RE: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what
Thanks Steve for the clarification. OK, in the risk of showing more ignorant, I still have question. My understanding on WCAG guidelines, are the fundamental principle of DDA, Section 508 and similar law in other countries correct? When a website is to be DDA or Section 508 compliant, for lack of better guideline (or none) from the DDA law, we follow WCAG guidelines because there aren't anything else we can base on. Is it not that UK websites are to to be WCAG AA compliant so that it meets UK DDA compliant? 'Reasonable measures' takes into account that is correct; personally I feel that making an accessible site for all people regardless of disability take one's common sense, sensibility and compassion towards others who are at disadvantage doing certain things that most people like us take it for granted, these are also reasonable measures I think. Since the DDA law has not drafted out a comprehensive guideline for website maker/owner to follow but an unofficial WCAG we depend on, I think 'reasonable measures' can also be favored by defendant with his [EMAIL PROTECTED] lawyer :-) Under British law, can individual who brings a case under the DDA and the lawyer seek monetary compensation? Couple months ago a handful of ADA lawsuits handled by a same lawyer. http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2008/06/13/carollloyd.DTLh w=disability+lawsuitsn=001sc=1000 I followed the story because one of my clients was affected, she closed her business as a result. After reading some background stories, I am not sympathize to the plaintiffs. If a lawyer filed over 1500 cases like this, and fatten his wallet on every case, it's hard to convince that he was fighting for a just and noble cause but a tumour for ADA/DDA. If lawyer and plaintiff can seek monetary compensation, I honestly hope no ADA/DDA law ever applies to website. tee -- The DDA is only relevant if both the user and the website owner are based in the UK. In all other circumstances it can and should be ignored. And it has absolutely nothing to do with the WCAG. The DDA does not require WCAG compliance and does not even mention it. WCAG compliance could be used as part of a defence that reasonable measures were taken, but it may not be sufficient (the court may believe that the website owner had sufficient resources to conduct user testing that would have revealed accessibility issues that the WCAG testing missed). Section 508 only applied in the US, and only to Federal or Federally-funded websites. In all other circumstances it can and should be ignored. All of which leaves us with the WCAG, which are universally recognised. Unless a country has its own set of guidelines, WCAG is all you need to be concerned with. An individual who brings a case under the DDA can seek monetary compensation. However, the law is supposed to be a last resort, and users are expected to give the website owner the opportunity to make the website accessible before resorting to law. Failure to do so suggests that the plaintiff is just looking for a payout and that they are not actually interested in being able to use the website. The situation may be different in the US but you're not going to get ambulance-chasing lawyers stirring up trouble in the UK. Steve *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what
An individual who brings a case under the DDA can seek monetary compensation. However, the law is supposed to be a last resort, and users are expected to give the website owner the opportunity to make the website accessible before resorting to law. Failure to do so suggests that the plaintiff is just looking for a payout and that they are not actually interested in being able to use the website. The situation may be different in the US but you're not going to get ambulance-chasing lawyers stirring up trouble in the UK. However, even in the UK, precious few lawyers, if any, ever lose money on a case - one side or the other generally has to bear the costs of both sets of lawyers, unless there is an out-of-court settlement. Incidentally, the DDA does not specifically mention that it applies to websites - in fact, the specific regulations that state that .gov.uk websites MUST achieve WCAG AA could easily be taken as an indication that the DDA poses a lesser burden. I am not a lawyer, and even if I was, this has never been tested in court (to my knowledge) and therefore there is no legal precedent. In addition to what Steve said, it is my understanding that legal action cannot be taken in the UK until after notification has been made of the specific issue at hand. In other words, it is perfectly legal to create a site that breaks every WCAG guideline. If someone points out that it is inaccessible in a particular way, only then does it become necessary to work out what changes can reasonably be made to accommodate the issue - if it is unreasonably expensive then you don't have to change. If you change that one thing, but someone then points out another issue, you again get the chance to fix it before a lawsuit may be issued. None of this has anything directly to do with WCAG - knowledge of the latter is arguably as likely to get you into trouble as out of it, since you could then be deemed to be deliberately ignoring something from the AAA guidelines! Like so much of the Law, it is all a big mess, which is why Lawyers make big money, whether they win or lose. Regards, Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what
Hello everyone, Will try to keep it simple. I have much experience of working on various e-commerce systems and know the following: 1. Serious e-commerce systems are very complex (i.e. Magento) 2. 90% of e-commerce systems are not accessible, let alone standards compliant 3. Even templated UI solutions tend to require much work to 'clean up' - largely to do with complexity of the problem at hand 4. It takes a long time to develop a fully-featured, standards compliant e-commerce solution (usability aside) Magento is one of the best I have come by so far in terms of Open Source, but it's not standards compliant. Quick example why: checkout does not work with JS off and it uses in line JS to work. :-| Dirty, hacky and not necessarily good enough for some clients, although most tend not to care as long as it 'works'. Still today I am searching for an Open Source solution (or a cheap-ish one) that does the job nicely, but no luck so far after many hours invested into finding one. Standards wise the best one so far seems to be: http://www.tradingeye.com/ , but I haven't really thoroughly tried it yet. Whoever quotes $500 for developing a shopping cart is either just selling 'ideas' or does not have a first clue about what an e-commerce system is. Kindest regards, Jason PS: Oh yeah, how can I forget that automatically selling digital/downloadable products through the solution is (in my opinion) a must-have feature which Magento does not have and that functionality poses various other standards-related implementational issues with it. On Thu, Aug 14, 2008 at 3:12 AM, tee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Aug 13, 2008, at 7:00 PM, tee wrote: I'd been learning Magento since beta 1, guess I will add my 2 cents. Magento is very impressive, and you can make your magento store as compliant as it can be with its very flexible, a-bit-daunting template system. But to say magento is standards compliant is totally off-key in my opinion. The first template they came out, was very impressive for an open source, now, with each releases, many files got updated and you see inline styles, excessive use of div classes. I don't think Varien continues promoting Magento as Standards Compliant anymore. Also, forgot to add, accessible wise, it think it gets a minus point. Turn the js off, many things are gone, so far the fatal accessible issue I see is the category nav. In my theme, I try doing fly-out and I haven't been able to get the tabbing works in second level. tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what
