Re: [WSG] the Name attribute

[Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis]

Joe Ortenzi wrote:

standards compliance should not be confused with WCAG conformance.

HTML is a standard WCAG is a guidance that people use as if it were a 
"standard", which could easily be a standard but is effectively not one. 
However, complying with WCAG confers added benefits which standards 
compliance creators strive for.


"Standard" is a pretty fuzzy word. Might be worth clarifying what 
definition of "standard" you are applying here.


--
Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis


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Re: [WSG] the Name attribute

[Andrew Maben]

On Dec 3, 2008, at 8:19 AM, Stuart Foulstone wrote:

Accessibility is an extension of usability to include non-standard  
ways of

browsing the web.

Complying with WCAG is step towards accessibility. Careful  
consideration

has to be given how one applies WCAG meaningfully.

Research has shown that Websites meeting WCAG were still found  
difficult

to use by disabled users


Absolutely!

Though personally I tend to think of usability as an extension of  
accessibility.


During the design phase I *try* to keep in mind, and in balance:
standards-compliance;
accessibility;
usability;
design.

In implementation I believe each of these levels is a pre-requisite  
to its sequel, and that in turn each enhances its precursor.


A standards-compliant site will likely be more accessible than a site  
presenting the same content using non-standards techniques, and  
provides a solid foundation on which to add accessibility  
enhancements. Likewise, accessibility itself inherently improves  
usability, and opens the way to further usability enhancements, which  
contribute to, and influence, design decisions that can further  
improve usability.


And as for design, I believe its purpose is firstly to enhance the  
functionality of some "thing" that people "use" for some definable  
purpose in their daily lives, and this requires a different set of  
aesthetic criteria than those applied to fine art. In the end an  
"ugly" tool that performs its task efficiently and is easy to use is  
*always* a better design than something that is hard-to-use and  
ineffective. Which is not, of course to say that it's impossible to  
combine beauty, functionality and usability.


Andrew



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Re: [WSG] the Name attribute

[Stuart Foulstone]

I was not using the term "standards" in the sense of a standards to be met
then everything is OK, but as a collective of best practices.

Web standards in the sense that I meant it, means designing with usability
and accessibility in mind.

Valid code is a pre-requisite to this.

Usability is the next step - e.g. don't use something that is consistently
in the top ten list of things that users hate; do use something that
usability studies have found to be helpful features.

Accessibility is an extension of usability to include non-standard ways of
browsing the web.

Complying with WCAG is step towards accessibility. Careful consideration
has to be given how one applies WCAG meaningfully.

Research has shown that Websites meeting WCAG were still found difficult
to use by disabled users - mainly because of a lack of consideration to
basic standards of usability.

Designing using these approaches is what I meant by designing to standards.


On Tue, December 2, 2008 8:07 pm, Joe Ortenzi wrote:
> standards compliance should not be confused with WCAG conformance.
>
> HTML is a standard WCAG is a guidance that people use as if it were a
> "standard", which could easily be a standard but is effectively not
> one. However, complying with WCAG confers added benefits which
> standards compliance creators strive for.
>
> On 29/11/2008, at 09:22 , Stuart Foulstone wrote:
>
>> It may validate, but valid code is just a pre-requisite to achieving
>> standards compliance.
>>
>>
>> On Fri, November 28, 2008 8:43 pm, Dave Hall wrote:
>>> On Fri, 2008-11-28 at 13:07 +, Stuart Foulstone wrote:
 Blinking text is against standards in itself, so how can you do it
 in a
 standards compliant way?
>>>
>>> Using the sample I posted - see below.  That validates.
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>>
>>> Dave
>>>

 On Fri, November 28, 2008 10:45 am, Dave Hall wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>   /* ... */
>>   .blink{
>>   text-decoration: blink;
>>   }
>>   /* ... */
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>my blinking test
>>
>>
>>
>>instead of
>>
>>my blinking test
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
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>
> 
> Joseph Ortenzi
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> +61 (0)434 047 804
> http://www.typingthevoid.com
> http://twitter.com/wheelyweb
> http://www.linkedin.com/in/jortenzi
> Skype:wheelyweb
>
>
>
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Re: [WSG] the Name attribute

[Joe Ortenzi]

standards compliance should not be confused with WCAG conformance.

