RE: [WSG] Who's A Front End Developer?

2007-07-06 Thread Richard Williams
For me, a front-end developer fulfills the role of the glue between the
designer and the back-end developer.

Accordingly, the FE developer needs a high-level understanding of both the
designer and BE developer's skills.

In the real world the FE developer may get his/her hands dirty with a bit of
both as well as FE stuff.

According to Mike Davies (front-end developer at Yahoo! and Ex technical
lead developer for Legal  General) at the WSG London meeting in February
explained that the poor performance of LG's site in no small part stemmed
from developers wanting to move on up the ladder from FE development to the
serious stuff of BE development. Consequently, no one was an expert in FE
development (web standards and accessibility) and as a result their
website's economic performance suffered greatly.

The point he made was that developers, in general, don't want to specialise
in FE development, because they can earn more doing the BE stuff.

What LG discovered was that by doing a decent FE job it greatly improved
their ROI.

Listen to his account of the LG process here:
http://muffinresearch.co.uk/wsg/audio/07/02/28/mike.mp3

Mike said after the LG project he made a deliberate decision to specialise
in FE development, and took on the Yahoo job to do just that.

Personally, I think designers, FE and BE developers need to accept and
appreciate the other disciplines and stop being so precious about their own
set of skills - team work guys. :)

On a practical note, general qualifications can give a broad knowledge of
the different areas, but we all need to specialise, which is where CPD comes
into play.

And that's where I see the dutch having made a bold/couragous move in doing
what they've started. Let's observe and learn.

Richard Williams

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Re: [WSG] Who's A Front End Developer?

2007-07-05 Thread Paul Novitski



The datastore/backend guys will just
make sure the data is in a nice format (JSON or something) and that
its accessible from a url - their job is done my friends.



Ouch.  For me this points up the absurdity of the demarcation between 
front-end and back-end developer.  Unless each of us understands the 
whole sweep of it we're going to make stupid mistakes that will make 
everyone else in our team miserable.  Spare me, please, from working 
with someone who believes that their job is done at the boundary of 
any particular technology or technique.  In my experience everything 
in this field is too interconnected for that kind of separation to 
work.  It drives me crazy when graphic designers hand me one 
Photoshop mockup per page and figure that their job of designing the 
site is done.  To do a decent job, a web graphic designer needs to 
understand CSS which requires familiarity with HTML markup and 
browser technology, and it helps hugely if they understand the 
economies of scripting, the logic of database queries, and the 
fundamentals of many other technologies that superficially have 
nothing to do with graphic design.  Just as a good print designer 
needs to understand papers, inks, and printing technologies, a web 
graphic designer needs to know the stuff that the page is made of in 
order to make competent decisions.  Looking at it from the back end, 
there are convoluted handshakes between MySQL and PHP and HTML and 
JavaScript and CSS, and bingo you're doing graphic design.  Even if 
we don't do all the work ourselves we have to maintain a healthy 
appreciation for the limits, requirements, and efficiencies of all 
the technologies in the daisy chain if we're going to produce really 
great work.


Of course there's a difference between 'having an understanding' of a 
technology and actually practicing it.  I'm familiar with many of the 
capabilities of Photoshop, for example, even while I acknowledge that 
I'm a novice user and pass the fine work along to my partner the 
graphics expert.  But when I'm engineering the back end of a 
project my consciousness has to extend all the way to the very 
front or we'll end up with something that's lame at best, broken at 
worst, a disappointment to the client, and expensive to fix.


I appreciate the efforts of the folks in the Netherlands to come up 
with some standards of expertise by which they can judge a worker's 
competence, but the front-end/back-end model that's driven this 
discussion waves warning flags for me.  I think it's a potentially 
harmful paradigm if formalized into job categories with impermeable boundaries.


Did anyone but me read A.E. van Vogt's Voyage of the Space Beagle as 
a kid?  Specialists are handy appliances, but give me a nexialist any 
day if you want a brilliant solution.


Regards,

Paul
__

Paul Novitski
Juniper Webcraft Ltd.
http://juniperwebcraft.com 




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Re: [WSG] Who's A Front End Developer?

2007-07-05 Thread Barney Carroll
I think the question should not be which languages are you good at?, 
but what you have comprehensive awareness of. I'm also inclined to 
believe that's what ppk is likely to be focussing on - because just as 
much as he has a great sense of design and is one of javascript's 
greatest, his greatest focus has always been standards advocacy and 
spreading healthy attitudes in web dev.


As so many people have pointed out, simply saying you've got good 
working knowledge of css and php is fine for a job - and as things to be 
demanded for a specific gig those are useful terms - but as career 
attributes they're simply no good because of the failure of such 
statements to address the constantly evolving media and the world around 
them.