Will try to keep it simple. I have much experience of working on various e-commerce systems and know the following: Serious e-commerce systems are very complex (i.e. Magento) 90% of e-commerce systems are not accessible, let alone standards compliant Even templated UI solutions tend to require much work to 'clean up' - largely to do with complexity of the problem at hand It takes a long time to develop a fully-featured, standards compliant e-commerce solution (usability aside) Agree to the above. Standards wise the best one so far seems to be: http://www.tradingeye.com/ , but I haven't really thoroughly tried it yet. It costs £300 man, I would prefer to get an open source solution, community paid support. Regards, -- Krystian - Sunlust - I-M-A: Freelancer on the side: http://sunlust.net Full time Website Designer: http://smesolutions.co.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what
On Aug 14, 2008, at 3:09 AM, Krystian - Sunlust wrote: It costs £300 man, I would prefer to get an open source solution, community paid support. Try getting support from Magento, likely £300 is comparably very inexpensive, considering that commercial software ought to give you support on every question you asked (if not, you go spread the bad word) :-) excerpt from tradingeye: Accessibility • WCAG AAA • UK DDA aware • Section 508 aware Placing 'WCAG AAA', DDA, Section 508 aware, it makes think they don't really know what they are taking. If they have scored AAA (how many sites you built have achieved this ?), why add the other two? tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what
On Aug 14, 2008, at 3:09 AM, Krystian - Sunlust wrote: It costs £300 man, I would prefer to get an open source solution, community paid support. Try getting support from Magento, likely £300 is comparably very inexpensive, considering that commercial software ought to give you support on every question you asked (if not, you go spread the bad word) :-) excerpt from tradingeye: Accessibility WCAG AAA UK DDA aware Section 508 aware Placing 'WCAG AAA', DDA, Section 508 aware, it makes think they don't really know what they are taking. If they have scored AAA (how many sites you built have achieved this ?), why add the other two? tee I have no idea what they mean by UK DDA aware. DDA is not a technical standard and has nothing to do with the WCAG. Compliance with WCAG (even AAA) is no guarantee that a site meets the requirements of the DDA. The latter is concerned with 'actual outcomes' i.e. can people with disabilities access the site. It is reasonable to include Section 508 because it is not a subset of WCAG AAA. It is substantially based on WCAG but it has additional requirements. Steve *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what
On Aug 14, 2008, at 5:22 AM, Steve Green wrote: I have no idea what they mean by UK DDA aware. DDA is not a technical standard and has nothing to do with the WCAG. Compliance with WCAG (even AAA) is no guarantee that a site meets the requirements of the DDA. The latter is concerned with 'actual outcomes' i.e. can people with disabilities access the site. It is reasonable to include Section 508 because it is not a subset of WCAG AAA. It is substantially based on WCAG but it has additional requirements. Steve I thought that UK DDA is based on the WCAG AA guideline no? One time I did a template coding for a UK company, and was asked to follow WCAG AA guideline. As for Section 508, my impression is that, despite the additional requirements, it doesn't even quite meet the WCAG A. In the early years of my Standard Compliant pilgrim, I did a couple sites that were WCAG AAA compliant (if Bobby was right) so that I could get a field experience then reading the WCAG guidelines that I have had difficulty to comprehend. I agree that compliance with WCAG is of no guarantee that a site is fully accessibly, however, I do think that if a site scores WCAG AAA, it pretty much covers section 508, and maybe UK DDA (I am not very famliar with this guideline). tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what
I thought that UK DDA is based on the WCAG AA guideline no? One time I did a template coding for a UK company, and was asked to follow WCAG AA guideline. As for Section 508, my impression is that, despite the additional requirements, it doesn't even quite meet the WCAG A. In the early years of my Standard Compliant pilgrim, I did a couple sites that were WCAG AAA compliant (if Bobby was right) so that I could get a field experience then reading the WCAG guidelines that I have had difficulty to comprehend. I agree that compliance with WCAG is of no guarantee that a site is fully accessibly, however, I do think that if a site scores WCAG AAA, it pretty much covers section 508, and maybe UK DDA (I am not very famliar with this guideline). tee No, the DDA is not based on WCAG. The DDA is not a technical standard, it is a UK law. If a website is not accessible to someone, they can (in theory) bring a case against the website owner under the DDA regardless of whether the website meets WCAG A, AA, AAA or any other technical standard. If the court deem that the website owner did not take 'reasonable measures' to ensure that the website is accessible, they will lose the case. 'Reasonable measures' takes into account all relevant factors including the resources available. In the case of a small company with a website with complex content such as a GIS (geographic information system) the court may well deem that it would not be reasonable to expect the company to bear the cost of making it accessible (to the particular person who brought the case). The site would therefore be DDA compliant (for that person) despite not even meeting WCAG A. Note that only an individual can bring a case under the DDA because it is necessary to show that they have suffered discrimination. It is not possible to bring a class action, nor can a third party (such as a lobbying group) bring an action although they may support an individual in bringing the action. The findings of the court only apply to that individual so the phrase 'DDA compliant' actually has no meaning except in its application to a single person. Steve *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what
On Aug 14, 2008, at 12:44 PM, Steve Green wrote: No, the DDA is not based on WCAG. The DDA is not a technical standard, it is a UK law. If a website is not accessible to someone, they can (in theory) bring a case against the website owner under the DDA regardless of whether the website meets WCAG A, AA, AAA or any other technical standard. If the court deem that the website owner did not take 'reasonable measures' to ensure that the website is accessible, they will lose the case. 'Reasonable measures' takes into account all relevant factors including the resources available. In the case of a small company with a website with complex content such as a GIS (geographic information system) the court may well deem that it would not be reasonable to expect the company to bear the cost of making it accessible (to the particular person who brought the case). The site would therefore be DDA compliant (for that person) despite not even meeting WCAG A. Note that only an individual can bring a case under the DDA because it is necessary to show that they have suffered discrimination. It is not possible to bring a class action, nor can a third party (such as a lobbying group) bring an action although they may support an individual in bringing the action. The findings of the court only apply to that individual so the phrase 'DDA compliant' actually has no meaning except in its application to a single person. Thanks Steve for the clarification. OK, in the risk of showing more ignorant, I still have question. My understanding on WCAG guidelines, are the fundamental principle of DDA, Section 508 and similar law in other countries correct? When a website is to be DDA or Section 508 compliant, for lack of better guideline (or none) from the DDA law, we follow WCAG guidelines because there aren't anything else we can base on. Is it not that UK websites are to to be WCAG AA compliant so that it meets UK DDA compliant? 'Reasonable measures' takes into account that is correct; personally I feel that making an accessible site for all people regardless of disability take one's common sense, sensibility and compassion towards others who are at disadvantage doing certain things that most people like us take it for granted, these are also reasonable measures I think. Since the DDA law has not drafted out a comprehensive guideline for website maker/owner to follow but an unofficial WCAG we depend on, I think 'reasonable measures' can also be favored by defendant with his [EMAIL PROTECTED] lawyer :-) Under British law, can individual who brings a case under the DDA and the lawyer seek monetary compensation? Couple months ago a handful of ADA lawsuits handled by a same lawyer. http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2008/06/13/carollloyd.DTLhw=disability+lawsuitsn=001sc=1000 I followed the story because one of my clients was affected, she closed her business as a result. After reading some background stories, I am not sympathize to the plaintiffs. If a lawyer filed over 1500 cases like this, and fatten his wallet on every case, it's hard to convince that he was fighting for a just and noble cause but a tumour for ADA/DDA. If lawyer and plaintiff can seek monetary compensation, I honestly hope no ADA/DDA law ever applies to website. tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what