HTML is a standard WCAG is a guidance that people use as if it were a  
"standard", which could easily be a standard but is effectively not  
one. However, complying with WCAG confers added benefits which  
standards compliance creators strive for.


On 29/11/2008, at 09:22 , Stuart Foulstone wrote:


It may validate, but valid code is just a pre-requisite to achieving
standards compliance.


On Fri, November 28, 2008 8:43 pm, Dave Hall wrote:

On Fri, 2008-11-28 at 13:07 +, Stuart Foulstone wrote:
Blinking text is against standards in itself, so how can you do it  
in a

standards compliant way?


Using the sample I posted - see below.  That validates.

Cheers

Dave



On Fri, November 28, 2008 10:45 am, Dave Hall wrote:

   
   
   
  /* ... */
  .blink{
  text-decoration: blink;
  }
  /* ... */
   
   
   
   
   
   my blinking test
   
   

   instead of
   
   my blinking test
   




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Joseph Ortenzi
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
+61 (0)434 047 804
http://www.typingthevoid.com
http://twitter.com/wheelyweb
http://www.linkedin.com/in/jortenzi
Skype:wheelyweb



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Re: [WSG] the Name attribute

[Stuart Foulstone]

It may validate, but valid code is just a pre-requisite to achieving
standards compliance.


On Fri, November 28, 2008 8:43 pm, Dave Hall wrote:
> On Fri, 2008-11-28 at 13:07 +, Stuart Foulstone wrote:
>> Blinking text is against standards in itself, so how can you do it in a
>> standards compliant way?
>
> Using the sample I posted - see below.  That validates.
>
> Cheers
>
> Dave
>
>>
>> On Fri, November 28, 2008 10:45 am, Dave Hall wrote:
>> >> 
>> >> 
>> >> 
>> >>/* ... */
>> >>.blink{
>> >>text-decoration: blink;
>> >>}
>> >>/* ... */
>> >> 
>> >> 
>> >> 
>> >> 
>> >> 
>> >> my blinking test
>> >> 
>> >> 
>> >>
>> >> instead of
>> >> 
>> >> my blinking test
>> >> 
>
>
>
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>




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RE: [WSG] the Name attribute

[Steve Green]

Stuart's point is that blinking content violates checkpoint 7.2 of the W3C
Web Content Accessibility Guidelines:

"Until user agents allow users to control blinking, avoid causing content to
blink (i.e., change presentation at a regular rate, such as turning on and
off)"

Steve



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dave Hall
Sent: 28 November 2008 20:44
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] the Name attribute

On Fri, 2008-11-28 at 13:07 +, Stuart Foulstone wrote:
> Blinking text is against standards in itself, so how can you do it in 
> a standards compliant way?

Using the sample I posted - see below.  That validates.

Cheers

Dave

> 
> On Fri, November 28, 2008 10:45 am, Dave Hall wrote:
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >>/* ... */
> >>.blink{
> >>text-decoration: blink;
> >>}
> >>/* ... */
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> my blinking test
> >> 
> >> 
> >>
> >> instead of
> >> 
> >> my blinking test
> >> 



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Re: [WSG] the Name attribute

[Dave Hall]

On Fri, 2008-11-28 at 13:07 +, Stuart Foulstone wrote:
> Blinking text is against standards in itself, so how can you do it in a
> standards compliant way?

Using the sample I posted - see below.  That validates.

Cheers

Dave

> 
> On Fri, November 28, 2008 10:45 am, Dave Hall wrote:
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >>/* ... */
> >>.blink{
> >>text-decoration: blink;
> >>}
> >>/* ... */
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> my blinking test
> >> 
> >> 
> >>
> >> instead of
> >> 
> >> my blinking test
> >> 



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Re: [WSG] the Name attribute

[Stuart Foulstone]

Blinking text is against standards in itself, so how can you do it in a
standards compliant way?

