Re: [WSG] another 'open new window' dilemma
On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 00:13:16 -0400, tee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi accessible care takers, In light of this recent discussion, I offer this, if you haven't already read it (or already know this info): http://www.useit.com/alertbox/open_new_windows.html -- Tom Livingston Senior Multimedia Artist Media Logic www.mlinc.com Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] another 'open new window' dilemma
Janelle Clemens wrote: Thank you all for explaining the use of target=top.I will be discussing this with my manager and hopefully we will start implementing target=_blank. A late side note regarding the use of the target attribute. I believe some blockers do *not* let the browser spawn a new window if target is used to name the window. So *_blank* seems to be the only safe value here. Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] another 'open new window' dilemma
tee wrote: Hi accessible care takers, I know open new window even for external site is no good and have put it in practise for most sites I have done, however I am kind of stuck on a site that has over 100 links to external sites. My client, understands no accessible issues however she was willing to take many of my suggestions, except the NO 'open new window' to external sites. Her argument is valid and justifiable, that she is afraid her audience ... I hope you've remembered to use all the following supports for your position (including the context): http://diveintoaccessibility.org/day_16_not_opening_new_windows.html (the wrong thing to do) http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20041206.html (users will hate the site) http://www.useit.com/alertbox/9605.html (the basics of the problem) http://www.useit.com/alertbox/990530.html (the basics revisited) http://www.mozilla.org/products/firefox/ (how users defend and cope) -- Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life? Matthew 6:27 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] another 'open new window' dilemma
Hello Tee I am currently working on a site with the nils org here who are accessibility gurus and they have recommended that should i have to open a new window i should use this code a href=http://www.siteurl.com.au; title=Opens in a New Window onclick=window.open(this.href); return false; onkeypress=window.open(this.href); return false;External link here/a this is detailed in the juicy studio article here http://www.juicystudio.com/article/scripting-away-validation.php hope that helps jackie - Original Message - From: tee [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 2:13 PM Subject: [WSG] another 'open new window' dilemma Hi accessible care takers, I know open new window even for external site is no good and have put it in practise for most sites I have done, however I am kind of stuck on a site that has over 100 links to external sites. My client, understands no accessible issues however she was willing to take many of my suggestions, except the NO 'open new window' to external sites. Her argument is valid and justifiable, that she is afraid her audience (marketing decision markers, art directors and IT managers, ad firm account managers etc) will get lost if there isn't new window open for external site. I tried to convince her that her audience probably are more advanced internet users than most grandpa/grandmom audience my other clients have. She doesn't buy it and I haven't give up :) Visited Accessify, sitepoint as well as WSG archives to look for perfect solution; there seems none. It can also be quite a pain adding js code just to make the link works. My temporarily solution is to have the 'title=right click for new window' in the a href tag, and also provides an open new window icon next to the link text, however I am afraid this may actually creates confusion to her audience. So I created another icon that indicates 'right click to open new window' - it seems a bit over kill. I still think the 'title=right click for new window' is the best approach, but I notice the indication takes more than 3 seconds to show. Some people click faster than 3 seconds. Can you tell the message I try to convey at the first glance of the icon? Does it too fancy, too confusing? please see the first two links. http://clients.lotusseeds.com/news/june05_nikkeibussiness.html thanks! tee ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] another 'open new window' dilemma
Hi Tee, All I can say is that, as a sighted viewer, if I encountered a site with 100 links, each of which which opened in the same window, I'd be outa there faster than you can say 'back button' :-) I've been wondering of late if there is another way out of this: just like we can change the colours etc by changing the CSS, (style switching) how about if the user gets a choice by selecting certain site characteristics at start up? Has anyone tried this and taken it as far as choice of how new windows open? Just thinking aloud here . . . Bob McClelland www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk tee wrote: Hi accessible care takers, I know open new window even for external site is no good and have put it in practise for most sites I have done, however I am kind of stuck on a site that has over 100 links to external sites. My client, understands no accessible issues however she was willing to take many of my suggestions, except the NO 'open new window' to external sites. Her