Do the free [shopping carts] (such as ZenCart and OsCommerce) do an adequate job ? I once did a ZenCart job for a friend and found it extremely confusing. ZenCart has hundreds of options and if you're new to the software you should prepare for a lot of searching on the net. That said there are solutions for probably all of your problems and the community is helpful. ZenCart's template system is unusual as it requires you to create a separate folder with your project's name for each template you want to override - a scattered approach which adds to the confusion. You need to thoroughly document what you're doing or you will be searching again if the client needs changes in a few months time. I have spent many unpaid hours trying to figure out ZenCart. It's no surprise that there's a busy market of experts (or wannabes) who offer templates and solutions for you. My friend populated the shop at the time because he was savvy with Photoshop and could do all the image work himself. But you could as well end up doing that too if your client hasn't that knowledge. I think you should weigh your time vs. the fee your colleague charges. You might want to learn ZenCart or another eCommerce solution so you can do it in the future. Cheers, Jens The information contained in this e-mail message and any accompanying files is or may be confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, dissemination, reliance, forwarding, printing or copying of this e-mail or any attached files is unauthorised. This e-mail is subject to copyright. No part of it should be reproduced, adapted or communicated without the written consent of the copyright owner. If you have received this e-mail in error please advise the sender immediately by return e-mail or telephone and delete all copies. Fairfax does not guarantee the accuracy or completeness of any information contained in this e-mail or attached files. Internet communications are not secure, therefore Fairfax does not accept legal responsibility for the contents of this message or attached files. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what
Do the free [shopping carts] (such as ZenCart and OsCommerce) do an adequate job ? My friend populated the shop at the time because he was savvy with Photoshop and could do all the image work himself. But you could as well end up doing that too if your client hasn't that knowledge. That's what I am afraid of. I think you should weigh your time vs. the fee your colleague charges. You might want to learn ZenCart or another eCommerce solution so you can do it in the future. Thanks, Jens - will re-think if a cart is really necessary. Kind regards Lyn *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what
I think it would be worth your while to go and check out Magento - http://www.magentocommerce.com/ The makers of this product have done a great job of making it standards compliant, as well as very usable. We're in the process of integrating it into a new project. Regards, Nick 8bits Media On 13 Aug 2008, at 16:39, Lynette Smith wrote: Do the free [shopping carts] (such as ZenCart and OsCommerce) do an adequate job ? My friend populated the shop at the time because he was savvy with Photoshop and could do all the image work himself. But you could as well end up doing that too if your client hasn't that knowledge. That's what I am afraid of. I think you should weigh your time vs. the fee your colleague charges. You might want to learn ZenCart or another eCommerce solution so you can do it in the future. Thanks, Jens - will re-think if a cart is really necessary. Kind regards Lyn *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what
. I think it would be worth your while to go and check out Magento - http://www.magentocommerce.com/ The makers of this product have done a great job of making it standards compliant, as well as very usable. We're in the process of integrating it into a new project. OK - thanks- will do! Kind regards Lyn *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what
I used osCommerce and Virtuemart with Joomla. osCommerce is pretty straightforward, Virtuemart is a plugin/component for Joomla CMS and I prefer it even thought it's not as good (it's simpler tho). You don't need any photoshop knowledge above resizing/cutting photos and that's really basics. Now about inputting products, I have made a shop for a friend who has over 1000 products so obviously he and his team had to input all of them (I've prepared and printed a tutorial for them with screenshots of the back-end), but on few other projects when there were only 3-10 products I've done the job myself. The real biggy when setting those shops is to test them thoroughly, in every possible way before launching it live/starting proper out-of-the-site SEO. Then, in the end, tell your client that a shop itself won't make ANY money if not SEO'd properly and advertised in a proper nieche depending on your product/places you ship to, and get some extra $$$ for the job, depending on the competition. Regards, -- Krystian - Sunlust - I-M-A: Freelancer on the side: http://sunlust.net Full time Website Designer: http://smesolutions.co.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what
.Thanks Krystian You don't need any photoshop knowledge above resizing/cutting photos and that's really basics. Now about inputting products, I have made a shop for a friend who has over 1000 products so obviously he and his team had to input all of them (I've prepared and printed a tutorial for them with screenshots of the back-end), but on few other projects when there were only 3-10 products I've done the job myself. That's pretty much what I thought. The real biggy when setting those shops is to test them thoroughly, in every possible way before launching it live/starting proper out-of-the-site SEO. Then, in the end, tell your client that a shop itself won't make ANY money if not SEO'd properly and advertised in a proper nieche depending on your product/places you ship to, and get some extra $$$ for the job, depending on the competition. Thanks! Lyn *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what
I am a pretty active magento developer and highly recommend it as well.. but it really only suits those clients whose whole site is an ecommerce solution. For example, take a look at a client of mine - julesroc.com.au I am working on a custom solution that allows ecommerce to be a part of a clients website. So the first question I would be asking is what are the needs of the client. A complete ecommerce solution or an ecommerce component within their site. Cheers Adam magento user: tweakmag - Original Message - From: 8bits Media To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 5:00 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what I think it would be worth your while to go and check out Magento - http://www.magentocommerce.com/ The makers of this product have done a great job of making it standards compliant, as well as very usable. We're in the process of integrating it into a new project. Regards, Nick 8bits Media On 13 Aug 2008, at 16:39, Lynette Smith wrote: Do the free [shopping carts] (such as ZenCart and OsCommerce) do an adequate job ? My friend populated the shop at the time because he was savvy with Photoshop and could do all the image work himself. But you could as well end up doing that too if your client hasn't that knowledge. That's what I am afraid of. I think you should weigh your time vs. the fee your colleague charges. You might want to learn ZenCart or another eCommerce solution so you can do it in the future. Thanks, Jens - will re-think if a cart is really necessary. Kind regards Lyn *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what
