RE: [WSG] a question concering shopping cart function (somewhat usability issue I think)

2008-05-22 Thread Michael MD

Accessibility is really not that difficult to put in place - I also believe
as professionals providing web design / development services that this
should not be an addon that we charge but part of what the client should
expect too get - imagine a builder charging you to make your house
compliant. :) I have a strong belief that here in Australia a lot of
websites are going to be tested on discrimination grounds - do you want to
be the one bearing this as the provider?


Compliant? 

I see it (and try to explain it) in much more more obvious way 
- as not wanting to exclude people ...
... for any business locking out potential customers is bad! 








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RE: [WSG] a question concering shopping cart function (somewhat usability issue I think)

2008-05-22 Thread michael.brockington
My advice would be to try as hard as you can NOT to sell accessibility.
Sell your overall services, but mention that your competitors 'tend' to
leave their customers vulnerable to law suits, exclude customers for no
good reason, etc. Tell your clients that your competitors are literally
'sub-standard'.
If your client looks for a technical explanation of this, explain that
your work is intended to be 'forwards-compatible', tell them that you
don't expect to get any follow up work when you are finished, etc

Success in any venture requires you to be different from everyone else,
somehow.

Regards,
Mike


Mike Brockington
Web Development Specialist

www.calcResult.com
www.stephanieBlakey.me.uk
www.edinburgh.gov.uk

This message does not reflect the opinions of any entity other than the
author alone.


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[WSG] a question concering shopping cart function (somewhat usability issue I think)

2008-05-21 Thread tee
When a customer add a product to cart, which way is more user- 
friendly? Be redirect to 'my cart' page, or stay at the same page?


Right now Magento directs it to checkout page (p/s. this is the only  
eCommerce software I ever use apart from the paypal BIN button so I  
have no comparison and don't know how other carts do it), it makes  
sense to me as a customer because  this is how I expect it to be : add  
cart, process to checkout. I don't want one more click to do the  
checkout. But client thinks otherwise, he wants no redirect as he  
wants people continue shopping. Also makes sense too, though not for  
my habit, but I have learned that I don't make sites for myself :-)


I hope this is ON topic as I view it as a usability issue.

Thanks!

tee


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Re: [WSG] a question concering shopping cart function (somewhat usability issue I think)

2008-05-21 Thread walied yossry
Hi tee,

Always think as if you're there...and think about the possibilites.
In such a situation, either the user(buyer) added something to the shopping
cart, and still wants to add some other stuff, we will call this case A,
or the user(buyer) just wanted this single item case B.

I believe the ratio of case A is much higher than case B. Now, if you're
case A, what would you want to see after clicking on add to shopping
cart ?

I tried to show you the way here instead of giving you the solution. :)

cheers,


On Wed, May 21, 2008 at 9:26 AM, tee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 When a customer add a product to cart, which way is more user-friendly? Be
 redirect to 'my cart' page, or stay at the same page?

 Right now Magento directs it to checkout page (p/s. this is the only
 eCommerce software I ever use apart from the paypal BIN button so I have no
 comparison and don't know how other carts do it), it makes sense to me as a
 customer because  this is how I expect it to be : add cart, process to
 checkout. I don't want one more click to do the checkout. But client thinks
 otherwise, he wants no redirect as he wants people continue shopping. Also
 makes sense too, though not for my habit, but I have learned that I don't
 make sites for myself :-)

 I hope this is ON topic as I view it as a usability issue.

 Thanks!

 tee


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-- 
Walied Youssry
Art Director
mobile: (+2).010.1555.709
-
Do not argue with idiots,
they drag you down to their level and beat you up with their experience.
*peace* :-|


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Re: [WSG] a question concering shopping cart function (somewhat usability issue I think)

2008-05-21 Thread Andrew Maben

On May 21, 2008, at 3:44 AM, walied yossry wrote:

In such a situation, either the user(buyer) added something to the  
shopping cart, and still wants to add some other stuff, we will  
call this case A, or the user(buyer) just wanted this single item  
case B.


