but that's no reason to stop using HTML in favour of PDF, surely. I think the site owners should have it pointed out to them that the agency's recommendations are simply out of touch with what's needed. From WCAG Samurai Errata: We ban most PDFs: PDFs that should be HTML are banned unless they are accompanied by HTML. All other PDFs have to be tagged. Andrew 109B SE 4th Av Gainesville FL 32601 Cell: 352-870-6661 http://www.andrewmaben.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a well designed user interface, the user should not need instructions. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Use of PDFs - Accessibility issues
I thing PDF may be delivery as a complement for save the doc to our computer. And should not be the single format for a web document, only if theres no other better way to display it. I thing there is no format to the web more complaint than a html web page. I like PDF when i want to save the dock to my computer to print or read later. But even read later i prefer to go to the web page, it could have been updated or have more useful comments. So i thing that marketing agency dont know nothing about web or web accessbility. If they know they should tell that should recommend PDF as a complement and not to replace HTML. Gaspar On 08/06/07, Andrew Maben [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jun 7, 2007, at 6:16 PM, Nick Gleitzman wrote: Nick Roper wrote: Just to confirm, the recommendation from the agency is to replace existing html content with PDF version, not to provide PDFs as an additional alternative. Nick, you've made it fairly clear that your question is about accessiblity in PDFs, rather than whether or not it's a good idea to use them - but I'm afraid the most common answer you're likely to get is going to be: don't rely on them exclusively. The web is for HTML; the ability to deliver other file types is possible, but not the best option if accessiblity is desired. As printable alternatives, sure, I guess (but what's wrong with a good print style sheet?) - but I'm thinking of a number of Aust Govt sites which insist on delivering critical info as PDFs and even Word docs, which I find astonishingly short-sighted, as well as probably an abuse of accessiblity guidelines, if not legislation. What if I don't have Word installed (and why should I?)? The site may certainly need an IA overhaul, if it's been mangled over time by too many cooks - but that's no reason to stop using HTML in favour of PDF, surely. I think the site owners should have it pointed out to them that the agency's recommendations are simply out of touch with what's needed. From WCAG Samurai Errata: We ban most PDFs: PDFs that should be HTML are banned unless they are accompanied by HTML. All other PDFs have to be tagged. Andrew 109B SE 4th Av Gainesville FL 32601 Cell: 352-870-6661 http://www.andrewmaben.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a well designed user interface, the user should not need instructions. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Make it simple for the people -- http://www.artideias.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Use of PDFs - Accessibility issues
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 06/07/2007 08:04:01 AM: Anyway, to get to the point, the customer has now been advised by a marketing agency that the site should be reduced in size to approx 45 key pages, and that the majority of content for things such as conference room specification and rates, bedroom specs and rates, menus, events, golf rates, membership rates etc, should be made available in PDF form instead of the html pages that are on the current site. I'm curious. Has the marketing agency ever been questioned as to *why* the web content should be converted from HTML to PDFs? What are the business reasons for the recommendation? What are the usability reasons for this recommendation? Is there an ultimate cost savings in creation and maintenance of the site by using PDFs for the majority of the content? Will there be an improvement in accessibility for web users by converting the content to PDFs? What about those web users who may not have a PDF reader installed on their computers? (Yes, this last question may seem nutty but how times have their been discussions about web users who deliberately disable Flash content for whatever reasons? The concept could be the same for folks who disable PDF access as well.) Has the marketing company offered cost savings in providing the web content as PDFs instead of HTML? Have they compared costs when it comes taking content and publishing it as accessible HTML vs creating an accessible content (say in Word or some other accessible document) and converting that to an accessible PDF for publication on the site? Will there be a consistency in making sure all the accessible PDFs are created using the exact same methods and procedures? It sounds to me that the marketing agency is pushing marketing hype for its own benefit and not creating and easy to use, and accessible content by following the KISS Principle. Dennis *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Use of PDFs - Accessibility issues