why would it not work as a directory under the main site tree, i.e.: www.domain.com.au/shop/ . I think developers are keen on a lightweight, simple to use and deploy and template shopping cart system. ZenCart and osCommmerce are terrible to both set up and use, so lose-lose IMHO. Surely a simple shopping cart that is relatively genertic isn't THAT complicated to do? Joe On Aug 13, 2008, at 10:34, Adam Martin wrote: I am a pretty active magento developer and highly recommend it as well.. but it really only suits those clients whose whole site is an ecommerce solution. For example, take a look at a client of mine - julesroc.com.au I am working on a custom solution that allows ecommerce to be a part of a clients website. So the first question I would be asking is what are the needs of the client. A complete ecommerce solution or an ecommerce component within their site. Cheers Adam magento user: tweakmag - Original Message - From: 8bits Media To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 5:00 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what I think it would be worth your while to go and check out Magento - http://www.magentocommerce.com/ The makers of this product have done a great job of making it standards compliant, as well as very usable. We're in the process of integrating it into a new project. Regards, Nick 8bits Media On 13 Aug 2008, at 16:39, Lynette Smith wrote: Do the free [shopping carts] (such as ZenCart and OsCommerce) do an adequate job ? My friend populated the shop at the time because he was savvy with Photoshop and could do all the image work himself. But you could as well end up doing that too if your client hasn't that knowledge. That's what I am afraid of. I think you should weigh your time vs. the fee your colleague charges. You might want to learn ZenCart or another eCommerce solution so you can do it in the future. Thanks, Jens - will re-think if a cart is really necessary. Kind regards Lyn *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** == Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.typingthevoid.com http://twitter.com/wheelyweb *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what
On Aug 13, 2008, at 1:34 AM, Lynette Smith wrote: Have always avoided doing sites that needed a shopping cart but a new client will need one. I would appreciate some advice. Do the free ones (such as ZenCart and OsCommerce) do an adequate job or would I be better off advising my client to go for a paid one. I have a colleague who does custom-designed ones and I would be looking at about a minimum of $500. The second question is who does what? Once I have the cart (either a downloaded free one or a custom one) and it is uploaded to the website, who inputs the products etc? I imagine the client would need to be shown how to do this? What is the usual procedure? Thanks. Hi Lyn, Don't have much to offer, but just wanted to let you know I looked into a custom cart awhile back for a job that never went through, but the cart was going to cost around $500 by the time it was ready. So while it seems like alot of money, it's probably a decent deal. Just my 2¢ :) -- Jason Pruim Raoset Inc. Technology Manager MQC Specialist 11287 James St Holland, MI 49424 www.raoset.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what
Hi Joe, Can you recommend a shopping cart system that is easy to set up and use, be it open source or not? Trying to make a decision myself at the moment and would be interested to hear your thoughts. Cheers Paul From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joseph Ortenzi Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 10:57 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what why would it not work as a directory under the main site tree, i.e.: www.domain.com.au/shop/http://www.domain.com.au/shop/. I think developers are keen on a lightweight, simple to use and deploy and template shopping cart system. ZenCart and osCommmerce are terrible to both set up and use, so lose-lose IMHO. Surely a simple shopping cart that is relatively genertic isn't THAT complicated to do? Joe On Aug 13, 2008, at 10:34, Adam Martin wrote: I am a pretty active magento developer and highly recommend it as well.. but it really only suits those clients whose whole site is an ecommerce solution. For example, take a look at a client of mine - julesroc.com.au I am working on a custom solution that allows ecommerce to be a part of a clients website. So the first question I would be asking is what are the needs of the client. A complete ecommerce solution or an ecommerce component within their site. Cheers Adam magento user: tweakmag - Original Message - From: 8bits Mediamailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgmailto:wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 5:00 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what I think it would be worth your while to go and check out Magento - http://www.magentocommerce.com/ The makers of this product have done a great job of making it standards compliant, as well as very usable. We're in the process of integrating it into a new project. Regards, Nick 8bits Media On 13 Aug 2008, at 16:39, Lynette Smith wrote: Do the free [shopping carts] (such as ZenCart and OsCommerce) do an adequate job ? My friend populated the shop at the time because he was savvy with Photoshop and could do all the image work himself. But you could as well end up doing that too if your client hasn't that knowledge. That's what I am afraid of. I think you should weigh your time vs. the fee your colleague charges. You might want to learn ZenCart or another eCommerce solution so you can do it in the future. Thanks, Jens - will re-think if a cart is really necessary. Kind regards Lyn *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *** == Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.typingthevoid.com http://twitter.com/wheelyweb *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what
$500 for a custom job that, done properly, would be a couple of days work at least for an experienced developer sounds pretty cheap to me... That's half my day rate Joe On Aug 13, 2008, at 11:15, Jason Pruim wrote: On Aug 13, 2008, at 1:34 AM, Lynette Smith wrote: Have always avoided doing sites that needed a shopping cart but a new client will need one. I would appreciate some advice. Do the free ones (such as ZenCart and OsCommerce) do an adequate job or would I be better off advising my client to go for a paid one. I have a colleague who does custom-designed ones and I would be looking at about a minimum of $500. The second question is who does what? Once I have the cart (either a downloaded free one or a custom one) and it is uploaded to the website, who inputs the products etc? I imagine the client would need to be shown how to do this? What is the usual procedure? Thanks. Hi Lyn, Don't have much to offer, but just wanted to let you know I looked into a custom cart awhile back for a job that never went through, but the cart was going to cost around $500 by the time it was ready. So while it seems like alot of money, it's probably a decent deal. Just my 2¢ :) -- Jason Pruim Raoset Inc. Technology Manager MQC Specialist 11287 James St Holland, MI 49424 www.raoset.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** == Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.typingthevoid.com http://twitter.com/wheelyweb *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what
