RE: [WSG] add to favorites?

2009-03-26 Thread Dennis Lapcewich
 And for those of you with legal requirements to use or avoid 
 certain features?great!  Use
 them as you will!  But don?t criticize others who take a more 
 practical approach and aren?t
 enslaved by the legal requirements which chain you down.

I don't believe that legal requirements providing equity of access to all 
are a problem at all.  In fact just the opposite.  It's a delightful 
challenge to work with standards and legal requirements so that anyone is 
able to access web content without being hindered by artificial barriers 
and constraints.  While my legal requirements are specific, other laws are 
now being attributed to all web sites here in the US.  The recent Target 
case was a rather expensive $6 million learning exercise for that company 
and may have established a precedent for all (commercial) web sites in the 
US.  We will have to wait and see.  Apparently Virgin Blue in Australia is 
embroiled in its own problems with respect to standards and accessibility. 
 That case could go either way and also establish a precedent for web 
sites based in Australia.

In many ways the approach is similar to the old Fram oil commercials that 
used to run on TV here in the States (You can pay me now or pay me 
later.) Designing and building according to standards is more 
cost-effective in the long run. It's a best practice.  It's good for 
business.

And yes, as already demonstrated in this thread, one must be cognizant 
that not every web professional is able to effectively exercise their 
professional judgement when it comes to standards.  Being able to pay the 
rent and put food on the table is pretty strong incentive to just put 
one's head down and do the job.  At the same time the challenge for web 
standards is being addressed where that unfair burden does not exist. 

 
 You just don?t realize it, but you?re enslaved more by your 
 ?company? than I will *ever* be.

I fail to understand that doing the right thing for the greatest good 
could ever been seen as enslavement.  Removing artificial barriers has 
never been a form of enslavement in my book.


Dennis Lapcewich
US Forest Service Webmaster
Pacific Northwest Region - Vancouver, WA
360-891-5024 - Voice | 360-891-5045 - Fax
dlapcew...@fs.fed.us

People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing 
it. -- George Bernard Shaw




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RE: Who's responsible (was Re: [WSG] add to favorites?)

2009-03-26 Thread Stuart Foulstone


The point of the introduction of Web standards was so that user-agent
manufacturers can create browsers that render them as intended by the
designer.

And that, yes, in 10 years time the browsers that exist then (whatever
form they may take)will still render them as intended because they are
written to those standards.

That is not to say that the standards are fixed in stone and that the Web
will not move forward, but rather that the standards we will move forward
in a coherent way to create a better and better user experience (rather
than the proprietary mess we had pre-standards).

I.E., whilst moving to support Web standards, has to provide support for
legacy sites coded to their earlier proprietary mess.



On Thu, March 26, 2009 1:19 am, Rick Faircloth wrote:
 Wow...10 years from now...as fast as change occurs these
 days, who knows what things will be like then!

 Rick

 -Original Message-
 From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
 Behalf Of nedlud
 Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 8:58 PM
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Subject: Re: Who's responsible (was Re: [WSG] add to favorites?)

 As I understand this thread, it is not about whether current standards
 are right or wrong, but how did we end up with these standards in the
 first place?

 The current standards did not just spring into existence, fully
 formed, out of the brow of some greek god. The standards evolved as
 peoples understanding of the web evolved. And the web itself was
 evolving at the same time, just as it continues to do. Just as the
 standards will continue to evolve.

 I'm certainly not saying that I disagree with current web standards,
 just that it would be foolish to think that they are *definitive*.

 As professionals, it is our responsibility to be reflective
 practitioners: to question the status quo and make sure it's really
 working. We can't do that without asking questions, or without
 listening to people who ask questions.

 The web is still an incredibly young medium and anyone who imagines
 that the standards we have today will apply to the web of tomorrow
 (I'm thinking of about a 10 year away tomorrow) would be naive.

 L.


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[WSG] add to favorites?

2009-03-25 Thread designer
Does anyone know of a modern, valid, reasonably cross-browser way to provide 
a link on a page so that a user can add the page to favourites?  The only 
one I can find is IE only:


Click a href=javascript:window.external.AddFavorite(' 
http://www.blablabla.com', 'blabla')here/a to add this site to your 
bookmarks (Internet Explorer only).


Someone MUST have done this - but I can't find it.   JS or PHP would be 
fine.


Any help gratefully appreciated.

Bob
www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk 





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Re: [WSG] add to favorites?

2009-03-25 Thread Nathan de Vries

On 25/03/2009, at 11:15 PM, designer wrote:
Does anyone know of a modern, valid, reasonably cross-browser way to  
provide a link on a page so that a user can add the page to  
favourites?


There is no way of doing this across all browsers, so all you're left  
with are the browsers who have provided a proprietary mechanism. Off  
the top of my head, only IE and Gecko-based browsers have this. You've  
already discovered window.external.addFavorite() for IE, so all that's  
left is the Mozilla/Firefox counterpart:


window.sidebar.addPanel(Google, http://www.google.com/;, );


Cheers,

Nathan de Vries


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Re: [WSG] add to favorites?

2009-03-25 Thread David Dorward

designer wrote:
Does anyone know of a modern, valid, reasonably cross-browser way to 
provide a link on a page so that a user can add the page to favourites?
As far as I know, Microsoft are the only vendor to have implemented a 
system for triggering bookmark/favourite adding from a webpage.


In my opinion, the lack of support is a good thing. I can think of two 
reasons why you might want to have such a feature.


1. To help users who don't know how to use the feature their browser has 
built in.


... but if they don't know how to add them, then they probably don't 
know how to go back to them.


2. To cover up a Oh, you have to love this website, please add it to 
your bookmarks, pretty please message with something resembling 
something useful.


... which is just tacky.

Are there any other reasons?

--
David Dorward
http://dorward.me.uk/


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RE: [WSG] add to favorites?

2009-03-25 Thread Patrick Lauke
 designer
 Does anyone know of a modern, valid, reasonably cross-browser way to
provide a link on a page so that a user can add the page to favourites?
The only one I can find is IE only:

I know you're probably asking because a client insists on having it,
but...have we not evolved yet beyond replicating browser functionality
in-page? Will there also be a make this my homepage link?

Sorry, being a grumpy bar-stewart today...

P

Patrick H. Lauke
Web Editor
Enterprise  Development
University of Salford
Room 113, Faraday House
Salford, Greater Manchester
M5 4WT
UK

T +44 (0) 161 295 4779
webmas...@salford.ac.uk

www.salford.ac.uk

A GREATER MANCHESTER UNIVERSITY 


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RE: [WSG] add to favorites?

2009-03-25 Thread Steve Green
It's not just replicating browser functionality - it's a call to action. As
such I think it's perfectly reasonable.

Steve

 

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Patrick Lauke
Sent: 25 March 2009 13:36
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] add to favorites?

 designer
 Does anyone know of a modern, valid, reasonably cross-browser way to
provide a link on a page so that a user can add the page to favourites?
The only one I can find is IE only:

I know you're probably asking because a client insists on having it,
but...have we not evolved yet beyond replicating browser functionality
in-page? Will there also be a make this my homepage link?

Sorry, being a grumpy bar-stewart today...

P

Patrick H. Lauke
Web Editor
Enterprise  Development
University of Salford
Room 113, Faraday House
Salford, Greater Manchester
M5 4WT
UK

T +44 (0) 161 295 4779
webmas...@salford.ac.uk

www.salford.ac.uk

A GREATER MANCHESTER UNIVERSITY 


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Re: [WSG] add to favorites?

2009-03-25 Thread Andrew Maben

On Mar 25, 2009, at 10:10 AM, Steve Green wrote:

It's not just replicating browser functionality - it's a call to  
action.


But the action you're calling for is indeed a replication of browser  
functionality. Calling something by another name does not change what  
it is.


So previously stated arguments against doing it still stand.


Andrew Maben

www.andrewmaben.net
and...@andrewmaben.com

In a well designed user interface, the user should not need  
instructions.


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RE: [WSG] add to favorites?

2009-03-25 Thread Rick Faircloth
As was mentioned, it's a call to action.  Those who are familiar
with marketing will understand this concept.  Also, it a user-friendly
way to compel a user to bookmark the site for future reference without
jumping through the hoops the browsers require.

It's the same principle as putting Call us today at 918-878-8787 for
more info.  Instead of just putting 918-878-8787.

