RE: [WSG] Use of PDFs - Accessibility issues

2007-06-08 Thread Web Dandy Design
Hi,

Have you tried RiverDocs: http://www.riverdocs.com/index.htm. You can sign
up for a free evaluation licence for 14 days (no restrictions):
http://www.riverdocs.com/product/download/index.html. 

The price is £399. If you are a member of GAWDS the cost is £299 until 22
June.

Regards,

Elaine
Web Designer
http://www.webdandy.co.uk

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Frank Palinkas
Sent: 08 June 2007 06:19
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] Use of PDFs - Accessibility issues

Hi Michael,

Not sure if this will help you, but on occasion I've been presented with
.pdf
files to convert to (x)html for web-based tech docs. I do this manually by
creating templates in the Visual Studio 2005 markup source code editors, and
then copy and paste the content from the .pdf's. This way I have complete
control over the structure, presentation and behavior of the resulting web
doc.

This is ok if the .pdf's haven't been secured by a user name and password.
If
they have, then I'm outta luck as the copy/paste routine won't work.
Personally, I wouldn't trust any .pdf to .html conversion app. If they
exist,
I feel it would create more work than what I already have to do in this
scenario.

Kind regards,

Frank M. Palinkas
Microsoft M.V.P. - Windows Help
W3C HTML Working Group (H.T.M.L.W.G.) - Invited Expert
M.C.P., M.C.T., M.C.S.E., M.C.D.B.A., A+   
Senior Technical Communicator 
Web Standards  Accessibility Designer 

website: http://frank.helpware.net 
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
Member: 
Society for Technical Communications (S.T.C.) 
Guild of Accessible Web Designers (G.A.W.D.S.)
Web Standards Group (W.S.G.) 

Supergroup Trading Ltd. 
Sandhurst, Gauteng, South Africa 
website: http://www.supergroup.co.za

Work:   +27 011 523 4931 
Home:   +27 011 455 5287 
Fax:    +27 011 455 3112 
Mobile: +27 074 109 1908


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Michael MD
Sent: Friday, 08 June, 2007 6:41 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Use of PDFs - Accessibility issues



 Here is the thread that discussed making PDFs accessible:
 http://www.mail-archive.com/wsg@webstandardsgroup.org/msg28067.html

 The effort involved in creating the PDFs in an accessible format will be
 significant.

 Handheld users frequently avoid opening PDFs since they are often a large
 file size - bandwidth and cost being the limiting factors here.


how many mobile phone can read pdf? .. I suspect not many yet  ... (I have 
yet to see one which can)

btw does anyone know of anything that can export html (even if it is crap 
html) from a pdf ?

(apart from Acrobat Pro itself  - I can't justify spending that sort of 
money for just the occasional attempt to extract useful content from that 
occasasional pdf sent by clueless media publicists which would otherwise 
just be deleted)





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Re: [WSG] Use of PDFs - Accessibility issues

2007-06-08 Thread Nick Roper
Many thanks to everyone for posts and personal replies on this thread. I 
appreciate you all taking the time to respond.


The opinions that most people have kindly put forward are very similar 
to my own, but I guess that I wanted to make sure that I wasn't about to 
give an inappropriate 'knee-jerk' response to the client, or was unaware 
of options that might be appropriate. I intend making a counter-proposal 
along the lines that have been suggested and will let you know what happens.


Regards,

Nick

Andrew Maben wrote:


On Jun 7, 2007, at 6:16 PM, Nick Gleitzman wrote:


Nick Roper wrote:

Just to confirm, the recommendation from the agency is to replace 
existing html content with PDF version, not to provide PDFs as an 
additional alternative.


Nick, you've made it fairly clear that your question is about 
accessiblity in PDFs, rather than whether or not it's a good idea to 
use them - but I'm afraid the most common answer you're likely to get 
is going to be: don't rely on them exclusively.


The web is for HTML; the ability to deliver other file types is 
possible, but not the best option if accessiblity is desired. As 
printable alternatives, sure, I guess (but what's wrong with a good 
print style sheet?) - but I'm thinking of a number of Aust Govt sites 
which insist on delivering critical info as PDFs and even Word docs, 
which I find astonishingly short-sighted, as well as probably an abuse 
of accessiblity guidelines, if not legislation. What if I don't have 
Word installed (and why should I?)?


