Re: [WSG] designing for handheld

2007-08-05 Thread Stuart Foulstone
Hi,

You could try the cellphone emulator at:

http://mtld.mobi/emulator.php

for an idea on rendition on cellphones.


On Sun, August 5, 2007 4:01 am, Tee G. Peng wrote:


 I never see a website in a handheld device (my cellphone allows me to
 brows the internet but I am unwilling to test it as I don't know how
 much it will cost when the bill arrives ...

 tee


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Re: [WSG] designing for handheld

2007-08-05 Thread Tee G. Peng


On Aug 5, 2007, at 12:45 AM, Stuart Foulstone wrote:


Hi,

You could try the cellphone emulator at:

http://mtld.mobi/emulator.php

for an idea on rendition on cellphones.


Stuart,

Do you know how accurate the renditionis for this emulator? And  
compare with Opera Mini and other simulators.


I tested  couple of sites I did on Opera mini and the DM device  
center last night, the results are quite acculate and with  some 5%  
differences between Opera mini and the device center, mainly the  
paddings left/right  issue. I am actually suprised and pleased to  
know over 70% of the sites I did so far, already render well  
(provided what I saw are truly what I saw) in handheld devices even  
without a different stylesheet for mobile. Even with the 3 column  
layout in Pixel, it shows the first column, scroll down to the bottom  
of first column, there following the second column, then the third.


But with this mobi emulator, what I see is, the site shrinks  
porpotionally, like the IE 7 and Opera zoom  feature does. I didn't  
download the iphony yesterday, but decided to try it when writing  
this message, and see that my sites are all shrink porportionally  
like the mobi emulator does (mini-my-site version:) ), so does the  
thiess kentz site John showed (I see he has a handheld stylesheet in  
the header).


So which emulators (simulators) are correct?

tee


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Re: [WSG] designing for handheld

2007-08-05 Thread John Faulds

So which emulators (simulators) are correct?


They probably all are but just as Opera renders differently from IE6 on a  
desktop, Opera Mini (or Mobile) renders differently from other mobile  
browsers. In fact, there's more difference among mobile browsers than  
there is desktop browsers and most of them don't recognise handheld  
stylesheets.


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Re: [WSG] designing for handheld

2007-08-05 Thread Kit Grose

So which emulators (simulators) are correct?


As John said, phone browsers vary as much (actually, more) than their  
desktop counterparts.


On the phone, there are a few different environments I'd test in:
1. Safari (WebKit is the primary browser on Nokia S60 devices, as  
well as the iPhone of course. There are some compatibility  
differences, but it's the best way to check, short of actually using  
the device)
2. Opera Mini (has quite significant market penetration on mobile  
devices. I believe I read somewhere that it was the number 1 browser,  
but that may not be true)
3. IE on a Windows Mobile device. I have no idea how to test this  
other than on the device itself. I'm not aware of how it differs with  
IE/Win.


The other thing that's important to check is that you're developing a  
handheld stylesheet, but not relying on it. MobileSafari on the  
iPhone, for instance, uses screen stylesheets and ignores the  
handheld one entirely. I believe Opera Mini has that as a capability,  
too.


Hope that helps,

Kit


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Re: [WSG] designing for handheld

2007-08-05 Thread Michael MD
As John said, phone browsers vary as much (actually, more) than their 
desktop counterparts.


much more actually ...



On the phone, there are a few different environments I'd test in:
1. Safari (WebKit is the primary browser on Nokia S60 devices, as  well as 
the iPhone of course. There are some compatibility  differences, but it's 
the best way to check, short of actually using  the device)
2. Opera Mini (has quite significant market penetration on mobile 
devices. I believe I read somewhere that it was the number 1 browser,  but 
that may not be true)
3. IE on a Windows Mobile device. I have no idea how to test this  other 
than on the device itself. I'm not aware of how it differs with  IE/Win.




Those are the high-end of mobile browsers ...
Currently only a small proportion of phone browsers in actual use out there 
would be using those.


What about UP-Browser, etc?
... and those rather limited and very diverse browsers that come with phones 
... phone users are more likely to be using the phone's built-in browser 
than something they have to install themselves such as Opera Mini.


If the only mobile devices you are seeing in your logs are the high-end ones 
you mentioned perhaps it is because it is not really a truly mobile-friendly 
site!


The way to go for phones made in the last few years is mobile xhtml - 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XHTML_Mobile_Profile

- if you want to support older phones you will need a wml version as well.
(you will need both wml and xhtml versions because some of the newer phones 
no longer support wml and many old phones ONLY support wml - yes its a 
standards nightmare!)


