Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?

2004-10-07 Thread Chris Stratford
I use XHTML Strict, and have modded the DTD to accept New Window code. If you would like you can use my version: !DOCTYPE html PUBLIC XHTML 1.01 Strict http://www.neester.com/DTD/xhtml-target.dtd; I dubbed it XHTML 1.01 Strict... I know incorrectly named 1.01 - but I thought it was cute at the

Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?

2004-10-07 Thread Patrick H. Lauke
Chris Stratford wrote: I use XHTML Strict, and have modded the DTD to accept New Window code. What always makes me wonder about these solutions is that, in effect, they are still reliant on the fact that current browsers have the built-in understanding and capability of reacting a certain way

Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?

2004-10-07 Thread Chris Stratford
The browser will understand the target=_blank no matter what the DTD is. I think it would just assume HTML, and therefore _blank = new window. The DTD I forged with the help of a tutorial - will allow you the VALIDATE XHTML 1.0 Strict code. That is all - I should have mentioned that earlier. And

Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?

2004-10-07 Thread Terrence Wood
I think you are correct in your assessment that opening a new window is a behavior of the UA, and therefore (arguably) should not be included in the DTD that describes the structure of a document. Having said all that Chris's solution of having extended and published the DTD is perfectly

Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?

2004-10-07 Thread Patrick H. Lauke
Terrence Wood wrote: Having said all that Chris's solution of having extended and published the DTD is perfectly acceptable. Yes, sorry...I wasn't questioning the validity of Chris' solution per se. I was just taking a step back to look at the bigger picture, beyond mere validation, to what it

Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?

2004-10-06 Thread Lachlan Hardy
Ryan Nichols wrote: The reason you would want to usa a 'popup' is for contextual information. Usually this is in more of a web application scenario than a website per-se. So you have to think more broadly in the term of website than serving documents with content in them (ala 'surfing').

Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?

2004-10-06 Thread john
Patrick H. Lauke wrote: Don't imagine that users of visual browsers are automatically free of disabilities. Think for instance about users with learning disabilities...they too would get confused by a new window being popped up, effectively breaking the back button navigation. I believe I've

Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?

2004-10-06 Thread john
The main point they were making was that they wanted the new site in a new window so that they can visually separate my site from external links (a point I don't understand, since it should be pretty obvious when you're leaving the original site). They also enjoyed the idea of having the

RE: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?

2004-10-06 Thread Andreas Boehmer
PROTECTED] Behalf Of john Sent: Wednesday, 6 October 2004 2:30 AM To: web standards group Subject: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window? Some of my usability team are telling me that they prefer to have external links going into a new browser window. I can see why some would like

Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?

2004-10-06 Thread Dey Alexander
Assuming the user knows what the icons mean. In my experience, they unfortunately don't. Cheers, Dey On Wed, 6 Oct 2004 18:48:50 +1000, Andreas Boehmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Have a look at Disability Online (http://www.disability.vic.gov.au) - they solve it quite nicely by opening

Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?

2004-10-06 Thread Rick Faaberg
. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of john Sent: Wednesday, 6 October 2004 2:30 AM To: web standards group Subject: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window? Some of my usability team are telling me that they prefer to have

RE: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?

2004-10-06 Thread Andreas Boehmer
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Dey Alexander Assuming the user knows what the icons mean. In my experience, they unfortunately don't. Hi Dey, I agree, but then again I don't think it harms anybody to have them. And for the general

RE: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?

2004-10-06 Thread Andreas Boehmer
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Rick Faaberg Sent: Wednesday, 6 October 2004 7:30 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window? On 10/6/04 1:48 AM Andreas Boehmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent

RE: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?

2004-10-06 Thread Andreas Boehmer
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window? Ryan Nichols wrote: The reason you would want to usa a 'popup' is for contextual information. Usually this is in more of a web application scenario than a website per-se. So you have to think more broadly

RE: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?

2004-10-06 Thread Andreas Boehmer
: Wednesday, 6 October 2004 7:16 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window? Assuming the user knows what the icons mean. In my experience, they unfortunately don't. Cheers, Dey On Wed, 6 Oct 2004 18:48:50 +1000, Andreas Boehmer [EMAIL PROTECTED

Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?