The site may certainly need an IA overhaul, if it's been mangled over 
time by too many cooks - but that's no reason to stop using HTML in 
favour of PDF, surely. I think the site owners should have it pointed 
out to them that the agency's recommendations are simply out of touch 
with what's needed.


 From WCAG Samurai Errata:

*We ban most PDFs*: PDFs that should be HTML are banned unless they are 
accompanied by HTML. All other PDFs have to be tagged.


Andrew

 


109B SE 4th Av
Gainesville
FL 32601

Cell: 352-870-6661

http://www.andrewmaben. http://www.andrewmaben.com/net
[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

/In a well designed user interface, the user should not 
need //instructions./




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Nick Roper
partner
logical elements


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Re: [WSG] Use of PDFs - Accessibility issues

2007-06-08 Thread Andrew Maben


On Jun 7, 2007, at 6:16 PM, Nick Gleitzman wrote:


Nick Roper wrote:

Just to confirm, the recommendation from the agency is to replace  
existing html content with PDF version, not to provide PDFs as an  
additional alternative.


Nick, you've made it fairly clear that your question is about  
accessiblity in PDFs, rather than whether or not it's a good idea  
to use them - but I'm afraid the most common answer you're likely  
to get is going to be: don't rely on them exclusively.


The web is for HTML; the ability to deliver other file types is  
possible, but not the best option if accessiblity is desired. As  
printable alternatives, sure, I guess (but what's wrong with a good  
print style sheet?) - but I'm thinking of a number of Aust Govt  
sites which insist on delivering critical info as PDFs and even  
Word docs, which I find astonishingly short-sighted, as well as  
probably an abuse of accessiblity guidelines, if not legislation.  
What if I don't have Word installed (and why should I?)?


The site may certainly need an IA overhaul, if it's been mangled  
over time by too many cooks - but that's no reason to stop using  
HTML in favour of PDF, surely. I think the site owners should have  
it pointed out to them that the agency's recommendations are simply  
out of touch with what's needed.


From WCAG Samurai Errata:

We ban most PDFs: PDFs that should be HTML are banned unless they  
are accompanied by HTML. All other PDFs have to be tagged.


Andrew

109B SE 4th Av
Gainesville
FL 32601

Cell: 352-870-6661

http://www.andrewmaben.net
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

In a well designed user interface, the user should not need  
instructions.





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Re: [WSG] Use of PDFs - Accessibility issues

2007-06-08 Thread Gaspar

I thing PDF may be delivery as a complement for save the doc to our computer.
And should not be the single format for a web document, only if theres
no other better way to display it.

I thing there is no format to the web more complaint than a html web page.

I like PDF when i want to save  the dock to my computer to print or
read later. But even read later i prefer to go to the web page, it
could have been updated or have more useful comments.

So i thing that marketing agency dont know nothing about web or web
accessbility. If they know they  should tell that should recommend PDF
as a complement and not to replace HTML.

Gaspar

On 08/06/07, Andrew Maben [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



On Jun 7, 2007, at 6:16 PM, Nick Gleitzman wrote:

Nick Roper wrote:


Just to confirm, the recommendation from the agency is to replace existing
html content with PDF version, not to provide PDFs as an additional
alternative.

Nick, you've made it fairly clear that your question is about accessiblity
in PDFs, rather than whether or not it's a good idea to use them - but I'm
afraid the most common answer you're likely to get is going to be: don't
rely on them exclusively.

The web is for HTML; the ability to deliver other file types is possible,
but not the best option if accessiblity is desired. As printable
alternatives, sure, I guess (but what's wrong with a good print style
sheet?) - but I'm thinking of a number of Aust Govt sites which insist on
delivering critical info as PDFs and even Word docs, which I find
astonishingly short-sighted, as well as probably an abuse of accessiblity
guidelines, if not legislation. What if I don't have Word installed (and why
should I?)?

The site may certainly need an IA overhaul, if it's been mangled over time
by too many cooks - but that's no reason to stop using HTML in favour of
PDF, surely. I think the site owners should have it pointed out to them that
the agency's recommendations are simply out of touch with what's needed.