Remember that phone users are usually using very small screens - keep 
navigation simple - and try to avoid creating situations where the user has 
to spend a lot of time scrolling to get to what they want!
also - try to break long pages up into small ones (some older phones will 
not handle long pages due to memory restrictions)


Avoid using flash or javascript - not many phones in current use support 
those!


some links that may be useful:

http://www.openmobilealliance.org/
http://developer.openwave.com/
http://www.forum.nokia.com/
http://wurfl.sourceforge.net/
http://www.nttdocomo.co.jp/english/p_s/imode/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireless_Markup_Language










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Re: [WSG] designing for handheld

2007-08-05 Thread Nick Cowie
Tee asked

 So which emulators (simulators) are correct?


Which one of the 30+ mobile web browsers are you trying to emulate?

There are many different browsers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microbrowser#Popular_mobile_browsers  and even
different versions of the same browser that render pages differently.

The only one I would give a good chance of emulating on a desktop almost
perfectly every time is Opera Mini, because how it works.  You request a
page, a proxy retrieves that page and then serves you some of the content it
believes will display correctly on your java midlet opera mini. As the proxy
server does all the work and the java midlet will run on most phones, PCs
and even embedded in webpages unchanged. You should always get the same
results.

Opera Mobile is rumoured to be about a version behind Opera Desktop. So in
theory the current Opera mobile renders like Opera 8 or 8.5? Of course some
things will be a little different, I have done minimal testing and Opera
Mobile and Opera do render similar.

Which version of Safari matches which of the 4 major releases of the S60
browser? Don't know have not been able to test, I don't own a Nokia.

Internet Explorer Mobile bears about as much resemblance to IE/Win as IE/Mac
does to IE/Win, they are quite different creatures. IEM I am using uses
different subset of XHTML and CSS, XHTML-MP and WCSS that the IE/Win. IEM
also has a few different versions, I upgraded my Windows Mobile 5 a few
months back and IEM went from unusable to as usable as Opera Mobile for me.

Personally other than Opera Mini, I don't think you have a hope of testing
in an emulator and getting the right result.

The bad news is you will need a heap of mobile devices, with a variety of
different versions of the same software to be able to test a website to
render is the most common browsers. Or build a very simple mobile version of
the site.

Nick



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http://nickcowie.com


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[WSG] designing for handheld

2007-08-04 Thread Tee G. Peng
Hi, a project I'd been working, client asks if I can port the layout  
for handheld devices. Current layout is pixel width with every pixel  
carefully culculaated in different sections/columns, so there is no  
way I can simply adapt the style sheet. At this stage, it's simply an  
inquiry from client whether I am competent to do the stylesheet for  
handheld devices. I am very keen on getting my hand dirty even it  
means sacrify a candle light dinner at a romantic soothing restaurant  
on Sunday night. I have never done layout specifically for handheld  
devices, think this is a great opportunity, but I don't know how much  
complication (apart from learning curve) it involves. The articles  
and books involving with buildibg accessibily websites that I read  
all these years, some of them touched the handheld devices but no  
much, and I don't think I remember all I have read.


First and core question: structure wise, is it just a matter to  
making the layout liquid? I happened to  download the Adobe   
Dreamweaver CS3 trial version last week, and see that it has 'preview  
in device center' that covers many brand of handhelds, with many  
different models and display sizes. The layout (3 columns) I  
mentioned here doesn't break, it displays first column, second column  
and the third vertically. It appears that layout intergrity doesn't  
suffer except herhaps differnt margins/paddings needed. Does this  
means I have the basic covered?


If you have done sites for handheld devices, could you be so kind  
post it here so that I can take a look and perhaps study your style  
sheet. Recommendation on building accessible sites for handheld  
devices also welcome.


Thank you!

tee


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Re: [WSG] designing for handheld

2007-08-04 Thread John Faulds
The only site I've done with a handheld stylesheet is:  
http://www.thiesskentz.com.au/


As far as testing goes, not sure how reliable DW's previews would be  
considering how bad their design view is.


Other testing options include:

http://www.operamini.com/demo/
http://www.operamini.com/beta/simulator/
http://developer.openwave.com/dvl/tools_and_sdk/phone_simulator/
http://www.marketcircle.com/iphoney/ (Mac only)


On Sun, 05 Aug 2007 11:18:55 +1000, Tee G. Peng [EMAIL PROTECTED]  
wrote:


Hi, a project I'd been working, client asks if I can port the layout for  
handheld devices. Current layout is pixel width with every pixel  
carefully culculaated in different sections/columns, so there is no way  
I can simply adapt the style sheet. At this stage, it's simply an  
inquiry from client whether I am competent to do the stylesheet for  
handheld devices. I am very keen on getting my hand dirty even it means  
sacrify a candle light dinner at a romantic soothing restaurant on  
Sunday night. I have never done layout specifically for handheld  
devices, think this is a great opportunity, but I don't know how much  
complication (apart from learning curve) it involves. The articles and  
books involving with buildibg accessibily websites that I read all these  
years, some of them touched the handheld devices but no much, and I  
don't think I remember all I have read.