2004-10-06 Thread Terrence Wood
Ryan, you have put forward a lot of ideas, but I can't help but thinking that the examples you provide make a stronger case for the counterpoint to the argument you are trying to make. Ryan Nichols wrote: The reason you would want to usa a 'popup' is for contextual information. Usually this is

Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?

2004-10-06 Thread Laura Carlson
Regarding external links in new window, like many of you I have the usual concerns. Although most users are familiar with the idea of closing external windows, some users will be confused. Some people with cognitive disabilities fit this description. Also changing the current window or popping

RE: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?

2004-10-06 Thread Ryan Nichols
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window? A number of the corporations I've work for have the best practice of presenting a page in the same window which notifies the user that they are about to leave the coproration name web site with links that give the user

Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?

2004-10-06 Thread John
Funny - the mail-archive.com link at http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/ opens in a new window... ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the

Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?

2004-10-06 Thread Terrence Wood
On 7/10/04 4:15 AM, Ryan Nichols wrote: Here, I'll bring in the help of an expert. Excellent book, 'The Design of Sites' by Douglas Duyne, James Landay, and Jason Hong. Quote is from the section on Process Funnels. I have this book, and as a formal collection of design patterns it's a fantastic

RE: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?

2004-10-06 Thread Ryan Nichols
Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Terrence Wood Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 2:33 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window? On 7/10/04 4:15 AM, Ryan Nichols wrote: Here, I'll bring in the help of an expert

Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?

2004-10-06 Thread Terrence Wood
Thanks for you contribution to this discussion Ryan, my apologies if you felt 'got at' in any way by me... it certainly was a lively debate, and it was great that you voiced your opinion with such enthusiasm. cheers ./tdw On 7/10/04 1:26 PM, Ryan Nichols wrote: I'm intitially responded to a

[WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?

2004-10-05 Thread john
Some of my usability team are telling me that they prefer to have external links going into a new browser window. I can see why some would like that, but I can also see why others would frown on it. Is there a standard answer for Web standards, or what are your points of view on this? If you

RE: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?

2004-10-05 Thread Mike Pepper
Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of john Sent: 05 October 2004 17:30 To: web standards group Subject: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window? Some of my usability team are telling me that they prefer to have external links going into a new browser window

RE: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?

2004-10-05 Thread Mike Pepper
of external links in new window? Some of my usability team are telling me that they prefer to have external links going into a new browser window. I can see why some would like that, but I can also see why others would frown on it. Is there a standard answer for Web standards, or what are your

Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?

2004-10-05 Thread john
standards group Subject: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window? Some of my usability team are telling me that they prefer to have external links going into a new browser window. I can see why some would like that, but I can also see why others would frown on it. Is there a standard answer

Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?

2004-10-05 Thread John
Mike Pepper wrote: John, Imagine using a screen reader when you are suddenly catapulted into a new browser window. Your navigation is shot to pieces. It is best practice to always open external links within the same browser session. At worst, it is permissible when, for instance, you deem a pop-up

Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?

2004-10-05 Thread Patrick H. Lauke
John wrote: Many marketing groups would never accept replacing the content of the current browser window of their site with the content of an external site. Is there some standard way to give the user control of popups, such as a checbox (maybe somewhat obscured from visual browsers)? Don't

Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?

2004-10-05 Thread Clayton Lengel-Zigich
The best thing to do, if the client is absolutely adamant that new windows be popped up, is to give users enough direct clues that activating a link will indeed open a new window (e.g. adding (opens in a new window) to the link text of title attribute, adding an icon - for instance via css'

Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?

2004-10-05 Thread Felix Miata
john wrote: Some of my usability team are telling me that they prefer to have external links going into a new browser window. I can see why some would like that, but I can also see why others would frown on it. Please see the first two items at: http://www.useit.com/alertbox/990530.html

Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?

2004-10-05 Thread Terrence Wood
Is there a standard answer for Web standards, or what are your points of view on this? The fact that the target attribute has disappeared from XHTML speaks volumes: don't open new windows. Opening new browser windows is about annoying as blinking text, or marquee text, and I can't think of a

Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?