I would classify myself as a front-ender, but not because of my focus on 
design work - or my greater aptitude in ecma, css and markup compared to 
my php, asp or python. I think the greater qualification comes in 
standards awareness and interest/participation in the development of 
standards-concerned technologies. Given time I can learn pretty much any 
code, but what 'back-enders' value about me at work is not my clear 
understanding of the overflow property - it's the fact that I'll know 
when and why a particular browser will exhibit certain behaviour and how 
to fix it; or why a navigation system based on images without alt text 
is criminal; or how to ensure complete accessibility in a pre-made site 
while still having everything look the same.


Likewise what back-enders have that I appreciate most is the ability to 
tell me why my sql databases aren't updating; why my server's ground to 
a halt; how I can ensure user security on a cms; etc.


I reckon it's far more to do with practical ability and healthy thinking 
than literal knowledge.



Lucien Stals wrote:

That's interesting.

I wonder how many of us are in a similar position?

In my role, I work in a multimedia group of 5. (1 illustrator, 1
graphic designer, 1 multi media developer who does some front end web
stuff, our manager and myself).

I maintain many static web pages on our public site, and develop new
stuff which is mainly static html, but also develop some php/mysql stuff
and some javascript. The web sites server is maintained by the IT
department.

I've also recently become the maintainer of our intranet server
(win2003 server which I know next to nothing about). This involves
maintaining the server itself as well as  maintenance of applications on
the server and some development in php/mysql.

What do the rest of you do? How many of us *don't* have to be a
jack-of-all-trades?

Lucien.


Lucien Stals
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


On Thu, Jul 5, 2007 at 10:41 AM, Kevin Futter
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 

On 5/7/07 9:37 AM, Lucien Stals [EMAIL PROTECTED]

wrote:

I think I missed something in the original question. The front

end

part. Somebody else categorised some of the technologies as back

end

and that got me wondering.

When I said I was a web developer, I meant back end development. So
what is front end development? DHTML? Anything not related to

visual

design but *not* talking to a back end system? (as opposed to front

end

design)

Developing for the web is such a mixed bag, I just can't see an

easy

way to categorise things into dev/design or front end / back end.

I like Bruce's suggestion for a break down, but he too acknowledges

the

grey area around development. And I'd say that once you touch the

db,

you are definitely back end, not front end.

In the end I guess I question the validity of defining developers

in

terms of front end and back end. Can we just stick to designers and
developers?

Lucien.

I work in a school as part of a team of 3 IT people, so I need to be

able to

do it all -  from configuring the server to developing the databases

to

designing the interfaces to building the back- end to crafting the

HTML/CSS

to coding the JavaScript where necessary. So, roles like that do

indeed

exist, especially in small businesses or where this kind of work is

not core

business. Am I an expert practitioner of all these disciplines and
technologies? Of course not, but I get the job done, and know how to

find

out what I need to know. Your biggest asset in this game is your
problem- solving ability, regardless of how you define your role. For

the

record, I usually describe myself as a 'web developer', but my

school

defines my role as 'IT Support'. (I'm also responsible for my share

of IT

support and staff training too, so it doesn't even end there!)

Kevin 



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Re: [WSG] Who's A Front End Developer?

2007-07-05 Thread Susan Grossman



I would classify myself as a front-ender, but not because of my focus on
design work - or my greater aptitude in ecma, css and markup compared to
my php, asp or python. I think the greater qualification comes in
standards awareness and interest/participation in the development of
standards-concerned technologies.




Just 2cents fromt he application world.  I've been working with enterprise
web applications for several years and the distinctions are actually pretty
clear in our RFP's

I work as an Information Architect, UI Designer, a Web Designer, a Human
Factors Engineer and/or a Functional Analyst.

The Front End Developers do the jsp, struts, ruby, set up of
CVS/Perforce/Whatever, etc.

The back-enders (programmers) do database, hibernate, etc.

My end product is OO templates for the Front End Developers to use, with
the html/css  in a format meant to be served as headers, footer,
navigational division (for role based presentation) so that they only deal
with the content areas once the template parts are in the system.  I also do
all the wireframes, on one end and the html, css,  js, and a fully working
prototype that's used for reviews and by QA.


Susan


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Re: [WSG] Who's A Front End Developer?

2007-07-05 Thread Sander Aarts

Hi,

I'm quite amazed by the somewhat nervous responses of people who are 
afraid of 'strict seperation', cause there is no such thing and there 
won't be any just because you use the term front-end developer'. Of 
course front-end developers need some basic knowledge of other areas of 
web development. That's obvious and not different from any other 
profession. You always need to know things about the other professions 
in your branche. If only for the fact that you need to know when to ask 
these colleagues for advise. But that doesn't mean it's not okay to have 
front-end specialists or to have a proper name for these specialists.


