Re: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility

2005-04-18 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
InfoForce Services (Angus MacKinnon) wrote:
This brings up a question. How effective are Skip navigation links? I
 have heard that half the people do not understand what skip 
navigation links are. I design web sites to get to the main content 
or with very few links until the main content.
I'm in line with your approach. Main content should ideally come first
on a web page, although that's not always easy to perfect.
When asking my sight-impaired / blind friends in Norway about such
things, they tend to say: Don't fix everything for us. We know how to
get around, and prefer our own solutions. 'Content first' helps, but
that's about it. Cut out the noise and remove all barriers.
My own very unscientific research says that 4 out of 10 do not
understand internal links in a web page, so they just tab past them.
Skip Nav comes in that category, and no international standards and
sketchy implementation doesn't help much here.
Some standards incorporated as link-relations handled by the browsers
are needed, or else all well-intended use of skip links in web pages
becomes just some more smart but not very useful noise.
Myself: My eyes are not young anymore, so I blow up all the tiny text
around - often using Opera's Zoom. Skip Links are rarely needed, and
they tend to become part of the noise.
Some of the latest pop up when hovered *Skip Nav* links are disturbing
to the point that I tend to skip those sites altogether.
An alternative that works well is to enter such helpful sites in
Opera's SSR-mode, and blow them up 400%. That works really well since so
few sites are styled for handheld yet. Besides, I can just dump their
CSS anyway and apply my own.
No Skip Anything that can be avoided, is my approach. Look one more
time at the design-method instead.
regards
Georg
--
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Re: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility

2005-04-17 Thread heretic
 Oh Damn, I guess I will have to make it visible again. I have only tested
 it on FF, IE6 and IE5.

FYI, on the first tab Opera 8 beta 3 jumps to the name input at the bottom.

h

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RE: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility - Site Map Link

2005-04-16 Thread Mike Pepper
I've mentioned this before, but at an awards bash I attended the (blind)
compere mentioned above and beyond all considerations of accessibility is
the inclusion of a link to the site map page. Many AT (assistive technology)
users have a devil of a job deciphering site content relevance, especially
when arriving new to a site from a search engine. A (well designed) site map
helps enormously.

Cheers,

Mike

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of russ - maxdesign
 Sent: 15 April 2005 00:55
 To: Web Standards Group
 Subject: Re: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility


 Richard, these are all good questions. The best thing to do as actually
 observe real people (with disabilities) interacting with sites.

 I have watched blind users and users with severe vision impairment who
 become frustrated and leave sites very quickly. They are more likely to
 struggle on if the information is very important or only available at one
 particular site.

 When David Woodbridge's was demonstrating a poorly built site to the WSG
 last year he commented:
 I am doing this to demonstrate the problems. In real life I would never
 really go this far into a site this bad, I would have left on the fist
 page.

 Think of it in other terms. If there was a shop with major
 physical barriers
 (like being forced to climb a ladder just to get into the shop), and the
 shop keeper was never available, would you hang around long?
 Compare that to
 a shop nearby with easy access and friendly staff.

 Russ


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Re: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility - Site Map Link

2005-04-16 Thread Neerav
Mike
Did he make any suggestions asto the features a well designed site map 
should have?

--
Neerav Bhatt
http://www.bhatt.id.au
Need a Sydney based web standards contractor? You need my services.
Recent projects for Glassonion, Freshweb, Cogentis, Ceneka ...
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Mike Pepper wrote:
I've mentioned this before, but at an awards bash I attended the (blind)
compere mentioned above and beyond all considerations of accessibility is
the inclusion of a link to the site map page. Many AT (assistive technology)
users have a devil of a job deciphering site content relevance, especially
when arriving new to a site from a search engine. A (well designed) site map
helps enormously.
Cheers,
Mike
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RE: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility - Site Map Link

2005-04-16 Thread Mike Pepper
Hi Neerav,

No, unfortunately not.

My own feeling is to offer sensible page summaries against each link (page)
reference. To be honest, I've not looked into this further (other than
feeling a bloody idiot that I hadn't made the site map page the first link
in the set of skip navs - but we live and, from the experiences of others,
learn ;o) ).

Even now your question prompts me wonder why on earth I haven't given a site
summary at the head of the site map page :-/ --
which I shall now correct :o)

Cheers,

Mike

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Neerav
 Sent: 16 April 2005 14:10
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Subject: Re: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility - Site Map Link


 Mike

 Did he make any suggestions asto the features a well designed site map
 should have?

