Re: [WSG] your best practise for CSS sprites for elements that have no height declared

2008-11-25 Thread tee


On Nov 24, 2008, at 3:24 AM, Robert O'Rourke wrote:


If I remember rightly if you are able to save the image with a  
transparent background it keeps the file size lower because a  
transparent pixel takes less space than a pixel with colour  
information. You can put a coloured outline around the sprites  
themselves to avoid jagged edges in IE.



Thanks all for the tips. The htacces ones is especially useful :-)

tee


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RE: [WSG] your best practise for CSS sprites for elements that have no height declared

2008-11-25 Thread Foskett, Mike
While I cannot help with the spacing issue I do strongly suggest using
png rather than gif.
File size is smaller especially when run through pngGauntlet.

Mike Foskett


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of tee
Sent: 25 November 2008 10:48
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] your best practise for CSS sprites for elements that
have no height declared


On Nov 24, 2008, at 3:24 AM, Robert O'Rourke wrote:

 If I remember rightly if you are able to save the image with a  
 transparent background it keeps the file size lower because a  
 transparent pixel takes less space than a pixel with colour  
 information. You can put a coloured outline around the sprites  
 themselves to avoid jagged edges in IE.


Thanks all for the tips. The htacces ones is especially useful :-)

tee


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Re: [WSG] your best practise for CSS sprites for elements that have no height declared

2008-11-25 Thread Brett Patterson
No, I may have to disagree. GIF files are (a majority of them, if not all,
are) smaller. They have to be. Considering GIF only supports up to a maximum
of 256 colors. (it is 8-bit). Try

http://www.sitepoint.com/article/gif-jpg-png-whats-difference/
---or---
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphics_Interchange_Format

You should never have to use a pngGauntlet-type compressor.

On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 7:10 AM, Foskett, Mike [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote:

 While I cannot help with the spacing issue I do strongly suggest using
 png rather than gif.
 File size is smaller especially when run through pngGauntlet.

 Mike Foskett


 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 On Behalf Of tee
 Sent: 25 November 2008 10:48
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Subject: Re: [WSG] your best practise for CSS sprites for elements that
 have no height declared


 On Nov 24, 2008, at 3:24 AM, Robert O'Rourke wrote:
 
  If I remember rightly if you are able to save the image with a
  transparent background it keeps the file size lower because a
  transparent pixel takes less space than a pixel with colour
  information. You can put a coloured outline around the sprites
  themselves to avoid jagged edges in IE.


 Thanks all for the tips. The htacces ones is especially useful :-)

 tee


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  The views expressed in this email are those of the sender and not Tesco.

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 Company Number: 519500
 Registered in England
 Registered Office: Tesco House, Delamare Road, Cheshunt, Hertfordshire EN8
 9SL
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Re: [WSG] your best practise for CSS sprites for elements that have no height declared

2008-11-25 Thread Todd Budnikas
Brett, i'm not sure if the previous recommendation of PNG was for the  
8-bit pngs with transparency, but that's what I'd argue. I often check  
between GIF and 8-bit PNG when i export, to see which looks the best  
at the smallest size, and PNG often wins.



On Nov 25, 2008, at 8:15 AM, Brett Patterson wrote:

No, I may have to disagree. GIF files are (a majority of them, if  
not all, are) smaller. They have to be. Considering GIF only  
supports up to a maximum of 256 colors. (it is 8-bit). Try


http://www.sitepoint.com/article/gif-jpg-png-whats-difference/
---or---
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphics_Interchange_Format

You should never have to use a pngGauntlet-type compressor.

On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 7:10 AM, Foskett, Mike [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:

While I cannot help with the spacing issue I do strongly suggest using
png rather than gif.
File size is smaller especially when run through pngGauntlet.

Mike Foskett


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of tee
Sent: 25 November 2008 10:48
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] your best practise for CSS sprites for elements  
that

have no height declared


On Nov 24, 2008, at 3:24 AM, Robert O'Rourke wrote:

 If I remember rightly if you are able to save the image with a
 transparent background it keeps the file size lower because a
 transparent pixel takes less space than a pixel with colour
 information. You can put a coloured outline around the sprites
 themselves to avoid jagged edges in IE.




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RE: [WSG] your best practise for CSS sprites for elements that have no height declared

2008-11-25 Thread Foskett, Mike
Sorry Brett, you're wrong.