argument is valid and justifiable, that she is afraid her audience (marketing decision markers, art directors and IT managers, ad firm account managers etc) will get lost if there isn't new window open for external site. I tried to convince her that her audience probably are more advanced internet users than most grandpa/grandmom audience my other clients have. She doesn't buy it and I haven't give up :) Visited Accessify, sitepoint as well as WSG archives to look for perfect solution; there seems none. It can also be quite a pain adding js code just to make the link works. My temporarily solution is to have the 'title=right click for new window' in the a href tag, and also provides an open new window icon next to the link text, however I am afraid this may actually creates confusion to her audience. So I created another icon that indicates 'right click to open new window' - it seems a bit over kill. I still think the 'title=right click for new window' is the best approach, but I notice the indication takes more than 3 seconds to show. Some people click faster than 3 seconds. Can you tell the message I try to convey at the first glance of the icon? Does it too fancy, too confusing? please see the first two links. http://clients.lotusseeds.com/news/june05_nikkeibussiness.html thanks! tee ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] another 'open new window' dilemma
Hi Tee, Why not say in the text of the page, opens in new browser window in parentheses after the link? (If it's a pdf or other file type, state that here as well, together with the file size.) The WCAG says you should warn people and in *most* cases adding in the warning works well. A lot of (visual) users might miss the warning if it's in a title, which can take a second or two to show up. I do know from experience that sometimes it interrupts the flow of text when the opens in new window warning is used. But personally I think the warning is important if you *do* open a new window. -- Vicki Berry DistinctiveWeb Web: http://www.distinctiveweb.com.au Blog: http://www.unheardword.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] another 'open new window' dilemma
Vicki Berry Why not say in the text of the page, opens in new browser window in parentheses after the link? I'd say not *after* the link, but *as part of* the link. If a user is tabbing between links, they will not get to the text after the link itself. __ Patrick H. Lauke Webmaster / University of Salford http://www.salford.ac.uk __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] another 'open new window' dilemma
Patrick Lauke wrote: I'd say not *after* the link, but *as part of* the link. If a user is tabbing between links, they will not get to the text after the link itself. Good point, Patrick! Thanks. Vicki. :-) -- Vicki Berry DistinctiveWeb Web: http://www.distinctiveweb.com.au Blog: http://www.unheardword.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] another 'open new window' dilemma
tee wrote: done, however I am kind of stuck on a site that has over 100 links to external sites. My client, understands no accessible issues however she was willing to take many of my suggestions, except the NO 'open new window' to external sites. Her argument is valid and justifiable, that she is afraid her audience (marketing decision markers, art directors and IT managers, ad firm account managers etc) will get lost if there isn't new window open for external site. I tried to convince her that her audience probably are more advanced internet users than most grandpa/grandmom audience my other clients have. She doesn't buy it and I haven't give up :) Hi Tee, http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/popups.asp This method is hook-free, it lets you add the behavior to existing documents without having to edit the markup. You can target external links, links inside particular elements in a document (#sidebar, #gallery, etc.) or even links inside a particular folder... You can also *let the user* toggle the behavior on/off using a preference link. Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] another 'open new window' dilemma
Hi All I am finishing up an essay on opening pdf files in new windows, using feedback from this list to justify the argument. Thiery has written a great javascript to look for pdf attributes in links and add class, title, and behavior to the link dynamically. I will let you know when I upload it to my blog. Here's a question for the group. Your client's page has some empty space to the right. Could you replace the magazine graphics with an iframe and load the targeted web sites into the iframe. You could then offer a link in the iframe to open the page in a new window. This gives the visitor the ability to preview the page and then open it in a new window if it looks like something they are interested in. Further, you may be able to use some AJAX to load a snippet of the site into a div instead of an iframe and then use an external link. This site uses an iframe for the gallery: http://www.superiorpixels.com/portfolio.html Ted -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of designer Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 1:39 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] another 'open new window' dilemma Hi Tee, All I can say is that, as a sighted viewer, if I encountered a site with 100 links, each of which which opened in the same window, I'd be outa there faster than you can say 'back button' :-) I've