I think in either case a user needs confirmation that the selected  
item has indeed been added to the cart. Redirection to the cart page  
is probably the easiest (from a development perspective) and most  
reassuring (from a user perspective). I'd suggest that if you're  
going to stay on the shopping page then the user needs to see a  
message to the effect that Item X has been added to your cart with  
a Checkout link, and possibly even a list of all items in the cart  
- and even so a number of users are likely to take a side trip to the  
cart page to make sure, at least for the first purchase. Levels of  
trust in e-commerce remain low (sorry, no citations) so it's still  
very important to provide reassurance at every step.


Andrew







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Re: [WSG] a question concering shopping cart function (somewhat usability issue I think)

2008-05-21 Thread Adam Martin
I would also like to add that staying on the page when adding a product 
to the cart is quite likely going to use javascript (aka ajax) to add 
the product to the cart and inform the user that the item has been 
added. This obviously has both usability and accessibility issues.
I think Magento's approach is pretty standard and what the user expects. 
The idea that by taking someone to the cart will stop them shopping is 
in my opinion very flawed. In fact, i would argue in the opposite - in 
that if the customer merrily puts item in the cart - they will then get 
a shock when they do get too see the cart.. and give up.


Great work magento is doing... I have been playing with it since day 1.
Adam
Tweakmag.com

Andrew Maben wrote:

On May 21, 2008, at 3:44 AM, walied yossry wrote:

In such a situation, either the user(buyer) added something to the 
shopping cart, and still wants to add some other stuff, we will call 
this case A, or the user(buyer) just wanted this single item case B.


I think in either case a user needs confirmation that the selected 
item has indeed been added to the cart. Redirection to the cart page 
is probably the easiest (from a development perspective) and most 
reassuring (from a user perspective). I'd suggest that if you're going 
to stay on the shopping page then the user needs to see a message to 
the effect that Item X has been added to your cart with a Checkout 
link, and possibly even a list of all items in the cart - and even so 
a number of users are likely to take a side trip to the cart page to 
make sure, at least for the first purchase. Levels of trust in 
e-commerce remain low (sorry, no citations) so it's still very 
important to provide reassurance at every step.


Andrew






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Re: [WSG] a question concering shopping cart function (somewhat usability issue I think)

2008-05-21 Thread tee


On May 21, 2008, at 4:48 AM, Adam Martin wrote:

I would also like to add that staying on the page when adding a  
product to the cart is quite likely going to use javascript (aka  
ajax) to add the product to the cart and inform the user that the  
item has been added. This obviously has both usability and  
accessibility issues.


Hi Adam, just learned that I can easily switch on/off from the  
configuration, and the js validation has already in place. The  
transition of how the message shows up isn't very smooth (jumpy!) when  
the product to add to cart isn't at the top of the page.


I will try talk client out of it, my worry is that this is not a  
client who cares about people using other UA except the common  
browsers.  I have no success in selling accessibility when I try to  
find clients, nobody buys it, so whatever extra care I make for  
accessibility is from me, free of charge, that I have not found  
anybody appreciate it except people from this list :-) Such is a  
reality.


I think Magento's approach is pretty standard and what the user  
expects. The idea that by taking someone to the cart will stop them  
shopping is in my opinion very flawed. In fact, i would argue in the  
opposite - in that if the customer merrily puts item in the cart -  
they will then get a shock when they do get too see the cart.. and  
give up.


Great work magento is doing... I have been playing with it since day  
1.


Same here. There were times (in beta) I regretted being jumping in too  
early for this software, however, as the site's launch date gets  
closer, I feel that I have after all made a great choice talking  
client into waiting this long - I'd been building this site since day  
1. A great learning opportunity that I can also get paid.


tee


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Re: [WSG] a question concering shopping cart function (somewhat usability issue I think)

2008-05-21 Thread Adam Martin
 I have no success in selling accessibility when I try to find clients,
nobody buys it, so whatever extra care I make for accessibility is from me,
free of charge

Accessibility is really not that difficult to put in place - I also believe
as professionals providing web design / development services that this
should not be an addon that we charge but part of what the client should
expect too get - imagine a builder charging you to make your house
compliant. :) I have a strong belief that here in Australia a lot of
websites are going to be tested on discrimination grounds - do you want to
be the one bearing this as the provider?