The png format will handle three levels of bit-depth including 8-bit
which is the same as the gif format.

The references you state are somewhat outdated and don't consider the
different methods of compression that a png will handle natively.

 

I suggest you try a few comparisons out yourself.

They don't always work out smaller but most often they do.

 

Create an 8-bit png in Fireworks (recommended but not essential).

Then run it through pngGauntlet and see for yourself. 

You're going to be surprised.

 

Mike Foskett

 

 

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Brett Patterson
Sent: 25 November 2008 13:16
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] your best practise for CSS sprites for elements that
have no height declared

 

No, I may have to disagree. GIF files are (a majority of them, if not
all, are) smaller. They have to be. Considering GIF only supports up to
a maximum of 256 colors. (it is 8-bit). Try

http://www.sitepoint.com/article/gif-jpg-png-whats-difference/
---or---
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphics_Interchange_Format

You should never have to use a pngGauntlet-type compressor.

On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 7:10 AM, Foskett, Mike
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

While I cannot help with the spacing issue I do strongly suggest using
png rather than gif.
File size is smaller especially when run through pngGauntlet.

Mike Foskett



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of tee
Sent: 25 November 2008 10:48
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] your best practise for CSS sprites for elements that
have no height declared


On Nov 24, 2008, at 3:24 AM, Robert O'Rourke wrote:

 If I remember rightly if you are able to save the image with a
 transparent background it keeps the file size lower because a
 transparent pixel takes less space than a pixel with colour
 information. You can put a coloured outline around the sprites
 themselves to avoid jagged edges in IE.


Thanks all for the tips. The htacces ones is especially useful :-)

tee


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The views expressed in this email are those of the sender and not Tesco.

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Company Number: 519500
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Registered Office: Tesco House, Delamare Road, Cheshunt, Hertfordshire
EN8 9SL
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Re: [WSG] your best practise for CSS sprites for elements that have no height declared

2008-11-25 Thread Christian Montoya
On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 9:06 AM, Foskett, Mike
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Sorry Brett, you're wrong.

 The png format will handle three levels of bit-depth including 8-bit which
 is the same as the gif format.

 The references you state are somewhat outdated and don't consider the
 different methods of compression that a png will handle natively.



 I suggest you try a few comparisons out yourself.

 They don't always work out smaller but most often they do.

Seconded. You can make 8 bit PNGs with as little as 8 colors or as
many as 256. Just try Save for Web  Devices in Photoshop CS3. I
don't even bother with GIFs anymore, the 8-bit PNGs come out smaller
almost every time.

-- 
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.net


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Re: [WSG] your best practise for CSS sprites for elements that have no height declared

2008-11-25 Thread neal
There is an issue where a PNG will not look exactly the same in IE vrs FF

So if you try to match a background with the PNG you may have issues
between the browsers


having said that I love PNGs myself

 On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 9:06 AM, Foskett, Mike
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Sorry Brett, you're wrong.

 The png format will handle three levels of bit-depth including 8-bit
 which
 is the same as the gif format.

 The references you state are somewhat outdated and don't consider the
 different methods of compression that a png will handle natively.



 I suggest you try a few comparisons out yourself.

 They don't always work out smaller but most often they do.

 Seconded. You can make 8 bit PNGs with as little as 8 colors or as
 many as 256. Just try Save for Web  Devices in Photoshop CS3. I
 don't even bother with GIFs anymore, the 8-bit PNGs come out smaller
 almost every time.

 --
 --
 Christian Montoya
 christianmontoya.net


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death is short
~furry lewis



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Re: [WSG] your best practise for CSS sprites for elements that have no height declared

2008-11-25 Thread Brett Patterson
First of all, No I am not! Second I have tried out differences. Notice the
difference in file sizes. Thirdly, I did not say that png did not support
8-bit, nowhere does it say that, it does however say that GIF only supports
a maximum of 256 colors. Fourthly, Todd your argument is off subject,
because neither MIke nor me ever mentioned it looking best, although I would
have to agree, PNG most certainly does look best, depending on the image.
And fifthly, Mike, sorry, but no, without using a PNGGauntlet or whatever, I
am not. All I simply stated is that gif files have to be smaller, (probably
should have said before) without using pnggauntlet. And I say without,
because anyone else may not have, or know where to get it. Well...and
sixthly, I use PNGs just as much you, but there are a lot of times when PNGs
will not cut the job, and GIFs are, again, majority of the time smaller and
better.