been wondering of late if there is another way out of this: just like we can change the colours etc by changing the CSS, (style switching) how about if the user gets a choice by selecting certain site characteristics at start up? Has anyone tried this and taken it as far as choice of how new windows open? Just thinking aloud here . . . Bob McClelland www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk tee wrote: Hi accessible care takers, I know open new window even for external site is no good and have put it in practise for most sites I have done, however I am kind of stuck on a site that has over 100 links to external sites. My client, understands no accessible issues however she was willing to take many of my suggestions, except the NO 'open new window' to external sites. Her argument is valid and justifiable, that she is afraid her audience (marketing decision markers, art directors and IT managers, ad firm account managers etc) will get lost if there isn't new window open for external site. I tried to convince her that her audience probably are more advanced internet users than most grandpa/grandmom audience my other clients have. She doesn't buy it and I haven't give up :) Visited Accessify, sitepoint as well as WSG archives to look for perfect solution; there seems none. It can also be quite a pain adding js code just to make the link works. My temporarily solution is to have the 'title=right click for new window' in the a href tag, and also provides an open new window icon next to the link text, however I am afraid this may actually creates confusion to her audience. So I created another icon that indicates 'right click to open new window' - it seems a bit over kill. I still think the 'title=right click for new window' is the best approach, but I notice the indication takes more than 3 seconds to show. Some people click faster than 3 seconds. Can you tell the message I try to convey at the first glance of the icon? Does it too fancy, too confusing? please see the first two links. http://clients.lotusseeds.com/news/june05_nikkeibussiness.html thanks! tee ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] another 'open new window' dilemma
At 01:39 AM 8/25/2005, designer wrote: All I can say is that, as a sighted viewer, if I encountered a site with 100 links, each of which which opened in the same window, I'd be outa there faster than you can say 'back button' :-) I've been wondering of late if there is another way out of this: just like we can change the colours etc by changing the CSS, (style switching) how about if the user gets a choice by selecting certain site characteristics at start up? Has anyone tried this and taken it as far as choice of how new windows open? Bob, What I do routinely as a web user, when I don't want to lose the current page, is to right-click on links to bring up the context menu (mouse-keystroke combination on the Mac) and open them in a new window (-- new tab in Firefox). This method of choosing how to open new links is so simple and easy and as far as I know cross-browser, I don't see much necessity in creating new methods for choosing the open-path. What are the situations in which the browser can't let you decide in the moment to open a new window or not? One is javascript-driven links which often mandate a new or old window and rob the user of the ability to choose. Regards, Paul ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] another 'open new window' dilemma
I find it very confusing. The policy we use for our corporate website is to open a new browser window for external links with target=top title=This link will open in a new browser window. Who says opening a new window is bad practice. Especially if it is an outside link. I've been searching the web for information on this and finding nothing. My understanding of web accessibility and 508 is to make everything as clear a possible.If there is a guideline out there that states Thou shall not open new window please post the link. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of tee Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 9:13 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] another 'open new window' dilemma Hi accessible care takers, I know open new window even for external site is no good and have put it in practise for most sites I have done, however I am kind of stuck on a site that has over 100 links to external sites. My client, understands no accessible issues however she was willing to take many of my suggestions, except the NO 'open new window' to external sites. Her argument is valid and justifiable, that she is afraid her audience (marketing decision markers, art directors and IT managers, ad firm account managers etc) will get lost if there isn't new window open for external site. I tried to convince her that her audience probably are more advanced internet users than most grandpa/grandmom audience my other clients have. She doesn't buy it and I haven't give up :) Visited Accessify, sitepoint as well as WSG archives to look for perfect solution; there seems none. It can also be quite a pain adding js code just to make the link works. My temporarily solution is to have the 'title=right click for new window' in the a href tag, and also provides an open new window icon next to the link text, however I am afraid this may actually creates confusion to her audience. So I created another icon that indicates 'right click to open new window' - it seems a bit over kill. I still think the 'title=right click for new window' is the best approach, but I notice the indication takes more than 3 seconds to show. Some people click faster than 3 seconds. Can you tell the message I try to convey at the first glance of the icon? Does it too fancy, too confusing? please see the first two links. http://clients.lotusseeds.com/news/june05_nikkeibussiness.html thanks! tee ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] another 'open new window' dilemma
