Re: [WSG] Are wireframes necessary when using web standards?

2004-08-09 Thread Andy Budd
Showing my ignorance:
Don't wireframes show flow only? Like the map view in Dreamweaver? Or 
is
it an actual possible design one creates often in Photoshop, though 
this
article indicated Freehand.
Hi Nancy,
Think storyboard, only without the graphical elements
Andy Budd
http://www.message.uk.com/
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RE: [WSG] Are wireframes necessary when using web standards?

2004-08-09 Thread Nancy Johnson
Thanks to all of you who responded to my question about wireframes. I
have a better idea now.

Nancy Johnson

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Andy Budd
Sent: Monday, August 09, 2004 5:01 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] Are wireframes necessary when using web standards?

 Showing my ignorance:

 Don't wireframes show flow only? Like the map view in Dreamweaver? Or 
 is
 it an actual possible design one creates often in Photoshop, though 
 this
 article indicated Freehand.

Hi Nancy,

Think storyboard, only without the graphical elements

Andy Budd

http://www.message.uk.com/

**
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Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/
 Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge
To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
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 Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge
To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
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Re: [WSG] Are wireframes necessary when using web standards?

2004-08-06 Thread Andy Budd
Ian Fenn wrote:
My client wanted something to show internal stakeholders so I started 
doing a few wireframes but suddenly wondered, Why am I doing this? 
Why don't I just build the website using web standards?

A day later I finished a working prototype of the website in question. 
The client is happy but another producer has been quite vocal with his 
opinion that the prototype was built too early.

From my perspective, a prototype has more value than wireframes. Web 
standards make development much more rapid, so we can respond quickly 
to any other needs thrown up before going into production.

What do you think?
Here's my take.
I think wireframes are a great first step in developing a site with a 
complex user flow. I'll often literally just sketch them on paper. They 
take no time at all and are very easy to change. Because they are 
rough, people don't get too attached to them as well, which is a bonus.

If I'm creating slightly more polished wireframes I'll do them in 
Freehand. I've all the widgets and templates created, so I can knock a 
batch of wireframes up very quickly. I can annotate them myself with 
instructions or print them out and have people scribble on them with 
suggestions. All very useful.

I can then hand them over to the client and they can sign each one off. 
This forces the client to understand and take responsibility for each 
wireframe and the signed off wireframes become part of our project 
spec.

HTML prototypes can be extremely useful as they give you and the client 
a real understanding of the user flow. It's fine looking through a 
batch of wireframes, but nothing gives you the feel of a website like, 
er, a website.

However I think you have to be a particularly gifted developer to be 
able to knock up a half descent HTML template in anything near the time 
it takes to create one in Freehand (or the graphics package of your 
choice).

Also for the HTML template to be as flexible as it's paper equivalent 
you really do need some mechanism for adding notes/instructions (like a 
div that you can toggle on and off) and allowing the client to comment 
and sign them off. Obviously as they are HTML there is no way you can 
really include them in your spec.

The other big issue is that people get very protective of their 'code'. 
I could see it being very tempting not to change something on a 
wireframe because it's a 'hassle' rather than for any strategic 
reasons. also their is the temptation to try and cut corners and turn 
your prototype into the real thing. Never a good idea in my book, as, 
by definition, a prototype is a rough, rushed version of what you 
actually want to build.

My position them would be to always wireframe and to build prototypes 
when you have the time/budget.

Andy Budd
http://www.message.uk.com/
**
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Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/
Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge
To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
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RE: [WSG] Are wireframes necessary when using web standards?

2004-08-06 Thread Nancy Johnson
Showing my ignorance:

Don't wireframes show flow only? Like the map view in Dreamweaver? Or is
it an actual possible design one creates often in Photoshop, though this
article indicated Freehand.

Nancy

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Andy Budd
Sent: Friday, August 06, 2004 5:19 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] Are wireframes necessary when using web standards?

Ian Fenn wrote:

 My client wanted something to show internal stakeholders so I started 
 doing a few wireframes but suddenly wondered, Why am I doing this? 
 Why don't I just build the website using web standards?

 A day later I finished a working prototype of the website in question.