On Fri, November 28, 2008 10:45 am, Dave Hall wrote:
> On Thu, 2008-11-27 at 23:11 -0600, Brett Patterson wrote:
>> What Dave?
>
> I was simply illustrating how to make text blink in a standards
> compliant way.  You never know someone might find such information
> useful one day.  The example I provided would allow them to avoid using
> the ugly non standard 
>
> Cheers
>
> Dave
>
> PS this wasn't supposed to be taken as advocating the use of blinking text
> :)
>
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 6:04 AM, Dave Hall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> On Thu, 2008-11-27 at 10:18 +, David Dorward wrote:
>> > Brett Patterson wrote:
>> > > Where could I find a good information site about the
>> > > document.images.imageId script line, please?
>> >
>> >
>> 
>> http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/REC-DOM-Level-1-19981001/level-one-html.html#ID-26809268
>> >
>> > > And if you are trying to code using codes such as
>> > > http://www.kirupa.com/forum/showthread.php?t=217502
>> > >
>> > > Just an example. A quick search to find.
>> >
>> > A quick search can also find out how to use blink tags and
>> tables for
>> > layout. That is a good example of worst practises.
>>
>>
>> Yes we all know that you should always use
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>/* ... */
>>.blink{
>>text-decoration: blink;
>>}
>>/* ... */
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> my blinking test
>> 
>> 
>>
>> instead of
>> 
>> my blinking test
>> 
>
>
>
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Re: [WSG] the Name attribute

[Dave Hall]

On Thu, 2008-11-27 at 23:11 -0600, Brett Patterson wrote:
> What Dave?

I was simply illustrating how to make text blink in a standards
compliant way.  You never know someone might find such information
useful one day.  The example I provided would allow them to avoid using
the ugly non standard 

Cheers

Dave

PS this wasn't supposed to be taken as advocating the use of blinking text :)

> 
> On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 6:04 AM, Dave Hall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Thu, 2008-11-27 at 10:18 +, David Dorward wrote:
> > Brett Patterson wrote:
> > > Where could I find a good information site about the
> > > document.images.imageId script line, please?
> >
> >
> 
> http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/REC-DOM-Level-1-19981001/level-one-html.html#ID-26809268
> >
> > > And if you are trying to code using codes such as
> > > http://www.kirupa.com/forum/showthread.php?t=217502
> > >
> > > Just an example. A quick search to find.
> >
> > A quick search can also find out how to use blink tags and
> tables for
> > layout. That is a good example of worst practises.
> 
> 
> Yes we all know that you should always use
> 
> 
> 
>/* ... */
>.blink{
>text-decoration: blink;
>}
>/* ... */
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> my blinking test
> 
> 
> 
> instead of
> 
> my blinking test
> 



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Re: [WSG] the Name attribute

[Brett Patterson]

What Dave?

On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 6:04 AM, Dave Hall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Thu, 2008-11-27 at 10:18 +, David Dorward wrote:
> > Brett Patterson wrote:
> > > Where could I find a good information site about the
> > > document.images.imageId script line, please?
> >
> >
> http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/REC-DOM-Level-1-19981001/level-one-html.html#ID-26809268
> >
> > > And if you are trying to code using codes such as
> > > http://www.kirupa.com/forum/showthread.php?t=217502
> > >
> > > Just an example. A quick search to find.
> >
> > A quick search can also find out how to use blink tags and tables for
> > layout. That is a good example of worst practises.
>
> Yes we all know that you should always use
> 
> 
> 
>/* ... */
>.blink{
>text-decoration: blink;
>}
>/* ... */
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> my blinking test
> 
> 
>
> instead of
> 
> my blinking test
> 
>
> Cheers
>
> Dave
>
>
>
>
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-- 
Brett P.


