Re: [WSG] legal list numbering

2009-08-26 Thread Paul Novitski

At 8/25/2009 10:11 PM, Andrew Harris wrote:

How do people get around the problem of marking up ordered lists in
legal documents, such as policies or terms and conditions?

A typical structure might look like:

1 blah blah blah
1.1 blah blah blah
1.2 blah blah blah
1.2.1 blah blah blah
1.2.2 blah blah blah
1.3 blah blah blah
2 blah blah blah
2.1 blah blah blah
2.1.1 blah blah blah*



In all of the discussions of this issue I've read, the final wisdom 
has been to actually hard-code the numbering of contracts, bylaws, 
etc. in nested lists, suppressing the normal list-style-type. That 
might seem retro, but you can't afford to have any of the numbering 
change because of an editing error. The whole point behind 
auto-numbering is thoughtless re-numbering, something a legal 
document cannot tolerate. It would be better to have an 
accidentally-deleted item leave a hole in the numbering that a 
proofreader could easily catch than to have HTML automatically close 
up the numbering sequentially over such an elision.


Another advantage is that the numbering is manifest in the markup 
itself, rather than being a sequence of bare LIs. Someone can snip an 
excerpt from the markup with the numbering intact. (In this vein, 
implementing the numbering of a contract with JavaScript sounds about 
as smart as printing the contract on sheets of ice.)


This decision is made easier, of course, by the limited 
auto-numbering options of HTML!


Justification for hard-coding the numbering from a semantic 
perspective is that the numbering is actually integral to the content 
and not merely an incidental by-product of its sequence in the 
greater list. I believe the logic is that once the legal document is 
finalized, an item's number becomes part of its fixed name used in 
quoting and references and a great weight of legality rests on the 
accuracy and persistence of the numbering.


Of course, when you're drafting a contract it's handy to use 
auto-numbering in word processing, but once you get to the final 
draft stage I'd freeze it for HTML.


Regards,

Paul
__

Paul Novitski
Juniper Webcraft Ltd.
http://juniperwebcraft.com 




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Re: [WSG] legal list numbering

2009-08-26 Thread kwillems
For an example how to solve this take a look at 
http://www.regels-stadskanaal.nl
It's an online archieve of the legislation of the city of Stadskanaal 
in the Netherlands.


As you can see i've moved the nummers of the listitems to the content 
of the documents.


Koen Willems

Citeren Andrew Harris and...@woowoowoo.com:


How do people get around the problem of marking up ordered lists in
legal documents, such as policies or terms and conditions?

A typical structure might look like:

1 blah blah blah
   1.1 blah blah blah
   1.2 blah blah blah
   1.2.1 blah blah blah
   1.2.2 blah blah blah
   1.3 blah blah blah
2 blah blah blah
   2.1 blah blah blah
   2.1.1 blah blah blah*

I've seen a variety of convoluted javascript and CSS methods, but
they're all hacks for what is essentially a pretty logical
structure... nested ordered lists!

I have to admit, I haven't even checked whether this is addressed in html 5.

* BTW: I've read lots of legal documents and I reckon the text can
mostly be replaced with blah blah blah without affecting their
meaning.

--
Andrew Harris
and...@woowoowoo.com
http://www.woowoowoo.com

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Re: [WSG] legal list numbering

2009-08-26 Thread Jason Grant
This isn't a problem at all. It's a simple thing to do in HTML. Example:
ol
 liBlah Blah/li
 liBlah Blah/li
 liBlah Blah
  ol
   liBlah Blah/li
   liBlah Blah/li
   liBlah Blah
  ol
  liBlah blah/li
  liBlah blah/li
  liBlah blah/li
  /ol
   /li
  /ol
 /li
/ol

Thanks,

Jason
On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 1:33 PM, kwill...@zonnet.nl wrote:

 For an example how to solve this take a look at
 http://www.regels-stadskanaal.nl
 It's an online archieve of the legislation of the city of Stadskanaal in
 the Netherlands.