In too many companies front-end development is still treated as the 
mentaly retarded little brother of programming. 'Something all 
programmers can do' (or designers for that matter). It is not! Well, at 
least not if want to do a decent job. By giving it its own name, 
people/companies will start to see that it's a specialism of its own. 
Even though the exact boundaries can be very blurry.


cheers,
Sander




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[WSG] Who's A Front End Developer?

2007-07-04 Thread John Horner
I'm interested in the front end part of the Dutch group's name.
 
We were having a discussion at work the other day about which skills you
should have to have in order to call yourself a web developer.
 
I just finished a project which required knowledge of the following:
 
* HTML
* CSS
* Javascript
* XML
* Perl or PHP
* SQL
 
but what's the minimum set of skills we think someone should have to
call themselves a web developer?
 
You could make a case, I'm sure, for just HTML and CSS. You develop
(non-interactive) web pages with HTML and CSS. Javascript is really a
programming language. Should AJAX be listed seperately?
 
However, if that's enough to call yourself a web developer, what do we
call someone with all the skills above?
 

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Re: [WSG] Who's A Front End Developer?

2007-07-04 Thread Lucien Stals
It's an interesting question. 

I don't like titles, but when I got my business cards printed up for my
current job, I had them call me a web developer because I have the
skills you listed. (And since AJAX requires knowledge of Javascript and
XML, or some other transport format, then I'd say it falls into the
developer category.)

I specifically don't call myself a web designer because my design
skills are far short of what I would expect from a designer. (And I'm
talking about designer strictly in the context of visual/graphic
design.) I know my way around Fireworks, and I've even got a degree in
fine arts (sculpture) under my belt. But I've worked with designers, and
I know I'm not one. 

Obviously many people in the web field wear different hats, and most of
us don't comfortably fit into a clean and clear definition of designer
or developer. I've done enough jobs where I did all the design work as
well. They would have been better, and more expensive, if there had been
a proper designer involved.

But I know, and like, the code cutting side of the web. So I call
myself a developer.

Lucien.


Lucien Stals
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

 On Wed, Jul 4, 2007 at  4:55 PM, John Horner
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I'm interested in the front end part of the Dutch group's name.
  
 We were having a discussion at work the other day about which skills
you
 should have to have in order to call yourself a web developer.
  
 I just finished a project which required knowledge of the following:
  
 * HTML
 * CSS
 * Javascript
 * XML
 * Perl or PHP
 * SQL
  
 but what's the minimum set of skills we think someone should have to
 call themselves a web developer?
  
 You could make a case, I'm sure, for just HTML and CSS. You develop
 (non- interactive) web pages with HTML and CSS. Javascript is really
a
 programming language. Should AJAX be listed seperately?
  
 However, if that's enough to call yourself a web developer, what do
we
 call someone with all the skills above?
  
 


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Re: [WSG] Who's A Front End Developer?

2007-07-04 Thread lisa herrod

hey John :)

I think highlighting AJAX as a technology would be like highlighting POSH.

But that's an interesting point to raise, because there are technical
skill sets and methodological/ philosophical approaches to applying
technical skills. I think this is perhaps where skills like AJAX,
standards, semantics, accessibility and POSH (as much as I do
*dislike* that term) fit in.


Lisa



On 04/07/07, John Horner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



I'm interested in the front end part of the Dutch group's name.

We were having a discussion at work the other day about which skills you
should have to have in order to call yourself a web developer.

I just finished a project which required knowledge of the following:

* HTML
* CSS
* Javascript
* XML
* Perl or PHP
* SQL

but what's the minimum set of skills we think someone should have to call
themselves a web developer?

You could make a case, I'm sure, for just HTML and CSS. You develop
(non-interactive) web pages with HTML and CSS. Javascript is really a
programming language. Should AJAX be listed seperately?

However, if that's enough to call yourself a web developer, what do we call
someone with all the skills above?


=
 The information contained in this email and any attachment is confidential
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Re: [WSG] Who's A Front End Developer?

2007-07-04 Thread James Jeffery

Extensive knowledge on HTML, CSS and Javascript would be what i call a
'front end-developer'.
But even then that isn't enough, front-end developers should have alot of
knowledge in the
Accessiblity and Usability, and if they are can design aswell, thats all the
better.
When i say extensive, i mean understanding the ins and outs of the above not
just
enough to get you by.

PHP and SQL are back-end, i dont know of many companies who will employ 1
guy
to do all the jobs. I had the unfortunate job 2 years ago, a company i was
doing work
exerience at employed me for £100 a week and 10% on the overall price for
the job,
which was poor, and i had to do everything. I walked out within 3 days, they
expected
me to complete full blown systems within days.