First of all, please let me know if this post is inappropriate for this list. If so then please point me elsewhere. We have a client for whom we created a website some 7 years ago. The site has developed over the years, and now comprises approximately 140 pages across a dozen or so categories. The customer is a hotel/leisure/golf resort in the UK and has two main types of site visitor: 1) Club members (approx 5000) 2) Non members that are looking for weekend breaks, golf venues, wedding venues, dining, conference facilities etc. The current site uses 99.9% html for content, with a server-based CMS that we developed and put in place at the outset, and which is used to update the site several times a day with news of results, events, etc, etc. Anyway, to get to the point, the customer has now been advised by a marketing agency that the site should be reduced in size to approx 45 key pages, and that the majority of content for things such as conference room specification and rates, bedroom specs and rates, menus, events, golf rates, membership rates etc, should be made available in PDF form instead of the html pages that are on the current site. I am aware that recent versions of Adobe allow more accessible PDF content to be created, but I would be grateful for thoughts on the use of PDF content instead of html content. Just to confirm, the recommendation from the agency is to replace existing html content with PDF version, not to provide PDFs as an additional alternative. I have researched articles on various sites, and the general advice seems to be that PDFs have their place when specific layout or functionality requires, but that these are generally considered to be fairly exceptional cases, such as legal forms that must be delivered in an original format, or multi-columnar information that cannot be degraded to an acceptable single column layout. I know that the customer will quite possibly consider any representation from us to avoid going down this path as an attempt to protect our interests in redevelopment proposals, so I would be very grateful for feedback and recommendations from others. Many thanks, -- Nick Roper partner logical elements *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Use of PDFs - Accessibility issues
Handheld users CAN view PDF. XDA's PDA's Blackberry Symbian etc etc... PDF can be made accessible just look at the features of Acrobats latest inception in CS3 Suite. Thanks, Mark -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Faulds Sent: 07 June 2007 23:00 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Use of PDFs - Accessibility issues There was some discussion recently about how hard it is to create accessible PDFs (ie very hard) but I would've thought the obvious reason not to do it is that not everyone has a PDF reader installed so why potentially cut off some of your content from certain users? If it's in HTML at least everyone's going to be able to see it. Also, are handheld users able to view PDFs? I would've thought not. On Fri, 08 Jun 2007 01:04:01 +1000, Nick Roper [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: First of all, please let me know if this post is inappropriate for this list. If so then please point me elsewhere. We have a client for whom we created a website some 7 years ago. The site has developed over the years, and now comprises approximately 140 pages across a dozen or so categories. The customer is a hotel/leisure/golf resort in the UK and has two main types of site visitor: 1) Club members (approx 5000) 2) Non members that are looking for weekend breaks, golf venues, wedding venues, dining, conference facilities etc. The current site uses 99.9% html for content, with a server-based CMS that we developed and put in place at the outset, and which is used to update the site several times a day with news of results, events, etc, etc. Anyway, to get to the point, the customer has now been advised by a marketing agency that the site should be reduced in size to approx 45 key pages, and that the majority of content for things such as conference room specification and rates, bedroom specs and rates, menus, events, golf rates, membership rates etc, should be made available in PDF form instead of the html pages that are on the current site. I am aware that recent versions of Adobe allow more accessible PDF content to be created, but I would be grateful for thoughts on the use of PDF content instead of html content. Just to confirm, the recommendation from the agency is to replace existing html content with PDF version, not to provide PDFs as an additional alternative. I have researched articles on various sites, and the general advice seems to be that PDFs have their place when specific layout or functionality requires, but that these are generally considered to be fairly exceptional cases, such as legal forms that must be delivered in an original format, or multi-columnar information that cannot be degraded to an acceptable single column layout. I know that the customer will quite possibly consider any representation from us to avoid going down this path as an attempt to protect our interests in redevelopment proposals, so I would be very grateful for feedback and recommendations from others. Many thanks, -- Tyssen Design www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Use of PDFs - Accessibility issues