Rick

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of David Dorward
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 9:14 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] add to favorites?

designer wrote:
 Does anyone know of a modern, valid, reasonably cross-browser way to 
 provide a link on a page so that a user can add the page to favourites?
As far as I know, Microsoft are the only vendor to have implemented a 
system for triggering bookmark/favourite adding from a webpage.

In my opinion, the lack of support is a good thing. I can think of two 
reasons why you might want to have such a feature.

1. To help users who don't know how to use the feature their browser has 
built in.

... but if they don't know how to add them, then they probably don't 
know how to go back to them.

2. To cover up a Oh, you have to love this website, please add it to 
your bookmarks, pretty please message with something resembling 
something useful.

... which is just tacky.

Are there any other reasons?

-- 
David Dorward
http://dorward.me.uk/


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Re: [WSG] add to favorites?

2009-03-25 Thread Andrew Maben
The argument continues to be shaky at best. ...compel a user... in  
particular seems to display a fundamental misunderstanding of the  
realities of the web as a medium.


I wonder if anyone knows of any user studies around this question: Is  
this an often-requested feature? When available, is it a much-used  
feature? I would guess that the answer is no in both cases - but by  
all means prove me wrong!


Andrew

On Mar 25, 2009, at 11:20 AM, Rick Faircloth wrote:


As was mentioned, it's a call to action.  Those who are familiar
with marketing will understand this concept.  Also, it a user-friendly
way to compel a user to bookmark the site for future reference without
jumping through the hoops the browsers require.

It's the same principle as putting Call us today at 918-878-8787 for
more info.  Instead of just putting 918-878-8787.

Rick

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org  
[mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On

Behalf Of David Dorward
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 9:14 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] add to favorites?

designer wrote:

Does anyone know of a modern, valid, reasonably cross-browser way to
provide a link on a page so that a user can add the page to  
favourites?

As far as I know, Microsoft are the only vendor to have implemented a
system for triggering bookmark/favourite adding from a webpage.

In my opinion, the lack of support is a good thing. I can think of two
reasons why you might want to have such a feature.

1. To help users who don't know how to use the feature their  
browser has

built in.

... but if they don't know how to add them, then they probably don't
know how to go back to them.

2. To cover up a Oh, you have to love this website, please add it to
your bookmarks, pretty please message with something resembling
something useful.

... which is just tacky.

Are there any other reasons?

--
David Dorward
http://dorward.me.uk/


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RE: [WSG] add to favorites?

2009-03-25 Thread Stuart Foulstone

This list is aware of many marketing practices that are against Web
Standards.


On Wed, March 25, 2009 3:46 pm, Rick Faircloth wrote:
 No, previous arguments still miss the point.



 Having a button on a browser for booksmarks is not comparable

 to having a Bookmark this page link on the browser screen.



 The link on the page is in the field-of-focus of a site visitor, whereas

 the browser button is not, making the idea of bookmarking the site

 more likely to come to mind and therefore, acted upon.



 Also, the words, Bookmark this page are a call or prompt to

 action, whereas the simple existence of a button with Bookmark

 identifies the button, but offers no encouragement to the user

 to user the button.



 It's the difference between walking into a room with another door

 and see a sign that says, walk through this door, as opposed to just

 seeing the door.  Both offer the opportunity to use the door, but

 the words walk through this door definitely causes the visitor to the

 room to consider using the door, whereas the simple existence of the

 door may be reacted to in multiple ways, including walking through the
 door,

 avoiding the door, and ignoring the door.



 Again, call-to-action, marketing concept which you may or may not
 understand.



 Rick



 From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
 Behalf Of Andrew Maben
 Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 11:18 AM
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Subject: Re: [WSG] add to favorites?



 On Mar 25, 2009, at 10:10 AM, Steve Green wrote:





 It's not just replicating browser functionality - it's a call to action.



 But the action you're calling for is indeed a replication of browser
 functionality. Calling something by another name does not change what it
 is.



 So previously stated arguments against doing it still stand.





 Andrew Maben



 www.andrewmaben.net

 and...@andrewmaben.com



 In a well designed user interface, the user should not need
 instructions.


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RE: [WSG] add to favorites?

2009-03-25 Thread Steve Green
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Andrew Maben
Sent: 25 March 2009 15:18
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] add to favorites?


On Mar 25, 2009, at 10:10 AM, Steve Green wrote:


It's not just replicating browser functionality - it's a call to
action.


But the action you're calling for is indeed a replication of browser
functionality. Calling something by another name does not change what it is.

So previously stated arguments against doing it still stand.


Andrew Maben

www.andrewmaben.net
and...@andrewmaben.com

--
 

It makes no sense to me that you would provide a call to action and then not
provide a means for the user to perform that action when it is so easy to do
so. That will inevitably result in fewer people performing the action than
would have done if you provided the means to do so. That's fine if it's your
site but you are doing your clients a disservice if you do it to theirs.

Steve



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RE: [WSG] add to favorites?

2009-03-25 Thread Rick Faircloth
Apparently this list is not aware of many marketing practices,
as the original poster was challenged as to the appropriateness
as to the use of a standard marketing practice.

If list members do not want to discuss topics, they should not
bring them up.

I didn't start this discussion, but I'll be glad to finish it and
educate the list as to the many marketing partices of which
some are not aware.

Rick

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Stuart Foulstone
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 12:19 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] add to favorites?


This list is aware of many marketing practices that are against Web
Standards.


On Wed, March 25, 2009 3:46 pm, Rick Faircloth wrote:
 No, previous arguments still miss the point.



 Having a button on a browser for booksmarks is not comparable

 to having a Bookmark this page link on the browser screen.



 The link on the page is in the field-of-focus of a site visitor, whereas

 the browser button is not, making the idea of bookmarking the site

 more likely to come to mind and therefore, acted upon.



 Also, the words, Bookmark this page are a call or prompt to

 action, whereas the simple existence of a button with Bookmark

 identifies the button, but offers no encouragement to the user

 to user the button.



 It's the difference between walking into a room with another door

 and see a sign that says, walk through this door, as opposed to just

 seeing the door.  Both offer the opportunity to use the door, but

 the words walk through this door definitely causes the visitor to the

 room to consider using the door, whereas the simple existence of the

 door may be reacted to in multiple ways, including walking through the
 door,

 avoiding the door, and ignoring the door.



 Again, call-to-action, marketing concept which you may or may not
 understand.



 Rick



 From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
 Behalf Of Andrew Maben
 Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 11:18 AM
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Subject: Re: [WSG] add to favorites?



 On Mar 25, 2009, at 10:10 AM, Steve Green wrote:





 It's not just replicating browser functionality - it's a call to action.



 But the action you're calling for is indeed a replication of browser
 functionality. Calling something by another name does not change what it
 is.



 So previously stated arguments against doing it still stand.





 Andrew Maben



 www.andrewmaben.net

 and...@andrewmaben.com



 In a well designed user interface, the user should not need
 instructions.


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RE: [WSG] add to favorites?

2009-03-25 Thread Steve Green
 

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Stuart Foulstone
Sent: 25 March 2009 16:19
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] add to favorites?


This list is aware of many marketing practices that are against Web
Standards.

--

Is this list interested in discussing how to balance the conflicting
requirements of various stakeholders (including marketers) or does it take
the dogmatic position that compliance with web stardards trumps everything
else?

Steve



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RE: [WSG] add to favorites?

2009-03-25 Thread Janice Schwarz
I'm new to this group, so I can't speak for anyone else. However, this
sounds like something that would be of interest to me. I'm certainly game
for hearing how other people handle these conflicts, how they arrive at
their decisions, and so on. 

The simple fact is that regardless of our commitment to web standards, many
are often in the position where we don't get to make the call as to whether
we can adhere to those standards or not. Sometimes, if we want to keep our
day jobs or clients as freelancers, we have to pick our battles and
sometimes pick and choose what we can get them to comply with and what we're
willing to let go of.

Janice


-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Steve Green
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 9:56 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] add to favorites?


Is this list interested in discussing how to balance the conflicting
requirements of various stakeholders (including marketers) or does it take
the dogmatic position that compliance with web stardards trumps everything
else?

Steve



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Re: [WSG] add to favorites?

2009-03-25 Thread designer
My justification for wanting to do this is simple, and in my eyes, very 
sensible.  However, it will no doubt cause ructions amongst the evangelists.