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Re: [WSG] the Name attribute

[Dave Hall]

On Thu, 2008-11-27 at 10:18 +, David Dorward wrote:
> Brett Patterson wrote:
> > Where could I find a good information site about the
> > document.images.imageId script line, please?
> 
> http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/REC-DOM-Level-1-19981001/level-one-html.html#ID-26809268
> 
> > And if you are trying to code using codes such as
> > http://www.kirupa.com/forum/showthread.php?t=217502
> > 
> > Just an example. A quick search to find.
> 
> A quick search can also find out how to use blink tags and tables for
> layout. That is a good example of worst practises.

Yes we all know that you should always use 



/* ... */
.blink{
text-decoration: blink;
}
/* ... */





my blinking test



instead of

my blinking test


Cheers

Dave




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Re: [WSG] the Name attribute

[David Dorward]

Brett Patterson wrote:
> Where could I find a good information site about the
> document.images.imageId script line, please?

http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/REC-DOM-Level-1-19981001/level-one-html.html#ID-26809268

> And if you are trying to code using codes such as
> http://www.kirupa.com/forum/showthread.php?t=217502
> 
> Just an example. A quick search to find.

A quick search can also find out how to use blink tags and tables for
layout. That is a good example of worst practises.

-- 
David Dorward   


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Re: [WSG] the Name attribute

[Brett Patterson]

Where could I find a good information site about the document.images.imageId
script line, please? And if you are trying to code using codes such as
http://www.kirupa.com/forum/showthread.php?t=217502
Just an example. A quick search to find.

On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 12:52 PM, David Dorward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Brett Patterson wrote:
> > So I thought. But why, when using JavaScript can you not target the ID
> > of an element such as an image?
>
> You can.
>
> > You can target the name, but not the ID,
>
> Incorrect.
>
> > not without document.getElementById
>
> Why would you want to do it without document.getElementById?
>
> Even if you did, document.images.imageId works fine (at least in the
> quick test I performed).
>
>
> --
> David Dorward   
>
>
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-- 
Brett P.


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Re: [WSG] the Name attribute

[David Dorward]

Brett Patterson wrote:
> So I thought. But why, when using JavaScript can you not target the ID
> of an element such as an image?

You can.

> You can target the name, but not the ID,

Incorrect.

> not without document.getElementById

Why would you want to do it without document.getElementById?

Even if you did, document.images.imageId works fine (at least in the
quick test I performed).


-- 
David Dorward   


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Re: [WSG] the Name attribute

[Brett Patterson]

So I thought. But why, when using JavaScript can you not target the ID of an
element such as an image? You can target the name, but not the ID, not
without document.getElementById-blah blah blah, so how can it duplicate
it? It seems then, that is does not.

On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 1:32 PM, David Dorward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Brett Patterson wrote:
> > I don't why, but XHTML (I am using Strict 1.0 in the below examples),
> > has deprecated the use of the name attribute. That being said, my
> > question is, "Why was the name attribute deprecated?".
>
> Because (on the elements upon which it was deprecated) it did nothing
> except duplicate the functionality of the id attribute.
>
>
> --
> David Dorward   
>
>
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-- 
Brett P.


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Re: [WSG] the Name attribute

[David Dorward]

Brett Patterson wrote:
> I don't why, but XHTML (I am using Strict 1.0 in the below examples),
> has deprecated the use of the name attribute. That being said, my
> question is, "Why was the name attribute deprecated?".

Because (on the elements upon which it was deprecated) it did nothing
except duplicate the functionality of the id attribute.


-- 
David Dorward   


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Re: [WSG] the Name attribute

[Brett Patterson]

That is strange, the examples didn't show. Any idea as to why?

On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 12:56 PM, Brett Patterson <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I don't why, but XHTML (I am using Strict 1.0 in the below examples), has
> deprecated the use of the name attribute. That being said, my question is,
> "Why was the name attribute deprecated?".
>
> --
> Brett P.
>
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-- 
Brett P.


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[WSG] the Name attribute

[Brett Patterson]

I don't why, but XHTML (I am using Strict 1.0 in the below examples), has
deprecated the use of the name attribute. That being said, my question is,
"Why was the name attribute deprecated?".

-- 
Brett P.


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