2004-10-05 Thread Chris Blown
On Wed, 2004-10-06 at 02:30, john wrote: Is there a standard answer for Web standards, or what are your points of view on this? Here is a recent discussion on the proposed CSS3 property 'target-new' which was considering putting target behaviour into CSS, uurrgh! I think the points raised

Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?

2004-10-05 Thread Terrence Wood
There is a whole plethora of points against opening new windows... I am really curious as to what your usability team, or anybody else, see as the benfits of opening new windows. ./tdw john wrote: Some of my usability team are telling me that they prefer to have external links going into a new

Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?

2004-10-05 Thread Wayne Godfrey
Okay, I'll stick my neck out here for a list chopping. I personally like opening a new window whenever I'm web surfing. It's something that I got into a habit or doing long ago and far away. I'm still waiting for a big, honking G5 to be sitting under my fingertips, but until that day I'm stuck on

RE: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?

2004-10-05 Thread Herrod, Lisa
: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 9:59 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window? Okay, I'll stick my neck out here for a list chopping. I personally like opening a new window whenever I'm web surfing. It's something that I got into a habit or doing long ago

Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?

2004-10-05 Thread Patrick H. Lauke
Wayne Godfrey wrote: Even with the tab browsers that I've tried, I still end up opening a new tab more often than using the back and forward buttons. Key here is *I* [...] ended up opening a new tab. You, the user, made that choice. Not the web author/developer... Patrick

Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?

2004-10-05 Thread Terrence Wood
Thanks Wayne, appreciate the risk ;-) What you are describing though is your personal preference for opening new windows - which I am all in favour for. I prefer tabbed window browsers myself and open alot of tabs - and therein lies my point. Opening my own windows suits me and my workflow for

RE: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?

2004-10-05 Thread Greer, Ben
We currently use popup windows to provide an answer/feedback for an activity/questionnaire. At one stage we were using hidden divs and JS to unhide the div when the user hit a submit button, but from a usability standpoint that was bad as it reset the page to the top (and so a screenreader would

Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?

2004-10-05 Thread Wayne Godfrey
That's the point that needs to be made. Until the recent push to standards and usability, everyone was just doing what was considered the norm. This journey into standards and accessibility is completely new to me and many others. BUT, there is still a stronghold of folks who think in tables,

Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?

2004-10-05 Thread Lachlan Hardy
Apparently I too browse in a very similar manner to Wayne, I open just about every link in a new tab. Back when I used IE, I opened them in a new window (Shift+Click was a wonderful thing, now it's Ctrl+Click) However, I totally disapprove of opening links in a new window for one reason only:

Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?

2004-10-05 Thread Terrence Wood
1. p id=q1question/p a href=anwserq1.htmlcheck out the answer to question 1./a and in answerq1: a href=questions.html#q1return to quiz/a 2. write the answers into the document server side when the form is submitted and return it. 3. If the quiz relies on js then write the answer in using the

Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?

2004-10-05 Thread Susan R. Grossman
A number of the corporations I've work for have the best practice of presenting a page in the same window which notifies the user that they are about to leave the coproration name web site with links that give the user the choice of continuing on to an external website or returning to the page

Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?

2004-10-05 Thread John Horner
Almost too obvious to point out, but we have a web-based app which opens (full-sized) new windows sometimes, and in training, I often have people say what happened to the Back button? It doesn't work! -- if they're running a maximised Windows browser, a new window opening is often

Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?

2004-10-05 Thread Lachlan Hardy
Apparently I too browse in a very similar manner to Wayne, I open just about every link in a new tab. Back when I used IE, I opened them in a new window (Shift+Click was a wonderful thing, now it's Ctrl+Click) However, I totally disapprove of opening links in a new window for one reason only:

RE: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?

2004-10-05 Thread Greer, Ben
We currently use popup windows to provide an answer/feedback for an activity/questionnaire. At one stage we were using hidden divs and JS to unhide the div when the user hit a submit button, but from a usability standpoint that was bad as it reset the page to the top (and so a screenreader would

RE: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window?

2004-10-05 Thread Ryan Nichols
PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] thoughts of external links in new window? There is a whole plethora of points against opening new windows... I am really curious as to what your usability team, or anybody else, see as the benfits of opening new windows. ./tdw john wrote: Some of my usability team