 --
 Neerav Bhatt
 http://www.bhatt.id.au

 Need a Sydney based web standards contractor? You need my services.
 Recent projects for Glassonion, Freshweb, Cogentis, Ceneka ...

 http://www.bhatt.id.au/blog/ - Ramblings Thoughts
 http://bookcrossing.com/referral/neerav

 Mike Pepper wrote:
  I've mentioned this before, but at an awards bash I attended the (blind)
  compere mentioned above and beyond all considerations of
 accessibility is
  the inclusion of a link to the site map page. Many AT
 (assistive technology)
  users have a devil of a job deciphering site content relevance,
 especially
  when arriving new to a site from a search engine. A (well
 designed) site map
  helps enormously.
 
  Cheers,
 
  Mike
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Re: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility

2005-04-15 Thread Jan Brasna
For a compromise http://www.lionsq3.asn.au the tab key reveals the skip 
links.
Dave Shea has it on Mezzoblue too, great feature...)
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RE: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility

2005-04-15 Thread Patrick Lauke
 Jan Brasna

  For a compromise http://www.lionsq3.asn.au the tab key 
 reveals the skip 
  links.
 
 Dave Shea has it on Mezzoblue too, great feature...)

But I have to say, on that Lions site, it's disingenious to
have the skip appear on the far right. Users with low vision may
only see a small fraction of the actual page (if they use screen
magnifiers or just have their resolution set really low). Traditionally
they'll start to read top-left. Now, first TAB, and if they only see
a screen section equivalent to the width of the logo, say, they may
completely miss the this feature.

But it's certainly better than not providing anything at all.

Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk
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Re: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility

2005-04-14 Thread Ben Hamilton
Sarah Peeke (XERT) wrote:
Hi Rob
 

For a compromise http://www.lionsq3.asn.au the tab key reveals the skip 
links.
   

Very nice. I also like what Molly has done http://www.molly.com/
Use the tab key - 2nd tab
--
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mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility

2005-04-14 Thread Sarah Peeke (XERT)
OK, I have now enabled full keyboard access (system preferences), but when I 
use the tab key in both
sites listed below nothing happens. It is only when I hover over the area where 
the navigation
should appear that each link appears.

 For a compromise http://www.lionsq3.asn.au the tab key reveals the skip 
 links.

 Very nice. I also like what Molly has done http://www.molly.com/
 Use the tab key - 2nd tab

Can anyone suggest what may be wrong with my set up as I imagine this is *not* 
what is meant to
happen. The user would have to guess where these links are using the method I 
currently need to use!

Sarah
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Re: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility

2005-04-14 Thread Susanne Jaeger
Lea de Groot wrote, On 14.04.2005 04:50:

 I've seen a couple of sites with a very nice tab interface whereby the 
 'skip' link became visible on the first tab, but was hidden if that 
 didnt happen.

I like the idea and used it myself in a recent procject, but I've never
been able to get Opera cooperating.
a:focus works in other browser but Opera seems not to use these styles
when keyboard activated via a or q. Does anyone know more about this
issue?

Susanne

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D-10119 Berlin
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Re: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility

2005-04-14 Thread Philippe Wittenbergh
On 14 Apr 2005, at 7:22 pm, Susanne Jaeger wrote:
I like the idea and used it myself in a recent procject, but I've never
been able to get Opera cooperating.
a:focus works in other browser but Opera seems not to use these styles
when keyboard activated via a or q. Does anyone know more about 
this
issue?
a:focus is simply not implemented in Opera. It uses its own scheme, but 
doesn't listen to the css :focus. It only works partly on form 
elements, I think.

Philippe
---/---
Philippe Wittenbergh
now live : http://emps.l-c-n.com/
code | design | web projects : http://www.l-c-n.com/
IE5 Mac bugs and oddities : http://www.l-c-n.com/IE5tests/
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RE: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility

2005-04-14 Thread Jonathan Bloy
On Wednesday, April 13, 2005 9:50pm, Lea de Groot wrote:
I've seen a couple of sites with a very nice tab interface
whereby the 'skip' link became visible on the first tab,
but was hidden if that didnt happen. I think Mike Pepper
does it at http://www.seowebsitepromotion.com/

That's the method I use too.  I like to make sure the skip link is very
visible (once the tab key is hit).  Here's an example from one of my
recent sites.  http://www.cudahyfamilylibrary.org/



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Re: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility

2005-04-14 Thread Patrick H. Lauke
Sarah Peeke (XERT) wrote:
OK, I have now enabled full keyboard access (system preferences), but when I 
use the tab key in both
sites listed below nothing happens. It is only when I hover over the area where 
the navigation
should appear that each link appears.
I'm guessing it may be this:
You need to change a setting in Safari for that. Go to preferences, 
then in the advanced tab change do not highlight links as you press the 
Tab key to Highlight links as you press the Tab key

from 
http://www.access-matters.com/2005/04/07/quiz-242-now-you-see-me-now-you-dont/#comment-156

--
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_
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RE: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility

2005-04-14 Thread Ben Wrighton
One small thing that bothers me with the tab to make skip nav visible
approach.