On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 10:37 AM, Christian Montoya [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote:

 On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 9:06 AM, Foskett, Mike
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Sorry Brett, you're wrong.
 
  The png format will handle three levels of bit-depth including 8-bit
 which
  is the same as the gif format.
 
  The references you state are somewhat outdated and don't consider the
  different methods of compression that a png will handle natively.
 
 
 
  I suggest you try a few comparisons out yourself.
 
  They don't always work out smaller but most often they do.

 Seconded. You can make 8 bit PNGs with as little as 8 colors or as
 many as 256. Just try Save for Web  Devices in Photoshop CS3. I
 don't even bother with GIFs anymore, the 8-bit PNGs come out smaller
 almost every time.

 --
 --
 Christian Montoya
 christianmontoya.net


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Re: [WSG] your best practise for CSS sprites for elements that have no height declared

2008-11-25 Thread Todd Budnikas

wouldn't best practise for CSS sprites include image quality?

On Nov 25, 2008, at 11:23 AM, Brett Patterson wrote:

First of all, No I am not! Second I have tried out differences.  
Notice the difference in file sizes. Thirdly, I did not say that png  
did not support 8-bit, nowhere does it say that, it does however say  
that GIF only supports a maximum of 256 colors. Fourthly, Todd your  
argument is off subject, because neither MIke nor me ever mentioned  
it looking best, although I would have to agree, PNG most certainly  
does look best, depending on the image. And fifthly, Mike, sorry,  
but no, without using a PNGGauntlet or whatever, I am not. All I  
simply stated is that gif files have to be smaller, (probably should  
have said before) without using pnggauntlet. And I say without,  
because anyone else may not have, or know where to get it.  
Well...and sixthly, I use PNGs just as much you, but there are a lot  
of times when PNGs will not cut the job, and GIFs are, again,  
majority of the time smaller and better.


On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 10:37 AM, Christian Montoya  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 9:06 AM, Foskett, Mike
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Sorry Brett, you're wrong.

 The png format will handle three levels of bit-depth including 8- 
bit which

 is the same as the gif format.

 The references you state are somewhat outdated and don't consider  
the

 different methods of compression that a png will handle natively.



 I suggest you try a few comparisons out yourself.

 They don't always work out smaller but most often they do.

Seconded. You can make 8 bit PNGs with as little as 8 colors or as
many as 256. Just try Save for Web  Devices in Photoshop CS3. I
don't even bother with GIFs anymore, the 8-bit PNGs come out smaller
almost every time.




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Re: [WSG] your best practise for CSS sprites for elements that have no height declared

2008-11-25 Thread Christian Montoya
On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 11:23 AM, Brett Patterson
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 First of all, No I am not! Second I have tried out differences. Notice the
 difference in file sizes. Thirdly, I did not say that png did not support
 8-bit, nowhere does it say that, it does however say that GIF only supports
 a maximum of 256 colors. Fourthly, Todd your argument is off subject,
 because neither MIke nor me ever mentioned it looking best, although I would
 have to agree, PNG most certainly does look best, depending on the image.
 And fifthly, Mike, sorry, but no, without using a PNGGauntlet or whatever, I
 am not. All I simply stated is that gif files have to be smaller, (probably
 should have said before) without using pnggauntlet. And I say without,
 because anyone else may not have, or know where to get it. Well...and
 sixthly, I use PNGs just as much you, but there are a lot of times when PNGs
 will not cut the job, and GIFs are, again, majority of the time smaller and
 better.

Brett, I am afraid that you might be using a bad image processing
program that does not do a good job of optimizing PNGs.

-- 
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.net


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Re: [WSG] your best practise for CSS sprites for elements that have no height declared

2008-11-25 Thread Andrew Maben
Please, could I ask you to take this discussion off-list if you  
want to continue. It's really degenerated to an unresolvable cycle of  
I'm right, No, I'M right... When it just comes down to Use the  
best available solution for the problem at hand


All compressed image file formats have strengths and weaknesses.