Cheers
Adam



On Thu, May 22, 2008 at 12:56 PM, tee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


 On May 21, 2008, at 4:48 AM, Adam Martin wrote:

  I would also like to add that staying on the page when adding a product to
 the cart is quite likely going to use javascript (aka ajax) to add the
 product to the cart and inform the user that the item has been added. This
 obviously has both usability and accessibility issues.


 Hi Adam, just learned that I can easily switch on/off from the
 configuration, and the js validation has already in place. The transition of
 how the message shows up isn't very smooth (jumpy!) when the product to add
 to cart isn't at the top of the page.

 I will try talk client out of it, my worry is that this is not a client who
 cares about people using other UA except the common browsers.  I have no
 success in selling accessibility when I try to find clients, nobody buys it,
 so whatever extra care I make for accessibility is from me, free of charge,
 that I have not found anybody appreciate it except people from this list :-)
 Such is a reality.


 I think Magento's approach is pretty standard and what the user expects.
 The idea that by taking someone to the cart will stop them shopping is in my
 opinion very flawed. In fact, i would argue in the opposite - in that if the
 customer merrily puts item in the cart - they will then get a shock when
 they do get too see the cart.. and give up.

 Great work magento is doing... I have been playing with it since day 1.


 Same here. There were times (in beta) I regretted being jumping in too
 early for this software, however, as the site's launch date gets closer, I
 feel that I have after all made a great choice talking client into waiting
 this long - I'd been building this site since day 1. A great learning
 opportunity that I can also get paid.

 tee



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Re: [WSG] a question concering shopping cart function (somewhat usability issue I think)

2008-05-21 Thread Andrew Maben

On May 21, 2008, at 11:20 PM, Adam Martin wrote:

I have no success in selling accessibility when I try to find  
clients, nobody buys it


Sadly, that's probably true enough. But usability is much easier to  
sell - especially if framed in terms of you do want your customers  
to be able to find and purchase your products, don't you?


 Accessibility doesn't even have to be a part of the conversation,  
it's just a huge component of usability.


Andrew

http://www.andrewmaben.net
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

In a well designed user interface, the user should not need  
instructions.





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Re: [WSG] a question concering shopping cart function (somewhat usability issue I think)

2008-05-21 Thread Bipul Keshri
Ooooh ! What does that button do ?
If you call it CHECKOUT, the user knows what will happen. Yes, it will
take her straight to the checkout page where she can complete the
transaction.

If you call it ADD TO SHOPPING CART, you are using a metaphor here. You
are telling the user that there is a shopping cart just as there is one in
the local departmental store. You are framing the user's mental model. So
the user pictures a virtual shopping cart, where she can keep on adding
items and when she is done, she can proceed to checkout. Remember, if you
are using the label ADD TO SHOPPING CART, you should also have a
corresponding icon and an area on the top right of the page designated
and labeled as a SHOPPING CART. This area will update on each click of the
ADD ... button, so the user knows that she has added some items to the
virtual shopping cart.

-- 
Bipul Keshri
Senior Information Architect
Mobile: +91 999 910 6202



On Wed, May 21, 2008 at 11:56 AM, tee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 When a customer add a product to cart, which way is more user-friendly? Be
 redirect to 'my cart' page, or stay at the same page?

 Right now Magento directs it to checkout page (p/s. this is the only
 eCommerce software I ever use apart from the paypal BIN button so I have no
 comparison and don't know how other carts do it), it makes sense to me as a
 customer because  this is how I expect it to be : add cart, process to
 checkout. I don't want one more click to do the checkout. But client thinks
 otherwise, he wants no redirect as he wants people continue shopping. Also
 makes sense too, though not for my habit, but I have learned that I don't
 make sites for myself :-)

 I hope this is ON topic as I view it as a usability issue.

 Thanks!

 tee


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Re: [WSG] a question concering shopping cart function (somewhat usability issue I think)

2008-05-21 Thread tee


On May 21, 2008, at 8:20 PM, Adam Martin wrote:

 I have no success in selling accessibility when I try to find  
clients, nobody buys it, so whatever extra care I make for  
accessibility is from me, free of charge


Accessibility is really not that difficult to put in place - I also  
believe as professionals providing web design / development services  
that this should not be an addon that we charge but part of what the  
client should expect too get - imagine a builder charging you to  
make your house compliant. :)


Yes, I embrace that, an accessibility should be a de facto for a web  
design service.
However, a highly accessible site that can be accessed by everyone  
regardless of disability takes a lot of care and time - but this isn't  
a problem for me. When I said I have no success in selling  
accessibility, I meant apart from the basic needs (everything lined  
up, look good, accessible with mouse and keyboard), clients DO NOT  
CARE if a person uses screen reader to browse his site. We need law to  
make them CARE, but there isn't any.