What if a physically disabled site visitor loads the page, doesn't see the
[skip nav], thinks bugger this and leaves before tabbing? Especially if
the site's home page does not contain an accessibility statement.

I'd like to know what a web savvy physically disabled person thinks about
this technique (which other that this small concern I really like).

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Re: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility

2005-04-14 Thread Patrick H. Lauke
Ben Wrighton wrote:
What if a physically disabled site visitor loads the page, doesn't see the
[skip nav], thinks bugger this and leaves before tabbing? Especially if
the site's home page does not contain an accessibility statement.
That would probably depend on why they came to the site in the first 
place. Also, as most mainstream sites don't actually have anything like 
skip links, I fear they'd say bugger it quite often when going online...

--
Patrick H. Lauke
_
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
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Re: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility

2005-04-14 Thread Richard Czeiger
Are users really *that* impatient? Does the physically disabled site user
not even bother to see if the content on the page is worth-while? As a
developer who believes in validation, would you not bother looking at a page
if you you didn't see a little xhtml link at the bottom?

Should we bother to build site for people who don't bother to use them?

Just a thought...

And a reminder that we're after best practice within the contrainsts
provided by the project and the technology, not a rigid, total and utter
compliancy to every living mammal on the planet.

R

- Original Message -
From: Ben Wrighton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Friday, April 15, 2005 9:03 AM
Subject: RE: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility


One small thing that bothers me with the tab to make skip nav visible
approach.

What if a physically disabled site visitor loads the page, doesn't see the
[skip nav], thinks bugger this and leaves before tabbing? Especially if
the site's home page does not contain an accessibility statement.

I'd like to know what a web savvy physically disabled person thinks about
this technique (which other that this small concern I really like).

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Re: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility

2005-04-14 Thread russ - maxdesign
Richard, these are all good questions. The best thing to do as actually
observe real people (with disabilities) interacting with sites.

I have watched blind users and users with severe vision impairment who
become frustrated and leave sites very quickly. They are more likely to
struggle on if the information is very important or only available at one
particular site.

When David Woodbridge's was demonstrating a poorly built site to the WSG
last year he commented:
I am doing this to demonstrate the problems. In real life I would never
really go this far into a site this bad, I would have left on the fist
page.

Think of it in other terms. If there was a shop with major physical barriers
(like being forced to climb a ladder just to get into the shop), and the
shop keeper was never available, would you hang around long? Compare that to
a shop nearby with easy access and friendly staff.

Russ



 Are users really *that* impatient? Does the physically disabled site user
 not even bother to see if the content on the page is worth-while? As a
 developer who believes in validation, would you not bother looking at a page
 if you you didn't see a little xhtml link at the bottom?
 
 Should we bother to build site for people who don't bother to use them?
 
 Just a thought...
 
 And a reminder that we're after best practice within the contrainsts
 provided by the project and the technology, not a rigid, total and utter
 compliancy to every living mammal on the planet.
 
 R

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Re: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility

2005-04-14 Thread Patrick H. Lauke
russ - maxdesign wrote:
I have watched blind users and users with severe vision impairment who
become frustrated and leave sites very quickly.
Even before  one or two tabs though?
--
Patrick H. Lauke
_
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[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
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Re: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility

2005-04-14 Thread Richard Czeiger
I accept the point, Russ.

However, on a practical level, the concern that Ben expressed regarding
accessibility compared to the importance of the content on the page is a
decision the users need to make all the time and one that doesn't usually
cost a lot:

Interesting content... I guess I'll push through the site even though it
obviously isn't built for me.

vs

I'm not even doing to bother looking at this site even though it might have
the answers I'm looking for.

For any web user (disabled or not) the second attitude isn't going to get
them very far. I'm hoping that if I build a site that features good
accessibility options then I will get people more people **preferring** to
use my site over others that may have similar content.

I've been following the Skip Link discussion because I find it to be a very
contentious issue. No one has seemed to come up with a 100% successful
answer that pleases everybody. My point is this: even **having** the Skip to
Content feature on the site in any form is a far sight better than not
having one. If it only works for blind users and not physically disabled
users, it's still better than sites that don't have one at all.