Andrew

On Nov 25, 2008, at 11:23 AM, Brett Patterson wrote:

First of all, No I am not! Second I have tried out differences.  
Notice the difference in file sizes. Thirdly, I did not say that  
png did not support 8-bit, nowhere does it say that, it does  
however say that GIF only supports a maximum of 256 colors.  
Fourthly, Todd your argument is off subject, because neither MIke  
nor me ever mentioned it looking best, although I would have to  
agree, PNG most certainly does look best, depending on the image.  
And fifthly, Mike, sorry, but no, without using a PNGGauntlet or  
whatever, I am not. All I simply stated is that gif files have to  
be smaller, (probably should have said before) without using  
pnggauntlet. And I say without, because anyone else may not have,  
or know where to get it. Well...and sixthly, I use PNGs just as  
much you, but there are a lot of times when PNGs will not cut the  
job, and GIFs are, again, majority of the time smaller and better.


On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 10:37 AM, Christian Montoya  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 9:06 AM, Foskett, Mike
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Sorry Brett, you're wrong.

 The png format will handle three levels of bit-depth including 8- 
bit which

 is the same as the gif format.

 The references you state are somewhat outdated and don't consider  
the

 different methods of compression that a png will handle natively.



 I suggest you try a few comparisons out yourself.

 They don't always work out smaller but most often they do.

Seconded. You can make 8 bit PNGs with as little as 8 colors or as
many as 256. Just try Save for Web  Devices in Photoshop CS3. I
don't even bother with GIFs anymore, the 8-bit PNGs come out smaller
almost every time.

--
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.net


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Re: [WSG] your best practise for CSS sprites for elements that have no height declared

2008-11-25 Thread David Dorward
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 There is an issue where a PNG will not look exactly the same in IE vrs FF
 
 So if you try to match a background with the PNG you may have issues
 between the browsers

That's easily resolved by stripping the gamma correction data from the
image using pngcrush.

http://hsivonen.iki.fi/png-gamma/

-- 
David Dorward   http://dorward.me.uk/


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RE: [WSG] your best practise for CSS sprites for elements that have no height declared

2008-11-25 Thread Heather
Hi, 

I’m new here not sure what’s going on but as far as web performance goes a
handy little online tool is http://www.smushit.com/ ( It goes beyond
Photoshop customisation) 

 

Heather

 

 

  _  

De : [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] De la
part de Andrew Maben
Envoyé : mardi 25 novembre 2008 17:54
À : wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Objet : Re: [WSG] your best practise for CSS sprites for elements that have
no height declared

 

Please, could I ask you to take this discussion off-list if you want to
continue. It's really degenerated to an unresolvable cycle of I'm right,
No, I'M right... When it just comes down to Use the best available
solution for the problem at hand 

 

All compressed image file formats have strengths and weaknesses.

 

Andrew

 

On Nov 25, 2008, at 11:23 AM, Brett Patterson wrote:





First of all, No I am not! Second I have tried out differences. Notice the
difference in file sizes. Thirdly, I did not say that png did not support
8-bit, nowhere does it say that, it does however say that GIF only supports
a maximum of 256 colors. Fourthly, Todd your argument is off subject,
because neither MIke nor me ever mentioned it looking best, although I would
have to agree, PNG most certainly does look best, depending on the image.
And fifthly, Mike, sorry, but no, without using a PNGGauntlet or whatever, I
am not. All I simply stated is that gif files have to be smaller, (probably
should have said before) without using pnggauntlet. And I say without,
because anyone else may not have, or know where to get it. Well...and
sixthly, I use PNGs just as much you, but there are a lot of times when PNGs
will not cut the job, and GIFs are, again, majority of the time smaller and
better.

On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 10:37 AM, Christian Montoya [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 9:06 AM, Foskett, Mike

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Sorry Brett, you're wrong.

 The png format will handle three levels of bit-depth including 8-bit which
 is the same as the gif format.

 The references you state are somewhat outdated and don't consider the
 different methods of compression that a png will handle natively.



 I suggest you try a few comparisons out yourself.

 They don't always work out smaller but most often they do.

Seconded. You can make 8 bit PNGs with as little as 8 colors or as
many as 256. Just try Save for Web  Devices in Photoshop CS3. I
don't even bother with GIFs anymore, the 8-bit PNGs come out smaller
almost every time.