Hi Janelle Regardless of your window philosophy, I think using target=top is asking for trouble. That is a common target for pages with frames. I would at least suggest using a target name that is not part of the frame architecture. That is why most people used target=_blank. There are better javascript options to avoid using target, which is deprecated in XHTML and is asking html to do behaviors instead of letting javascript do it. Janelle said: I find it very confusing. The policy we use for our corporate website is to open a new browser window for external links with target=top title=This link will open in a new browser window. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] another 'open new window' dilemma
Hi Paul, You're right of course: I do that too. However, I really do think that most folk don't know about right-clicking in the way you describe, so it's not so much a case of choosing as knowing that you can. I suppose one could always put that option clearly as a line of text, viz: To open links in a new window . . . etc. I dunno. But thanks. Bob www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk Paul Novitski wrote: At 01:39 AM 8/25/2005, designer wrote: All I can say is that, as a sighted viewer, if I encountered a site with 100 links, each of which which opened in the same window, I'd be outa there faster than you can say 'back button' :-) I've been wondering of late if there is another way out of this: just like we can change the colours etc by changing the CSS, (style switching) how about if the user gets a choice by selecting certain site characteristics at start up? Has anyone tried this and taken it as far as choice of how new windows open? Bob, What I do routinely as a web user, when I don't want to lose the current page, is to right-click on links to bring up the context menu (mouse-keystroke combination on the Mac) and open them in a new window (-- new tab in Firefox). This method of choosing how to open new links is so simple and easy and as far as I know cross-browser, I don't see much necessity in creating new methods for choosing the open-path. What are the situations in which the browser can't let you decide in the moment to open a new window or not? One is javascript-driven links which often mandate a new or old window and rob the user of the ability to choose. Regards, Paul ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] another 'open new window' dilemma
At 11:00 AM 8/25/2005, Janelle Clemens wrote: Who says opening a new window is bad practice. Especially if it is an outside link. I've been searching the web for information on this and finding nothing. My understanding of web accessibility and 508 is to make everything as clear a possible.If there is a guideline out there that states Thou shall not open new window please post the link. Janelle, As I understand it, when a new window opens a user depending on a screen reader can easily get confused. The new window will take the place of the old one but won't have a history for the Back button. How can the user get back where they came from? Should they close the current window, close the current tab (in a tabbed browser such as Firefox or Opera), or toggle tabs or windows to return to their previous page? If they've got multiple applications open, it could be time-consuming and frustrating to find one's way back. Presumably if we include sufficient warnings within the link itself then folks will know ahead of time that a new window will open and will know how to deal with it. But I don't know if this answers all of the concerns. Regards, Paul ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] another 'open new window' dilemma
On Aug 25, 2005, at 11:24 AM, Drake, Ted C. wrote: Regardless of your window philosophy, I think using target=top is asking for trouble. That is a common target for pages with frames. I would at least suggest using a target name that is not part of the frame architecture. That is why most people used target=_blank. target=_blank will always open a new unnamed window. target=_top will open a link in the outermost frame, replacing all framesets with the document linked to. target=_parent will replace the frameset that defines the frame that has the clicked link, replacing it with the document being linked to. target=top will open a window named top; if the current window is already named top (e.g., it had been opened with such a link), then a new window will not open but instead the document linked to will replace the document with the link in that same window. The problem with target=top is not that it uses a confusing name, but that all links on the site will open into the same window. This means that the typical experience is that the first link opens a new window, and subsequent links open into the same window and if it is minimized or hidden, clicking the link will appear to have done nothing at all. So, regardless of your window-opening philosophy, the standards allow for two methods that are consistantly applied: 1- link replaces current document (no target or js new window) 2- link always opens new window (target=_blank or js equivalent with unnamed window, e.g., window.open(this.href,'',winOptions);) Anything else, and the behavior depends on the context the link is in, possibly meaning that your icons or title text are giving wrong information. -- Ben Curtis : webwright bivia : a personal web studio http://www.bivia.com v: (818) 507-6613 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] another 'open new window' dilemma