I want to use frames.  Frames, contrary to popular myth, are not an 
accessibility nightmare. The simple 2-frame frameset I have made validates 
perfectly, and passes the WCAG priority 3 test. We could argue about 'best 
practice' but that's not what we are here for.  My thinking on this is that 
I've put a red 'home' link to the frameset on the top of every page that 
appears in the main frame, so that if I could 'add to favorites' the same 
way, a user can save the page and return to it later AND get back to the 
main frameset with one click.  Hence, one of the valid criticisms of using 
frames is shot dead.


Bob
www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk






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RE: [WSG] add to favorites?

2009-03-25 Thread Rick Faircloth
A call-to-action Bookmark This Page does not provide the
same functionality as a browser's bookmarking button when
functionality is extended to include psychological functionality
from the designer's perspective.

From a technical perspective, a bookmarking link and a bookmarking
browser button can be used to achieve the same result, however,
from the perspective of attempting to achieve the goal of 
affecting user behavior (or a user's function or performance),
a link is *far* more functional than a browser's built-in bookmarking
facility.

Expand your definition of functionality.

Rick

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Steve Green
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 12:23 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] add to favorites?

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Andrew Maben
Sent: 25 March 2009 15:18
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] add to favorites?


On Mar 25, 2009, at 10:10 AM, Steve Green wrote:


It's not just replicating browser functionality - it's a call to
action.


But the action you're calling for is indeed a replication of browser
functionality. Calling something by another name does not change what it is.

So previously stated arguments against doing it still stand.


Andrew Maben

www.andrewmaben.net
and...@andrewmaben.com

--
 

It makes no sense to me that you would provide a call to action and then not
provide a means for the user to perform that action when it is so easy to do
so. That will inevitably result in fewer people performing the action than
would have done if you provided the means to do so. That's fine if it's your
site but you are doing your clients a disservice if you do it to theirs.

Steve



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RE: [WSG] add to favorites?

2009-03-25 Thread Rick Faircloth
Quite right, Janice.

When you have a boss, you do as the boss says, like it or not.
Or quit, or be fired.  Those are the options.

No web standard is worth the loss of employment.

If anyone wants to make the final decision about standards
adherence, become the boss.

Rick

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Janice Schwarz
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 2:14 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] add to favorites?

I'm new to this group, so I can't speak for anyone else. However, this
sounds like something that would be of interest to me. I'm certainly game
for hearing how other people handle these conflicts, how they arrive at
their decisions, and so on. 

The simple fact is that regardless of our commitment to web standards, many
are often in the position where we don't get to make the call as to whether
we can adhere to those standards or not. Sometimes, if we want to keep our
day jobs or clients as freelancers, we have to pick our battles and
sometimes pick and choose what we can get them to comply with and what we're
willing to let go of.

Janice


-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Steve Green
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 9:56 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] add to favorites?


Is this list interested in discussing how to balance the conflicting
requirements of various stakeholders (including marketers) or does it take
the dogmatic position that compliance with web stardards trumps everything
else?

Steve



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RE: [WSG] add to favorites?

2009-03-25 Thread Rick Faircloth
The correct design (and web standards that are adhered to or not)
is that design for which the client is paying.  Web designers should
offer suggestions and guidance to those who hire them for their
expertise, but the decision to follow or disregard standards is up
to the person footing the bill.

A standard could be imposed on all concerned that would make driving
accessible to the blind...it certainly is technically possible...however,
the cost is simply too high to make that a reality.

Likewise, site owners may be under time and monetary restraints that
prohibit making their websites accessible to all.  Or they may just choose
not to...again, it's the boss's choice, not the designer's.

Rick

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of designer
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 2:03 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] add to favorites?

My justification for wanting to do this is simple, and in my eyes, very 
sensible.  However, it will no doubt cause ructions amongst the evangelists.

I want to use frames.  Frames, contrary to popular myth, are not an 
accessibility nightmare. The simple 2-frame frameset I have made validates 
perfectly, and passes the WCAG priority 3 test. We could argue about 'best 
practice' but that's not what we are here for.  My thinking on this is that 
I've put a red 'home' link to the frameset on the top of every page that 
appears in the main frame, so that if I could 'add to favorites' the same 
way, a user can save the page and return to it later AND get back to the 
main frameset with one click.  Hence, one of the valid criticisms of using 
frames is shot dead.

Bob
www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk






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Re: [WSG] add to favorites?

2009-03-25 Thread Andrew Maben

On Mar 25, 2009, at 3:01 PM, Rick Faircloth wrote:


When you have a boss, you do as the boss says, like it or not.
Or quit, or be fired.  Those are the options.


If you have not been hired for your expertise, yes. Otherwise you are  
honor-bound to present the arguments, not just blindly obey -  
naturally if the boss chooses to ignore you then you have to do as  
you are told. But if you are working for someone who insists on  
acting against his own interests you'll be out of a job soon enough  
anyway


Andrew

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Re: [WSG] add to favorites?

2009-03-25 Thread Andrew Maben
I am not so arrogant as to even wish to speak for this list, but on  
my own account I'll say that this question is disingenuous. Obviously  
our work constantly involves balancing requirements. An important  
part of that balancing act is to provide the benefit of our expertise  
to stakeholders. And painful as it may be, part of that includes  
educating people who do not yet understand that this truly is a new  
medium and as such all too often old approaches are irrelevant or  
counter-productive - e.g. in spite of a growing body of evidence on  
banner blindness, naive site owners often still want banner-like  
graphics.


In the context of the given question (and no you don't need to  
explain marketing to me - I've worked in advertising for 20+ years)  
the call to action falls *outside* the vendor environment (the  
site) and into the customer environment (the browser). As mentioned  
by others, this functionality is *already available* to any user,  
should s/he choose.


Having said that, I would suggest to the client that this is at best  
unhelpful, at worst intrusive. But there are simple ways to encourage  
a user to share the site on delicious, facebook, etc. and these  
provide value to both vendor and customer - and are not limited  
to a subset of browsers, and can be standards-compliant.


Andrew

www.andrewmaben.net
and...@andrewmaben.com

In a well designed user interface, the user should not need  
instructions.


(Forgive me if this duplicates the prior version)

On Mar 25, 2009, at 12:56 PM, Steve Green wrote:




-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org  
[mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On

Behalf Of Stuart Foulstone
Sent: 25 March 2009 16:19
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] add to favorites?


This list is aware of many marketing practices that are against Web
Standards.

--

Is this list interested in discussing how to balance the conflicting
requirements of various stakeholders (including marketers) or does  
it take
the dogmatic position that compliance with web stardards trumps  
everything

else?

Steve



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Re: [WSG] add to favorites?

2009-03-25 Thread Bruce
I have found using a service such as http://www.addthis.com/ which includes add 
to favorites/bookmark is fine.

Bruce Prochnau
BKDesign Solutions

  - Original Message - 
  From: Andrew Maben 
  To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org 
  Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 3:34 PM
  Subject: Re: [WSG] add to favorites?


  I am not so arrogant as to even wish to speak for this list, but on my own 
account I'll say that this question is disingenuous. Obviously our work 
constantly involves balancing requirements. An important part of that balancing 
act is to provide the benefit of our expertise to stakeholders. And painful as 
it may be, part of that includes educating people who do not yet understand 
that this truly is a new medium and as such all too often old approaches are 
irrelevant or counter-productive - e.g. in spite of a growing body of evidence 
on banner blindness, naive site owners often still want banner-like graphics.


  In the context of the given question (and no you don't need to explain 
marketing to me - I've worked in advertising for 20+ years) the call to 
action falls *outside* the vendor environment (the site) and into the 
customer environment (the browser). As mentioned by others, this 
functionality is *already available* to any user, should s/he choose.


  Having said that, I would suggest to the client that this is at best 
unhelpful, at worst intrusive. But there are simple ways to encourage a user to 
share the site on delicious, facebook, etc. and these provide value to both 
vendor and customer - and are not limited to a subset of browsers, and can 
be standards-compliant.


  Andrew


  www.andrewmaben.net
  and...@andrewmaben.com


  In a well designed user interface, the user should not need instructions.

  (Forgive me if this duplicates the prior version)


  On Mar 25, 2009, at 12:56 PM, Steve Green wrote:






-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Stuart Foulstone
Sent: 25 March 2009 16:19
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] add to favorites?