From WCAG Samurai Errata:

We ban most PDFs: PDFs that should be HTML are banned unless they are
accompanied by HTML. All other PDFs have to be tagged.

Andrew


109B SE 4th Av
Gainesville
FL 32601

Cell: 352-870-6661

http://www.andrewmaben.net
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

In a well designed user interface, the user should not need instructions.


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Re: [WSG] Use of PDFs - Accessibility issues

2007-06-08 Thread Dennis Lapcewich



[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 06/07/2007 08:04:01 AM:

 Anyway, to get to the point, the customer has now been advised by a
 marketing agency that the site should be reduced in size to approx 45
 key pages, and that the majority of content for things such as
 conference room specification and rates, bedroom specs and rates, menus,
 events, golf rates, membership rates etc, should be made available in
 PDF form instead of the html pages that are on the current site.


I'm curious.  Has the marketing agency ever been questioned as to *why* the
web content should be converted from HTML to PDFs?  What are the business
reasons for the recommendation?  What are the usability reasons for this
recommendation?  Is there an ultimate cost savings in creation and
maintenance of the site by using PDFs for the majority of the content?
Will there be an improvement in accessibility for web users by converting
the content to PDFs?  What about those web users who may not have a PDF
reader installed on their computers?  (Yes, this last question may seem
nutty but how times have their been discussions about web users who
deliberately disable Flash content for whatever reasons?  The concept could
be the same for folks who disable PDF access as well.)

Has the marketing company offered cost savings in providing the web content
as PDFs instead of HTML?  Have they compared costs when it comes taking
content and publishing it as accessible HTML vs creating an accessible
content (say in Word or some other accessible document) and converting that
to an accessible PDF for publication on the site?  Will there be a
consistency in making sure all the accessible PDFs are created using the
exact same methods and procedures?

It sounds to me that the marketing agency is pushing marketing hype for its
own benefit and not creating and easy to use, and accessible content by
following the KISS Principle.

Dennis



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[WSG] Use of PDFs - Accessibility issues

2007-06-07 Thread Nick Roper
First of all, please let me know if this post is inappropriate for this 
list. If so then please point me elsewhere.


We have a client for whom we created a website some 7 years ago. The 
site has developed over the years, and now comprises approximately 140 
pages across a dozen or so categories. The customer is a 
hotel/leisure/golf resort in the UK and has two main types of site visitor:


1) Club members (approx 5000)
2) Non members that are looking for weekend breaks, golf venues, wedding 
venues, dining, conference facilities etc.


The current site uses 99.9% html for content, with a server-based CMS 
that we developed and put in place at the outset, and which is used to 
update the site several times a day with news of results, events, etc, etc.


Anyway, to get to the point, the customer has now been advised by a 
marketing agency that the site should be reduced in size to approx 45 
key pages, and that the majority of content for things such as 
conference room specification and rates, bedroom specs and rates, menus, 
events, golf rates, membership rates etc, should be made available in 
PDF form instead of the html pages that are on the current site.


I am aware that recent versions of Adobe allow more accessible PDF 
content to be created, but I would be grateful for thoughts on the use 
of PDF content instead of html content. Just to confirm, the 
recommendation from the agency is to replace existing html content with 
PDF version, not to provide PDFs as an additional alternative.


I have researched articles on various sites, and the general advice 
seems to be that PDFs have their place when specific layout or 
functionality requires, but that these are generally considered to be 
fairly exceptional cases, such as legal forms that must be delivered in 
an original format, or multi-columnar information that cannot be 
degraded to an acceptable single column layout.


I know that the customer will quite possibly consider any representation 
from us to avoid going down this path as an attempt to protect our 
interests in redevelopment proposals, so I would be very grateful for 
feedback and recommendations from others.


Many thanks,


--
Nick Roper
partner
logical elements



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RE: [WSG] Use of PDFs - Accessibility issues

2007-06-07 Thread Mark Hedley
Handheld users CAN view PDF.

XDA's 
PDA's
Blackberry
Symbian etc etc...

PDF can be made accessible just look at the features of Acrobats latest
inception in CS3 Suite.