 As you can see i've moved the nummers of the listitems to the content of
 the documents.

 Koen Willems

 Citeren Andrew Harris and...@woowoowoo.com:

  How do people get around the problem of marking up ordered lists in
 legal documents, such as policies or terms and conditions?

 A typical structure might look like:

 1 blah blah blah
   1.1 blah blah blah
   1.2 blah blah blah
   1.2.1 blah blah blah
   1.2.2 blah blah blah
   1.3 blah blah blah
 2 blah blah blah
   2.1 blah blah blah
   2.1.1 blah blah blah*

 I've seen a variety of convoluted javascript and CSS methods, but
 they're all hacks for what is essentially a pretty logical
 structure... nested ordered lists!

 I have to admit, I haven't even checked whether this is addressed in html
 5.

 * BTW: I've read lots of legal documents and I reckon the text can
 mostly be replaced with blah blah blah without affecting their
 meaning.

 --
 Andrew Harris
 and...@woowoowoo.com
 http://www.woowoowoo.com

 ~~~ * ~~~


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www.flexewebs.com
ja...@flexewebs.com
+44 (0)7748 591 770
Company no.: 5587469

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Re: [WSG] legal list numbering

2009-08-26 Thread James O'Neill
This straight OL does not work from a pure XHTML 1.0 Strict perspective
unless your legal documents conform to the browsers' default list numbering
scheme.
The *'type'*  attribute is not valid in XHTML 1.0 which really annoys me to
no end, since I work for a county government. The numbering in a legal
document is an integral part of the pages' content and should not be left to
the determination of the CSS, because once you separate the CSS from the
XHTML the list's numbering is not valid and much of the use and meaning for
the document is lost.

I am not sure, but I expect that HTML5 has a similar issue. Correct me if I
am wrong. I hope I am.

Jim

On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 08:16, Jason Grant ja...@flexewebs.com wrote:

 This isn't a problem at all. It's a simple thing to do in HTML. Example:
 ol
  liBlah Blah/li
  liBlah Blah/li
  liBlah Blah
   ol
liBlah Blah/li
liBlah Blah/li
liBlah Blah
   ol
   liBlah blah/li
   liBlah blah/li
   liBlah blah/li
   /ol
/li
   /ol
  /li
 /ol

 Thanks,

 Jason



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Re: [WSG] legal list numbering

2009-08-26 Thread Antony Gr.
This isn't work correctly: 'counter-reset' and other CSS styles for
this nested lists not supported by IE.

2009/8/26 Jason Grant ja...@flexewebs.com:
 This isn't a problem at all. It's a simple thing to do in HTML. Example:
 ol
      liBlah Blah/li
      liBlah Blah/li
      liBlah Blah
           ol
                liBlah Blah/li
                liBlah Blah/li
                liBlah Blah
                       ol
                               liBlah blah/li
                               liBlah blah/li
                               liBlah blah/li
                       /ol
                /li
           /ol
      /li
 /ol

 Thanks,
 Jason
 On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 1:33 PM, kwill...@zonnet.nl wrote:
 --
 Jason Grant BSc, MSc
 CEO, Flexewebs Ltd.
 www.flexewebs.com
 ja...@flexewebs.com
 +44 (0)7748 591 770
 Company no.: 5587469

 www.flexewebs.com/semantix
 www.twitter.com/flexewebs
 www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs

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Re: [WSG] legal list numbering

2009-08-26 Thread Jason Grant
Anthony - what's there to 'understand'? This is the semantically correct way
to mark up this particular set of data.
Simple as.
By all means you should be able to style up looking pixel perfect the same
across any browser under the Sun.
Cheers,
Jason

On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 3:04 PM, Antony Gr. ant.grak...@gmail.com wrote:

 IE not understand this. You don't agree?

 2009/8/26 Jason Grant ja...@flexewebs.com:
  Inspect the TOC of this page and see that the markup I used is
 essentially
  correct.
  The difference is that they wrote the numbers down into the page (i.e.
 1.1,
  4.11, 5., etc.)
  http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/
  If unsure, use a W3C page as a reference point :-)
  Cheers,
  Jason
 
 
 
 
  --
  Jason Grant BSc, MSc
  CEO, Flexewebs Ltd.
  www.flexewebs.com
  ja...@flexewebs.com
  +44 (0)7748 591 770
  Company no.: 5587469
 
  www.flexewebs.com/semantix
  www.twitter.com/flexewebs
  www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs
 
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-- 
Jason Grant BSc, MSc
CEO, Flexewebs Ltd.
www.flexewebs.com
ja...@flexewebs.com
+44 (0)7748 591 770