This list is aware of many marketing practices that are against Web
Standards.


--


Is this list interested in discussing how to balance the conflicting
requirements of various stakeholders (including marketers) or does it take
the dogmatic position that compliance with web stardards trumps everything
else?


Steve






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Re: [WSG] add to favorites?

2009-03-25 Thread Krystian - Sunlust
In my opinion that's the wrong list to ask such a question, should go
to something more web developing like.

My opinion about the button idea and web standards?
Why not give a nice ajax button that when people click it gives them
instruction in few screenshots/lines of text on how to favourite a
certain website.

Buttons and only IE?
Well, I think that adding pages as bookmarks/favourites is one of
those things that people know, but people who use internet more
savvy way, if they use Firefox/any other good browser they most
likely know how to favourite a website anyway, if they use IE then
they might not be able to find it afterwards anyway, and don't even
get me started on add this page as your homepage IE should fix that
ages ago, it's being abused everywhere.

Offtopic: I work for an IT company and there's lots of people who
click links and get their IE blown by adding a page with popus on
their homepage and then each time they start IE it f^%$ them up...
I really hope that the recent european commission case of fighting
against browser monopoly will one day really do something and people
will realise that Internet Explorer is not the only choice...many of
them think of it as the only browser...

-- 
Krystian Szastok
Affordable, Freelance Web Designer in Eastbourne, East Sussex:
http://eastbournewebdesign.net
Mobile UK (Orange): 07528 036 337
Call for more information or email me.


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RE: [WSG] add to favorites?

2009-03-25 Thread Rick Faircloth
This seems like a good solution and I certainly would use it.

 

But the others who are against bookmarking links could not without

violating principle.  Although that single link provides a lot of

convenience for the user, they could still visit all 11 plus sites

to register their site on delicious, digg, google, facebook, twitter, etc.

 

Therefore, according to the principle of unobtrusiveness and

duplication of functionality defended by many on this list, that user

convenience would be unacceptable.

 

Too bad.this would have been a great enhancement to the user experience

and, I'm sure, would be appreciated by the business interests whose links

are represented.

 

Rick

 

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Bruce
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 4:05 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] add to favorites?

 

I have found using a service such as http://www.addthis.com/ which includes
add to favorites/bookmark is fine.

 

Bruce Prochnau

BKDesign Solutions

 

- Original Message - 

From: Andrew Maben mailto:and...@andrewmaben.com  

To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org 

Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 3:34 PM

Subject: Re: [WSG] add to favorites?

 

I am not so arrogant as to even wish to speak for this list, but on my own
account I'll say that this question is disingenuous. Obviously our work
constantly involves balancing requirements. An important part of that
balancing act is to provide the benefit of our expertise to stakeholders.
And painful as it may be, part of that includes educating people who do not
yet understand that this truly is a new medium and as such all too often
old approaches are irrelevant or counter-productive - e.g. in spite of a
growing body of evidence on banner blindness, naive site owners often
still want banner-like graphics.

 

In the context of the given question (and no you don't need to explain
marketing to me - I've worked in advertising for 20+ years) the call to
action falls *outside* the vendor environment (the site) and into the
customer environment (the browser). As mentioned by others, this
functionality is *already available* to any user, should s/he choose.

 

Having said that, I would suggest to the client that this is at best
unhelpful, at worst intrusive. But there are simple ways to encourage a user
to share the site on delicious, facebook, etc. and these provide value to
both vendor and customer - and are not limited to a subset of browsers,
and can be standards-compliant.

 

Andrew

 

www.andrewmaben.net

and...@andrewmaben.com

 

In a well designed user interface, the user should not need instructions.

(Forgive me if this duplicates the prior version)

 

On Mar 25, 2009, at 12:56 PM, Steve Green wrote:





 

 

-Original Message-

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On

Behalf Of Stuart Foulstone

Sent: 25 March 2009 16:19

To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org

Subject: RE: [WSG] add to favorites?

 

 

This list is aware of many marketing practices that are against Web

Standards.

 

--

 

Is this list interested in discussing how to balance the conflicting

requirements of various stakeholders (including marketers) or does it take

the dogmatic position that compliance with web stardards trumps everything

else?

 

Steve

 

 

 

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RE: [WSG] add to favorites?

2009-03-25 Thread Rick Faircloth
Spend a little time on Google searching
internet marketing call to action bookmark this page
and you'll get a ton of info on the subject and you'll
see many other examples that are similar to bookmarking,
such as Subscribe to my RSS feed... even though there
is a button right on the page already.  These types of
call-to-action are typically scattered throughout a
page's content and are considered critical for successful
marketing.

Rick

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Andrew Maben
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 11:41 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] add to favorites?

The argument continues to be shaky at best. ...compel a user... in  
particular seems to display a fundamental misunderstanding of the  
realities of the web as a medium.

I wonder if anyone knows of any user studies around this question: Is  
this an often-requested feature? When available, is it a much-used  
feature? I would guess that the answer is no in both cases - but by  
all means prove me wrong!

Andrew

On Mar 25, 2009, at 11:20 AM, Rick Faircloth wrote:

 As was mentioned, it's a call to action.  Those who are familiar
 with marketing will understand this concept.  Also, it a user-friendly
 way to compel a user to bookmark the site for future reference without
 jumping through the hoops the browsers require.

 It's the same principle as putting Call us today at 918-878-8787 for
 more info.  Instead of just putting 918-878-8787.

 Rick

 -Original Message-
 From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org  
 [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
 Behalf Of David Dorward
 Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 9:14 AM
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Subject: Re: [WSG] add to favorites?

 designer wrote:
 Does anyone know of a modern, valid, reasonably cross-browser way to
 provide a link on a page so that a user can add the page to  
 favourites?
 As far as I know, Microsoft are the only vendor to have implemented a
 system for triggering bookmark/favourite adding from a webpage.

 In my opinion, the lack of support is a good thing. I can think of two
 reasons why you might want to have such a feature.

 1. To help users who don't know how to use the feature their  
 browser has
 built in.

 ... but if they don't know how to add them, then they probably don't
 know how to go back to them.

 2. To cover up a Oh, you have to love this website, please add it to
 your bookmarks, pretty please message with something resembling
 something useful.

 ... which is just tacky.

 Are there any other reasons?

 -- 
 David Dorward
 http://dorward.me.uk/


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Re: [WSG] add to favorites?

2009-03-25 Thread Andrew Maben
I am not so arrogant as to even wish to speak for this list, but on  
my own account I'll say that this question is disingenuous. Obviously  
our work constantly involves balancing requirements. An important  
part of that balancing act is to provide the benefit of our expertise  
to stakeholders. And painful as it may be, part of that includes  
educating people who do not yet understand that this truly is a new  
medium and as such all too often old approaches are irrelevant or  
counter-productive - e.g. in spite of a growing body of evidence on  
banner blindness, naive site owners often still want banner-like  
graphics.


In the context of the given question (and no you don't need to  
explain marketing to me - I've worked in advertising for 20+ years)  
the call to action falls *outside* the vendor environment (the  
site) and into the customer environment (the browser). As mentioned  
by others, this functionality is *already available* to any user,  
should s/he choose.


Having said that, I would suggest to the client that this is at best  
unhelpful, at worst intrusive. But there are simple ways to encourage  
a user to share the site on delicious, facebook, etc. and these  
provide value to both vendor and customer - and are not limited  
to a subset of browsers, and can be standards-compliant.


Andrew

www.andrewmaben.net
and...@andrewmaben.com

In a well designed user interface, the user should not need  
instructions.





On Mar 25, 2009, at 12:56 PM, Steve Green wrote:




-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org  
[mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On

Behalf Of Stuart Foulstone
Sent: 25 March 2009 16:19
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] add to favorites?


This list is aware of many marketing practices that are against Web
Standards.

--

Is this list interested in discussing how to balance the conflicting
requirements of various stakeholders (including marketers) or does  
it take
the dogmatic position that compliance with web stardards trumps  
everything

else?

Steve



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Re: [WSG] add to favorites?

2009-03-25 Thread Nathan de Vries

On 26/03/2009, at 3:56 AM, Steve Green wrote:

Is this list interested in discussing how to balance the conflicting
requirements of various stakeholders (including marketers) or does  
it take
the dogmatic position that compliance with web stardards trumps  
everything

else?