Thanks,

Mark


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of John Faulds
Sent: 07 June 2007 23:00
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Use of PDFs - Accessibility issues

There was some discussion recently about how hard it is to create  
accessible PDFs (ie very hard) but I would've thought the obvious reason

not to do it is that not everyone has a PDF reader installed so why  
potentially cut off some of your content from certain users? If it's in

HTML at least everyone's going to be able to see it. Also, are handheld

users able to view PDFs? I would've thought not.

On Fri, 08 Jun 2007 01:04:01 +1000, Nick Roper [EMAIL PROTECTED]  
wrote:

 First of all, please let me know if this post is inappropriate for
this  
 list. If so then please point me elsewhere.

 We have a client for whom we created a website some 7 years ago. The  
 site has developed over the years, and now comprises approximately 140

 pages across a dozen or so categories. The customer is a  
 hotel/leisure/golf resort in the UK and has two main types of site  
 visitor:

 1) Club members (approx 5000)
 2) Non members that are looking for weekend breaks, golf venues,
wedding  
 venues, dining, conference facilities etc.

 The current site uses 99.9% html for content, with a server-based CMS

 that we developed and put in place at the outset, and which is used to

 update the site several times a day with news of results, events, etc,

 etc.

 Anyway, to get to the point, the customer has now been advised by a  
 marketing agency that the site should be reduced in size to approx 45

 key pages, and that the majority of content for things such as  
 conference room specification and rates, bedroom specs and rates,
menus,  
 events, golf rates, membership rates etc, should be made available in

 PDF form instead of the html pages that are on the current site.

 I am aware that recent versions of Adobe allow more accessible PDF  
 content to be created, but I would be grateful for thoughts on the use

 of PDF content instead of html content. Just to confirm, the  
 recommendation from the agency is to replace existing html content
with  
 PDF version, not to provide PDFs as an additional alternative.

 I have researched articles on various sites, and the general advice  
 seems to be that PDFs have their place when specific layout or  
 functionality requires, but that these are generally considered to be

 fairly exceptional cases, such as legal forms that must be delivered
in  
 an original format, or multi-columnar information that cannot be  
 degraded to an acceptable single column layout.

 I know that the customer will quite possibly consider any
representation  
 from us to avoid going down this path as an attempt to protect our  
 interests in redevelopment proposals, so I would be very grateful for

 feedback and recommendations from others.

 Many thanks,





-- 
Tyssen Design
www.tyssendesign.com.au
Ph: (07) 3300 3303
Mb: 0405 678 590


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Re: [WSG] Use of PDFs - Accessibility issues

2007-06-07 Thread Nick Gleitzman

Nick Roper wrote:

Just to confirm, the recommendation from the agency is to replace 
existing html content with PDF version, not to provide PDFs as an 
additional alternative.


Nick, you've made it fairly clear that your question is about 
accessiblity in PDFs, rather than whether or not it's a good idea to 
use them - but I'm afraid the most common answer you're likely to get 
is going to be: don't rely on them exclusively.


The web is for HTML; the ability to deliver other file types is 
possible, but not the best option if accessiblity is desired. As 
printable alternatives, sure, I guess (but what's wrong with a good 
print style sheet?) - but I'm thinking of a number of Aust Govt sites 
which insist on delivering critical info as PDFs and even Word docs, 
which I find astonishingly short-sighted, as well as probably an abuse 
of accessiblity guidelines, if not legislation. What if I don't have 
Word installed (and why should I?)?


The site may certainly need an IA overhaul, if it's been mangled over 
time by too many cooks - but that's no reason to stop using HTML in 
favour of PDF, surely. I think the site owners should have it pointed 
out to them that the agency's recommendations are simply out of touch 
with what's needed.


HTH (a bit)
N
___
omnivision. websight.
http://www.omnivision.com.au/



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Re: [WSG] Use of PDFs - Accessibility issues

2007-06-07 Thread Hassan Schroeder
Mark Hedley wrote:
 Handheld users CAN view PDF.

Rather a sweeping statement -- my SideKick II certainly can't.

Though I can't imagine that I'd want it to -- it's bad enough that
so many HTML sites don't linearize well to a small screen. A fixed
format like PDF would be really painful to deal with...