First and core question: structure wise, is it just a matter to making  
the layout liquid? I happened to  download the Adobe  Dreamweaver CS3  
trial version last week, and see that it has 'preview in device center'  
that covers many brand of handhelds, with many different models and  
display sizes. The layout (3 columns) I mentioned here doesn't break, it  
displays first column, second column and the third vertically. It  
appears that layout intergrity doesn't suffer except herhaps differnt  
margins/paddings needed. Does this means I have the basic covered?


If you have done sites for handheld devices, could you be so kind post  
it here so that I can take a look and perhaps study your style sheet.  
Recommendation on building accessible sites for handheld devices also  
welcome.


Thank you!

tee


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Re: [WSG] designing for handheld

2007-08-04 Thread Tee G. Peng


On Aug 4, 2007, at 6:42 PM, John Faulds wrote:

The only site I've done with a handheld stylesheet is: http:// 
www.thiesskentz.com.au/


As far as testing goes, not sure how reliable DW's previews would  
be considering how bad their design view is.


Other testing options include:

http://www.operamini.com/demo/
http://www.operamini.com/beta/simulator/
http://developer.openwave.com/dvl/tools_and_sdk/phone_simulator/
http://www.marketcircle.com/iphoney/ (Mac only)


Hi John, thank you so much for the response. I ran the site in Opera  
Mini and a few from DW Device Center, it renders quite closely. The  
obvious different is that there are two Thiess Kents logo, one big,  
one small, the small one overlapping the Engineers  Constructors   
Opera Mini puts the horizontal menu in a tree menu with a +  
(expand) icon, is this how you set the mobile stylesheet renders it?  
Padding left are gone for paragrahy and heading elements in the  
Device center (just like my pixel perfect three cols layout).


I never see a website in a handheld device (my cellphone allows me to  
brows the internet but I am unwilling to test it as I don't know how  
much it will cost when the bill arrives ), therefor willing to give a  
benefit of doubt for the Adobe DM Device Center.


tee


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RE: [WSG] designing for handheld

2007-08-04 Thread Andrew Boyd
Hi Tee,

as well as Opera Mini 3.n, it is probably worth trying the Opera Mini 4 beta 
http://www.operamini.com/beta/ - I use both to test blog templates, as 4 beta 
renders closer to a desktop browser (desktop browser with magnifier, anyhow).

Just on the mobile browsing experience - Ryan Healy of 
http://employeeevolution.com/ uses the WP Mobile Edition plugin that renders a 
very navigable site when viewed from small format browsers (but doh! forgets to 
include an RSS link out of the box).

My guess is that portable/handheld browsing is going to become more of an issue 
rather than less as time goes by - anyone have any thoughts around this?

Cheers, Andrew

Andrew Boyd
Consultant
SMS Management  Technology

M 0413 048 542
T +61 2 6279 7100
F +61 2 6279 7101
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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www.smsmt.com
SMS Management  Technology (SMS) [ASX:SMX] is Australia's largest, publicly 
listed Management Services company. We solve complex problems and transform 
business through Consulting, People and Technology

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tee G. Peng [EMAIL 
PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, 5 August 2007 1:01 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] designing for handheld

On Aug 4, 2007, at 6:42 PM, John Faulds wrote:

 The only site I've done with a handheld stylesheet is: http://
 www.thiesskentz.com.au/

 As far as testing goes, not sure how reliable DW's previews would
 be considering how bad their design view is.

 Other testing options include:

 http://www.operamini.com/demo/
 http://www.operamini.com/beta/simulator/
 http://developer.openwave.com/dvl/tools_and_sdk/phone_simulator/
 http://www.marketcircle.com/iphoney/ (Mac only)


Hi John, thank you so much for the response. I ran the site in Opera
Mini and a few from DW Device Center, it renders quite closely. The
obvious different is that there are two Thiess Kents logo, one big,
one small, the small one overlapping the Engineers  Constructors
Opera Mini puts the horizontal menu in a tree menu with a +
(expand) icon, is this how you set the mobile stylesheet renders it?
Padding left are gone for paragrahy and heading elements in the
Device center (just like my pixel perfect three cols layout).

I never see a website in a handheld device (my cellphone allows me to
brows the internet but I am unwilling to test it as I don't know how
much it will cost when the bill arrives ), therefor willing to give a
benefit of doubt for the Adobe DM Device Center.

tee


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Re: [WSG] designing for handheld

2007-08-04 Thread John Faulds
The obvious different is that there are two Thiess Kents logo, one  
big, one small, the small one overlapping the Engineers   
Constructors


Actually, that was an oversight on my part. It's fixed now. Thanks!

You can also get an idea of what your site will looked like on handhelds  
using Opera desktop: just hit Shift + F11 to go into small screen  
rendering mode.


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