You've pretty much summed up the reason I constantly ask myself why I  
haven't unsubscribed from this list yet. To me, web standards evolve  
by taking something that works, recognising its' usefulness, and  
standardising it. In many cases, it's valid and necessary to use  
proprietary features of browsers in lieu of standardised features;  
whether it be using VML in one browser and SVG in another, Flash for  
uploading files to indicate upload progress, vendor-specific  
Javascript calls to add bookmarks, or IE's CSS filters for enabling  
transparent backgrounds.


Pragmatic use of standard *and* proprietary features of browsers (with  
a preference towards standards) is my definition of someone who takes  
standards seriously. Surprisingly (and unfortunately for many users of  
their software), some of the more vocal on this list seem to disagree.



Cheers,

Nathan de Vries


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Who's responsible (was Re: [WSG] add to favorites?)

2009-03-25 Thread Matt Morgan-May
On 3/25/09 12:12 PM, Rick Faircloth r...@whitestonemedia.com wrote:
 The correct design (and web standards that are adhered to or not)
 is that design for which the client is paying.

Sorry, but that just reads to me like a way to excuse slipshod work. It is
one thing to figure out any old way to collect the check, and quite another
to think out all the angles and produce something that reaches the largest
possible audience. I think the latter is far more professional, and all of
the people I now work with, and all the ones I think of as successful in web
design/dev, sweat those details.

I've personally refused jobs before based on the knowledge that
accessibility was being left out. So I know it can be done. Whether others
would do the same is a question of their own judgment, not their
professionalism.

 A standard could be imposed on all concerned that would make driving
 accessible to the blind...it certainly is technically possible...however,
 the cost is simply too high to make that a reality.

First off, no, it's not possible. The technology doesn't exist today, or
we'd all have self-driving cars already.

Though what this has to do with pragmatic accessibility for web pages, which
is generally a low-cost proposition for most of what's out there, is beyond
me. Making content more accessible is not a boil-the-ocean strategy. Most of
the basics for web accessibility take little work, and are easy to integrate
into the average dev's everyday tasks. The only time it can be really costly
is when it's been ignored the whole time the work was being done.

 Likewise

(...in that they are both referenced sequentially in one email...)

 site owners may be under time and monetary restraints that
 prohibit making their websites accessible to all.  Or they may just choose
 not to...again, it's the boss's choice, not the designer's.

So, let me boil this down: web accessibility is like blind people driving.

Wow.

I think the only thing they may have in common is your willingness to
contemplate them as an implementer. Which is fine, in and of itself. I'm not
the boss of you. But if you're trying to equate the task of following a few
best practices with reinventing the world's transportation infrastructure,
well, good luck with that.

-
m



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RE: [WSG] add to favorites?

2009-03-25 Thread Dennis Lapcewich
While the concept may appear sound at first glance, it's based on a false, 
misleading and dishonest premise.

The simple process of adding a favorites link on a web page is a 
proprietary function attributed to a single browser designed and developed 
by its manufacturer solely as marketing mechanism for said company.  While 
on its face this may appear as a user benefit, the actual benefit is just 
for that single browser and its creator.   Web developers sought to 
develop similar code so that the function would work in other browsers 
such as Firefox, Safari, Opera, etc., with no appreciable success.  The 
mere name favorites should have been the clue since that term is also 
proprietary to that single browser.  The actual industry term is bookmark.

On the other hand, RSS feeds and links, Subscribe to my RSS feed .. is 
an industry term using code accessible to all browsers.  While created by 
a proprietary development group, its growth and development was more of an 
open standards approach.  It eventually became an industry standard and it 
works in all browsers.  Comparing favorites to RSS  is unfair.  It is 
comparing fish to bicycles, in more ways than one.  The former smells in a 
relatively short period of time (and may contain chemicals not conducive 
to good health) while the latter will actually take you somewhere that you 
may choose to go, and you will feel better, too.  Perhaps the analogy also 
applies to each function's pedigree as well. 

Standards are about equity of access.  While some may be inclined to 
include a favorites link on a web page as a method to retain customers, 
bear in mind the function requires the user to support a proprietary 
process as well.  Still, some may not care.  However, for those of us with 
legal requirements to provide equity of access regardless of the method, 
use of a favorites link is an implied endorsement of a particular tool 
from a particular manufacturer, and that is a big no no.  It is a denial 
of access to others who do not live in a company town, who do not live in 
a company house, who do not buy from the company store and who do not 
respond to every query with, Yes, Sir! May I have another, Sir!



Dennis Lapcewich
US Forest Service Webmaster
Pacific Northwest Region - Vancouver, WA
360-891-5024 - Voice | 360-891-5045 - Fax
dlapcew...@fs.fed.us

People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing 
it. -- George Bernard Shaw




Rick Faircloth r...@whitestonemedia.com 
Sent by: li...@webstandardsgroup.org
03/25/2009 02:48 PM
Please respond to
wsg@webstandardsgroup.org


To
wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
cc

Subject
RE: [WSG] add to favorites?






Spend a little time on Google searching
internet marketing call to action bookmark this page
and you'll get a ton of info on the subject and you'll
see many other examples that are similar to bookmarking,
such as Subscribe to my RSS feed... even though there
is a button right on the page already.  These types of
call-to-action are typically scattered throughout a
page's content and are considered critical for successful
marketing.

Rick

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Andrew Maben
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 11:41 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] add to favorites?

The argument continues to be shaky at best. ...compel a user... in 
particular seems to display a fundamental misunderstanding of the 
realities of the web as a medium.

I wonder if anyone knows of any user studies around this question: Is 
this an often-requested feature? When available, is it a much-used 
feature? I would guess that the answer is no in both cases - but by 
all means prove me wrong!

Andrew

On Mar 25, 2009, at 11:20 AM, Rick Faircloth wrote:

 As was mentioned, it's a call to action.  Those who are familiar
 with marketing will understand this concept.  Also, it a user-friendly
 way to compel a user to bookmark the site for future reference without
 jumping through the hoops the browsers require.

 It's the same principle as putting Call us today at 918-878-8787 for
 more info.  Instead of just putting 918-878-8787.

 Rick







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RE: Who's responsible (was Re: [WSG] add to favorites?)

2009-03-25 Thread Janice Schwarz
 

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Matt Morgan-May
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 3:50 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Who's responsible (was Re: [WSG] add to favorites?)

On 3/25/09 12:12 PM, Rick Faircloth r...@whitestonemedia.com wrote:
 The correct design (and web standards that are adhered to or not) is 
 that design for which the client is paying.

 Sorry, but that just reads to me like a way to excuse slipshod work. It is
one thing to figure out any old way to collect the check, and quite another
to think out all the  angles and produce something that reaches the largest
possible audience. I think the latter is far more professional, and all of
the people I now work with, and all the  ones I think of as successful in
web design/dev, sweat those details.

You seem to assume that no one took the steps to create other options or
inform in these situations. I have. And I've been told no go, do it my way
or the highway. Not everyone is reasonable about things like that. Some
people insist they know it all and persist with ridiculous demands that are
often non-standards compliant and downright ugly. Regardless of the
alternatives they've been handed. I've dealt with some moronic requests when
it comes to websites, from people that know nothing about it. I'm sure we
all have at some point.

 I've personally refused jobs before based on the knowledge that
accessibility was being left out. So I know it can be done. Whether others
would do the same is a question  of their own judgment, not their
professionalism.

It's good that you have the luxury to be able to make that call. The reality
is that not everyone is in a position, financially or otherwise. Yes, it can
be done. It is simply not always practical.

That said, I'm in a position where I typically do get to call the shots. I
want standards compliance. Every design is blood and sweat because I'm not
compromising. But to get where I am, I had to put up with a lot of hideous
nonsense along the way.

I'm not saying let's just toss standards out the window. I'm just saying
that the reality is that sometimes we're stuck with compromise, or worse, we
don't even get to compromise. Learning how to balance conflicting
requirements, or how to offer alternatives in some cases, strikes me as a
valuable tool to advance the cause of usability and accessibility. As with
any cause, sometimes advancement and education of the masses involves
babysteps and doing what we can.

Speaking of doing what we can: anyone taken a good look at whitehouse.gov?
While they've made some great strides in modernizing the site, its sorely
lacking in basic accessibility. For starters: fixed font sizes. I filled out
the comment form to give feedback on the subject. If more of us piped up, it
could benefit.