 The client is happy but another producer has been quite vocal with his

 opinion that the prototype was built too early.

 From my perspective, a prototype has more value than wireframes. Web 
 standards make development much more rapid, so we can respond quickly 
 to any other needs thrown up before going into production.

 What do you think?

Here's my take.

I think wireframes are a great first step in developing a site with a 
complex user flow. I'll often literally just sketch them on paper. They 
take no time at all and are very easy to change. Because they are 
rough, people don't get too attached to them as well, which is a bonus.

If I'm creating slightly more polished wireframes I'll do them in 
Freehand. I've all the widgets and templates created, so I can knock a 
batch of wireframes up very quickly. I can annotate them myself with 
instructions or print them out and have people scribble on them with 
suggestions. All very useful.

I can then hand them over to the client and they can sign each one off. 
This forces the client to understand and take responsibility for each 
wireframe and the signed off wireframes become part of our project 
spec.

HTML prototypes can be extremely useful as they give you and the client 
a real understanding of the user flow. It's fine looking through a 
batch of wireframes, but nothing gives you the feel of a website like, 
er, a website.

However I think you have to be a particularly gifted developer to be 
able to knock up a half descent HTML template in anything near the time 
it takes to create one in Freehand (or the graphics package of your 
choice).

Also for the HTML template to be as flexible as it's paper equivalent 
you really do need some mechanism for adding notes/instructions (like a 
div that you can toggle on and off) and allowing the client to comment 
and sign them off. Obviously as they are HTML there is no way you can 
really include them in your spec.

The other big issue is that people get very protective of their 'code'. 
I could see it being very tempting not to change something on a 
wireframe because it's a 'hassle' rather than for any strategic 
reasons. also their is the temptation to try and cut corners and turn 
your prototype into the real thing. Never a good idea in my book, as, 
by definition, a prototype is a rough, rushed version of what you 
actually want to build.

My position them would be to always wireframe and to build prototypes 
when you have the time/budget.

Andy Budd

http://www.message.uk.com/

**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/
 Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge
To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
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The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/
 Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge
To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
**



RE: [WSG] Are wireframes necessary when using web standards?

2004-08-06 Thread Beau Lebens
Nancy,

Wireframe more often is used to refer to outlined page designs. I.e. a very
rough idea of what a page design will look like, normally just black outline
boxes, no colour, no real text, no nothing :)

They are a way to start visualising the design of a page and how all the
elements will fit together, but are by no means a final design.

