RE: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ?
Sounds like a job for the likes of Visio, or Illustrator. Since you don't appear to need anything functional, I would avoid the complexities of NVU or Dreamweaver. You would need to spend five minutes providing the basic shapes, but then it is all down to the user. Mike -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nick Roper Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 2:15 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ? Apologies if this is slightly off topic, but I'm happy to re-post elsewhere. A client wants to be able to create some draft page layouts that they want achieved. Basically, they want a simple piece of software that they can use to drag drop things like buttons, lists, input fields etc onto a page in order to create an initial draft requirement. No functionality is needed - just the ability to create a draft layout and annotate things. For example there might be an arrow pointing to a button with a note that says 'the user clicks this to display a list of products' They can then submit it to us as a starting point. I hesitate to suggest anything like Dreamweaver. Does anyone know of anything fairly lightweight and foolproof? Thanks, Nick -- Nick Roper partner logical elements *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ?
A pen and a yellow legal pad. Lightweight, portable, can be used on the airplane, available anywhere for under $5, available in a wide array of colors, understood by everyone, supports annotations of all kinds, and is the same sophisticated tool used by 99% of web designers world wide for making initial concept sketches. -Original Message- From: Nick Roper Subject: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ? I hesitate to suggest anything like Dreamweaver. Does anyone know of anything fairly lightweight and foolproof? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ?
Try Axure ( http://www.axure.com/) On 3/12/07 9:15 AM, Nick Roper [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Apologies if this is slightly off topic, but I'm happy to re-post elsewhere. A client wants to be able to create some draft page layouts that they want achieved. Basically, they want a simple piece of software that they can use to drag drop things like buttons, lists, input fields etc onto a page in order to create an initial draft requirement. No functionality is needed - just the ability to create a draft layout and annotate things. For example there might be an arrow pointing to a button with a note that says 'the user clicks this to display a list of products' They can then submit it to us as a starting point. I hesitate to suggest anything like Dreamweaver. Does anyone know of anything fairly lightweight and foolproof? Thanks, Nick *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ?
If you use a Mac, OmniGraffle is a good tool for this purpose. http://www.omnigroup.com/applications/omnigraffle/ On 3/12/07 9:15 AM, Nick Roper [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Apologies if this is slightly off topic, but I'm happy to re-post elsewhere. A client wants to be able to create some draft page layouts that they want achieved. Basically, they want a simple piece of software that they can use to drag drop things like buttons, lists, input fields etc onto a page in order to create an initial draft requirement. No functionality is needed - just the ability to create a draft layout and annotate things. For example there might be an arrow pointing to a button with a note that says 'the user clicks this to display a list of products' They can then submit it to us as a starting point. I hesitate to suggest anything like Dreamweaver. Does anyone know of anything fairly lightweight and foolproof? Thanks, Nick *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ?
Chris Williams wrote: A pen and a yellow legal pad. hehe, or how about MS Paint? poor thing barely gets a look-in these days. I think most of the comps I receive are done in word... Just find something they know how to use already, save faffing around with any software training and the speight of support calls it leads to. -Original Message- From: Nick Roper Subject: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ? I hesitate to suggest anything like Dreamweaver. Does anyone know of anything fairly lightweight and foolproof? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ?
Subject: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ? Apologies if this is slightly off topic, but I'm happy to re-post elsewhere. A client wants to be able to create some draft page layouts that they want achieved. Basically, they want a simple piece of software that they can use to drag drop things like buttons, lists, input fields etc onto a page in order to create an initial draft requirement. No functionality is needed - just the ability to create a draft layout and annotate things. For example there might be an arrow pointing to a button with a note that says 'the user clicks this to display a list of products' They can then submit it to us as a starting point. There's a prototyping tool called Denim (http://dub.washington.edu/denim/) which may be what you're looking for. It works best with a digital tablet and is designed for sketching a web interface. It will require 15-20 minutes of demonstration for your client to learn. That said, Chris's recommendation of a pen and legal pad is probably the best way to go. -Tim -- * Tim Offenstein - Web Specialist - CITES - AHS - 244-2700 * A cheerful heart is a good medicine Proverbs 17:22 NRSV *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ?