Janice



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Re: [WSG] add to favorites?

2009-03-25 Thread Stuart Foulstone

 The Web Standards Group is for web designers  developers who are
interested in web standards (HTML, XHTML, XML, CSS, XSLT etc.) and best
practices (accessible sites using valid and semantically correct code).
We aim to:

* Provide web developers and designers with a forum to discuss issues
and share knowledge (via our discussion list and regular meetings)
* Provide web standards information and assistance to developers
* Promote web standards within the development community

Source: http://webstandardsgroup.org/


On Wed, March 25, 2009 10:46 pm, Nathan de Vries wrote:
 On 26/03/2009, at 3:56 AM, Steve Green wrote:
 Is this list interested in discussing how to balance the conflicting
 requirements of various stakeholders (including marketers) or does
 it take
 the dogmatic position that compliance with web stardards trumps
 everything
 else?

 You've pretty much summed up the reason I constantly ask myself why I
 haven't unsubscribed from this list yet. To me, web standards evolve
 by taking something that works, recognising its' usefulness, and
 standardising it. In many cases, it's valid and necessary to use
 proprietary features of browsers in lieu of standardised features;
 whether it be using VML in one browser and SVG in another, Flash for
 uploading files to indicate upload progress, vendor-specific
 Javascript calls to add bookmarks, or IE's CSS filters for enabling
 transparent backgrounds.

 Pragmatic use of standard *and* proprietary features of browsers (with
 a preference towards standards) is my definition of someone who takes
 standards seriously. Surprisingly (and unfortunately for many users of
 their software), some of the more vocal on this list seem to disagree.


 Cheers,

 Nathan de Vries


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Re: [WSG] add to favorites?

2009-03-25 Thread Nathan de Vries

On 26/03/2009, at 10:07 AM, Dennis Lapcewich wrote:
The simple process of adding a favorites link on a web page is a  
proprietary function attributed to a single browser designed and  
developed by its manufacturer solely as marketing mechanism for said  
company.  While on its face this may appear as a user benefit, the  
actual benefit is just for that single browser and its creator.


Bookmarking or adding a site to your favorites is not a user benefit?  
You've got to be kidding me.


While some may be inclined to include a favorites link on a web  
page as a method to retain customers, bear in mind the function  
requires the user to support a proprietary process as well.


Have you been living in a cave? With progressive enhancement, it's  
possible to improve the user experience of some without negatively  
affecting others. Not only that, but the competition pressures vendors  
in positive ways, more often than not leading to standardisation. If  
vendors sat around holding hands trying to reach consensus before  
releasing features in their browsers, innovation would halt altogether.



Nathan de Vries


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Re: [WSG] add to favorites?

2009-03-25 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

Rick Faircloth wrote:


Although that single link provides a lot of

convenience for the user, they could still visit all 11 plus sites

to register their site on delicious, digg, google, facebook, twitter, etc…


That assumes that the users will want to bookmark the page/site on all 
11 social bookmarking sites, rather than only on the one, maybe two they 
use, if any. And assuming that, if they indeed regularly use those 
social bookmarking sites, they haven't already got a bookmarklet or 
similar at hand to facilitate that function on all other sites as well 
that don't provide the in-page bookmarking function.


P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]

www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com | http://flickr.com/photos/redux/
__
Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
__


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Re: [WSG] add to favorites?

2009-03-25 Thread Nathan de Vries

Stuart,

You'll be pleased to know that I have indeed read what the Web  
Standards Group is for, and that I understand what web standards are.  
My original email was very clear that the method I suggested was  
*proprietary*, given that no standardised approach exists for doing  
what was asked. If there was, I would have promoted it.


If you're suggesting that my answer should have been it is not  
possible, your view of web standards and how they evolve is rather  
regressive. Not only that, but it's also potentially harmful to the  
promotion of web standards to end-users, developers and vendors, and  
contrary to (in my not so humble opinion) the spirit of the WSG mandate.



Nathan de Vries


On 26/03/2009, at 10:59 AM, Stuart Foulstone wrote:

The Web Standards Group is for web designers  developers who are
interested in web standards (HTML, XHTML, XML, CSS, XSLT etc.) and  
best
practices (accessible sites using valid and semantically correct  
code).

We aim to:

   * Provide web developers and designers with a forum to discuss  
issues

and share knowledge (via our discussion list and regular meetings)
   * Provide web standards information and assistance to developers
   * Promote web standards within the development community

Source: http://webstandardsgroup.org



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RE: [WSG] add to favorites?

2009-03-25 Thread Rick Faircloth
Oh, brother, Dennis.you're implying that the use of the word favorites is
a conspiracy?

 

And it really doesn't matter who develops a function and for what
reason.it's up to the

developers and designers to use or not use a function, depending on their
target audience.

 

Every business has to differentiate itself in the marketplace, including IE.
By choosing to

call bookmarks, favorites, they sought a way to become more
user-friendly.and succeeded

in my view.  Calling a site on of my favorites makes a lot more sense than
calling it one of

my bookmarks.

 

And, I don't recall ever mentioning putting anything favorites link on a
web page.  I could use

that on a Firefox browser or any other.the terms used don't matter.it's
still the same type

functionality.

 

And what does pedigree matter?!?  Do you only ever use functionality that
has an appropriate

pedigree?

 

And, I'll guarantee you that as the use of RSS becomes more and more common,
the terms by

which it is referred will change, as well.  It's still just a technological
tool, just like a bookmark

or favorite.  You sound more like the company man, with remarks like
the actual industry

term is bookmark.  Who cares what  the *industry* calls it.

 

In the world of business, it's not standardization that causes success, it
differentiation with

superior products or marketing.either way it spells success.

 

And for those of you with legal requirements to use or avoid certain
features.great!  Use

them as you will!  But don't criticize others who take a more practical
approach and aren't

enslaved by the legal requirements which chain you down.

 

You just don't realize it, but you're enslaved more by your company than I
will *ever* be.

 

Rick

 

 

 

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Dennis Lapcewich
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 7:08 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] add to favorites?

 


While the concept may appear sound at first glance, it's based on a false,
misleading and dishonest premise. 

The simple process of adding a favorites link on a web page is a
proprietary function attributed to a single browser designed and developed
by its manufacturer solely as marketing mechanism for said company.  While
on its face this may appear as a user benefit, the actual benefit is just
for that single browser and its creator.   Web developers sought to develop
similar code so that the function would work in other browsers such as
Firefox, Safari, Opera, etc., with no appreciable success.  The mere name
favorites should have been the clue since that term is also proprietary to
that single browser.  The actual industry term is bookmark. 

On the other hand, RSS feeds and links, Subscribe to my RSS feed .. is an
industry term using code accessible to all browsers.  While created by a
proprietary development group, its growth and development was more of an
open standards approach.  It eventually became an industry standard and it
works in all browsers.  Comparing favorites to RSS  is unfair.  It is
comparing fish to bicycles, in more ways than one.  The former smells in a
relatively short period of time (and may contain chemicals not conducive to
good health) while the latter will actually take you somewhere that you may
choose to go, and you will feel better, too.  Perhaps the analogy also
applies to each function's pedigree as well. 

Standards are about equity of access.  While some may be inclined to include
a favorites link on a web page as a method to retain customers, bear in
mind the function requires the user to support a proprietary process as
well.  Still, some may not care.  However, for those of us with legal
requirements to provide equity of access regardless of the method, use of a
favorites link is an implied endorsement of a particular tool from a
particular manufacturer, and that is a big no no.  It is a denial of access
to others who do not live in a company town, who do not live in a company
house, who do not buy from the company store and who do not respond to every
query with, Yes, Sir! May I have another, Sir! 




Dennis Lapcewich
US Forest Service Webmaster
Pacific Northwest Region - Vancouver, WA
360-891-5024 - Voice | 360-891-5045 - Fax
dlapcew...@fs.fed.us

People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing
it. -- George Bernard Shaw







Rick Faircloth r...@whitestonemedia.com 
Sent by: li...@webstandardsgroup.org 

03/25/2009 02:48 PM 


Please respond to
wsg@webstandardsgroup.org


To

wsg@webstandardsgroup.org 


cc



Subject

RE: [WSG] add to favorites?