I dare say that there are more sites out there that don't have then than
those that do. Do visually or physically disabled people 'not bother' to
look at ALL those pages?

At the end of the day, we're still *trying* to get it right. It sometimes
feels as though we're being beaten over the head for not having everything
function perfectly for everybody - and I don't think we ever will (too many
different types of people, too diverse a range of technology).

It seems as though we should be giving a 'clap on the back' for those
developers that spend hours of their time *testing* all these ideas out with
the aim of making peoples lives better...

PS: Sorry about the soapbox - it's the end of the week and I needed to
vent...

R  :o)


- Original Message -
From: russ - maxdesign [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Web Standards Group wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Friday, April 15, 2005 9:54 AM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility


Richard, these are all good questions. The best thing to do as actually
observe real people (with disabilities) interacting with sites.

I have watched blind users and users with severe vision impairment who
become frustrated and leave sites very quickly. They are more likely to
struggle on if the information is very important or only available at one
particular site.

When David Woodbridge's was demonstrating a poorly built site to the WSG
last year he commented:
I am doing this to demonstrate the problems. In real life I would never
really go this far into a site this bad, I would have left on the fist
page.

Think of it in other terms. If there was a shop with major physical barriers
(like being forced to climb a ladder just to get into the shop), and the
shop keeper was never available, would you hang around long? Compare that to
a shop nearby with easy access and friendly staff.

Russ



 Are users really *that* impatient? Does the physically disabled site user
 not even bother to see if the content on the page is worth-while? As a
 developer who believes in validation, would you not bother looking at a
page
 if you you didn't see a little xhtml link at the bottom?

 Should we bother to build site for people who don't bother to use them?

 Just a thought...

 And a reminder that we're after best practice within the contrainsts
 provided by the project and the technology, not a rigid, total and utter
 compliancy to every living mammal on the planet.

 R

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RE: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility

2005-04-14 Thread Lea de Groot
On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 11:03:50 +1200, Ben Wrighton wrote:
 What if a physically disabled site visitor loads the page, doesn't see the
 [skip nav], thinks bugger this and leaves before tabbing? Especially if
 the site's home page does not contain an accessibility statement.

And the obvious solution would be to ensure there is a link to the 
accessability statement on the front (and indeed each) page?

It would be nice to think that, assuming the 'skip link becomes visible 
on tab' approach works, that it will become common and  users will 
become accustomed to hitting the tab key to see if they get to that 
something extra that is there just for them.

IMHO
Lea
~ looking for a permanent position in Brisbane - please contact me for 
CV
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Search Engine Optimisation, Usability, Information Architecture, Web 
Design
Brisbane, Australia
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Re: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility

2005-04-14 Thread InfoForce Services \(Angus MacKinnon\)
This brings up a question. How effective are Skip navigation links? I have 
heard that half the people do not understand what skip navigation links are. 
I design web sites to get to the main content or with very few links until 
the main content.

Angus MacKinnon
MacKinnon Crest Saying
Latin -  Audentes Fortuna Juvat
English - Fortune Assists The Daring
Web page: http://members.shaw.ca/dabneyadfm
Choroideremia Research Foundation Inc.
http://www.choroideremia.org
Advocates for Sight Impaired Consumers (ASIC)
http://www.asic.bc.cx


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RE: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility

2005-04-13 Thread Herrod, Lisa
It's also useful for users of other assistive technology devices, such as
head wands or those with limited mobility, as it reduces the number of
'tabs' a user is required to make to move further down the page.

lisa

-Original Message-
From: Sarah Peeke (XERT) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, 14 April 2005 12:12 PM
To: WSG
Subject: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility


HI all

I have just come across a css tip at
http://www.htmldog.com/guides/htmladvanced/links/ which
involves a css method to render the 'skip navigation' link invisible.

My question is: Does anyone else use this method, or another similar
technique?

Many sites I have seen *retain this link's visibility* despite it being
intended (AFAIK) primarily
for screen readers.

Thanks
Sarah
-- 
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mobile: 0438 017 416

http://www.xert.com.au/   web development : digital imaging : dvd production
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Re: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility

2005-04-13 Thread russ - maxdesign
What about users who rely on keyboards but have sight (users with some form
of motor skill or mobility deficiency)?

Visible skip menus can be very important for these users.

A visible skip link allows them to jump over content or navigation
(depending on how the site is set up) and possibly avoid having to tab
numerous times to get to the content they need. A skip link is the first tab
they will hit when they come to a site.