I know all of the above, apart from perl, ive never used it, i doubt i will
need to, but i
wouldn't advertise the fact i can do 'ALL' the jobs on my own in the same
time it
would take a team of developers. To much hard work, so little money.

Theres my 2 pence.



On 7/4/07, lisa herrod [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


hey John :)

I think highlighting AJAX as a technology would be like highlighting POSH.

But that's an interesting point to raise, because there are technical
skill sets and methodological/ philosophical approaches to applying
technical skills. I think this is perhaps where skills like AJAX,
standards, semantics, accessibility and POSH (as much as I do
*dislike* that term) fit in.


Lisa



On 04/07/07, John Horner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


 I'm interested in the front end part of the Dutch group's name.

 We were having a discussion at work the other day about which skills you
 should have to have in order to call yourself a web developer.

 I just finished a project which required knowledge of the following:

 * HTML
 * CSS
 * Javascript
 * XML
 * Perl or PHP
 * SQL

 but what's the minimum set of skills we think someone should have to
call
 themselves a web developer?

 You could make a case, I'm sure, for just HTML and CSS. You develop
 (non-interactive) web pages with HTML and CSS. Javascript is really a
 programming language. Should AJAX be listed seperately?

 However, if that's enough to call yourself a web developer, what do we
call
 someone with all the skills above?



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 this email or any attachments. If you
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 virus free. Before opening any
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 resupplying any email and attachments.

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Re: [WSG] Who's A Front End Developer?

2007-07-04 Thread Christian Montoya

On 7/3/07, John Horner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


I just finished a project which required knowledge of the following:

* HTML
* CSS
* Javascript
* XML
* Perl or PHP
* SQL

but what's the minimum set of skills we think someone should have to call
themselves a web developer?

You could make a case, I'm sure, for just HTML and CSS. You develop
(non-interactive) web pages with HTML and CSS. Javascript is really a
programming language. Should AJAX be listed seperately?

However, if that's enough to call yourself a web developer, what do we call
someone with all the skills above?


The company I will be working at in the fall separates the back-end
developers (PHP  MySQL, ASP, Perl) from the front-end developers
(HTML, CSS, Javascript). The front-end developers might have to know
some back-end languages to a degree, but you really can do a lot with
just HTML, CSS, Javascript, and XML.

--
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com


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Re: [WSG] Who's A Front End Developer?

2007-07-04 Thread Sander Aarts


John Horner schreef:

I'm interested in the front end part of the Dutch group's name.
 
We were having a discussion at work the other day about which skills 
you should have to have in order to call yourself a web developer.
 
I just finished a project which required knowledge of the following:
 
* HTML

* CSS
* Javascript
* XML
* Perl or PHP
* SQL
 
but what's the minimum set of skills we think someone should have to 
call themselves a web developer?


I guess the minimum would be one of those from your list (although there 
are many more languages/databases can be used of course). As soon as 
you're working with code for the web, being either markup or 
scripting/programming, you may call yourself a web developer in my 
opinion. In the Netherlands 'web developer' is mostly used for back-end 
developers though, of for people who do both front-end and back-end.
As long as it's a free profession, knowledge about best practices and 
web standards are not really required. They are of course if you want to 
be a good front-end developer. But if you built IE-only sites in a 1996 
manner or just all Flash sites, you're still a web developer.
On the other hand... if you're an expert in accessibility or usability, 
but you don't work on the code itself, you're not a developer in my 
opinion, but an architect, consultant or interaction designer. In most 
cases there's a great overlap though.


I use the term 'web designer' for visual and interaction designers 
working for the web and 'webmaster' for those who are responsible for 
maintaining the content.


To sum things up, for me a front-end developer uses at least one of the 
following techniques:

- (X)HTML
- CSS
- JavaScript (client side)
- Flash (?)

cheers,
Sander



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Re: [WSG] Who's A Front End Developer?

2007-07-04 Thread Rimantas Liubertas

...

 To sum things up, for me a front-end developer uses at least one of the
following techniques:
 - (X)HTML
 - CSS
 - JavaScript (client side)
 - Flash (?)


I think that even for front-end developer some level of the knowledge
about web servers and HTTP is essential. And cross-browser
development, of course.


Regards,
Rimantas
--
http://rimantas.com/


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Re: [WSG] Who's A Front End Developer?

2007-07-04 Thread Sander Aarts


Rimantas Liubertas schreef:

...

 To sum things up, for me a front-end developer uses at least one of the
following techniques:
 - (X)HTML
 - CSS
 - JavaScript (client side)
 - Flash (?)


I think that even for front-end developer some level of the knowledge
about web servers and HTTP is essential. And cross-browser
development, of course.