Company no.: 5587469

www.flexewebs.com/semantix
www.twitter.com/flexewebs
www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs


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Re: [WSG] legal list numbering

2009-08-26 Thread Jason Grant
Inspect the TOC of this page and see that the markup I used is essentially
correct. The difference is that they wrote the numbers down into the page
(i.e. 1.1, 4.11, 5., etc.)

http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/

If unsure, use a W3C page as a reference point :-)

Cheers,

Jason

On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 2:33 PM, Antony Gr. ant.grak...@gmail.com wrote:

 This isn't work correctly: 'counter-reset' and other CSS styles for
 this nested lists not supported by IE.

 2009/8/26 Jason Grant ja...@flexewebs.com:
  This isn't a problem at all. It's a simple thing to do in HTML. Example:
  ol
   liBlah Blah/li
   liBlah Blah/li
   liBlah Blah
ol
 liBlah Blah/li
 liBlah Blah/li
 liBlah Blah
ol
liBlah blah/li
liBlah blah/li
liBlah blah/li
/ol
 /li
/ol
   /li
  /ol
 
  Thanks,
  Jason
  On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 1:33 PM, kwill...@zonnet.nl wrote:
  --
  Jason Grant BSc, MSc
  CEO, Flexewebs Ltd.
  www.flexewebs.com
  ja...@flexewebs.com
  +44 (0)7748 591 770
  Company no.: 5587469
 
  www.flexewebs.com/semantix
  www.twitter.com/flexewebs
  www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs
 
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-- 
Jason Grant BSc, MSc
CEO, Flexewebs Ltd.
www.flexewebs.com
ja...@flexewebs.com
+44 (0)7748 591 770
Company no.: 5587469

www.flexewebs.com/semantix
www.twitter.com/flexewebs
www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs


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Re: [WSG] legal list numbering

2009-08-26 Thread Antony Gr.
IE not understand this. You don't agree?

2009/8/26 Jason Grant ja...@flexewebs.com:
 Inspect the TOC of this page and see that the markup I used is essentially
 correct.
 The difference is that they wrote the numbers down into the page (i.e. 1.1,
 4.11, 5., etc.)
 http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/
 If unsure, use a W3C page as a reference point :-)
 Cheers,
 Jason




 --
 Jason Grant BSc, MSc
 CEO, Flexewebs Ltd.
 www.flexewebs.com
 ja...@flexewebs.com
 +44 (0)7748 591 770
 Company no.: 5587469

 www.flexewebs.com/semantix
 www.twitter.com/flexewebs
 www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs

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RE: [WSG] legal list numbering

2009-08-26 Thread Koen Willems
Jason, the markup you presented is semanticly ok, but doesn't solve the
issue topic starter mentioned.
See the example site i've given before for a solution,
http://www.regels-stadskanaal.nl
 
Koen Willems

-Oorspronkelijk bericht-
Van: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] Namens
Jason Grant
Verzonden: woensdag 26 augustus 2009 16:12
Aan: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Onderwerp: Re: [WSG] legal list numbering


Anthony - what's there to 'understand'?  
This is the semantically correct way to mark up this particular set of data.
Simple as. 
By all means you should be able to style up looking pixel perfect the same
across any browser under the Sun.
Cheers,
Jason


On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 3:04 PM, Antony Gr. ant.grak...@gmail.com wrote:


IE not understand this. You don't agree?


2009/8/26 Jason Grant ja...@flexewebs.com:

 Inspect the TOC of this page and see that the markup I used is essentially
 correct.
 The difference is that they wrote the numbers down into the page (i.e.
1.1,
 4.11, 5., etc.)
 http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/
 If unsure, use a W3C page as a reference point :-)
 Cheers,
 Jason





 --
 Jason Grant BSc, MSc
 CEO, Flexewebs Ltd.
 www.flexewebs.com
 ja...@flexewebs.com
 +44 (0)7748 591 770
 Company no.: 5587469

 www.flexewebs.com/semantix
 www.twitter.com/flexewebs
 www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs

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-- 
Jason Grant BSc, MSc
CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. 
www.flexewebs.com 
ja...@flexewebs.com 
+44 (0)7748 591 770
Company no.: 5587469 

www.flexewebs.com/semantix
www.twitter.com/flexewebs 
www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs


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Re: [WSG] legal list numbering (webstandardsgroup: to exclusive)

2009-08-26 Thread Jason T. Featheringham
HTML5 should *never *include specifications for what you're asking.  From an
pure HTML standpoint, you should never be specifying what type of numbering