OneNote 2007 is pretty cool. It's sort of fits in with the legal pad suggestion (smile), except it's electronic, and is closer to a spiral notebook than a legal pad. Comes with a few ruled templates as well, and you can use a stylus! ByteDreams -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nick Roper Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 10:15 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ? Apologies if this is slightly off topic, but I'm happy to re-post elsewhere. A client wants to be able to create some draft page layouts that they want achieved. Basically, they want a simple piece of software that they can use to drag drop things like buttons, lists, input fields etc onto a page in order to create an initial draft requirement. No functionality is needed - just the ability to create a draft layout and annotate things. For example there might be an arrow pointing to a button with a note that says 'the user clicks this to display a list of products' They can then submit it to us as a starting point. I hesitate to suggest anything like Dreamweaver. Does anyone know of anything fairly lightweight and foolproof? Thanks, Nick -- Nick Roper partner logical elements *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ?
I'd like to apologize for being snarky with my first reply. That's what I get for replying before the first cup of coffee. It's just that, in my experience, the time spent spec'ing and teaching people to use spec'ing tools is better spent with a rough cut alpha/beta running and people giving live feedback as they play with it. I prefer to just start with *something/anything* [hat tip to Tod Rundgren] and work from there. But clearly it's your client, and you have to work they way they want to work. Chris -Original Message- From: Nick Roper Subject: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ? Does anyone know of anything fairly lightweight and foolproof? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ?
On 3/12/07, Chris Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But clearly it's your client, and you have to work they way they want to work. this is not completely true. if you are an employee, then yes, but if it is a client, not always the case. they hired you to do a job and it is your responsibilty to do the job. sounds like to me they want to get involved on a nuts and bolts level and that could eventually cause problems. i agree with an early poster about the pencil and paper layout tool. this is what i use with my clients. once they argee to a layout, i start posting test pages for them to look at. most web design pros use paper and pencil, felt tip markers, crayons or whatever to sketch the design and hierarchy of the site to begin with. as the project develops and changes are made, then the draft can be revised. i don't think there is any simple tool for a client to use to do your job without you spending time and effort to teach them how to use it, that could cost you your job and what do you have? another non-compliant web site. is this what you want? maybe it would happen and maybe it wouldn't. if you are the pro, you will discourage them from getting into your arena of expertise. would they let you into theirs? i doubt it. i digress. make it easy on yourself and explain there is no simple tool for them to use without a large learning curve. did you learn html and css overnight? reassure them that you are there to make visual their ideas. that you will do to the best of your ability to provide them with a functional, w3c-recommendations-compliant web site that is true to their ideas. you encourage their input, but not their code. again, i find live test pages for the client to see works wonders. or you could continue to search for a simple to use, fairly lightweight and foolproof page layout tool when you should be talking with your client and making web pages. dwain From: Nick Roper Subject: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ? Does anyone know of anything fairly lightweight and foolproof? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- dwain alford p.o. box 145 winfield, alabama 35594 u.s.a. tele: 205.487.2570 cell: 205.495.5619 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ?
I *was* the early poster... From: Dwain Alford Subject: Re: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ? i agree with an early poster about the pencil and paper layout tool. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ?
then i agree with your earlier post. i did not find it snarky. it was true what you said. dwain On 3/12/07, Chris Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I **was** the early poster… -- *From:* Dwain Alford *Subject:* Re: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ? i agree with an early poster about the pencil and paper layout tool. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- dwain alford p.o. box 145 winfield, alabama 35594 u.s.a. tele: 205.487.2570 cell: 205.495.5619 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ?
Many thanks to all for the suggestions, I'll check them out. Actually my preference would probably be the pen and paper approach as well, but the client insists that they want a *proper* tool for the job. Thanks again folks. Nick Dwain Alford wrote: then i agree with your earlier post. i did not find it snarky. it was true what you said. dwain On 3/12/07, *Chris Williams* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I **was** the early poster… *From:* Dwain Alford *Subject:* Re: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ? i agree with an early poster about the pencil and paper layout tool. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- dwain alford p.o. box 145 winfield, alabama 35594 u.s.a. tele: 205.487.2570 cell: 205.495.5619 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Nick Roper partner logical elements *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ?
