RE: [WSG] hr / or CSS3 Border Background

2009-08-10 Thread Chris Taylor
Hi,

tee said:
 However, seeing that HTML 5 has given hr tag  a new purpose:
 http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#the-hr-element
 http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#flow-content-0

 quote:
 The hr element represents a paragraph-level thematic break, e.g. a
 scene change in a story, or a transition to another topic within a
 section of a reference book.

In HTML5 doesn't the section element do that job? To be honest, I've always 
felt hr seems a strange element to use in any circumstance.

Chris


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Re: [WSG] hr / or CSS3 Border Background

2009-08-10 Thread David Hucklesby

Chris Taylor wrote:

Hi,

tee said:
However, seeing that HTML 5 has given hr tag  a new purpose: 
http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#the-hr-element 
http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#flow-content-0


quote: The hr element represents a paragraph-level thematic break,
e.g. a scene change in a story, or a transition to another topic
within a section of a reference book.


In HTML5 doesn't the section element do that job? To be honest,
I've always felt hr seems a strange element to use in any
circumstance.



Well, I work arse-backwards from the way most books on Web design
approach things. I gather content first, then mark it up with HTML so
that it reads sensibly without CSS, only then adding structural elements
and CSS. In that context, it sometimes make sense to add HR elements...

Cordially,
David
--



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Re: [WSG] hr / or CSS3 Border Background

2009-08-09 Thread David Dorward


On 9 Aug 2009, at 03:53, tee wrote:

Then my question, what about those who prefer to stick with XHTML?


By Stick with XHTML do you mean not to move to an unstable, draft  
markup language? Plenty of people are happily writing HTML 4.01 and  
avoiding the pain of Appendix C.



The hr tag is deprecated.



Which specification deprecated it?

--
David Dorward
http://dorward.me.uk



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Re: [WSG] hr / or CSS3 Border Background

2009-08-09 Thread Ben Buchanan
After reading the following article, I ask which is more semantic, using the
 hr / element with a background or using the CSS3 border background
 property?

Well... markup has semantics/semantic meaning, CSS is style applied over the
top but is not part of the document's content. Applying the graphic with CSS
only means you are saying it's purely visual and not part of the content at
all... and I don't think that's what you really intend.
So if you are communicating a break in content (which is the semantically
meaningful concept), include the hr / even if you then hide it and display
a border when CSS is applied. On my blog I do just that, with hr
class=hidden /
and
.hidden {
position: absolute;
left: -5000px;
width: 4000px;
overflow: hidden;
}

I should really change the class to assistive as it's not actually
hidden from everybody, but that's a finer point. Anyway, with the HRs
hidden from view with CSS I then have a design with very clear breaks in the
content, which is a visual representation of the underlying semantics.
cheers,
Ben


-- 
--- http://weblog.200ok.com.au/
--- The future has arrived; it's just not
--- evenly distributed. - William Gibson


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Re: [WSG] hr / or CSS3 Border Background

2009-08-09 Thread tee


On Aug 9, 2009, at 1:36 AM, David Dorward wrote:



On 9 Aug 2009, at 03:53, tee wrote:

Then my question, what about those who prefer to stick with XHTML?


By Stick with XHTML do you mean not to move to an unstable, draft  
markup language? Plenty of people are happily writing HTML 4.01 and  
avoiding the pain of Appendix C.



But isn't it going to have XHTML2 as well?
I am not a pioneer but a over-work, over exhausted web worker who  
barely keep up with latest technology, so I do not study HTML5 nor  
XHTML2 like many of you do. I do pay attention when I see articles  
regarding HTML 5 surface in many blog-dom in the past month.


There are CMS that rely on XML (one I know and work on every day is  
the Magento) and this caught my eyes sometimes ago:


Things HTML5 does not do:
• Does not favor XML facilities (what does this mean?  What impact  
will it have for sites that were built in XHTML strict and CMS that  
parse XML (not just the RSS feed)? )

• Does not avoid scripting
• Does not consider integration with the SemWeb a priority (and what  
does this mean? Is SemWeb semantic web? Both Yahoo and Google  
adapted Semantic Web, what impact will it have for SEO?)