Only if you want to be a better front-end developer, maybe.

cheers,
Sander


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Re: [WSG] Who's A Front End Developer?

2007-07-04 Thread Bruce
This is an interesting discussion. I find I cannot/don't want to call myself a 
web designer, and have been using the term developer because of the fact I am 
more into and better at php, mysql, xml and the cms aspect than design.

Designer- appearance, structure including web standards layout.
Developer- the mechanics of the site, publishing it (cms), programming up to a 
poficiency level (grey area), and development of xml, php, databases etc..
Programmer - works with a major programming language at a very high proficiency 
level and can program from scratch.

I consider web standards and the cms the foundation that all three build upon.

Bruce P
bkdesign

  - Original Message - 
  From: John Horner 
  To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org 
  Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2007 2:55 AM
  Subject: [WSG] Who's A Front End Developer?


  I'm interested in the front end part of the Dutch group's name.

  We were having a discussion at work the other day about which skills you 
should have to have in order to call yourself a web developer.

  I just finished a project which required knowledge of the following:

  * HTML
  * CSS
  * Javascript
  * XML
  * Perl or PHP
  * SQL

  but what's the minimum set of skills we think someone should have to call 
themselves a web developer?

  You could make a case, I'm sure, for just HTML and CSS. You develop 
(non-interactive) web pages with HTML and CSS. Javascript is really a 
programming language. Should AJAX be listed seperately?

  However, if that's enough to call yourself a web developer, what do we call 
someone with all the skills above?

  = 
  The information contained in this email and any attachment is confidential 
and may contain legally privileged 
  or copyright material. It is intended only for the use of the addressee(s). 
If you are not the intended recipient 
  of this email, you are not permitted to disseminate, distribute or copy this 
email or any attachments. If you 
  have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and 
delete this email from your system.
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Re: [WSG] Who's A Front End Developer?

2007-07-04 Thread Lucien Stals
I think I missed something in the original question. The front end
part. Somebody else categorised some of the technologies as back end
and that got me wondering.

When I said I was a web developer, I meant back end development. So
what is front end development? DHTML? Anything not related to visual
design but *not* talking to a back end system? (as opposed to front end
design)

Developing for the web is such a mixed bag, I just can't see an easy
way to categorise things into dev/design or front end / back end.

I like Bruce's suggestion for a break down, but he too acknowledges the
grey area around development. And I'd say that once you touch the db,
you are definitely back end, not front end.

In the end I guess I question the validity of defining developers in
terms of front end and back end. Can we just stick to designers and
developers?

Lucien.


Lucien Stals
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

 On Wed, Jul 4, 2007 at 10:57 PM, Bruce [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 This is an interesting discussion. I find I cannot/don't want to call
myself 
 a web designer, and have been using the term developer because of the
fact I 
 am more into and better at php, mysql, xml and the cms aspect than
design.
 
 Designer-  appearance, structure including web standards layout.
 Developer-  the mechanics of the site, publishing it (cms),
programming up to 
 a poficiency level (grey area), and development of xml, php,
databases etc..
 Programmer -  works with a major programming language at a very high

 proficiency level and can program from scratch.
 
 I consider web standards and the cms the foundation that all three
build 
 upon.
 
 Bruce P
 bkdesign
 
   -  Original Message -  
   From: John Horner 
   To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org 
   Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2007 2:55 AM
   Subject: [WSG] Who's A Front End Developer?
 
 
   I'm interested in the front end part of the Dutch group's name.
 
   We were having a discussion at work the other day about which
skills you 
 should have to have in order to call yourself a web developer.
 
   I just finished a project which required knowledge of the
following:
 
   * HTML
   * CSS
   * Javascript
   * XML
   * Perl or PHP
   * SQL
 
   but what's the minimum set of skills we think someone should have
to call 
 themselves a web developer?
 
   You could make a case, I'm sure, for just HTML and CSS. You develop

 (non- interactive) web pages with HTML and CSS. Javascript is really
a 
 programming language. Should AJAX be listed seperately?
 
   However, if that's enough to call yourself a web developer, what do
we 
 call someone with all the skills above?
 
  
=

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confidential 
 and may contain legally privileged 
   or copyright material. It is intended only for the use of the 
 addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient 
   of this email, you are not permitted to disseminate, distribute or
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 this email or any attachments. If you 
   have received this message in error, please notify the sender
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 virus free. Before opening any
   attachment you should check for viruses. The ABC's liability is
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 resupplying any email and attachments.
  
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RE: [WSG] Who's A Front End Developer?

2007-07-04 Thread John Horner
 
 i wouldn't advertise the fact i can do 'ALL' the jobs on my own in the
same time it
 would take a team of developers. To much hard work, so little money. 