-- 
Hassan Schroeder - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Webtuitive Design ===  (+1) 408-938-0567   === http://webtuitive.com
opinion: webtuitive.blogspot.com

  dream.  code.




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RE: [WSG] Use of PDFs - Accessibility issues

2007-06-07 Thread Mark Hedley
I didn't make an extensive list but yes, some devices don't / won't do PDF.

Newer handheld smartphones hitting the consumer market are not geared more 
towards improving these issues.

Cheers,

Mark

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Hassan Schroeder
Sent: 07 June 2007 23:46
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Use of PDFs - Accessibility issues

Mark Hedley wrote:
 Handheld users CAN view PDF.

Rather a sweeping statement -- my SideKick II certainly can't.

Though I can't imagine that I'd want it to -- it's bad enough that
so many HTML sites don't linearize well to a small screen. A fixed
format like PDF would be really painful to deal with...

-- 
Hassan Schroeder - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Webtuitive Design ===  (+1) 408-938-0567   === http://webtuitive.com
opinion: webtuitive.blogspot.com

  dream.  code.




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RE: [WSG] Use of PDFs - Accessibility issues

2007-06-07 Thread Mark Hedley
[ED]

I did of course mean they are now more geared towards improving these issues

[/ED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Hedley
Sent: 07 June 2007 23:51
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] Use of PDFs - Accessibility issues

I didn't make an extensive list but yes, some devices don't / won't do PDF.

Newer handheld smartphones hitting the consumer market are not geared more 
towards improving these issues.

Cheers,

Mark

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Hassan Schroeder
Sent: 07 June 2007 23:46
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Use of PDFs - Accessibility issues

Mark Hedley wrote:
 Handheld users CAN view PDF.

Rather a sweeping statement -- my SideKick II certainly can't.

Though I can't imagine that I'd want it to -- it's bad enough that
so many HTML sites don't linearize well to a small screen. A fixed
format like PDF would be really painful to deal with...

-- 
Hassan Schroeder - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Webtuitive Design ===  (+1) 408-938-0567   === http://webtuitive.com
opinion: webtuitive.blogspot.com

  dream.  code.




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Re: [WSG] Use of PDFs - Accessibility issues

2007-06-07 Thread Brad Pollard
Here is the thread that discussed making PDFs accessible: 
http://www.mail-archive.com/wsg@webstandardsgroup.org/msg28067.html

The effort involved in creating the PDFs in an accessible format will be 
significant.

Handheld users frequently avoid opening PDFs since they are often a large 
file size - bandwidth and cost being the limiting factors here.

Brad Pollard
http://www.fatpublisher.com.au

- Original Message - 
From: John Faulds [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 8:00 AM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Use of PDFs - Accessibility issues


There was some discussion recently about how hard it is to create
accessible PDFs (ie very hard) but I would've thought the obvious reason
not to do it is that not everyone has a PDF reader installed so why
potentially cut off some of your content from certain users? If it's in
HTML at least everyone's going to be able to see it. Also, are handheld
users able to view PDFs? I would've thought not.

On Fri, 08 Jun 2007 01:04:01 +1000, Nick Roper [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 First of all, please let me know if this post is inappropriate for this
 list. If so then please point me elsewhere.

 We have a client for whom we created a website some 7 years ago. The
 site has developed over the years, and now comprises approximately 140
 pages across a dozen or so categories. The customer is a
 hotel/leisure/golf resort in the UK and has two main types of site
 visitor:

 1) Club members (approx 5000)
 2) Non members that are looking for weekend breaks, golf venues, wedding
 venues, dining, conference facilities etc.

 The current site uses 99.9% html for content, with a server-based CMS
 that we developed and put in place at the outset, and which is used to
 update the site several times a day with news of results, events, etc,
 etc.

 Anyway, to get to the point, the customer has now been advised by a
 marketing agency that the site should be reduced in size to approx 45
 key pages, and that the majority of content for things such as
 conference room specification and rates, bedroom specs and rates, menus,
 events, golf rates, membership rates etc, should be made available in
 PDF form instead of the html pages that are on the current site.