 






Spend a little time on Google searching
internet marketing call to action bookmark this page
and you'll get a ton of info on the subject and you'll
see many other examples that are similar to bookmarking,
such as Subscribe to my RSS feed... even though there
is a button right on the page already.  These types of
call-to-action

Re: [WSG] add to favorites?

2009-03-25 Thread Andrew Maben
Do you imagine that a condescending, not to say insulting, tone adds  
weight to your arguments? If so, I'm sorry to disabuse you, but it  
just makes a weak point weaker.


To address your argument, you appear (as does OP) to be confused as  
to the context of user benefit, call to action. I find it useful  
to remember that the common conception of visitors coming to your  
site has it backwards - they are extending you the courtesy of  
allowing your site to visit their browser. As such it is probably  
better, and certainly more polite, to restrict the scope of one's  
calls to action to the site, and leave decisions about the browser  
environment to the user.


As for your second paragraph, apart from affording you the  
opportunity to offer a completely gratuitous insult, and while  
broadly true it is entirely irrelevant to the question at hand.


Respectfully.

Andrew

http://www.andrewmaben.net
and...@andrewmaben.com

In a well designed user interface, the user should not need  
instructions.



On Mar 25, 2009, at 8:09 PM, Nathan de Vries wrote:


On 26/03/2009, at 10:07 AM, Dennis Lapcewich wrote:
The simple process of adding a favorites link on a web page is a  
proprietary function attributed to a single browser designed and  
developed by its manufacturer solely as marketing mechanism for  
said company.  While on its face this may appear as a user  
benefit, the actual benefit is just for that single browser and  
its creator.


Bookmarking or adding a site to your favorites is not a user  
benefit? You've got to be kidding me.


While some may be inclined to include a favorites link on a web  
page as a method to retain customers, bear in mind the function  
requires the user to support a proprietary process as well.


Have you been living in a cave? With progressive enhancement, it's  
possible to improve the user experience of some without negatively  
affecting others. Not only that, but the competition pressures  
vendors in positive ways, more often than not leading to  
standardisation. If vendors sat around holding hands trying to  
reach consensus before releasing features in their browsers,  
innovation would halt altogether.



Nathan de Vries


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Re: [WSG] add to favorites?

2009-03-25 Thread Andrew Maben

On Mar 25, 2009, at 8:33 PM, Rick Faircloth wrote:


differentiation with
superior products or marketing


ROFL!

(sorry, Russ)

Andrew

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RE: Who's responsible (was Re: [WSG] add to favorites?)

2009-03-25 Thread Rick Faircloth
First off, no, it's not possible. The technology doesn't exist today, or
we'd all have self-driving cars already.

It is possible...there's just not sufficient will and money to make it
a widespread reality.  But that's another topic for another day...

Anyway...the first time you are forced to compromise your work in a way
that even itches a little, I want you to walk out and leave that pay check
behind right there.  Continue that walk and wait until you get hungry
enough and some of those vaunted principles will be tossed aside like
so much waste.

Like you said, accessibility is *generally* a low-cost proposition.
But, in many cases, complete accessibility can drive the cost of a site
500% higher, depending on functionality that has to be adapted.

Blind people using websites and blind people driving.  The cost is not
the same, but the principle is...it's all about the level of accommodation
that can be afforded or is appropriate.

Believe me when I say that I'm happy when as many people as possible can
be accommodated.  I just don't get bent out of shape because some people
don't care to accommodate others.

Rick

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Matt Morgan-May
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 6:50 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Who's responsible (was Re: [WSG] add to favorites?)

On 3/25/09 12:12 PM, Rick Faircloth r...@whitestonemedia.com wrote:
 The correct design (and web standards that are adhered to or not)
 is that design for which the client is paying.

Sorry, but that just reads to me like a way to excuse slipshod work. It is
one thing to figure out any old way to collect the check, and quite another
to think out all the angles and produce something that reaches the largest
possible audience. I think the latter is far more professional, and all of
the people I now work with, and all the ones I think of as successful in web
design/dev, sweat those details.

I've personally refused jobs before based on the knowledge that
accessibility was being left out. So I know it can be done. Whether others
would do the same is a question of their own judgment, not their
professionalism.

 A standard could be imposed on all concerned that would make driving
 accessible to the blind...it certainly is technically possible...however,
 the cost is simply too high to make that a reality.

First off, no, it's not possible. The technology doesn't exist today, or
we'd all have self-driving cars already.

Though what this has to do with pragmatic accessibility for web pages, which
is generally a low-cost proposition for most of what's out there, is beyond
me. Making content more accessible is not a boil-the-ocean strategy. Most of
the basics for web accessibility take little work, and are easy to integrate
into the average dev's everyday tasks. The only time it can be really costly
is when it's been ignored the whole time the work was being done.

 Likewise

(...in that they are both referenced sequentially in one email...)

 site owners may be under time and monetary restraints that
 prohibit making their websites accessible to all.  Or they may just choose
 not to...again, it's the boss's choice, not the designer's.

So, let me boil this down: web accessibility is like blind people driving.

Wow.

I think the only thing they may have in common is your willingness to
contemplate them as an implementer. Which is fine, in and of itself. I'm not
the boss of you. But if you're trying to equate the task of following a few
best practices with reinventing the world's transportation infrastructure,
well, good luck with that.

-
m



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Re: Who's responsible (was Re: [WSG] add to favorites?)

2009-03-25 Thread nedlud
As I understand this thread, it is not about whether current standards
are right or wrong, but how did we end up with these standards in the
first place?

The current standards did not just spring into existence, fully
formed, out of the brow of some greek god. The standards evolved as
peoples understanding of the web evolved. And the web itself was
evolving at the same time, just as it continues to do. Just as the
standards will continue to evolve.

I'm certainly not saying that I disagree with current web standards,
just that it would be foolish to think that they are *definitive*.

As professionals, it is our responsibility to be reflective
practitioners: to question the status quo and make sure it's really
working. We can't do that without asking questions, or without
listening to people who ask questions.

The web is still an incredibly young medium and anyone who imagines
that the standards we have today will apply to the web of tomorrow
(I'm thinking of about a 10 year away tomorrow) would be naive.

L.


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Re: [WSG] add to favorites? - ADMIN - KEEP IT POLITE PLEASE

2009-03-25 Thread Russ Weakley
ADMIN

This thread has deteriorated into slanging match.
Any more and the thread will be closed.

Keep the conversation constructive, helpful, considerate... Like a giant
virtual group hug  :0

Thanks
Russ
List admin and group hug evangelist




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RE: [WSG] add to favorites?

2009-03-25 Thread Rick Faircloth
There's where the difference is.users are *allowed* to come to sites that I
build

as a benefit to them.  I don't know of a single user who ever visited a site

(other than somebody's mother) for the benefit of the site's owner or
developer.

 

People don't visit newegg.com, Microsoft,com, or apple.com or any other site

for the benefit of those companies.they go because it benefits them.and they

are happy for the privilege of visiting those sites with  the browser that
they are

allowed to use by Microsoft, Apple, Opera, et al.  It never has been and
never

will be their browser.

 

You have an unusual perspective on reality, Andrew.

 

Rick

 

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Andrew Maben
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 8:37 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] add to favorites?

 

Do you imagine that a condescending, not to say insulting, tone adds weight
to your arguments? If so, I'm sorry to disabuse you, but it just makes a
weak point weaker.

 

To address your argument, you appear (as does OP) to be confused as to the
context of user benefit, call to action. I find it useful to remember
that the common conception of visitors coming to your site has it
backwards - they are extending you the courtesy of allowing your site to
visit their browser. As such it is probably better, and certainly more
polite, to restrict the scope of one's calls to action to the site, and
leave decisions about the browser environment to the user.

 

As for your second paragraph, apart from affording you the opportunity to
offer a completely gratuitous insult, and while broadly true it is entirely
irrelevant to the question at hand.

 

Respectfully.

 

Andrew

 

http://www.andrewmaben.net

and...@andrewmaben.com

 

In a well designed user interface, the user should not need instructions.





 

On Mar 25, 2009, at 8:09 PM, Nathan de Vries wrote:





On 26/03/2009, at 10:07 AM, Dennis Lapcewich wrote:

The simple process of adding a favorites link on a web page is a
proprietary function attributed to a single browser designed and developed
by its manufacturer solely as marketing mechanism for said company.  While
on its face this may appear as a user benefit, the actual benefit is just
for that single browser and its creator.