HTH

Beau

// -Original Message-
// From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
// [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nancy Johnson
// Sent: Friday, August 06, 2004 3:37 AM
// To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
// Subject: RE: [WSG] Are wireframes necessary when using web standards?
// 
// 
// Showing my ignorance:
// 
// Don't wireframes show flow only? Like the map view in 
// Dreamweaver? Or is it an actual possible design one creates 
// often in Photoshop, though this article indicated Freehand.
// 
// Nancy
// 
// -Original Message-
// From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
// [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andy Budd
// Sent: Friday, August 06, 2004 5:19 AM
// To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
// Subject: Re: [WSG] Are wireframes necessary when using web standards?
// 
// Ian Fenn wrote:
// 
//  My client wanted something to show internal stakeholders 
// so I started
//  doing a few wireframes but suddenly wondered, Why am I 
// doing this? 
//  Why don't I just build the website using web standards?
// 
//  A day later I finished a working prototype of the website 
// in question.
// 
//  The client is happy but another producer has been quite 
// vocal with his
// 
//  opinion that the prototype was built too early.
// 
//  From my perspective, a prototype has more value than 
// wireframes. Web
//  standards make development much more rapid, so we can 
// respond quickly 
//  to any other needs thrown up before going into production.
// 
//  What do you think?
// 
// Here's my take.
// 
// I think wireframes are a great first step in developing a 
// site with a 
// complex user flow. I'll often literally just sketch them on 
// paper. They 
// take no time at all and are very easy to change. Because they are 
// rough, people don't get too attached to them as well, which 
// is a bonus.
// 
// If I'm creating slightly more polished wireframes I'll do them in 
// Freehand. I've all the widgets and templates created, so I 
// can knock a 
// batch of wireframes up very quickly. I can annotate them myself with 
// instructions or print them out and have people scribble on them with 
// suggestions. All very useful.
// 
// I can then hand them over to the client and they can sign 
// each one off. 
// This forces the client to understand and take responsibility 
// for each 
// wireframe and the signed off wireframes become part of our project 
// spec.
// 
// HTML prototypes can be extremely useful as they give you and 
// the client 
// a real understanding of the user flow. It's fine looking through a 
// batch of wireframes, but nothing gives you the feel of a 
// website like, 
// er, a website.
// 
// However I think you have to be a particularly gifted developer to be 
// able to knock up a half descent HTML template in anything 
// near the time 
// it takes to create one in Freehand (or the graphics package of your 
// choice).
// 
// Also for the HTML template to be as flexible as it's paper 
// equivalent 
// you really do need some mechanism for adding 
// notes/instructions (like a 
// div that you can toggle on and off) and allowing the client 
// to comment 
// and sign them off. Obviously as they are HTML there is no 
// way you can 
// really include them in your spec.
// 
// The other big issue is that people get very protective of 
// their 'code'. 
// I could see it being very tempting not to change something on a 
// wireframe because it's a 'hassle' rather than for any strategic 
// reasons. also their is the temptation to try and cut corners 
// and turn 
// your prototype into the real thing. Never a good idea in my 
// book, as, 
// by definition, a prototype is a rough, rushed version of what you 
// actually want to build.
// 
// My position them would be to always wireframe and to build 
// prototypes 
// when you have the time/budget.
// 
// Andy Budd
// 
// http://www.message.uk.com/
// 
// **
// The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
// 
// Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/
//  Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge
// To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004
// 
//  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
//  for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
// **
// 
// 
// **
// The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
// 
// Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/
//  Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge
// To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004
// 
//  See http

Re: [WSG] Are wireframes necessary when using web standards?

2004-08-06 Thread Wasabi
Hi,
Perhaps wireframes make more sense if you think of them as blueprints, 
or perhaps a sketch in the design process. I often use pencil sketches 
complete with color void of content when laying out a new site. I also 
use this approach with colored div's with just a text description of 
intended content, following the advice of Russ Weakley, when laying out 
a css design.

W
On Friday, August 6, 2004, at 11:14 AM, Beau Lebens wrote:
Nancy,
Wireframe more often is used to refer to outlined page designs. I.e. a 
very
rough idea of what a page design will look like, normally just black 
outline
boxes, no colour, no real text, no nothing :)

They are a way to start visualising the design of a page and how all 
the
elements will fit together, but are by no means a final design.