--
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.net



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RE: [WSG] your best practise for CSS sprites for elements that have no height declared

2008-11-25 Thread neal
Sorry Mike I do not have an example at the moment - just remember past
headaches with it - apparently there is a solution
http://hsivonen.iki.fi/png-gamma/
per a previous email on this thread -
you can google the issue I'm sure

Neal
 There is an issue where a PNG will not look exactly the same in IE vrs
 FF

 Never come across that, have you a reference or example?
 I have come across something similar with Safari and Photoshop images
 not blending.
 But it wasn't png related it was a gamma setting in Photoshop.


 Brett:
 PNGgauntlet is freeware: http://brh.numbera.com/software/pnggauntlet/
 As is PNGcrush: http://pmt.sourceforge.net/pngcrush/
 If you're not using a decent compressor then png's are 15% - 20%
 oversized.

 I'll have to agree to disagree with you on gif file-size being smaller.


 Mike Foskett
 http://websemantics.co.uk/




 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: 25 November 2008 15:59
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Subject: Re: [WSG] your best practise for CSS sprites for elements that
 have no height declared

 There is an issue where a PNG will not look exactly the same in IE vrs
 FF

 So if you try to match a background with the PNG you may have issues
 between the browsers


 having said that I love PNGs myself

 On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 9:06 AM, Foskett, Mike
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Sorry Brett, you're wrong.

 The png format will handle three levels of bit-depth including 8-bit
 which
 is the same as the gif format.

 The references you state are somewhat outdated and don't consider the
 different methods of compression that a png will handle natively.



 I suggest you try a few comparisons out yourself.

 They don't always work out smaller but most often they do.

 Seconded. You can make 8 bit PNGs with as little as 8 colors or as
 many as 256. Just try Save for Web  Devices in Photoshop CS3. I
 don't even bother with GIFs anymore, the 8-bit PNGs come out smaller
 almost every time.

 --
 --
 Christian Montoya
 christianmontoya.net


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Re: [WSG] your best practise for CSS sprites for elements that have no height declared

2008-11-25 Thread Brett Patterson
OK. So, lets agree that (Start here quoting you:::If you're not using a
decent compressor then png's are 15% - 20% oversized.:::end quoting you
here.) we are both right. I am simply stating as such without using a
compressor (Start quoting you:::If you're not using a decent compressor then
png's are 15% - 20% oversized.:::), there for gif file-size IS smaller. In
which case I am right, especially here if you are required to use GIFs
either way, for backwards compatibility. Note, the linked site talks about
IE 5.5 and 6 --- http://homepage.ntlworld.com/bobosola/

To Andrew, one of the smartest things I have read to date. Agreed!!!

On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 12:19 PM, Foskett, Mike
[EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote:

 There is an issue where a PNG will not look exactly the same in IE vrs
 FF

 Never come across that, have you a reference or example?
 I have come across something similar with Safari and Photoshop images
 not blending.
 But it wasn't png related it was a gamma setting in Photoshop.


 Brett:
 PNGgauntlet is freeware: http://brh.numbera.com/software/pnggauntlet/
 As is PNGcrush: http://pmt.sourceforge.net/pngcrush/
 If you're not using a decent compressor then png's are 15% - 20%
 oversized.

 I'll have to agree to disagree with you on gif file-size being smaller.


 Mike Foskett
 http://websemantics.co.uk/




 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: 25 November 2008 15:59
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Subject: Re: [WSG] your best practise for CSS sprites for elements that
 have no height declared

 There is an issue where a PNG will not look exactly the same in IE vrs
 FF

 So if you try to match a background with the PNG you may have issues
 between the browsers


 having said that I love PNGs myself

  On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 9:06 AM, Foskett, Mike
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Sorry Brett, you're wrong.
 
  The png format will handle three levels of bit-depth including 8-bit
  which
  is the same as the gif format.
 
  The references you state are somewhat outdated and don't consider the
  different methods of compression that a png will handle natively.
 
 
 
  I suggest you try a few comparisons out yourself.
 
  They don't always work out smaller but most often they do.
 
  Seconded. You can make 8 bit PNGs with as little as 8 colors or as
  many as 256. Just try Save for Web  Devices in Photoshop CS3. I
  don't even bother with GIFs anymore, the 8-bit PNGs come out smaller
  almost every time.
 