scheme to use, just how to structure list items.  The context of *type* you
speak of is presentational.  Maybe a *class=legal* attribute might assist
you.  Then it is for the CSS to specify the look.

If you're looking for pixel-perfect representation, that is *not* what
HTML/CSS or even Web browsers were intended to do.  A potential workaround
may be to offer an HTML version (with JavaScript to prefix the parent
section numbers in each list item == progressive enhancement), but if you
want to maintain the absolute original format, offer a PDF version.

A simple solution using inline CSS and JavaScript (ALWAYS separate them):

!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.1//EN
http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml11/DTD/xhtml11.dtd;
html xmlns=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml; 
head
titleLegal Document/title
style type=text/css
/*** KEEP THIS IN A SEPARATE FILE ***/
ol.legal,
ol.legal ol {/* default display, one reference per
item */
list-style-type: decimal;
padding-left: 1em;
margin-left: .5em;
}
body.ready ol.legal,
body.ready ol.legal ol {/* if JS enabled, allow it to specify
the reference numbers */
list-style-type: none;
}
body.ready ol.legal {
padding-left: 0;
}

body.ready ol.legal span.reference {
padding-right: .5em;
}
/style
!-- using jQuery for DOM traversal --
   script type=text/javascript
src=http://ajax.googleapis.com/ajax/libs/jquery/1.3.2/jquery.min.js;
/script
script type=text/javascript
/*** KEEP THIS IN A SEPARATE FILE ***/
$(function() {
$('body').addClass('ready'); /* let CSS know that JS is enabled
*/

$('ol.legal li')
.each(function() {
/* each list item should also reference all of it's
ancestors' positions */
var $li = $(this);

$li
.prepend( /* add to beginning of each list item */
'span class=reference' +
$li
.parents('li')
.andSelf()
.map(function() { return
$(this).prevAll().size() + 1; }) /* map all reference positions as array */
.get()
.join('.')
+ '/span'
);
});
});
/script
/head
body
h1Document Name/h1

!-- offer a PDF version if the user needs to see it in its ORIGINAL
format --
pA a href=#PDF version/a is available./p

!-- only layout the structure of the legal document here.  CSS should
handle the rest --
ol class=legal
 liBlah Blah/li
 liBlah Blah/li
 liBlah Blah
  ol
   liBlah Blah/li
   liBlah Blah/li
   liBlah Blah
  ol
  liBlah blah/li
  liBlah blah/li
  liBlah blah/li
  /ol
   /li
  /ol
 /li
/ol
/body
/html



Regards,
Jason T. Featheringham
Front-End Engineer
http://thejase.com

On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 10:11 AM, Jason Grant ja...@flexewebs.com wrote:

 Anthony - what's there to 'understand'? This is the semantically correct
 way to mark up this particular set of data.
 Simple as.
 By all means you should be able to style up looking pixel perfect the same
 across any browser under the Sun.
 Cheers,
 Jason


 On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 3:04 PM, Antony Gr. ant.grak...@gmail.com wrote:

 IE not understand this. You don't agree?

 2009/8/26 Jason Grant ja...@flexewebs.com:
  Inspect the TOC of this page and see that the markup I used is
 essentially
  correct.
  The difference is that they wrote the numbers down into the page (i.e.
 1.1,
  4.11, 5., etc.)
  http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/
  If unsure, use a W3C page as a reference point :-)
  Cheers,
  Jason
 
 
 
 
  --
  Jason Grant BSc, MSc
  CEO, Flexewebs Ltd.
  www.flexewebs.com
  ja...@flexewebs.com
  +44 (0)7748 591 770
  Company no.: 5587469
 
  www.flexewebs.com/semantix
  www.twitter.com/flexewebs
  www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs
 
  ***
  List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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 List Guidelines: 

[WSG] legal list numbering

2009-08-25 Thread Andrew Harris
How do people get around the problem of marking up ordered lists in
legal documents, such as policies or terms and conditions?

A typical structure might look like:

1 blah blah blah
1.1 blah blah blah
1.2 blah blah blah
1.2.1 blah blah blah
1.2.2 blah blah blah
1.3 blah blah blah
2 blah blah blah
2.1 blah blah blah
2.1.1 blah blah blah*

I've seen a variety of convoluted javascript and CSS methods, but
they're all hacks for what is essentially a pretty logical
structure... nested ordered lists!

I have to admit, I haven't even checked whether this is addressed in html 5.

* BTW: I've read lots of legal documents and I reckon the text can
mostly be replaced with blah blah blah without affecting their
meaning.

-- 
Andrew Harris
and...@woowoowoo.com
http://www.woowoowoo.com