HTH
Beau
// -Original Message-
// From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
// [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nancy Johnson
// Sent: Friday, August 06, 2004 3:37 AM
// To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
// Subject: RE: [WSG] Are wireframes necessary when using web 
standards?
//
//
// Showing my ignorance:
//
// Don't wireframes show flow only? Like the map view in
// Dreamweaver? Or is it an actual possible design one creates
// often in Photoshop, though this article indicated Freehand.
//
// Nancy
//
// -Original Message-
// From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
// [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andy Budd
// Sent: Friday, August 06, 2004 5:19 AM
// To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
// Subject: Re: [WSG] Are wireframes necessary when using web 
standards?
//
// Ian Fenn wrote:
//
//  My client wanted something to show internal stakeholders
// so I started
//  doing a few wireframes but suddenly wondered, Why am I
// doing this?
//  Why don't I just build the website using web standards?
// 
//  A day later I finished a working prototype of the website
// in question.
//
//  The client is happy but another producer has been quite
// vocal with his
//
//  opinion that the prototype was built too early.
// 
//  From my perspective, a prototype has more value than
// wireframes. Web
//  standards make development much more rapid, so we can
// respond quickly
//  to any other needs thrown up before going into production.
// 
//  What do you think?
//
// Here's my take.
//
// I think wireframes are a great first step in developing a
// site with a
// complex user flow. I'll often literally just sketch them on
// paper. They
// take no time at all and are very easy to change. Because they are
// rough, people don't get too attached to them as well, which
// is a bonus.
//
// If I'm creating slightly more polished wireframes I'll do them in
// Freehand. I've all the widgets and templates created, so I
// can knock a
// batch of wireframes up very quickly. I can annotate them myself with
// instructions or print them out and have people scribble on them with
// suggestions. All very useful.
//
// I can then hand them over to the client and they can sign
// each one off.
// This forces the client to understand and take responsibility
// for each
// wireframe and the signed off wireframes become part of our project
// spec.
//
// HTML prototypes can be extremely useful as they give you and
// the client
// a real understanding of the user flow. It's fine looking through a
// batch of wireframes, but nothing gives you the feel of a
// website like,
// er, a website.
//
// However I think you have to be a particularly gifted developer to be
// able to knock up a half descent HTML template in anything
// near the time
// it takes to create one in Freehand (or the graphics package of your
// choice).
//
// Also for the HTML template to be as flexible as it's paper
// equivalent
// you really do need some mechanism for adding
// notes/instructions (like a
// div that you can toggle on and off) and allowing the client
// to comment
// and sign them off. Obviously as they are HTML there is no
// way you can
// really include them in your spec.
//
// The other big issue is that people get very protective of
// their 'code'.
// I could see it being very tempting not to change something on a
// wireframe because it's a 'hassle' rather than for any strategic
// reasons. also their is the temptation to try and cut corners
// and turn
// your prototype into the real thing. Never a good idea in my
// book, as,
// by definition, a prototype is a rough, rushed version of what you
// actually want to build.
//
// My position them would be to always wireframe and to build
// prototypes
// when you have the time/budget.
//
// Andy Budd
//
// http://www.message.uk.com/
//
// **
// The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
//
// Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/
//  Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge
// To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004
//
//  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
//  for some hints on posting to the list  getting help

Re: [WSG] Are wireframes necessary when using web standards?

2004-08-05 Thread Hugh Todd
Pardon my ignorance, but what are 'wireframes'?
I prefer building prototypes than hagging over wireframes.
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Re: [WSG] Are wireframes necessary when using web standards?

2004-08-05 Thread Neerav
http://www.iawiki.net/WireFrames
--
Neerav Bhatt
http://www.bhatt.id.au
Web Development  IT consultancy
Mobile: +61 (0)403 8000 27
http://www.bhatt.id.au/blog/ - Ramblings Thoughts
http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/neerav
Hugh Todd wrote:
Pardon my ignorance, but what are 'wireframes'?
I prefer building prototypes than hagging over wireframes.
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See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
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Re: [WSG] Are wireframes necessary when using web standards?

2004-08-05 Thread Justin French
I try and move the site away from paper and photoshop into lots of 
grey boxes using XHTML and CSS as soon as possible.  I guess it's 
somewhere in between a wireframe and prototype.  Considering everything 
is just groups of DIVs with IDs and classes, standards make it really 
easy to shuffle the boxes around and prototype *LIVE*...

I had a client who had some input after my first prototype.  Instead of 
going away  re-jigging the whole prototype, I opened up Firefox with 
the CSS Editor side bar and MADE THE CHANGES ON THE SPOT (with a few 
tweaks to the mark-up).

We achieved so much in one meeting that the client and myself were both 
amazed.  My guess is about 2-3 meetings worth of changes and iterations 
in less than 2 hours.  The client was able to SEE changes and assess 
them in realtime.

If you're quick with basic CSS layout, I can 100% vouch for CSS/XHTML 
based prototypes/mock-ups/wireframe hybrids.


On 06/08/2004, at 4:40 AM, Ian Fenn wrote:
Hello,
I'm in the process of redesigning a website. My client wanted 
something to
show internal stakeholders so I started doing a few wireframes but 
suddenly
wondered, Why am I doing this? Why don't I just build the website 
using web
standards?

A day later I finished a working prototype of the website in question. 
The
client is happy but another producer has been quite vocal with his 
opinion
that the prototype was built too early.

From my perspective, a prototype has more value than wireframes. Web
standards make development much more rapid, so we can respond quickly 
to any
other needs thrown up before going into production.

What do you think?
---
Justin French
http://indent.com.au
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
*