I've recently started to use drupal with the ubercart module. It's really easy to set up and it's pretty easy to theme too. drupal on its own is a great cms. Download the whole package from ubercart though http://www.ubercart.org/downloads The deluxe package includes drupal and some extra modules. I would steer clear of zencart - not keen on that software at all. Not very easy to customise. Darren Lovelock Munkyonline.co.uk Quoting Paul Collins [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi Joe, Can you recommend a shopping cart system that is easy to set up and use, be it open source or not? Trying to make a decision myself at the moment and would be interested to hear your thoughts. Cheers Paul From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joseph Ortenzi Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 10:57 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what why would it not work as a directory under the main site tree, i.e.: www.domain.com.au/shop/http://www.domain.com.au/shop/. I think developers are keen on a lightweight, simple to use and deploy and template shopping cart system. ZenCart and osCommmerce are terrible to both set up and use, so lose-lose IMHO. Surely a simple shopping cart that is relatively genertic isn't THAT complicated to do? Joe On Aug 13, 2008, at 10:34, Adam Martin wrote: I am a pretty active magento developer and highly recommend it as well.. but it really only suits those clients whose whole site is an ecommerce solution. For example, take a look at a client of mine - julesroc.com.au I am working on a custom solution that allows ecommerce to be a part of a clients website. So the first question I would be asking is what are the needs of the client. A complete ecommerce solution or an ecommerce component within their site. Cheers Adam magento user: tweakmag - Original Message - From: 8bits Mediamailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgmailto:wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 5:00 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what I think it would be worth your while to go and check out Magento - http://www.magentocommerce.com/ The makers of this product have done a great job of making it standards compliant, as well as very usable. We're in the process of integrating it into a new project. Regards, Nick 8bits Media On 13 Aug 2008, at 16:39, Lynette Smith wrote: Do the free [shopping carts] (such as ZenCart and OsCommerce) do an adequate job ? My friend populated the shop at the time because he was savvy with Photoshop and could do all the image work himself. But you could as well end up doing that too if your client hasn't that knowledge. That's what I am afraid of. I think you should weigh your time vs. the fee your colleague charges. You might want to learn ZenCart or another eCommerce solution so you can do it in the future. Thanks, Jens - will re-think if a cart is really necessary. Kind regards Lyn *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *** == Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.typingthevoid.com http://twitter.com/wheelyweb *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what
Hi Jason Don't have much to offer, but just wanted to let you know I looked into a custom cart awhile back for a job that never went through, but the cart was going to cost around $500 by the time it was ready. So while it seems like alot of money, it's probably a decent deal. Well, if anything went wrong I would be able to get it sorted quicker via a colleague than from an open source download, is what I am thinking. Thanks, Jason. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what
I agree... you get what you pay for. $500 is nothing. I know that I have spent about 500hrs in building my integrated ecomerce solution - but it has been well thought out - it is stds compliant etc etc. I would suggest having a look at shopify if you want a cheap basic but good ecommerce solution - Original Message - From: Joseph Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 8:38 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what $500 for a custom job that, done properly, would be a couple of days work at least for an experienced developer sounds pretty cheap to me... That's half my day rate Joe On Aug 13, 2008, at 11:15, Jason Pruim wrote: On Aug 13, 2008, at 1:34 AM, Lynette Smith wrote: Have always avoided doing sites that needed a shopping cart but a new client will need one. I would appreciate some advice. Do the free ones (such as ZenCart and OsCommerce) do an adequate job or would I be better off advising my client to go for a paid one. I have a colleague who does custom-designed ones and I would be looking at about a minimum of $500. The second question is who does what? Once I have the cart (either a downloaded free one or a custom one) and it is uploaded to the website, who inputs the products etc? I imagine the client would need to be shown how to do this? What is the usual procedure? Thanks. Hi Lyn, Don't have much to offer, but just wanted to let you know I looked into a custom cart awhile back for a job that never went through, but the cart was going to cost around $500 by the time it was ready. So while it seems like alot of money, it's probably a decent deal. Just my 2¢ :) -- Jason Pruim Raoset Inc. Technology Manager MQC Specialist 11287 James St Holland, MI 49424 www.raoset.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** == Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.typingthevoid.com http://twitter.com/wheelyweb *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what
Anyone tried these? Someone just recommended them here: http://www.shopify.com/ http://www.freecsscart.com/ http://www.tradingeye.com/department/products/ Cheers -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 11:51 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what I've recently started to use drupal with the ubercart module. It's really easy to set up and it's pretty easy to theme too. drupal on its own is a great cms. Download the whole package from ubercart though http://www.ubercart.org/downloads The deluxe package includes drupal and some extra modules. I would steer clear of zencart - not keen on that software at all. Not very easy to customise. Darren Lovelock Munkyonline.co.uk Quoting Paul Collins [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi Joe, Can you recommend a shopping cart system that is easy to set up and use, be it open source or not? Trying to make a decision myself at the moment and would be interested to hear your thoughts. Cheers Paul From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joseph Ortenzi Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 10:57 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what why would it not work as a directory under the main site tree, i.e.: www.domain.com.au/shop/http://www.domain.com.au/shop/. I think developers are keen on a lightweight, simple to use and deploy and template shopping cart system. ZenCart and osCommmerce are terrible to both set up and use, so lose-lose IMHO. Surely a simple shopping cart that is relatively genertic isn't THAT complicated to do? Joe On Aug 13, 2008, at 10:34, Adam Martin wrote: I am a pretty active magento developer and highly recommend it as well.. but it really only suits those clients whose whole site is an ecommerce solution. For example, take a look at a client of mine - julesroc.com.au I am working on a custom solution that allows ecommerce to be a part of a clients website. So the first question I would be asking is what are the needs of the client. A complete ecommerce solution or an ecommerce component within their site. Cheers Adam magento user: tweakmag - Original Message - From: 8bits Mediamailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgmailto:wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 5:00 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what I think it would be worth your while to go and check out Magento - http://www.magentocommerce.com/ The makers of this product have done a great job of making it standards compliant, as well as very usable. We're in the process of integrating it into a new project. Regards, Nick 8bits Media On 13 Aug 2008, at 16:39, Lynette Smith wrote: Do the free [shopping carts] (such as ZenCart and OsCommerce) do an adequate job ? My friend populated the shop at the time because he was savvy with Photoshop and could do all the image work himself. But you could as well end up doing that too if your client hasn't that knowledge. That's what I am afraid of. I think you should weigh your time vs. the fee your colleague charges. You might want to learn ZenCart or another eCommerce solution so you can do it in the future. Thanks, Jens - will re-think if a cart is really necessary. Kind regards Lyn *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] rg *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] rg *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] rg *** == Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.typingthevoid.com http://twitter.com/wheelyweb *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what