Nick Roper wrote: Just to confirm, the recommendation from the agency is to replace existing html content with PDF version, not to provide PDFs as an additional alternative. Nick, you've made it fairly clear that your question is about accessiblity in PDFs, rather than whether or not it's a good idea to use them - but I'm afraid the most common answer you're likely to get is going to be: don't rely on them exclusively. The web is for HTML; the ability to deliver other file types is possible, but not the best option if accessiblity is desired. As printable alternatives, sure, I guess (but what's wrong with a good print style sheet?) - but I'm thinking of a number of Aust Govt sites which insist on delivering critical info as PDFs and even Word docs, which I find astonishingly short-sighted, as well as probably an abuse of accessiblity guidelines, if not legislation. What if I don't have Word installed (and why should I?)? The site may certainly need an IA overhaul, if it's been mangled over time by too many cooks - but that's no reason to stop using HTML in favour of PDF, surely. I think the site owners should have it pointed out to them that the agency's recommendations are simply out of touch with what's needed. HTH (a bit) N ___ omnivision. websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Use of PDFs - Accessibility issues
Mark Hedley wrote: Handheld users CAN view PDF. Rather a sweeping statement -- my SideKick II certainly can't. Though I can't imagine that I'd want it to -- it's bad enough that so many HTML sites don't linearize well to a small screen. A fixed format like PDF would be really painful to deal with... -- Hassan Schroeder - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Webtuitive Design === (+1) 408-938-0567 === http://webtuitive.com opinion: webtuitive.blogspot.com dream. code. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Use of PDFs - Accessibility issues
I didn't make an extensive list but yes, some devices don't / won't do PDF. Newer handheld smartphones hitting the consumer market are not geared more towards improving these issues. Cheers, Mark -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Hassan Schroeder Sent: 07 June 2007 23:46 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Use of PDFs - Accessibility issues Mark Hedley wrote: Handheld users CAN view PDF. Rather a sweeping statement -- my SideKick II certainly can't. Though I can't imagine that I'd want it to -- it's bad enough that so many HTML sites don't linearize well to a small screen. A fixed format like PDF would be really painful to deal with... -- Hassan Schroeder - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Webtuitive Design === (+1) 408-938-0567 === http://webtuitive.com opinion: webtuitive.blogspot.com dream. code. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Use of PDFs - Accessibility issues
[ED] I did of course mean they are now more geared towards improving these issues [/ED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Hedley Sent: 07 June 2007 23:51 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Use of PDFs - Accessibility issues I didn't make an extensive list but yes, some devices don't / won't do PDF. Newer handheld smartphones hitting the consumer market are not geared more towards improving these issues. Cheers, Mark -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Hassan Schroeder Sent: 07 June 2007 23:46 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Use of PDFs - Accessibility issues Mark Hedley wrote: Handheld users CAN view PDF. Rather a sweeping statement -- my SideKick II certainly can't. Though I can't imagine that I'd want it to -- it's bad enough that so many HTML sites don't linearize well to a small screen. A fixed format like PDF would be really painful to deal with... -- Hassan Schroeder - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Webtuitive Design === (+1) 408-938-0567 === http://webtuitive.com opinion: webtuitive.blogspot.com dream. code. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Use of PDFs - Accessibility issues
Here is the thread that discussed making PDFs accessible: http://www.mail-archive.com/wsg@webstandardsgroup.org/msg28067.html The effort involved in creating the PDFs in an accessible format will be significant. Handheld users frequently avoid opening PDFs since they are often a large file size - bandwidth and cost being the limiting factors here. Brad Pollard http://www.fatpublisher.com.au - Original Message - From: John Faulds [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 8:00 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Use of PDFs - Accessibility issues There was some discussion recently about how hard it is to create accessible PDFs (ie very hard) but I would've thought the obvious reason not to do it is that not everyone has a PDF reader installed so why potentially cut off some of your content from certain users? If it's in HTML at least everyone's going to be able to see it. Also, are handheld users able to view PDFs? I would've thought not. On Fri, 08 Jun 2007 01:04:01 +1000, Nick Roper [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: First of all, please let me know if this post is inappropriate for this list. If so then please point me elsewhere. We have a client for whom we created a website some 7 years ago. The site has developed over the years, and now comprises approximately 140 pages across a dozen or so categories. The customer is a hotel/leisure/golf resort in the UK and has two main types of site visitor: 1) Club members (approx 