Nick Roper wrote: Many thanks to all for the suggestions, I'll check them out. Actually my preference would probably be the pen and paper approach as well, but the client insists that they want a *proper* tool for the job. In that case point 'em at iRise http://irise.com/products/diagram.php where they'll be able to purchase ~US$250K worth of proper if it makes 'em feel better. At the least it'll provide an interesting point for discussion of the cost-effectiveness of various solutions :-) (The pad and pencil was my first suggestion as well, followed by Denim, FWIW.) Good luck! -- Hassan Schroeder - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Webtuitive Design === (+1) 408-938-0567 === http://webtuitive.com opinion: webtuitive.blogspot.com dream. code. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ?
NR A client wants to be able to create some draft page layouts that they NR want achieved. Basically, they want a simple piece of software that they NR can use to drag drop things like buttons, lists, input fields etc onto NR a page in order to create an initial draft requirement. No functionality NR is needed - just the ability to create a draft layout and annotate NR things. For example there might be an arrow pointing to a button with a NR note that says 'the user clicks this to display a list of products' At my company, the business groups often use Visio to produce the wireframes that the design groups then work toward. They also use Powerpoint to produce light specs. I can't say I am fond of these tools from a web development perspective, but they do allow those not familiar with the web to quickly produce wireframes that can be easily manipulated and toyed with. There is the added benefit that many business folks are already familiar with these programs. -- Sam mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ?
I second the Axure recommendation. While it is nearly twice the cost of Visio, it is much easier to use, far more flexible, and actually designed for prototyping websites. Tim McLaughlin, Gail G wrote: Try Axure ( http://www.axure.com/) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ?
At my company, the business groups often use Visio to produce the wireframes that the design groups then work toward. They also use Powerpoint to produce light specs. I can't say I am fond of these tools from a web development perspective, but they do allow those not familiar with the web to quickly produce wireframes that can be easily manipulated and toyed with. There is the added benefit that many business folks are already familiar with these programs. I've never seen any such tools used for this... maybe that happens only in the rarified atmopshere of large corporations or government departments... ...wirefames? ... only ever seen that in animation programs... ...maybe someone's been watching too many movies? ...doesn't sound at all like the real world Never even seen Visio.. and don't have a clue what it actually does. Just did a Google search on it and ended up at a page about Microsoft Office... I guess this is something new they just released . .. but I can't quickly figure out from that page what it actually does! ...but if there is any tool in existance that could help a non-technical person describe to me what they want more clearly I'd like to know about it! (but if the language it uses is business-speak then I'm still going to have trouble understanding it :-) It would be nice to have something better to go on than what we usually get in the real world eg a photoshop image and being told to do something like that (I'm a developer not a visual designer - I need some idea what they want it to do!) or (the most common scenario) ... a very vague verbal description from someone who isn't actually sure of what they want! .. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: ~~~SPAM~~~ Re: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ?
I can assure you that wire frames for layouts are used in nearly every design studio that I've worked in. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael MD Sent: Wednesday, 14 March 2007 10:28 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: ~~~SPAM~~~ Re: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ? At my company, the business groups often use Visio to produce the wireframes that the design groups then work toward. They also use Powerpoint to produce light specs. I can't say I am fond of these tools from a web development perspective, but they do allow those not familiar with the web to quickly produce wireframes that can be easily manipulated and toyed with. There is the added benefit that many business folks are already familiar with these programs. I've never seen any such tools used for this... maybe that happens only in the rarified atmopshere of large corporations or government departments... ...wirefames? ... only ever seen that in animation programs... ...maybe someone's been watching too many movies? ...doesn't sound at all like the real world Never even seen Visio.. and don't have a clue what it actually does. Just did a Google search on it and ended up at a page about Microsoft Office... I guess this is something new they just released . .. but I can't quickly figure out from that page what it actually does! ...but if there is any tool in existance that could help a non-technical person describe to me what they want more clearly I'd like to know about it! (but if the language it uses is business-speak then I'm still going to have trouble understanding it :-) It would be nice to have something better to go on than what we usually get in the real world eg a photoshop image and being told to do something like that (I'm a developer not a visual designer - I need some idea what they want it to do!) or (the most common scenario) ... a very vague verbal description from someone who isn't actually sure of what they want! .. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