which one is yours Martin? can I see an example? I have a client looking for one right now... might custom build bits, might not Joe On Aug 13, 2008, at 12:05, Adam Martin wrote: I agree... you get what you pay for. $500 is nothing. I know that I have spent about 500hrs in building my integrated ecomerce solution - but it has been well thought out - it is stds compliant etc etc. I would suggest having a look at shopify if you want a cheap basic but good ecommerce solution - Original Message - From: Joseph Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 8:38 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what $500 for a custom job that, done properly, would be a couple of days work at least for an experienced developer sounds pretty cheap to me... That's half my day rate Joe On Aug 13, 2008, at 11:15, Jason Pruim wrote: On Aug 13, 2008, at 1:34 AM, Lynette Smith wrote: Have always avoided doing sites that needed a shopping cart but a new client will need one. I would appreciate some advice. Do the free ones (such as ZenCart and OsCommerce) do an adequate job or would I be better off advising my client to go for a paid one. I have a colleague who does custom-designed ones and I would be looking at about a minimum of $500. The second question is who does what? Once I have the cart (either a downloaded free one or a custom one) and it is uploaded to the website, who inputs the products etc? I imagine the client would need to be shown how to do this? What is the usual procedure? Thanks. Hi Lyn, Don't have much to offer, but just wanted to let you know I looked into a custom cart awhile back for a job that never went through, but the cart was going to cost around $500 by the time it was ready. So while it seems like alot of money, it's probably a decent deal. Just my 2¢ :) -- Jason Pruim Raoset Inc. Technology Manager MQC Specialist 11287 James St Holland, MI 49424 www.raoset.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** == Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.typingthevoid.com http://twitter.com/wheelyweb *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** == Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.typingthevoid.com http://twitter.com/wheelyweb *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what
Could some of you guys trim the messages? It's really hard to read when you top post above useless tones of wording. Regards, -- Krystian - Sunlust - I-M-A: Freelancer on the side: http://sunlust.net Full time Website Designer: http://smesolutions.co.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what
Hi Joe, I will be putting it out into the wild in a few weeks - just putting the final touches on it now. Cheers Adam - Original Message - From: Joseph Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 9:19 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what which one is yours Martin? can I see an example? I have a client looking for one right now... might custom build bits, might not Joe On Aug 13, 2008, at 12:05, Adam Martin wrote: I agree... you get what you pay for. $500 is nothing. I know that I have spent about 500hrs in building my integrated ecomerce solution - but it has been well thought out - it is stds compliant etc etc. I would suggest having a look at shopify if you want a cheap basic but good ecommerce solution - Original Message - From: Joseph Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 8:38 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what $500 for a custom job that, done properly, would be a couple of days work at least for an experienced developer sounds pretty cheap to me... That's half my day rate Joe On Aug 13, 2008, at 11:15, Jason Pruim wrote: On Aug 13, 2008, at 1:34 AM, Lynette Smith wrote: Have always avoided doing sites that needed a shopping cart but a new client will need one. I would appreciate some advice. Do the free ones (such as ZenCart and OsCommerce) do an adequate job or would I be better off advising my client to go for a paid one. I have a colleague who does custom-designed ones and I would be looking at about a minimum of $500. The second question is who does what? Once I have the cart (either a downloaded free one or a custom one) and it is uploaded to the website, who inputs the products etc? I imagine the client would need to be shown how to do this? What is the usual procedure? Thanks. Hi Lyn, Don't have much to offer, but just wanted to let you know I looked into a custom cart awhile back for a job that never went through, but the cart was going to cost around $500 by the time it was ready. So while it seems like alot of money, it's probably a decent deal. Just my 2¢ :) -- Jason Pruim Raoset Inc. Technology Manager MQC Specialist 11287 James St Holland, MI 49424 www.raoset.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** == Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.typingthevoid.com http://twitter.com/wheelyweb *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** == Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.typingthevoid.com http://twitter.com/wheelyweb *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what
On Wednesday 13 August 2008 21:23:23 Krystian - Sunlust wrote: Could some of you guys trim the messages? It's really hard to read when you top post above useless tones of wording. Regards, Hi all This thread has gone off topic for the list, if you want to continue to discuss it, please do so off list or maybe take it up on a generic forum, like Sitepoint or similar. Of course, if you want to discuss ecomm apps in a web standards context (compliance, best practice, vendor support, extending etc) then please go ahead but discussing development rates, installation and problems with various software is off-topic. Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm If you have a question about this, email [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thanks James -- admin cc: core *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what
Okay, I'll try to bring it back OnTopic. Which of shopping cards actually uses css based templates without tones of tables? And if noone will mind, which CMS does so? I mean,I'm using Joomla and everyone says that the templates are standard compliant etc, but when I see the bloody header named contentheader instead of h2 it really pisses me off - not semantic and not SEO friendly. What's your best practice for Shopping Carts templates/systems, would you rather restyle a template to make it more standard compliant or start from a scratch, and same with coding, do you sometimes try to fix shopping cart software to customize it or do you not as it makes it hard to update later on? Regards, -- Krystian - Sunlust - I-M-A: Freelancer on the side: http://sunlust.net Full time Website Designer: http://smesolutions.co.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what