  --
  --
  Christian Montoya
  christianmontoya.net
 
 
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  The views expressed in this email are those of the sender and not Tesco.

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 Company Number: 519500
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 Registered Office: Tesco House, Delamare Road, Cheshunt, Hertfordshire EN8
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Re: [WSG] your best practise for CSS sprites for elements that have no height declared

2008-11-25 Thread Jierna Wheeler
Thanks Heather for the link. I have taken a quick glance at smushit.com, and it 
looks promising.

Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-Original Message-
From: Heather [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 18:15:17 
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] your best practise for CSS sprites for elements that have no 
height declared


Hi, 

I�m new here not sure what�s going on but as far as web performance goes a
handy little online tool is http://www.smushit.com/ ( It goes beyond
Photoshop customisation) 

 

Heather

 

 

_  

De : [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] De la
part de Andrew Maben
Envoy� : mardi 25 novembre 2008 17:54
� : wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Objet : Re: [WSG] your best practise for CSS sprites for elements that have
no height declared

 

Please, could I ask you to take this discussion off-list if you want to
continue. It's really degenerated to an unresolvable cycle of I'm right,
No, I'M right... When it just comes down to Use the best available
solution for the problem at hand 

 

All compressed image file formats have strengths and weaknesses.

 

Andrew

 

On Nov 25, 2008, at 11:23 AM, Brett Patterson wrote:





First of all, No I am not! Second I have tried out differences. Notice the
difference in file sizes. Thirdly, I did not say that png did not support
8-bit, nowhere does it say that, it does however say that GIF only supports
a maximum of 256 colors. Fourthly, Todd your argument is off subject,
because neither MIke nor me ever mentioned it looking best, although I would
have to agree, PNG most certainly does look best, depending on the image.
And fifthly, Mike, sorry, but no, without using a PNGGauntlet or whatever, I
am not. All I simply stated is that gif files have to be smaller, (probably
should have said before) without using pnggauntlet. And I say without,
because anyone else may not have, or know where to get it. Well...and
sixthly, I use PNGs just as much you, but there are a lot of times when PNGs
will not cut the job, and GIFs are, again, majority of the time smaller and
better.

On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 10:37 AM, Christian Montoya [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 9:06 AM, Foskett, Mike

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Sorry Brett, you're wrong.

 The png format will handle three levels of bit-depth including 8-bit which
 is the same as the gif format.

 The references you state are somewhat outdated and don't consider the
 different methods of compression that a png will handle natively.



 I suggest you try a few comparisons out yourself.

 They don't always work out smaller but most often they do.

Seconded. You can make 8 bit PNGs with as little as 8 colors or as
many as 256. Just try Save for Web  Devices in Photoshop CS3. I
don't even bother with GIFs anymore, the 8-bit PNGs come out smaller
almost every time.

--
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.net



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Re: [WSG] your best practise for CSS sprites for elements that have no height declared

2008-11-25 Thread Dennis Lapcewich
Return Receipt
   
   Your   Re: [WSG] your best practise for CSS sprites for elements
   document:  that have no height declared 
   
   wasDennis Lapcewich/R6/USDAFS   
   received
   by: 
   
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Re: [WSG] your best practise for CSS sprites for elements that have no height declared

2008-11-25 Thread Johan Douma
Gif Vs PNG

If using PNG 8 / GIF, with the same amount of colours. Say 256.

Gif are often smaller than PNG in small sizes, less than 20px by 20px
example. I'll have to find out at what point a PNG is lighter. I suspect
it's around 500px.
In all the other cases PNG images will be lighter.

Although I haven't tested smshit and other tools, but they might remove
information from the header to make it lighter then GIF in every case.

The header in the PNG file is bigger than the header in GIF files, but uses
less space to save the image information.
That's why a PNG is heavier at really small size but will always be smaller
at larger sizes.

Although if you use the Save As then PNG in Photoshop  instead of Save
for web.
Photoshop adds an overhead of about 35kb-40kb (not really 20%), not sure
why, but probably color preset info, and a load of other stuff.
Shitty converters probably do the same.



Differences between FF and IE:

Gamma differences... That's not a really a browser related problem
(arguable).
The gamma is adjusted to have the images look the same on both Mac and
Windows. (1.8 vs 2.2 gamma)
Some browsers don't adjust gamma and some others do.