That's an interesting point in itself. Should you try to be a
one-stop-shop? It's certainly a lot easier for the client, but how
good can anyone's skills be if spread over five or six disciplines? I
speak as someone who discovered the double field in MySQL only last
week.

I'm also thinking a web developer needs to be competent in at least
one high-end graphics tool, probably Photoshop by default. When a
graphic designer passes you a PSD file with 47 layers in various groups,
each with layer styles and featuring fonts you don't have, you need to
be able to sort it out.

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The information contained in this email and any attachment is confidential and
may contain legally privileged or copyright material.   It is intended only for
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Re: [WSG] Who's A Front End Developer?

2007-07-04 Thread Seona Bellamy

On 05/07/07, Lucien Stals [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


I like Bruce's suggestion for a break down, but he too acknowledges the
grey area around development. And I'd say that once you touch the db,
you are definitely back end, not front end.

In the end I guess I question the validity of defining developers in
terms of front end and back end. Can we just stick to designers and
developers?



I must admit, I tend to categorise work as front-end or back-end based on
whether or not a database (or some other data repository, such as complex
XML files) is involved. As soon as you're doing anything more than a
static web page, it's moved into back-end territory.

My definition of designer vs developer is these days coloured by the company
I'm working for. The designers are the people who come up with the ideas and
the layouts and the graphics. The developers are the people who write code,
be that (X)HTML, CSS, JavaScript, ColdFusion, PHP, etc.

And as with everything in this industry, there are a lot of grey areas in
both sets of definitions. Some of our designers, for example, are starting
to learn a bit about (X)HTML and CSS and are providing us with basic style
sheets along with the design proofs so that we at least start with all of
the colours and sizes that they had in mind. We then tweak them as we work
to play around with positioning and all of the other complex stuff.

Just my thoughts, anyway. :)

Cheers,

Seona.


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Re: [WSG] Who's A Front End Developer?

2007-07-04 Thread dwain

Seona Bellamy wrote:
My definition of designer vs developer is these days coloured by the 
company I'm working for. The designers are the people who come up with 
the ideas and the layouts and the graphics. The developers are the 
people who write code, be that (X)HTML, CSS, JavaScript, ColdFusion, 
PHP, etc.
although i would like to think of myself as a developer, i guess i'm 
really a designer.  i write (x)html and css, but have little or no 
experience with php, mysql or javascript.  so i write mostly static 
pages, but the clientèle i write for don't need much in a dynamic web 
site; however, that should not prevent me from learning php, javascript 
and mysql.


so i guess you could say i'm a front-end developer due to certain 
lacking skills to make me a full fledged developer.


dwain

--
Dwain Alford
web:  http://www.studiokdd.com

The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
for his inner impulse must find suitable expression.  Kandinsky



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Re: [WSG] Who's A Front End Developer?

2007-07-04 Thread Kevin Futter
On 5/7/07 9:37 AM, Lucien Stals [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I think I missed something in the original question. The front end
 part. Somebody else categorised some of the technologies as back end
 and that got me wondering.
 
 When I said I was a web developer, I meant back end development. So
 what is front end development? DHTML? Anything not related to visual
 design but *not* talking to a back end system? (as opposed to front end
 design)
 
 Developing for the web is such a mixed bag, I just can't see an easy
 way to categorise things into dev/design or front end / back end.
 
 I like Bruce's suggestion for a break down, but he too acknowledges the
 grey area around development. And I'd say that once you touch the db,
 you are definitely back end, not front end.
 
 In the end I guess I question the validity of defining developers in
 terms of front end and back end. Can we just stick to designers and
 developers?
 
 Lucien.

I work in a school as part of a team of 3 IT people, so I need to be able to
do it all - from configuring the server to developing the databases to
designing the interfaces to building the back-end to crafting the HTML/CSS
to coding the JavaScript where necessary. So, roles like that do indeed
exist, especially in small businesses or where this kind of work is not core
business. Am I an expert practitioner of all these disciplines and
technologies? Of course not, but I get the job done, and know how to find
out what I need to know. Your biggest asset in this game is your
problem-solving ability, regardless of how you define your role. For the
record, I usually describe myself as a 'web developer', but my school
defines my role as 'IT Support'. (I'm also responsible for my share of IT
support and staff training too, so it doesn't even end there!)

Kevin 

-- 
Kevin Futter
Webmaster, St. Bernard's College
http://www.sbc.melb.catholic.edu.au/




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Re: [WSG] Who's A Front End Developer?