Good points Krystian I've make standards compliant templates in ZenCart but it was a very hard slog and involved minimising a lot of the functions and layout options, not ideal. Also, you rightly address semantic mark-up as vital which few cart options get right. If I'm in the dvd section, the h1 should reflect that as different than when I am looking at Shop DVDs Star Wars, where Star wars should be the h1. I find most generic shopping carts are good for selling books and dvds but very difficult for the client to understand when they have less than simple products. ZenCart for example does not let you easily stock control t-shirts across different size/colour/variations easily. So the gauntlet has been thrown. A simple, customisable shopping cart, that is at least _somewhat_ standards compliant, uses CSS (with tables only for tabular data, not layout) and allows one or more template with a usable template engine (allowing the developer to force standards compliance by generating their own templates.) Anyone? Joe On Aug 13, 2008, at 14:00, Krystian - Sunlust wrote: Okay, I'll try to bring it back OnTopic. Which of shopping cards actually uses css based templates without tones of tables? And if noone will mind, which CMS does so? I mean,I'm using Joomla and everyone says that the templates are standard compliant etc, but when I see the bloody header named contentheader instead of h2 it really pisses me off - not semantic and not SEO friendly. What's your best practice for Shopping Carts templates/systems, would you rather restyle a template to make it more standard compliant or start from a scratch, and same with coding, do you sometimes try to fix shopping cart software to customize it or do you not as it makes it hard to update later on? Regards, -- Krystian - Sunlust - I-M-A: Freelancer on the side: http://sunlust.net Full time Website Designer: http://smesolutions.co.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** == Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.typingthevoid.com http://twitter.com/wheelyweb *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what
Hi Krystian, Again i would recommend drupal for cms - standards compliant SEO friendly as standard. And then the ubercart ecommerce module for drupal - standards compliant as standard too :) Thats exactly the reason why we have started to use it. Would have used cubecart as v4 is tableless but I think you have to pay for it now. Drupal is free and there are loads of templates available for it already. It uses multiple templating engines and is very well documented on their website (unlike other similar systems). You can over-ride anything on there through the template system which may require a bit of php knowledge. But if you want to keep it simple then you can just modify the CSS and still create a pretty unique looking site. You create a theme folder and then assign it through the admin panel. All the core files are seperate so updating will not overwrite your customisations. Check it out here - www.drupal.org Darren Lovelock Munky Online http://www.munkyonline.co.uk Quoting Krystian - Sunlust [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Okay, I'll try to bring it back OnTopic. Which of shopping cards actually uses css based templates without tones of tables? And if noone will mind, which CMS does so? I mean,I'm using Joomla and everyone says that the templates are standard compliant etc, but when I see the bloody header named contentheader instead of h2 it really pisses me off - not semantic and not SEO friendly. What's your best practice for Shopping Carts templates/systems, would you rather restyle a template to make it more standard compliant or start from a scratch, and same with coding, do you sometimes try to fix shopping cart software to customize it or do you not as it makes it hard to update later on? Regards, -- Krystian - Sunlust - I-M-A: Freelancer on the side: http://sunlust.net Full time Website Designer: http://smesolutions.co.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what
I use and teach PlainCart for our Electronic Commerce subjects. Visit http://www.plaincart.info for details. brgds, Bob Reyes http://bobreyes.com On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 1:34 PM, Lynette Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: Have always avoided doing sites that needed a shopping cart but a new client will need one. I would appreciate some advice. Do the free ones (such as ZenCart and OsCommerce) do an adequate job or would I be better off advising my client to go for a paid one. I have a colleague who does custom-designed ones and I would be looking at about a minimum of $500. The second question is who does what? Once I have the cart (either a downloaded free one or a custom one) and it is uploaded to the website, who inputs the products etc? I imagine the client would need to be shown how to do this? What is the usual procedure? Thanks. Lyn Smith www.westernwebdesign.com.au Affordable web design - Perth, Western Australia *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Get Affordable Webhosting Domain Name at http://www.turfsiteph.net (+63) 0916.320.1513 | (+63) 557.2638 Affordable Pinoy Webhosting! TurfSite Computing, Inc. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what
If anyone was bored, it would be cool to post a shopping cart name and then a link to an example shop actually made by someone from this group/a friend, so that we know that real people make those shops (not huge companies with big $$$). I'll post my shop made in Joomla 1.5 with Virtuemart (I'm still quite a newbie so don't be harsh) http://www.audiotrak.co.uk -- Krystian - Sunlust - I-M-A: Freelancer on the side: http://sunlust.net Full time Website Designer: http://smesolutions.co.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: Can I widen the question? Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what
I second this wholeheartedly. It would be great use the collective knowledge of this group to build a list of 3rd party software vendors for common solutions (e-commerce, CMS, forums, search, etc.) that are written using, or designed to easily support, web standards. I would look to such a list as a first option when looking for off-the-shelf solutions. Maybe such a list already exists - does anyone know? Thanks! Chris Block Ian Chamberlain [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 08/13/2008 10:28 AM Please respond to wsg@webstandardsgroup.org To wsg@webstandardsgroup.org cc Subject Can I widen the question? Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what Talking about this or that shopping cart may be a long way off topic for this place; but the underlying question is so similar to one a raised a few weeks ago (re PHP libraries) I will step in again. Our focus here should be web standards; the problem is that sometimes the tools or systems we use may make it difficult to live the dream and all too often spacer gifs, font tags and layout tables leap in to view because of this or that poor template which allows such nastiness to clutter our clean pages. The purist in me tends to avoid such tools and software; but the pragmatist; you know, the one who has to earn a living sometimes needs to learn who to make these tools to the web standards thing. It would be really nice it such software came with a sticker, either; [1]Not standards based, loves tables too much - Avoid [2]Can be standards based but needs work - May be painful [3]Creates standard code out of the box. - Rare and hard to find. If anybody is likely to collect a list of tools and software that can (or can be made to) deliver standards based content, it should be us; any idea how we could list and share? just a thought Ian *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** __ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: Can I widen the question? Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what
If anybody is likely to collect a list of tools and software that can (or can be made to) deliver standards based content, it should be us; any idea how we could list and share? I would suggest using the forum. Someone created a thread there about this topic already: http://forum.webstandardsgroup.org/discussion/25/standardsaccessibilty-frien dly-shopping-cart-/ Best regards, Kepler Gelotte Neighbor Webmaster, Inc. 156 Normandy Dr., Piscataway, NJ 08854 www.neighborwebmaster.com phone/fax: (732) 302-0904 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***BEGIN:VCARD VERSION:2.1 N:Gelotte;Kepler;;Mr. FN:Kepler Gelotte ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) ORG:Neighbor Webmaster TITLE:Web Designer TEL;WORK;VOICE:(732) 302-0904 TEL;WORK;FAX:(732) 302-0904 ADR;WORK:;;156 Normandy Dr;Piscataway;NJ;08854;United States of America LABEL;WORK;ENCODING=QUOTED-PRINTABLE:156 Normandy Dr=0D=0APiscataway, NJ 08854=0D=0AUnited States of America URL;WORK:http://www.neighborwebmaster.com EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:[EMAIL PROTECTED] REV:20070415T052107Z END:VCARD
Re: Can I widen the question? Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what