I usually don't save any colour information in the files, it's less trouble
with differences in the image colours and the colours set in the style
sheet. And I'm mostly working with print designers which doesn't help.

To remove any colours info, I think http://smushit.com/ can be used. In
photoshop, just uncheck Convert to sRGB.
Although don't forget to colour proof whatever you do; Mac sRGB, Win
sRGB an then Proof Colors.

Cheers,
Johan






Johan Douma
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


2008/11/26 Dennis Lapcewich [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Return Receipt

   Your   Re: [WSG] your best practise for CSS sprites for elements
   document:  that have no height declared

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   by:

   at:11/25/2008 10:56:38







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Re: [WSG] your best practise for CSS sprites for elements that have no height declared

2008-11-24 Thread Robert O'Rourke

tee wrote:
I am trying to optimize a site, though the file sizes of the overall 
images aren't so much of a problem but the http requests. So I am 
attempting to put 10 icons in one gif file, the individual icon size 
is merely 600b and the dimension is 18px by 12px.


I made a 18px by 150px to hold 10 icons vertically, that makes the 
size a mere 4kb, problem is, there is no width declared in the list 
element that the icon is declared as background image, so when I make 
the font size bigger, the 2nd icon in the vertically order see 
through; one more increasement, I can see the 3rd and half of the 4th 
icons. so I estimate I have to give a least 80px space in height to 
prevent this from happening, by doing so, the file size is double.


I guess this is alright as it reduces 9 http requests, but for other 
big images, I estimate I might have to make the height over 1500px to 
solve the problem that occurs when font size increases. I guess this 
is a twofold question: 1) How do you do to prevent the above issue 
from happening, if possible?; 2) Does this method really justify the 
reduces of http requests?



Thanks!

tee


If I remember rightly if you are able to save the image with a 
transparent background it keeps the file size lower because a 
transparent pixel takes less space than a pixel with colour information. 
You can put a coloured outline around the sprites themselves to avoid 
jagged edges in IE.


-Rob



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Re: [WSG] your best practise for CSS sprites for elements that have no height declared

2008-11-24 Thread Dennis Suitters

Check out
   http://www.alistapart.com/articles/sprites
and
   http://www.alistapart.com/articles/sprites2
I think this what your trying to achieve, or at least close to either 
one of those articles.


I haven't played much with horizontal sprite images, but usually use 
vertical ones, and I haven't tried them using lists.


Dennis, www.eyemaxstudios.net



Robert O'Rourke wrote:

tee wrote:
I am trying to optimize a site, though the file sizes of the overall 
images aren't so much of a problem but the http requests. So I am 
attempting to put 10 icons in one gif file, the individual icon size 
is merely 600b and the dimension is 18px by 12px.


I made a 18px by 150px to hold 10 icons vertically, that makes the 
size a mere 4kb, problem is, there is no width declared in the list 
element that the icon is declared as background image, so when I make 
the font size bigger, the 2nd icon in the vertically order see 
through; one more increasement, I can see the 3rd and half of the 4th 
icons. so I estimate I have to give a least 80px space in height to 
prevent this from happening, by doing so, the file size is double.


I guess this is alright as it reduces 9 http requests, but for other 
big images, I estimate I might have to make the height over 1500px to 
solve the problem that occurs when font size increases. I guess this 
is a twofold question: 1) How do you do to prevent the above issue 
from happening, if possible?; 2) Does this method really justify the 
reduces of http requests?



Thanks!

tee


If I remember rightly if you are able to save the image with a 
transparent background it keeps the file size lower because a 
transparent pixel takes less space than a pixel with colour 
information. You can put a coloured outline around the sprites 
themselves to avoid jagged edges in IE.


-Rob



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RE: [WSG] your best practise for CSS sprites for elements that have no height declared

2008-11-24 Thread michael.brockington
 If I remember rightly if you are able to save the image with a 
 transparent background it keeps the file size lower because a 
 transparent pixel takes less space than a pixel with colour 
 information. 


It may be possible to get better compression on a file that contains
lots of pixels of the same colour, but all pixels require the same basic
storage, regardless of whether they are transparent or not!

Mike


Mike Brockington
Web Development Specialist

www.calcResult.com
www.stephanieBlakey.me.uk
www.edinburgh.gov.uk

This message does not reflect the opinions of any entity other than the
author alone.


