Re: [WSG] Tables, is it Standard?
> If you are using data tables, you need
> to use at least , , and and then associate the cells
> ('s) with headers ('s).
Agree. Would be good to also include summary and caption in that list :)
Russ
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RE: [WSG] Tables, is it Standard?
Title: RE: [WSG] Tables, is it Standard? There is no hard and fast rule as the whether tables are 'standards'. It is possible to build site layout using tables and still comply with the 'rules'. The question is whether or not tables should be used at all other than for displaying tabular data. My particular slant on this is that tables make mark-up meaningless when they are used to layout a page! There is virtually nothing you can't achieve with css-positioning for page layout. If this method is employed it is possible to serve content that is formatted for any viewing media (print/browser/wap/tv/toaster/alarm clock or any other web enabled device yes I know, you can't view web pages on a toaster...yet!) Why would you have to serve a separate page to each device. IMHO keep tables for data that needs to be presented in a 'tabular' form. There is nothing wrong with using tables in a standards based environment, pages will validate. But try to navigate a page built with multiple nests of tables in a browser for the visually impaired and you will see what I mean. So how can you satisfy accessibility rules if you use tables. Legislation will tighten on this, I want to be sure I'm ready for it. The other main consideration is with regard to ease of maintenance. If a web page contains specific semantically sensible s such as:- Header/banner/tagline etc go here Links go here Main page content goes here Extra information goes here Your footer details In this situation anyone maintaining your code can find their way round the page. Redesigning becomes a cinch across a site with many pages. How would you unravel a site with 10,000 pages if it were built with content nested in endless table tags? Standards based development allows you to separate the content from the design. As a side note ... this is a standard technique which echoes software development methods used in building more complex web applications where content, presentation, logic and database are all separated from each other (this is called 'n-tier') where each element can be replaced by another without the other elements being effected. An example of this could be that the database back end of an e-commerce site could be based on MySQL but a change in the corporate plan requires a migration to Microsoft SQL Server. The design shouldn't be affected here, only the database connection. If all the mark-up was in one 'spaghetti page' how long would it take to unravel the code and then reassemble? For a perfect illustration of why css-positioning wins over table based layout see the CSS ZENGARDEN (http://www.csszengarden.com/) where the same page of mark-up has been altered beyond all recognition just by changing the css and adding a few custom images. CSS already offers more than a few rectangular boxes on the page and designers like Doug Bowman, Dave Shea et al are showing the rest of us just what can be achieved. I believe there is no doubt that table based design will become a thing of the past and I hope that much of what I have said here both makes some sense and also encourages you to explore this exciting area more fully. Peter Goddard Web Developer/IT PSI Global Ltd -Original Message- From: Olajide Olaolorun [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 04 October 2004 14:56 To: Web Standards Group Subject: [WSG] Tables, is it Standard? Hi, I would like to know if Tables is standard. You see, I have been into web standards for some time now nut I still use Tables and would like to know if it is standards Thanks -- Personal: www.olajideolaolorun.com www.empirex.net Business: www.tripleolabs.com www.tripleostudios.com www.tripleo.biz Projects: www.uniformserver.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Tables, is it Standard?
Hi Olajide,
Tables are standard but like any markup, it needs to be used correctly.
Tables can be used for layout (this practice is discouraged) or for storing
tabular data. If you are using tables for layout, make sure to only use the
following tags: , , . If you are using data tables, you need
to use at least , , and and then associate the cells
('s) with headers ('s). One way to do this is by using the following
attributes and . At the following link, you
can listen to how a table may be processed by assistive technologies if it
is correctly and incorrectly marked up. Go to section "Incorrect Use Of
Tables"
http://xstandard.com/wysiwyg/
Regards,
-Vlad
XStandard Development Team
http://xstandard.com
- Original Message -
From: "Olajide Olaolorun" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Web Standards Group" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 9:55 AM
Subject: [WSG] Tables, is it Standard?
> Hi, I would like to know if Tables is standard. You see, I have been
> into web standards for some time now nut I still use Tables and would
> like to know if it is standards
>
> Thanks
>
> --
> Personal:
> www.olajideolaolorun.com
> www.empirex.net
>
> Business:
> www.tripleolabs.com
> www.tripleostudios.com
> www.tripleo.biz
>
> Projects:
> www.uniformserver.com
> **
> The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
>
> See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> **
>
>
**
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See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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Re: [WSG] Tables, is it Standard?
On Mon, 4 Oct 2004 09:55:42 -0400, Olajide Olaolorun <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi, I would like to know if Tables is standard. You see, I have been > into web standards for some time now nut I still use Tables and would > like to know if it is standards Tables are valid HTML, but in the spirit of web standards, they are discouraged for layout. Essentially, if you're marking up the kind of data that you'd find in a spreadsheet, use a table. If you're talking about laying out a page structure, you should look at using CSS positioning instead, there's a lot of advantages. The best tutorial I've found on how CSS positioning works is http://www.brainjar.com/css/positioning/ - I had it saved on my PDA and read it every morning on the train ride into work for weeks, until it really sank in. Cheers, K. -- Kay Smoljak http://kay.smoljak.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Tables, is it Standard?
Olajide Olaolorun wrote: Hi, I would like to know if Tables is standard. You see, I have been into web standards for some time now nut I still use Tables and would like to know if it is standards Thanks I think it's key to distinguish between Standards and Best Practices. Web Standards have W3C specs to back them and are mainly: (X)HTML, XHTML, CSS, ECMAscript and WAI Guidelines. Best practices include: separation of content and presentation, semantic markup and tableless layout. So, s are perfectly fit in standard valited code, but you must observe the best practice of using them only for marking up tabular data and not for layout purposes. My 0.02 cents of Euro. -- Manuel trabaja para Simplelógica: apariencia, experiencia y comunicación en la web. http://simplelogica.net # (+34) 985 22 12 65 escribe en Logicola http://simplelogica.net/logicola/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
