Re: [WSG] screen resolution and standards
Lea de Groot wrote: Yes, speculation is useless. One of my clients, for the month of August shows the follow figures in their logs: Count | % of screen used by window snip / Interesting, but you're missing a critical piece of data. Without knowing what their resolution is at 100%, the value of the data is very limited. For example, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] As far as the bottom line goes, Russ hit the nail on the head: A lot of this comes down the the site and its intended audience. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] screen resolution and standards
Mordechai Peller wrote: Lea de Groot wrote: Yes, speculation is useless. One of my clients, for the month of August shows the follow figures in their logs: Count | % of screen used by window snip / Interesting, but you're missing a critical piece of data. Without knowing what their resolution is at 100%, the value of the data is very limited. For example, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yes, you can grab that info with JS as well to get the full picture for each hit. Getting back to accessibility - you could look at screen res as a probability curve and see that the great majority of general visitors would use 800 and 1024. Aim for these resolutions, if the user runs 640x480 and the content is still readable (even with a side scroll) then that's ok. If the content is still readable at high res (albeit with lots of whitespace) then that's ok. Trying to convince a designer of this is another matter :D My POV is if a user resizes the browser window to 200x100 then that's something they have undertaken after the page has been delivered to them. Once they have the page, what they want to do to break it is entirely their problem, it's only client side code. Cheers James (using a common res of 1680x1050 :) ) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] screen resolution and standards
Okay, my first question. ;) Screen resolution: back in the day, designers made their sites look good on 640x480 because that's what most people used (only the *ultra geek* used anything higher than 800x600 ;) ). Then, of course, everybody went up to 800x600, and now most laptops (and perhaps desktops...I haven't bought one in a few years) default to 1024x768. I think most designers these days don't even consider 640x480, since nobody uses it anymore. Is that the stance of those wishing to follow Web standards? Or are there accessability reasons why we should aim for the lowest of resolutions, as well as the highest? For example, when putting tabs (in CSS, of course) horizontally on the top of a page, do we worry that they wrap in 640x480 but look good in anything higher? Thanks. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] screen resolution and standards
A lot of this comes down the the site and its intended audience. However, you should keep in mind hand-held devices which are on the increase in a major way. They have tiny screens. This means we really have to think outside the standards screen sizes. A good mind-shift article is here: http://www.alistapart.com/articles/dao/ The aim of accessibility is to make content, accessible to the widest range of users and devices possible. Russ Is that the stance of those wishing to follow Web standards? Or are there accessability reasons why we should aim for the lowest of resolutions, as well as the highest? For example, when putting tabs (in CSS, of course) horizontally on the top of a page, do we worry that they wrap in 640x480 but look good in anything higher? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] screen resolution and standards
On 9/24/04 2:39 AM russ - maxdesign [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent this out: However, you should keep in mind hand-held devices which are on the increase in a major way. They have tiny screens. This means we really have to think outside the standards screen sizes. A good mind-shift article is here: http://www.alistapart.com/articles/dao/ The aim of accessibility is to make content, accessible to the widest range of users and devices possible. I'm sure you're correct in that assessment. I interviewed for a job this week and my web dev skills (which I'm not that full of) were relevant but not a deal breaker. Anyway, one of the interview panel folks pulled up my primo site on their Blackberry (or whatever) PDA and said Cool! Great job for PDAs! and really I had done nothing but design with fluid tables and formatted everything I could with CSS, but I had done zero layout stuff with CSS - it was all tables. So what's the real deal on formatting for all these devices? I should check the ALA article I'm sure and I will but I'm looking for the real truth. Rick Faaberg ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] screen resolution and standards
Opera-based devices seem to support well but some others do not. Patrick has done a lot of research and could tell us real stats: http://www.htmldog.com/ptg/archives/55.php Worth reading: http://www.alistapart.com/articles/pocket/ http://my.opera.com/community/dev/device/css-media/ While interesting, be careful of emulators like this: http://relay5.yospace.com/ipaqbrowser/ipaqbrowser.html If concerned about lack of support for handheld media type, and you felt it vital for a particular site, you could always use a style switcher or some other method to allow users to manually choose a tiny screen option. 2c Russ On 9/24/04 2:39 AM russ - maxdesign [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent this out: However, you should keep in mind hand-held devices which are on the increase in a major way. They have tiny screens. This means we really have to think outside the standards screen sizes. A good mind-shift article is here: http://www.alistapart.com/articles/dao/ The aim of accessibility is to make content, accessible to the widest range of users and devices possible. I'm sure you're correct in that assessment. I interviewed for a job this week and my web dev skills (which I'm not that full of) were relevant but not a deal breaker. Anyway, one of the interview panel folks pulled up my primo site on their Blackberry (or whatever) PDA and said Cool! Great job for PDAs! and really I had done nothing but design with fluid tables and formatted everything I could with CSS, but I had done zero layout stuff with CSS - it was all tables. So what's the real deal on formatting for all these devices? I should check the ALA article I'm sure and I will but I'm looking for the real truth. Rick Faaberg ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** Thanks Russ --- Russ Weakley Max Design Phone: (02) 9410 2521 Mobile: 0403 433 980 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.maxdesign.com.au --- ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] screen resolution and standards
Another thing that is often forgotten is that many people DONT run applications (which also means browsers) at full screen resolution. Many people still run lots of overlapping windows (the messy desktop approach). So - it's all well and good to not design for 640x480 - but there will be lots of people out there that don't have their browser size to much more than that. Not to mention all the toolbars that seem to clutter the Browser these days - which all take up screen real-estate. Does this mean we only design for 640x480? No - but it does mean your design should still be usable if people aren't running it at the resolution you thought they would. Sure - they can scroll - but (strange as it may seem) there are also many users out there that just wont bother scrolling to get to the interesting bits. And before all the cries go up about Come on, the stats show etc.. I can tell you that I see this around my workplace every day. The stats only show what the machine is capable of - not how people use it. And many of them use it very differently than how we might expect. Regards, Gary ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] screen resolution and standards
On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 09:02:14 +1000, Gary Menzel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Another thing that is often forgotten is that many people DONT run applications (which also means browsers) at full screen resolution. Many people still run lots of overlapping windows (the messy desktop approach). ... And before all the cries go up about Come on, the stats show etc.. I can tell you that I see this around my workplace every day. The stats only show what the machine is capable of - not how people use it. And many of them use it very differently than how we might expect. Precisely. Only I yet have to see someone who runs his/her browser NOT maximazed. That's around my workplace. So better not to speculate on this issue. Regards, Rimantas -- http://rimantas.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] screen resolution and standards
On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 03:16:47 +0300, Rimantas Liubertas wrote: Precisely. Only I yet have to see someone who runs his/her browser NOT maximazed. That's around my workplace. So better not to speculate on this issue. Yes, speculation is useless. One of my clients, for the month of August shows the follow figures in their logs: Count | % of screen used by window 1 | 10 - 20 3 | 30 - 40 3 | 40 - 50 4 | 50 - 60 31 | 60 - 70 172 | 70 - 80 324 | 80 - 90 720 | 90 - 100 1669 | 100 (hope that comes out readably!) Clearly, more than half use a maximised screen, but a good (does some mental arithmetic) 40% arent. (I use a small js generated web bug to record this sort of data and mention in the privacy policy that I do that, for those who want to know) warmly, Lea -- Lea de Groot Elysian Systems - http://elysiansystems.com/ Brisbane, Australia ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