5000) 2) Non members that are looking for weekend breaks, golf venues, wedding venues, dining, conference facilities etc. The current site uses 99.9% html for content, with a server-based CMS that we developed and put in place at the outset, and which is used to update the site several times a day with news of results, events, etc, etc. Anyway, to get to the point, the customer has now been advised by a marketing agency that the site should be reduced in size to approx 45 key pages, and that the majority of content for things such as conference room specification and rates, bedroom specs and rates, menus, events, golf rates, membership rates etc, should be made available in PDF form instead of the html pages that are on the current site. I am aware that recent versions of Adobe allow more accessible PDF content to be created, but I would be grateful for thoughts on the use of PDF content instead of html content. Just to confirm, the recommendation from the agency is to replace existing html content with PDF version, not to provide PDFs as an additional alternative. I have researched articles on various sites, and the general advice seems to be that PDFs have their place when specific layout or functionality requires, but that these are generally considered to be fairly exceptional cases, such as legal forms that must be delivered in an original format, or multi-columnar information that cannot be degraded to an acceptable single column layout. I know that the customer will quite possibly consider any representation from us to avoid going down this path as an attempt to protect our interests in redevelopment proposals, so I would be very grateful for feedback and recommendations from others. Many thanks, -- Tyssen Design www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Use of PDFs - Accessibility issues
Do both... keep HTML for all the reasons already been raised (plus more) but maybe do a few pdfs as well which can be used as either print outs etc [EMAIL PROTECTED] 8/06/2007 6:00:00 am There was some discussion recently about how hard it is to create accessible PDFs (ie very hard) but I would've thought the obvious reason not to do it is that not everyone has a PDF reader installed so why potentially cut off some of your content from certain users? If it's in HTML at least everyone's going to be able to see it. Also, are handheld users able to view PDFs? I would've thought not. On Fri, 08 Jun 2007 01:04:01 +1000, Nick Roper [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: First of all, please let me know if this post is inappropriate for this list. If so then please point me elsewhere. We have a client for whom we created a website some 7 years ago. The site has developed over the years, and now comprises approximately 140 pages across a dozen or so categories. The customer is a hotel/leisure/golf resort in the UK and has two main types of site visitor: 1) Club members (approx 5000) 2) Non members that are looking for weekend breaks, golf venues, wedding venues, dining, conference facilities etc. The current site uses 99.9% html for content, with a server-based CMS that we developed and put in place at the outset, and which is used to update the site several times a day with news of results, events, etc, etc. Anyway, to get to the point, the customer has now been advised by a marketing agency that the site should be reduced in size to approx 45 key pages, and that the majority of content for things such as conference room specification and rates, bedroom specs and rates, menus, events, golf rates, membership rates etc, should be made available in PDF form instead of the html pages that are on the current site. I am aware that recent versions of Adobe allow more accessible PDF content to be created, but I would be grateful for thoughts on the use of PDF content instead of html content. Just to confirm, the recommendation from the agency is to replace existing html content with PDF version, not to provide PDFs as an additional alternative. I have researched articles on various sites, and the general advice seems to be that PDFs have their place when specific layout or functionality requires, but that these are generally considered to be fairly exceptional cases, such as legal forms that must be delivered in an original format, or multi-columnar information that cannot be degraded to an acceptable single column layout. I know that the customer will quite possibly consider any representation from us to avoid going down this path as an attempt to protect our interests in redevelopment proposals, so I would be very grateful for feedback and recommendations from others. Many thanks, -- Tyssen Design www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** ** The above message has been scanned and meets the Insurance Commission of Western Australia's Email security requirements for inbound transmission. ** The above message has been scanned and meets the Insurance Commission of Western Australia's Email security policy requirements for outbound transmission. This email (facsimile) and any attachments may be confidential and privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this email (facsimile) is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email (facsimile) in error please contact the Insurance Commission. Web: www.icwa.wa.gov.au Phone: +61 08 9264 * *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Use of PDFs - Accessibility issues