 

Bookmarking or adding a site to your favorites is not a user benefit? You've
got to be kidding me.

 

While some may be inclined to include a favorites link on a web page as a
method to retain customers, bear in mind the function requires the user to
support a proprietary process as well.

 

Have you been living in a cave? With progressive enhancement, it's possible
to improve the user experience of some without negatively affecting others.
Not only that, but the competition pressures vendors in positive ways, more
often than not leading to standardisation. If vendors sat around holding
hands trying to reach consensus before releasing features in their browsers,
innovation would halt altogether.

 

 

Nathan de Vries

 

 

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Re: [WSG] add to favorites?

2009-03-25 Thread Ewen . Hill
Any more and the thread will be closed.

Please!!!
 
Regards,
Ewen Hill , Project Manager, Web Communications Unit
Department of Human Services, Level 16, 50 Lonsdale Street Melbourne 
Victoria 3000 

_

This email contains confidential information intended only for the person named 
above and may be subject to legal privilege. If you are not the intended 
recipient, any disclosure, copying or use of this information is prohibited. 
The Department provides no guarantee that this communication is free of virus 
or that it has not been intercepted or interfered with. If you have received 
this email in error or have any other concerns regarding its transmission, 
please notify postmas...@dhs.vic.gov.au
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RE: [WSG] add to favorites? - ADMIN - KEEP IT POLITE PLEASE

2009-03-25 Thread Rick Faircloth
huggroup/hug

Sorry that tag isn't to standard... ;o)

Rick

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Russ Weakley
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 8:58 PM
To: Web Standards Group
Subject: Re: [WSG] add to favorites? - ADMIN - KEEP IT POLITE PLEASE

ADMIN

This thread has deteriorated into slanging match.
Any more and the thread will be closed.

Keep the conversation constructive, helpful, considerate... Like a giant
virtual group hug  :0

Thanks
Russ
List admin and group hug evangelist




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RE: Who's responsible (was Re: [WSG] add to favorites?)

2009-03-25 Thread Rick Faircloth
Wow...10 years from now...as fast as change occurs these
days, who knows what things will be like then!

Rick

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of nedlud
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 8:58 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: Who's responsible (was Re: [WSG] add to favorites?)

As I understand this thread, it is not about whether current standards
are right or wrong, but how did we end up with these standards in the
first place?

The current standards did not just spring into existence, fully
formed, out of the brow of some greek god. The standards evolved as
peoples understanding of the web evolved. And the web itself was
evolving at the same time, just as it continues to do. Just as the
standards will continue to evolve.

I'm certainly not saying that I disagree with current web standards,
just that it would be foolish to think that they are *definitive*.

As professionals, it is our responsibility to be reflective
practitioners: to question the status quo and make sure it's really
working. We can't do that without asking questions, or without
listening to people who ask questions.

The web is still an incredibly young medium and anyone who imagines
that the standards we have today will apply to the web of tomorrow
(I'm thinking of about a 10 year away tomorrow) would be naive.

L.


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Re: [WSG] add to favorites?

2009-03-25 Thread Nathan de Vries

On 26/03/2009, at 11:37 AM, Andrew Maben wrote:
To address your argument, you appear (as does OP) to be confused as  
to the context of user benefit, call to action.


I'm not at all confused as to what a user benefit is. You may have  
decided for yourself that websites have no place crossing the  
conservative browser-site line you've drawn in the sand, but you must  
concede that others may be more liberal when drawing the same line. I  
personally believe that websites provide context to the browser,  
context that website authors can leverage to inform their user. Adding  
a browser bookmark might have a specific benefit for your website,  
which when described may make more sense to your user than the  
abstract task of performing the task on their own. For example, a  
weather site may explain the benefits of bookmarking the site in terms  
of having ready access to the weather. Why not provide the  
functionality (if available) to add the bookmark then and there? You  
never know, other vendors might recognise the user-benefit and  
standardise the behavior!


Likewise, RSS/Atom feed subscription functionality in the browser is  
very abstract. To me, let me know when Andrew adds new photos to this  
album makes more sense than subscribe to RSS 2.0. To laymen, the  
distinction is potentially more so.


As for your second paragraph, apart from affording you the  
opportunity to offer a completely gratuitous insult, and while  
broadly true it is entirely irrelevant to the question at hand.


The question was whether or not the use of proprietary browser  
functionality forced all users to use those proprietary functions,  
which to me is a highly relevant question. To be clear, I don't think  
that the use of proprietary functionality forces anything on anyone  
when used appropriately. Appropriately being the key word there, and  
where people such as you and I may sometimes disagree.



Cheers,

Nathan de Vries


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RE: [WSG] add to favorites?

2009-03-25 Thread Rick Faircloth
hug

 group

 include template=Ewen.Hill

/hug

 

:o)

 

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of ewen.h...@dhs.vic.gov.au
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 9:07 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] add to favorites?

 


Any more and the thread will be closed. 

Please!!!
  

Regards, 

Ewen Hill , Project Manager, Web Communications Unit
Department of Human Services, Level 16, 50 Lonsdale Street Melbourne
Victoria 3000 


_

 

This email contains confidential information intended only for the person
named above and may be subject to legal privilege. If you are not the
intended recipient, any disclosure, copying or use of this information is
prohibited. The Department provides no guarantee that this communication is
free of virus or that it has not been intercepted or interfered with. If you
have received this email in error or have any other concerns regarding its
transmission, please notify postmas...@dhs.vic.gov.au


_

 


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Re: Who's responsible (was Re: [WSG] add to favorites?)

2009-03-25 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

Rick Faircloth wrote:

Wow...10 years from now...as fast as change occurs these
days, who knows what things will be like then!


Blind people flying around with jetpacks ;)

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]

www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com | http://flickr.com/photos/redux/
__
Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
__


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Re: [WSG] add to favorites? - ADMIN - KEEP IT POLITE PLEASE

2009-03-25 Thread Al Sparber

From: Rick Faircloth r...@whitestonemedia.com


huggroup/hug

Sorry that tag isn't to standard... ;o)


Read Russ's DOCTYPE :-)


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Re: Who's responsible (was Re: [WSG] add to favorites?)

2009-03-25 Thread nedlud
So true.

But how long has the WG been working on HTML5? And assuming anyone
ever reaches consensus on that, how long until browsers start
supporting it in wide enough numbers for it to be a practical
alternative for developers?

Technology can change fast, but in the world of web, it can take some
time for those changes to be felt.

The web will be different enough in 2-3 years, but I imagine 10 years
from now will be a complete paradigm shift. It was only ~10 years ago
when table based layouts were best practice, and today forums like
this would cheerfully roast anyone for even suggesting such a thing.
(Actually I've seen people get flamed here for suggesting *any* use of
a table, including for showing tabular data ;) )

L.


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Re: Who's responsible (was Re: [WSG] add to favorites?)

2009-03-25 Thread tee


On Mar 25, 2009, at 6:39 PM, Patrick H. Lauke wrote:


Rick Faircloth wrote:

Wow...10 years from now...as fast as change occurs these
days, who knows what things will be like then!


Blind people flying around with jetpacks ;)


It will be just  like in the Star Trek Voyager, that Tom Paris  found  
a  space shuttle which has a neurogenic interface that interacts  
directly with the driver's thoughts :-)


And no, it will not named Alice, it likely will be named Rick.

tee


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Re: Who's responsible (was Re: [WSG] add to favorites?) - ADMIN THREAD CLOSED

2009-03-25 Thread Russ Weakley
ADMIN THREAD CLOSED




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Re: [WSG] add to favorites? ADMIN THREAD CLOSED

2009-03-25 Thread Russ Weakley
ADMIN THREAD CLOSED





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RE: Who's responsible (was Re: [WSG] add to favorites?)

2009-03-25 Thread Rick Faircloth
Cool!  They'll have implants and better vision
than organically-sighted people!


-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On 
Behalf Of Patrick H. Lauke
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 9:40 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: Who's responsible (was Re: [WSG] add to favorites?)

Rick Faircloth wrote:
 Wow...10 years from now...as fast as change occurs these
 days, who knows what things will be like then!

Blind people flying around with jetpacks ;)

P
-- 
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]

www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com | http://flickr.com/photos/redux/
__
Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
__


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