2007-07-04 Thread Seona Bellamy

On 05/07/07, dwain [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Seona Bellamy wrote:
 My definition of designer vs developer is these days coloured by the
 company I'm working for. The designers are the people who come up with
 the ideas and the layouts and the graphics. The developers are the
 people who write code, be that (X)HTML, CSS, JavaScript, ColdFusion,
 PHP, etc.
although i would like to think of myself as a developer, i guess i'm
really a designer.  i write (x)html and css, but have little or no
experience with php, mysql or javascript.  so i write mostly static
pages, but the clientèle i write for don't need much in a dynamic web
site; however, that should not prevent me from learning php, javascript
and mysql.

so i guess you could say i'm a front-end developer due to certain
lacking skills to make me a full fledged developer.



That's probably a fair enough assessment, although I don't think you should
compare being a front-end developer to being a fully-fledged developer as
if the former were necessarily a bad thing. As you say, if your clients
don't demand much beyond static pages, then that is what you are going to
build.

On the other hand, I do agree that it shouldn't prevent you from learning
the other side of things, if for no other reason than that you'll be
prepared if a client comes along who DOES want more than a static site. And,
of course, you'd also have the option to try upselling some of your existing
clients. ;)

Cheers,

Seona.


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Re: [WSG] Who's A Front End Developer?

2007-07-04 Thread Seona Bellamy

On 05/07/07, John Horner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


 i wouldn't advertise the fact i can do 'ALL' the jobs on my own in the
same time it
 would take a team of developers. To much hard work, so little money.

That's an interesting point in itself. Should you try to be a
one-stop-shop? It's certainly a lot easier for the client, but how
good can anyone's skills be if spread over five or six disciplines? I
speak as someone who discovered the double field in MySQL only last
week.



That's a really good point. Having worked for myself for a number of years,
trying to be a one-stop-shop, I can vouch for the fact that it's almost
impossible to be great at everything. This was highlighted for me when I
started subbing out the design work to a graphic artist friend of mine. I
tend to sum up my skills these days as I can make sites that look good, but
a trained graphic artist can make sites that look WOW! :)

I do agree that it is important to be able to find your way around a
graphics program or two, both so that you can deal with the designs your
graphics person hands you and so that you can speak the same language as
them when you're talking about a job. *grin* Nothing like not understanding
the jargon to open the door to mistakes.

Cheers,

Seona.


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Re: [WSG] Who's A Front End Developer?

2007-07-04 Thread Lucien Stals
That's interesting.

I wonder how many of us are in a similar position?

In my role, I work in a multimedia group of 5. (1 illustrator, 1
graphic designer, 1 multi media developer who does some front end web
stuff, our manager and myself).

I maintain many static web pages on our public site, and develop new
stuff which is mainly static html, but also develop some php/mysql stuff
and some javascript. The web sites server is maintained by the IT
department.

I've also recently become the maintainer of our intranet server
(win2003 server which I know next to nothing about). This involves
maintaining the server itself as well as  maintenance of applications on
the server and some development in php/mysql.

What do the rest of you do? How many of us *don't* have to be a
jack-of-all-trades?

Lucien.


Lucien Stals
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

 On Thu, Jul 5, 2007 at 10:41 AM, Kevin Futter
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 
 On 5/7/07 9:37 AM, Lucien Stals [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
 
 I think I missed something in the original question. The front
end
 part. Somebody else categorised some of the technologies as back
end
 and that got me wondering.
 
 When I said I was a web developer, I meant back end development. So
 what is front end development? DHTML? Anything not related to
visual
 design but *not* talking to a back end system? (as opposed to front
end
 design)
 
 Developing for the web is such a mixed bag, I just can't see an
easy
 way to categorise things into dev/design or front end / back end.
 
 I like Bruce's suggestion for a break down, but he too acknowledges
the
 grey area around development. And I'd say that once you touch the
db,
 you are definitely back end, not front end.
 
 In the end I guess I question the validity of defining developers
in
 terms of front end and back end. Can we just stick to designers and
 developers?
 
 Lucien.
 
 I work in a school as part of a team of 3 IT people, so I need to be
able to
 do it all -  from configuring the server to developing the databases
to
 designing the interfaces to building the back- end to crafting the
HTML/CSS
 to coding the JavaScript where necessary. So, roles like that do
indeed
 exist, especially in small businesses or where this kind of work is
not core
 business. Am I an expert practitioner of all these disciplines and
 technologies? Of course not, but I get the job done, and know how to
find
 out what I need to know. Your biggest asset in this game is your
 problem- solving ability, regardless of how you define your role. For
the
 record, I usually describe myself as a 'web developer', but my
school
 defines my role as 'IT Support'. (I'm also responsible for my share
of IT
 support and staff training too, so it doesn't even end there!)
 
 Kevin 


Swinburne University of Technology
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Re: [WSG] Who's A Front End Developer?

2007-07-04 Thread Seona Bellamy

On 05/07/07, Lucien Stals [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


What do the rest of you do? How many of us *don't* have to be a
jack-of-all-trades?