 I am aware that recent versions of Adobe allow more accessible PDF
 content to be created, but I would be grateful for thoughts on the use
 of PDF content instead of html content. Just to confirm, the
 recommendation from the agency is to replace existing html content with
 PDF version, not to provide PDFs as an additional alternative.

 I have researched articles on various sites, and the general advice
 seems to be that PDFs have their place when specific layout or
 functionality requires, but that these are generally considered to be
 fairly exceptional cases, such as legal forms that must be delivered in
 an original format, or multi-columnar information that cannot be
 degraded to an acceptable single column layout.

 I know that the customer will quite possibly consider any representation
 from us to avoid going down this path as an attempt to protect our
 interests in redevelopment proposals, so I would be very grateful for
 feedback and recommendations from others.

 Many thanks,





-- 
Tyssen Design
www.tyssendesign.com.au
Ph: (07) 3300 3303
Mb: 0405 678 590


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Re: [WSG] Use of PDFs - Accessibility issues

2007-06-07 Thread Jermayn Parker
Do both...
keep HTML for all the reasons already been raised (plus more) but maybe
do a few pdfs as well which can be used as either print outs etc





 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 8/06/2007 6:00:00 am 
There was some discussion recently about how hard it is to create  
accessible PDFs (ie very hard) but I would've thought the obvious
reason  
not to do it is that not everyone has a PDF reader installed so why  
potentially cut off some of your content from certain users? If it's in
 
HTML at least everyone's going to be able to see it. Also, are handheld
 
users able to view PDFs? I would've thought not.

On Fri, 08 Jun 2007 01:04:01 +1000, Nick Roper [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

wrote:

 First of all, please let me know if this post is inappropriate for
this  
 list. If so then please point me elsewhere.

 We have a client for whom we created a website some 7 years ago. The 

 site has developed over the years, and now comprises approximately
140  
 pages across a dozen or so categories. The customer is a  
 hotel/leisure/golf resort in the UK and has two main types of site  
 visitor:

 1) Club members (approx 5000)
 2) Non members that are looking for weekend breaks, golf venues,
wedding  
 venues, dining, conference facilities etc.

 The current site uses 99.9% html for content, with a server-based CMS
 
 that we developed and put in place at the outset, and which is used
to  
 update the site several times a day with news of results, events,
etc,  
 etc.

 Anyway, to get to the point, the customer has now been advised by a 

 marketing agency that the site should be reduced in size to approx 45
 
 key pages, and that the majority of content for things such as  
 conference room specification and rates, bedroom specs and rates,
menus,  
 events, golf rates, membership rates etc, should be made available in
 
 PDF form instead of the html pages that are on the current site.

 I am aware that recent versions of Adobe allow more accessible PDF  
 content to be created, but I would be grateful for thoughts on the
use  
 of PDF content instead of html content. Just to confirm, the  
 recommendation from the agency is to replace existing html content
with  
 PDF version, not to provide PDFs as an additional alternative.

 I have researched articles on various sites, and the general advice 

 seems to be that PDFs have their place when specific layout or  
 functionality requires, but that these are generally considered to be
 
 fairly exceptional cases, such as legal forms that must be delivered
in  
 an original format, or multi-columnar information that cannot be  
 degraded to an acceptable single column layout.

 I know that the customer will quite possibly consider any
representation  
 from us to avoid going down this path as an attempt to protect our  
 interests in redevelopment proposals, so I would be very grateful for
 
 feedback and recommendations from others.

 Many thanks,





-- 
Tyssen Design
www.tyssendesign.com.au 
Ph: (07) 3300 3303
Mb: 0405 678 590


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Re: [WSG] Use of PDFs - Accessibility issues

2007-06-07 Thread Michael MD




Here is the thread that discussed making PDFs accessible:
http://www.mail-archive.com/wsg@webstandardsgroup.org/msg28067.html

The effort involved in creating the PDFs in an accessible format will be
significant.

Handheld users frequently avoid opening PDFs since they are often a large
file size - bandwidth and cost being the limiting factors here.



how many mobile phone can read pdf? .. I suspect not many yet  ... (I have 
yet to see one which can)


btw does anyone know of anything that can export html (even if it is crap 
html) from a pdf ?