• No arbitrary namespaces.

Things XHTML2 does not do
• Does not support existing contention the same way that HTML5 does
• Does not precisely define UA behavior
• Does not handle errors non-draconically (uses catch fire and fail  
error handling)

• No arbitrary namespaces.

So, people like me who are in the web development, but our well-being  
are on the mercy of you pioneers, HTML5, XHTML2.0 authors and W3C's ,  
I have had this question since the first time I read about HTML5 draft  
years ago from this list, that there had long been battles between  
html 4.0 strict and XHTML strict, none are perfect and those who  
favored XHTML led some believe this is the future of web standards and  
I stick to it and I am not alone. Since none are perfect, now you guys  
were moving forward, working hard to bringing a whole new standards to  
us, why can't the HTML5 and XHTML2.0 working group just give us ONE  
standards?


Thus far the impression I got from many articles I have read, is that  
HTML5 will be the standards, is better. Is that right?


Sorry, I am not being sarcastic here. And I don't suppose this is a  
Mac Vs PC kind of choice that you pick what works best for you, or  
choose to use Opera or Google Chrome or Firefox.





The hr tag is deprecated.



Which specification deprecated it?


This is what I learned:
All presentation attributes of the hr element were deprecated in  
HTML 4.01, and are not supported in XHTML 1.0 Strict DTD.




In gassho,

tee

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Re: [WSG] hr / or CSS3 Border Background

2009-08-09 Thread Stuart Foulstone


On Sun, August 9, 2009 3:53 am, tee wrote:


...

 However, seeing that HTML 5 has given hr tag  a new purpose:
 http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#the-hr-element
 http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#flow-content-0

 quote:
 The hr element represents a paragraph-level thematic break, e.g. a
 scene change in a story, or a transition to another topic within a
 section of a reference book.


 So the decision is  circumstantial, sometime you  use hr, and
 sometimes use CSS 3 border background property.

 Then my question, what about those who prefer to stick with XHTML? The
 hr tag is deprecated.

 In gassho,
 tee


When the hr tag is not used as a purely visual element (which is bad
practice), it separates two distinct pieces of content but gives no
information about their relationship.

hr / deprecated in XHTML and the correct mark-up is to use a header
which helps to help define that relationship.





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Re: [WSG] hr / or CSS3 Border Background

2009-08-09 Thread David Dorward


On 9 Aug 2009, at 10:38, tee wrote:


On Aug 9, 2009, at 1:36 AM, David Dorward wrote:



On 9 Aug 2009, at 03:53, tee wrote:

Then my question, what about those who prefer to stick with XHTML?


By Stick with XHTML do you mean not to move to an unstable,  
draft markup language? Plenty of people are happily writing HTML  
4.01 and avoiding the pain of Appendix C.



But isn't it going to have XHTML2 as well?


Given that the XHTML working group is being wound up — it seems  
unlikely. Whatever 'it' is.



Things HTML5 does not do:
• Does not favor XML facilities (what does this mean?  What impact  
will it have for sites that were built in XHTML strict and CMS that  
parse XML (not just the RSS feed)? )


Rubbish. It has an XML serialization.


• Does not avoid scripting


What does this mean? Scripting has its place.

• Does not consider integration with the SemWeb a priority (and what  
does this mean? Is SemWeb semantic web? Both Yahoo and Google  
adapted Semantic Web, what impact will it have for SEO?)


The relationships to RDFa and other semweb technologies are some of  
the more unstable parts of the HTML 5 draft.


So, people like me who are in the web development, but our well- 
being are on the mercy of you pioneers, HTML5, XHTML2.0 authors and  
W3C's


If you don't like it. Participate in the process.

http://www.w3.org/html/wg/

--
David Dorward
http://dorward.me.uk



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Re: [WSG] hr / or CSS3 Border Background

2009-08-09 Thread David Dorward

Sorry, I missed this bit when I last responded.