Here is the thread that discussed making PDFs accessible: http://www.mail-archive.com/wsg@webstandardsgroup.org/msg28067.html The effort involved in creating the PDFs in an accessible format will be significant. Handheld users frequently avoid opening PDFs since they are often a large file size - bandwidth and cost being the limiting factors here. how many mobile phone can read pdf? .. I suspect not many yet ... (I have yet to see one which can) btw does anyone know of anything that can export html (even if it is crap html) from a pdf ? (apart from Acrobat Pro itself - I can't justify spending that sort of money for just the occasional attempt to extract useful content from that occasasional pdf sent by clueless media publicists which would otherwise just be deleted) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Use of PDFs - Accessibility issues
Hi Michael, Not sure if this will help you, but on occasion I've been presented with .pdf files to convert to (x)html for web-based tech docs. I do this manually by creating templates in the Visual Studio 2005 markup source code editors, and then copy and paste the content from the .pdf's. This way I have complete control over the structure, presentation and behavior of the resulting web doc. This is ok if the .pdf's haven't been secured by a user name and password. If they have, then I'm outta luck as the copy/paste routine won't work. Personally, I wouldn't trust any .pdf to .html conversion app. If they exist, I feel it would create more work than what I already have to do in this scenario. Kind regards, Frank M. Palinkas Microsoft M.V.P. - Windows Help W3C HTML Working Group (H.T.M.L.W.G.) - Invited Expert M.C.P., M.C.T., M.C.S.E., M.C.D.B.A., A+ Senior Technical Communicator Web Standards Accessibility Designer website: http://frank.helpware.net email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] Member: Society for Technical Communications (S.T.C.) Guild of Accessible Web Designers (G.A.W.D.S.) Web Standards Group (W.S.G.) Supergroup Trading Ltd. Sandhurst, Gauteng, South Africa website: http://www.supergroup.co.za Work: +27 011 523 4931 Home: +27 011 455 5287 Fax: +27 011 455 3112 Mobile: +27 074 109 1908 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael MD Sent: Friday, 08 June, 2007 6:41 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Use of PDFs - Accessibility issues Here is the thread that discussed making PDFs accessible: http://www.mail-archive.com/wsg@webstandardsgroup.org/msg28067.html The effort involved in creating the PDFs in an accessible format will be significant. Handheld users frequently avoid opening PDFs since they are often a large file size - bandwidth and cost being the limiting factors here. how many mobile phone can read pdf? .. I suspect not many yet ... (I have yet to see one which can) btw does anyone know of anything that can export html (even if it is crap html) from a pdf ? (apart from Acrobat Pro itself - I can't justify spending that sort of money for just the occasional attempt to extract useful content from that occasasional pdf sent by clueless media publicists which would otherwise just be deleted) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Use of PDFs - Accessibility issues
Anyway, to get to the point, the customer has now been advised by a marketing agency that the site should be reduced in size to approx 45 key pages, and that the majority of content for things such as conference room specification and rates, bedroom specs and rates, menus, events, golf rates, membership rates etc, should be made available in PDF form instead of the html pages that are on the current site. Out of curiosity, did they give a reason for this advice? I am aware that recent versions of Adobe allow more accessible PDF content to be created, but I would be grateful for thoughts on the use of PDF content instead of html content. PDFs *can be* accessible, but only if the people creating them are extremely well trained and motivated to do so. It is *not* a matter of buying the latest version of Acrobat and hitting export. The real world result is that PDFs *usually are not accessible*. Because usually they're produced by people who have absolutely no training in producing PDFs for on-screen use. Even if they were produced perfectly and they were all accessible, I still wouldn't recommend using PDFs instead of HTML. Fundamentally PDFs are not web documents! They can be delivered via the web but they are not web pages and should never be treated that way. PDFs introduce a huge range of usability issues and the short version is they really annoy the average user and confuse the heck out of less savvy users. I cannot see any logical reason for the advice to your client to go over to mostly-PDF. I would suggest finding out why they suggested it and address the underlying issue. eg. if they want the pages to print well, build a print stylesheet. If they want the page to be updated frequently, train someone to do the HTML/use the CMS. If they don't want prices getting indexed by search engines, use the appropriate meta tags. If they're desperate to control print, then they could *add* PDFs but they shouldn't ditch the HTML. cheers, Ben -- --- http://weblog.200ok.com.au/ --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***