Russ


 HI all
 
 I have just come across a css tip at
 http://www.htmldog.com/guides/htmladvanced/links/ which
 involves a css method to render the 'skip navigation' link invisible.
 
 My question is: Does anyone else use this method, or another similar
 technique?
 
 Many sites I have seen *retain this link's visibility* despite it being
 intended (AFAIK) primarily
 for screen readers.
 
 Thanks
 Sarah

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Re: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility

2005-04-13 Thread Thierry Koblentz
Sarah Peeke (XERT) wrote:
 Many sites I have seen *retain this link's visibility* despite it
 being intended (AFAIK) primarily 
 for screen readers.

It also helps people who use tabbing navigation.

Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com |
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Re: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility

2005-04-13 Thread Rob Unsworth
On Thu, 14 Apr 2005, russ - maxdesign wrote:
What about users who rely on keyboards but have sight (users with some form
of motor skill or mobility deficiency)?
Visible skip menus can be very important for these users.
A visible skip link allows them to jump over content or navigation
(depending on how the site is set up) and possibly avoid having to tab
numerous times to get to the content they need. A skip link is the first tab
they will hit when they come to a site.
For a compromise http://www.lionsq3.asn.au the tab key reveals the skip 
links.

--
Regards,  | Lions District 201 Q3 
Rob Unsworth  | IT  Internet Chairman 
Ipswich, Australia| http://www.lionsq3.asn.au 
-

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Re: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility

2005-04-13 Thread Lea de Groot
On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 12:31:00 +1000, russ - maxdesign wrote:
 A visible skip link allows them to jump over content or navigation
 (depending on how the site is set up) and possibly avoid having to tab
 numerous times to get to the content they need. A skip link is the first tab
 they will hit when they come to a site.

I've seen a couple of sites with a very nice tab interface whereby the 
'skip' link became visible on the first tab, but was hidden if that 
didnt happen.
I think Mike Pepper does it at http://www.seowebsitepromotion.com/ (Hi, 
Mike!)

Lea
~ looking for a permanent position in Brisbane. Got anything?
-- 
Lea de Groot
Elysian Systems - I Understand the Internet http://elysiansystems.com/
Search Engine Optimisation, Usability, Information Architecture, Web 
Design
Brisbane, Australia
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Re: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility

2005-04-13 Thread Sarah Peeke (XERT)
Thank you Thierry, Lisa and Russ.

Great points - I am new to accessibility, but your replies make great sense.

Cheers
Sarah :)
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Re: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility

2005-04-13 Thread Sarah Peeke (XERT)
Hi Rob

 For a compromise http://www.lionsq3.asn.au the tab key reveals the skip 
 links.

I have tried pressing the tab key, but the skip menu does not appear. Am I 
doing something wrong
here? Am using a mac, if that makes any difference.
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Re: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility

2005-04-13 Thread Rob Unsworth
On Thu, 14 Apr 2005, Sarah Peeke (XERT) wrote:
Hi Rob
For a compromise http://www.lionsq3.asn.au the tab key reveals the skip
links.
I have tried pressing the tab key, but the skip menu does not appear. Am I 
doing something wrong
here? Am using a mac, if that makes any difference.
Oh Damn, I guess I will have to make it visible again. I have only tested 
it on FF, IE6 and IE5.

--
Regards,  | Lions District 201 Q3 
Rob Unsworth  | IT  Internet Chairman 
Ipswich, Australia| http://www.lionsq3.asn.au 
-

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Re: [WSG] Skip Navigation Visibility

2005-04-13 Thread Philippe Wittenbergh
On 14 Apr 2005, at 1:03 pm, Rob Unsworth wrote:
For a compromise http://www.lionsq3.asn.au the tab key reveals the 
skip
links.
I have tried pressing the tab key, but the skip menu does not appear. 
Am I doing something wrong
here? Am using a mac, if that makes any difference.
Oh Damn, I guess I will have to make it visible again. I have only 
tested it on FF, IE6 and IE5
That one worked fine for me, both with FF nightly and with 
Safari/OmniWeb.

Note for Safari and FF nightly/OS X, to use tabkey to navigate a page, 
You have to enable full keyboard access in the System Preferences  
KeyboardMouse.

Philippe
---/---
Philippe Wittenbergh
now live : http://emps.l-c-n.com/
code | design | web projects : http://www.l-c-n.com/
IE5 Mac bugs and oddities : http://www.l-c-n.com/IE5tests/
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