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Re: [WSG] your best practise for CSS sprites for elements that have no height declared

2008-11-24 Thread Brett Patterson
Yes, and colors in a row or horizontal line, so to speak, compress better
depending on the compression mechanism. Just say that jpeg files
read/compress horizontal, and gif files read/compress vertical, not sure if
that is exactly correct, just an example. But iii (if the size is 1
pixel wide for each i and 2 long for each dot and 6 long for each line, with
3 pixels spacing between each one) would be smaller as a gif file. While
iii would be larger as a jpeg file due to the stops in the color
changes. The less the compression mechanism has to stop storing a particular
color (i.e. #000, or black), the smaller the file size will be.

On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 10:01 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  If I remember rightly if you are able to save the image with a
  transparent background it keeps the file size lower because a
  transparent pixel takes less space than a pixel with colour
  information.


 It may be possible to get better compression on a file that contains
 lots of pixels of the same colour, but all pixels require the same basic
 storage, regardless of whether they are transparent or not!

 Mike


 Mike Brockington
 Web Development Specialist

 www.calcResult.com
 www.stephanieBlakey.me.uk
 www.edinburgh.gov.uk

 This message does not reflect the opinions of any entity other than the
 author alone.


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[WSG] your best practise for CSS sprites for elements that have no height declared

2008-11-23 Thread tee
I am trying to optimize a site, though the file sizes of the overall  
images aren't so much of  a problem but the http requests. So I am  
attempting to put 10 icons in one gif file, the individual icon size  
is merely 600b and the dimension is 18px by 12px.


I made a 18px by 150px to hold 10 icons vertically, that makes the  
size a mere 4kb, problem is, there is no width declared in the list  
element that the icon is declared as background image, so when I make  
the font size bigger, the 2nd icon in the vertically order see  
through; one more increasement, I can see the 3rd and half of the 4th  
icons.  so I estimate I have to give a least 80px space in height to  
prevent this from happening, by doing so, the file size is double.


I guess this is alright as it reduces 9 http requests, but  for other  
big images, I estimate I might have to make the height over 1500px to  
solve the problem that occurs when font size increases. I guess this  
is a twofold question: 1) How do you do to prevent the above issue  
from happening, if possible?; 2) Does this method really justify the  
reduces of http requests?



Thanks!

tee


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Re: [WSG] your best practise for CSS sprites for elements that have no height declared

2008-11-23 Thread Johan Douma
I often have sprites that are 800px or even more, I usually use 100px in
between the images.
But I think there's a limit on earlier versions of Opera that dont take
images bigger than 2000px (not sure at all might be more). So I generally
use 2 or 3 sprites if they get big, I still save a lot of requests.
Even with the spacing between the pictures, the file is often smaller, and
decreases loading time a lot, especially where the ping is really high;
where I live it's about 140ms.

Another thing you can do is cache all the images, so that it doesn't create
a new request when someboy visits the website again.

Here's an example for a htaccess file.

FilesMatch \.(jpg|jpeg|png|gif|swf)$
Header set Cache-Control max-age=120, public
/FilesMatch

120 seconds is 2 weeks. So if images change the visitor might not see
before another 2 weeks.
If doing updates just change the file name then it will work.

Cheers,

Johan
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


2008/11/24 tee [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 I am trying to optimize a site, though the file sizes of the overall images
 aren't so much of  a problem but the http requests. So I am attempting to
 put 10 icons in one gif file, the individual icon size is merely 600b and
 the dimension is 18px by 12px.

 I made a 18px by 150px to hold 10 icons vertically, that makes the size a
 mere 4kb, problem is, there is no width declared in the list element that
 the icon is declared as background image, so when I make the font size
 bigger, the 2nd icon in the vertically order see through; one more
 increasement, I can see the 3rd and half of the 4th icons.  so I estimate I
 have to give a least 80px space in height to prevent this from happening, by
 doing so, the file size is double.

 I guess this is alright as it reduces 9 http requests, but  for other big
 images, I estimate I might have to make the height over 1500px to solve the
 problem that occurs when font size increases. I guess this is a twofold
 question: 1) How do you do to prevent the above issue from happening, if
 possible?; 2) Does this method really justify the reduces of http requests?


 Thanks!

 tee


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