(apart from Acrobat Pro itself  - I can't justify spending that sort of 
money for just the occasional attempt to extract useful content from that 
occasasional pdf sent by clueless media publicists which would otherwise 
just be deleted)






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RE: [WSG] Use of PDFs - Accessibility issues

2007-06-07 Thread Frank Palinkas
Hi Michael,

Not sure if this will help you, but on occasion I've been presented with .pdf
files to convert to (x)html for web-based tech docs. I do this manually by
creating templates in the Visual Studio 2005 markup source code editors, and
then copy and paste the content from the .pdf's. This way I have complete
control over the structure, presentation and behavior of the resulting web
doc.

This is ok if the .pdf's haven't been secured by a user name and password. If
they have, then I'm outta luck as the copy/paste routine won't work.
Personally, I wouldn't trust any .pdf to .html conversion app. If they exist,
I feel it would create more work than what I already have to do in this
scenario.

Kind regards,

Frank M. Palinkas
Microsoft M.V.P. - Windows Help
W3C HTML Working Group (H.T.M.L.W.G.) - Invited Expert
M.C.P., M.C.T., M.C.S.E., M.C.D.B.A., A+   
Senior Technical Communicator 
Web Standards  Accessibility Designer 

website: http://frank.helpware.net 
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
Member: 
Society for Technical Communications (S.T.C.) 
Guild of Accessible Web Designers (G.A.W.D.S.)
Web Standards Group (W.S.G.) 

Supergroup Trading Ltd. 
Sandhurst, Gauteng, South Africa 
website: http://www.supergroup.co.za

Work:   +27 011 523 4931 
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-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Michael MD
Sent: Friday, 08 June, 2007 6:41 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Use of PDFs - Accessibility issues



 Here is the thread that discussed making PDFs accessible:
 http://www.mail-archive.com/wsg@webstandardsgroup.org/msg28067.html

 The effort involved in creating the PDFs in an accessible format will be
 significant.

 Handheld users frequently avoid opening PDFs since they are often a large
 file size - bandwidth and cost being the limiting factors here.


how many mobile phone can read pdf? .. I suspect not many yet  ... (I have 
yet to see one which can)

btw does anyone know of anything that can export html (even if it is crap 
html) from a pdf ?

(apart from Acrobat Pro itself  - I can't justify spending that sort of 
money for just the occasional attempt to extract useful content from that 
occasasional pdf sent by clueless media publicists which would otherwise 
just be deleted)





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Re: [WSG] Use of PDFs - Accessibility issues

2007-06-07 Thread Ben Buchanan

Anyway, to get to the point, the customer has now been advised by a
marketing agency that the site should be reduced in size to approx 45
key pages, and that the majority of content for things such as
conference room specification and rates, bedroom specs and rates, menus,
events, golf rates, membership rates etc, should be made available in
PDF form instead of the html pages that are on the current site.


Out of curiosity, did they give a reason for this advice?


I am aware that recent versions of Adobe allow more accessible PDF
content to be created, but I would be grateful for thoughts on the use
of PDF content instead of html content.


PDFs *can be* accessible, but only if the people creating them are
extremely well trained and motivated to do so. It is *not* a matter of
buying the latest version of Acrobat and hitting export.

The real world result is that PDFs *usually are not accessible*.
Because usually they're produced by people who have absolutely no
training in producing PDFs for on-screen use.

Even if they were produced perfectly and they were all accessible, I
still wouldn't recommend using PDFs instead of HTML. Fundamentally
PDFs are not web documents! They can be delivered via the web but they
are not web pages and should never be treated that way. PDFs introduce
a huge range of usability issues and the short version is they really
annoy the average user and confuse the heck out of less savvy users.

I cannot see any logical reason for the advice to your client to go
over to mostly-PDF. I would suggest finding out why they suggested it
and address the underlying issue. eg. if they want the pages to print
well, build a print stylesheet. If they want the page to be updated
frequently, train someone to do the HTML/use the CMS. If they don't
want prices getting indexed by search engines, use the appropriate
meta tags.

If they're desperate to control print, then they could *add* PDFs but
they shouldn't ditch the HTML.

cheers,
Ben

--
--- http://weblog.200ok.com.au/
--- The future has arrived; it's just not
--- evenly distributed. - William Gibson


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