I shortened the URL for you. That discussion was 2006 so I hope there are more on offer now as opposed to then... http://is.gd/1q4a Joe On Aug 13, 2008, at 17:07, Kepler Gelotte wrote: If anybody is likely to collect a list of tools and software that can (or can be made to) deliver standards based content, it should be us; any idea how we could list and share? I would suggest using the forum. Someone created a thread there about this topic already: http://forum.webstandardsgroup.org/discussion/25/standardsaccessibilty-frien dly-shopping-cart-/ Best regards, Kepler Gelotte Neighbor Webmaster, Inc. 156 Normandy Dr., Piscataway, NJ 08854 www.neighborwebmaster.com phone/fax: (732) 302-0904 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Kepler Gelotte ([EMAIL PROTECTED]).vcf == Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.typingthevoid.com http://twitter.com/wheelyweb *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: Can I widen the question? Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what
From: Joseph Ortenzi wrote: I shortened the URL for you. That discussion was 2006 so I hope there are more on offer now as opposed to then... http://is.gd/1q4a Joe I would suggest using the forum. Someone created a thread there about this topic already: http://forum.webstandardsgroup.org/discussion/25/standardsaccessibilty-frien dly-shopping-cart-/ How does the url go from one domain to another? http://forum.webstandardsgroup.org/discussion/25/standardsaccessibilty-friendly-shopping-cart-/ Much less being unreadable as to content bruce bkdesign solutions *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: Can I widen the question? Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what
Looks like the forums require a separate application to use? Bruce bkdesign - Original Message - From: Joseph Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 12:31 PM Subject: Re: Can I widen the question? Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what I shortened the URL for you. That discussion was 2006 so I hope there are more on offer now as opposed to then... http://is.gd/1q4a Joe On Aug 13, 2008, at 17:07, Kepler Gelotte wrote: If anybody is likely to collect a list of tools and software that can (or can be made to) deliver standards based content, it should be us; any idea how we could list and share? I would suggest using the forum. Someone created a thread there about this topic already: http://forum.webstandardsgroup.org/discussion/25/standardsaccessibilty-frien dly-shopping-cart-/ Best regards, Kepler Gelotte Neighbor Webmaster, Inc. 156 Normandy Dr., Piscataway, NJ 08854 www.neighborwebmaster.com phone/fax: (732) 302-0904 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Kepler Gelotte ([EMAIL PROTECTED]).vcf == Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.typingthevoid.com http://twitter.com/wheelyweb *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: Can I widen the question? Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what
surely you've heard of tinyURL? On Aug 13, 2008, at 17:51, Bruce wrote: From: Joseph Ortenzi wrote: I shortened the URL for you. That discussion was 2006 so I hope there are more on offer now as opposed to then... http://is.gd/1q4a Joe I would suggest using the forum. Someone created a thread there about this topic already: http://forum.webstandardsgroup.org/discussion/25/standardsaccessibilty-frien dly-shopping-cart-/ How does the url go from one domain to another? http://forum.webstandardsgroup.org/discussion/25/standardsaccessibilty-friendly-shopping-cart-/ Much less being unreadable as to content bruce bkdesign solutions *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** == Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.typingthevoid.com http://twitter.com/wheelyweb *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: Can I widen the question? Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what
I will be looking for web standard group members to try my cms / ecommerce custom solution. Please email me off the list ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) if you are interested. If you could also tell me your background in regards to developing / designing web apps. Cheers. Adam P.S mine is one of those rare out-of-the-box standards system. - Original Message - From: Ian Chamberlain [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2008 1:28 AM Subject: Can I widen the question? Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what Talking about this or that shopping cart may be a long way off topic for this place; but the underlying question is so similar to one a raised a few weeks ago (re PHP libraries) I will step in again. Our focus here should be web standards; the problem is that sometimes the tools or systems we use may make it difficult to live the dream and all too often spacer gifs, font tags and layout tables leap in to view because of this or that poor template which allows such nastiness to clutter our clean pages. The purist in me tends to avoid such tools and software; but the pragmatist; you know, the one who has to earn a living sometimes needs to learn who to make these tools to the web standards thing. It would be really nice it such software came with a sticker, either; [1]Not standards based, loves tables too much - Avoid [2]Can be standards based but needs work - May be painful [3]Creates standard code out of the box. - Rare and hard to find. If anybody is likely to collect a list of tools and software that can (or can be made to) deliver standards based content, it should be us; any idea how we could list and share? just a thought Ian *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what
On Aug 13, 2008, at 12:00 AM, 8bits Media wrote: I think it would be worth your while to go and check out Magento - http://www.magentocommerce.com/ The makers of this product have done a great job of making it standards compliant, as well as very usable. We're in the process of integrating it into a new project. I'd been learning Magento since beta 1, guess I will add my 2 cents. Magento is very impressive, and you can make your magento store as compliant as it can be with its very flexible, a-bit-daunting template system. But to say magento is standards compliant is totally off-key in my opinion. The first template they came out, was very impressive for an open source, now, with each releases, many files got updated and you see inline styles, excessive use of div classes. I don't think Varien continues promoting Magento as Standards Compliant anymore. Still, I applause the work. With the browsers' short-comings, and the fact that we still have to support IE6, I think it's not easy to make a semantically sound and structurally clean template that is used by many store owners who have no knowledge of CSS and HTML (clearly this wasn't the intention from the developer). Taking this into consideration, I think perhaps the excessive use of div classes is the way to go to support majority of users. Alas! Example of its template div class=category div class=head h2heading 2/h2 /div div class=pager div class=toolbar ul lilist/li /ul /div div class=listing table/table /div /div When you look at its iestyle.css, very clean, not many hacking for ie6. I think the use of wrapping each block in a div set helps a lot. A theme I was working: http://tinyurl.com/6xdecp tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what
On Aug 13, 2008, at 7:00 PM, tee wrote: I'd been learning Magento since beta 1, guess I will add my 2 cents. Magento is very impressive, and you can make your magento store as compliant as it can be with its very flexible, a-bit-daunting template system. But to say magento is standards compliant is totally off-key in my opinion. The first template they came out, was very impressive for an open source, now, with each releases, many files got updated and you see inline styles, excessive use of div classes. I don't think Varien continues promoting Magento as Standards Compliant anymore. Also, forgot to add, accessible wise, it think it gets a minus point. Turn the js off, many things are gone, so far the fatal accessible issue I see is the category nav. In my theme, I try doing fly-out and I haven't been able to get the tabbing works in second level. tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