I guess that partly depends how you define all trades. Now that I no
longer have to do graphical work, I simply consider myself a web developer.
That said, this includes working with (X)HTML, CSS, JavaScript when I can't
avoid it, ColdFusion, and MS SQL. So some people might consider that being a
bit cross-trade, if you like, because I'm working with both front and and
back end technologies. Because of where I started, though, I see it as being
able to concentrate on what I do best and leaving the pretties to someone
else. ;)

~Seona.


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Re: [WSG] Who's A Front End Developer?

2007-07-04 Thread dwain

Seona Bellamy wrote:
On 05/07/07, *dwain* [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Seona Bellamy wrote:
 My definition of designer vs developer is these days coloured by the
 company I'm working for. The designers are the people who come
up with
 the ideas and the layouts and the graphics. The developers are the
 people who write code, be that (X)HTML, CSS, JavaScript, ColdFusion,
 PHP, etc.
although i would like to think of myself as a developer, i guess i'm
really a designer.  i write (x)html and css, but have little or no
experience with php, mysql or javascript.  so i write mostly static
pages, but the clientèle i write for don't need much in a dynamic web
site; however, that should not prevent me from learning php,
javascript
and mysql.

so i guess you could say i'm a front-end developer due to certain
lacking skills to make me a full fledged developer.


That's probably a fair enough assessment, although I don't think you 
should compare being a front-end developer to being a fully-fledged 
developer as if the former were necessarily a bad thing. 
i hope that i didn't imply that a front end developer is less of a 
developer that a full fledged developer.  i guess what i meant is that 
i'm not a well rounded developer yet to be a full fledged developer 
(front and back end).


cheers,
dwain

--
Dwain Alford
web:  http://www.studiokdd.com

The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
for his inner impulse must find suitable expression.  Kandinsky



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Re: [WSG] Who's A Front End Developer?

2007-07-04 Thread Sander Aarts


Lucien Stals schreef:

What do the rest of you do? How many of us *don't* have to be a
jack-of-all-trades?


Me.

I work at a fairly big company (100+ employees, about half of which 
build websites, other departments focus on SEO, (email) marketing and 
trainings related to internet). I only deal with front-end stuff these 
days: XHTML, CSS and JavaScript. The team I'm in consists of 1 other 
front-end developer, 3 visual designers and 1 interaction designer. I 
build static templates that are later implemented into CMSs (Sitecore / 
Smartsite) by others.


cheers,
Sander



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Re: [WSG] Who's A Front End Developer?

2007-07-04 Thread Karl Lurman

Javascript is really starting to move into the realm of
software/application developer. Currently a bleeding edge javascript
programmer has to have extensive knowledge of the entire 'web
platform'. This includes: server/datastore programming, sound
understanding of client/server architecture, standards compliant
content delivery, client end compatibility, event driven and
accessible user interface design/implementation. And the list goes
on...

Now, frankly thats a kick-ass javascript programmer. More than likely,
you don't need him - let alone can afford him or can hire him as he's
hired already by Yahoo or Google or something... You want someone who
knows how to implement a graphic designers ideas into a static,
browser compatible and hopefully standard semantic markup with a good
separtion of presentation from logic. Anything else is a bonus -  a
bit of experience with javascript (especially use of a framework like
Prototype or Mootools), some experience with Flash is also nice if you
are into that sort of thing too. Thats about the level of javascript I
believe you need to from a front-end developer.

I think though, eventually your front-end developer isn't going to
need to know Javascript inside and out. They probably won't need to
have such an extensive knowledge of the 'web platform' either.
Instead, all the work of on frameworks and libraries will reduce the
requirement to know 'everything'. The datastore/backend guys will just
make sure the data is in a nice format (JSON or something) and that
its accessible from a url - their job is done my friends. User
interfaces will probably be designed using IDE's (Check out Tibco if
you don't believe me) They will be accessible by default due to the
use of better mark-up languages with richer widgets and components.
Browsers will be compliant to standards and code will be portable
between browser and desktop (We can dream can't we?!) In fact, it will
be just like Windows application programming - man how boring!

Karl


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Re: [WSG] Who's A Front End Developer?

2007-07-04 Thread Michael MD

requirement to know 'everything'. The datastore/backend guys will just
make sure the data is in a nice format (JSON or something) and that
its accessible from a url - their job is done my friends. User


people who know about something JSON (or any other such method of 
trasnsporting data between the server and the client) are likely to be 
people who do a bit of both front and back-end stuff - the lines ARE 
blurred...
how many datastore/backend guys would know what JSON is (or see any point 
using it) if they have never written client-side javascript?


I think it is risky to seperate these roles too much - each should have a 
least a little understanding of the other...





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