Take the shopping site example, he wants the add cart not re-direct to  
cart page, because he thinks this will prevent people to shop more in  
his shop (now, this is another whole study of shopper behaviors which  
I don't know of). I can delivery what he wants on this , but you and  
other said and I knew it too, that I need to provide a confirmation  
message, and the best way to do it is using ajax /js as you suggested,  
quote your word: This obviously has both usability and accessibility  
issues..


This is what I am unable to sell. Using an ajax validation to show  
confirmation/warning message works pretty well, the only time it  
doesn't work is someone using a special UA that supports no JS/AJAX.


By 'de facto', if client said I don't want to redirect to checkout  
page. I answer with a 'no problem' because I know a JS validation can  
take care of some accessibility, and I don't need to explain anything  
to him but deliver what he wants. But if I am to be so accessible  
purist, I will say, no, we can't do that, because how if someone with  
a screen reader that has no support of JS/AJAX shops your store, and  
no redirection to the checkout page, then she may get confuse and this  
is very bad for you site. No law backs me up, and I am unable to sell  
that 'maybe, possible' 1% accessibility.  A good notion and “The power  
of the Web is in its universality. Access by everyone regardless of  
disability is an essential aspect.” won't work unless there is a law  
says so.


tee







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Re: [WSG] a question concering shopping cart function (somewhat usability issue I think)

2008-05-21 Thread Adam Martin
Take a quick look here - you will see that javascript off is actually more
common than people using safari or opera! I know this is only 1 site - but
it does have some relevance.
http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp

On Thu, May 22, 2008 at 1:54 PM, tee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


 On May 21, 2008, at 8:20 PM, Adam Martin wrote:

   I have no success in selling accessibility when I try to find clients,
 nobody buys it, so whatever extra care I make for accessibility is from me,
 free of charge

 Accessibility is really not that difficult to put in place - I also
 believe as professionals providing web design / development services that
 this should not be an addon that we charge but part of what the client
 should expect too get - imagine a builder charging you to make your house
 compliant. :)


 Yes, I embrace that, an accessibility should be a de facto for a web design
 service.
 However, a highly accessible site that can be accessed by everyone
 regardless of disability takes a lot of care and time - but this isn't a
 problem for me. When I said I have no success in selling accessibility, I
 meant apart from the basic needs (everything lined up, look good, accessible
 with mouse and keyboard), clients DO NOT CARE if a person uses screen reader
 to browse his site. We need law to make them CARE, but there isn't any.

 Take the shopping site example, he wants the add cart not re-direct to cart
 page, because he thinks this will prevent people to shop more in his shop
 (now, this is another whole study of shopper behaviors which I don't know
 of). I can delivery what he wants on this , but you and other said and I
 knew it too, that I need to provide a confirmation message, and the best way
 to do it is using ajax /js as you suggested, quote your word: This
 obviously has both usability and accessibility issues..

 This is what I am unable to sell. Using an ajax validation to show
 confirmation/warning message works pretty well, the only time it doesn't
 work is someone using a special UA that supports no JS/AJAX.

 By 'de facto', if client said I don't want to redirect to checkout page. I
 answer with a 'no problem' because I know a JS validation can take care of
 some accessibility, and I don't need to explain anything to him but deliver
 what he wants. But if I am to be so accessible purist, I will say, no, we
 can't do that, because how if someone with a screen reader that has no
 support of JS/AJAX shops your store, and no redirection to the checkout
 page, then she may get confuse and this is very bad for you site. No law
 backs me up, and I am unable to sell that 'maybe, possible' 1%
 accessibility.  A good notion and The power of the Web is in its
 universality. Access by everyone regardless of disability is an essential
 aspect. won't work unless there is a law says so.


 tee







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