~~~ * ~~~


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RE: [WSG] legal list numbering

2009-08-25 Thread Mark Huppert
Andrew

You cannot mess around with legal documents
by removing or changing numbering.

If you can't code it up in html, it might be
better to use pre or even to publish it in pdf.


regards

Mark


Mark Huppert
Library Web Development  
Integrated Library Management System Coordinator
Division of Information
R.G. Menzies Building (#2)
The Australian National University
ACTON ACT 0200

T: +61 02 6125 2752 
F: +61 02 6125 4063
W: http://anulib.anu.edu.au/about/

CRICOS Provider #00120C


-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org]
On Behalf Of Andrew Harris
Sent: Wednesday, 26 August 2009 3:12 PM
To: WSG
Subject: [WSG] legal list numbering

How do people get around the problem of marking up ordered lists in
legal documents, such as policies or terms and conditions?

A typical structure might look like:

1 blah blah blah
1.1 blah blah blah
1.2 blah blah blah
1.2.1 blah blah blah
1.2.2 blah blah blah
1.3 blah blah blah
2 blah blah blah
2.1 blah blah blah
2.1.1 blah blah blah*

I've seen a variety of convoluted javascript and CSS methods, but
they're all hacks for what is essentially a pretty logical
structure... nested ordered lists!

I have to admit, I haven't even checked whether this is addressed in
html 5.

* BTW: I've read lots of legal documents and I reckon the text can
mostly be replaced with blah blah blah without affecting their
meaning.

-- 
Andrew Harris
and...@woowoowoo.com
http://www.woowoowoo.com

~~~ * ~~~


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