On 9 Aug 2009, at 10:38, tee wrote:


Which specification deprecated it?


This is what I learned:
All presentation attributes of the hr element were deprecated in  
HTML 4.01


Deprecating some attributes on an element does not deprecate the  
element itself.


--
David Dorward
http://dorward.me.uk



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[WSG] hr / or CSS3 Border Background

2009-08-08 Thread Bushidodeep

Hi,

After reading the following article, I ask which is more semantic,  
using the hr / element with a background or using the CSS3 border  
background property?


C


http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2008/09/09/the-hr-contest-results-download-your-fresh-hr-line-now/ 








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Re: [WSG] hr / or CSS3 Border Background

2009-08-08 Thread tee



On Aug 8, 2009, at 7:05 PM, Bushidodeep wrote:


Hi,

After reading the following article, I ask which is more semantic,  
using the hr / element with a background or using the CSS3 border  
background property?


C


http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2008/09/09/the-hr-contest-results-download-your-fresh-hr-line-now/ 





I never use hr tag, find it unsemantical and redundant. Before CSS3 is  
fully supported by all important browsers, the semantic way I use is  
utilizing one of the existing div or type selector.


Site like smashing magazine feeds hype which is unhelpful for web  
standards and accessibility–but this is what the site's purpose is:  
vanity, kitsch and hype. Oops, I hope the site owner isn't a member  
here :-)


However, seeing that HTML 5 has given hr tag  a new purpose:
http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#the-hr-element
http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#flow-content-0

quote:
The hr element represents a paragraph-level thematic break, e.g. a  
scene change in a story, or a transition to another topic within a  
section of a reference book.



So the decision is  circumstantial, sometime you  use hr, and  
sometimes use CSS 3 border background property.


Then my question, what about those who prefer to stick with XHTML? The  
hr tag is deprecated.


In gassho,
tee




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Re: [WSG] hr / or CSS3 Border Background

2009-08-08 Thread dwain
On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 9:05 PM, Bushidodeep field.ni...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hi,

 After reading the following article, I ask which is more semantic, using
 the hr / element with a background or using the CSS3 border background
 property?

 C


 
 http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2008/09/09/the-hr-contest-results-download-your-fresh-hr-line-now/
 




the way i see it, is if you are separating content, then use the hr/
element.  i ran across this question when updating my site and got positive
response for the hr/ because i was separating content from other portions
of the page.  consider your borders if someone surfs with css turned off.
in fact, consider your design gone with css turned off.

cheers,
dwain

-- 
Fear of the devil is one way of doubting God.   - Kahlil Gibran


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Re: [WSG] hr / or CSS3 Border Background

2009-08-08 Thread Bushidodeep

Hi,

Thanks, SMASH has some good contributions. As with any resource,  
absorb what is useful, reject the useless. Does any

DOM conditional exist for checking CSS3 support in user agents?

C





On Aug 8, 2009, at 7:53 PM, tee wrote:



On Aug 8, 2009, at 7:05 PM, Bushidodeep wrote:


Hi,

After reading the following article, I ask which is more semantic,  
using the hr / element with a background or using the CSS3 border  
background property?


C


http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2008/09/09/the-hr-contest-results-download-your-fresh-hr-line-now/ 





I never use hr tag, find it unsemantical and redundant. Before CSS3  
is fully supported by all important browsers, the semantic way I use  
is utilizing one of the existing div or type selector.


Site like smashing magazine feeds hype which is unhelpful for web  
standards and accessibility–but this is what the site's purpose is:  
vanity, kitsch and hype. Oops, I hope the site owner isn't a member  
here :-)


However, seeing that HTML 5 has given hr tag  a new purpose:
http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#the-hr-element
http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#flow-content-0

quote:
The hr element represents a paragraph-level thematic break, e.g. a  
scene change in a story, or a transition to another topic within a  
section of a reference book.



So the decision is  circumstantial, sometime you  use hr, and  
sometimes use CSS 3 border background property.


Then my question, what about those who prefer to stick with XHTML?  
The hr tag is deprecated.


In gassho,
tee




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