Jackie Reid wrote: a href=http://www.siteurl.com.au; title=Opens in a New Window onclick=window.open(this.href); return false; onkeypress=window.open(this.href); return false;External link here/a this is detailed in the juicy studio article here http://www.juicystudio.com/article/scripting-away-validation.php Jackie, I don't think Gez is saying to use this method, I believe it's in the article to show how it was done. Reading Jan and Gez previous posts on this list, I'd say an inline solution to use would be: a href=http://www.siteurl.com.au; title=Opens in a New Window onclick=return !window.open(this.href)External link here/a I'd leave onkeypress out, I believe this event is a bit like accesskeys when it comes to follow Accessibility Guidelines... Or I'd implement something like this http://juicystudio.com/article/ecmascriptmenu.php Look for checkpoint 6.4 in this document Regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] another 'open new window' dilemma
Ben Curtis wrote:
1- link replaces current document (no target or js new window)
2- link always opens new window (target=_blank or js equivalent
with unnamed window, e.g., window.open(this.href,'',winOptions);)
I agree, the opener getting focus each time the user clicks on a link create
problems with named windows (using target or JS).
But I think one can use the following to make sure named windows pop up on
top of the opener.
newWin=window.open(this.href,'zWin');if(window.focus){newWin.focus()}
Regards,
Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com
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RE: [WSG] another 'open new window' dilemma
Does the reader not read the title tag which states Link will open in a new browser window.?I thought that is why we use the title tag to give more info on the link. Thank you all for explaining the use of target=top.I will be discussing this with my manager and hopefully we will start implementing target=_blank. As for using JavaScript I don't see why you would use js to open a new window if you don't want to control the treatment of new window. -Original Message- From: Paul Novitski [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 11:54 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] another 'open new window' dilemma At 11:00 AM 8/25/2005, Janelle Clemens wrote: Who says opening a new window is bad practice. Especially if it is an outside link. I've been searching the web for information on this and finding nothing. My understanding of web accessibility and 508 is to make everything as clear a possible.If there is a guideline out there that states Thou shall not open new window please post the link. Janelle, As I understand it, when a new window opens a user depending on a screen reader can easily get confused. The new window will take the place of the old one but won't have a history for the Back button. How can the user get back where they came from? Should they close the current window, close the current tab (in a tabbed browser such as Firefox or Opera), or toggle tabs or windows to return to their previous page? If they've got multiple applications open, it could be time-consuming and frustrating to find one's way back. Presumably if we include sufficient warnings within the link itself then folks will know ahead of time that a new window will open and will know how to deal with it. But I don't know if this answers all of the concerns. Regards, Paul ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] another 'open new window' dilemma
Janelle Clemens wrote: Does the reader not read the title tag which states Link will open in a new browser window.?I thought that is why we use the title tag to give more info on the link. Not always. Depends on verbosity settings of screen readers, which in many cases don't have that option enabled. Also worth considering that title attributes are not exposed to users browsing via the keyboard or similar device. -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] another 'open new window' dilemma
On Aug 25, 2005, at 12:33 PM, Thierry Koblentz wrote:
Ben Curtis wrote:
1- link replaces current document (no target or js new window)
2- link always opens new window (target=_blank or js equivalent
with unnamed window, e.g., window.open(this.href,'',winOptions);)
I agree, the opener getting focus each time the user clicks on a
link create
problems with named windows (using target or JS).
But I think one can use the following to make sure named windows
pop up on
top of the opener.
newWin=window.open(this.href,'zWin');if(window.focus){newWin.focus()}
True, and that does cure the most disabling aspect of named windows.
However, it is still context sensitive in that if you click a link so-
coded which is in a document already in a window named zWin, then it
will open the new document in the same window instead of the other one.
One could, I suppose, code around that, too (wrapping for legibility
only):
a href=foo.html
onclick=
if (self.name == 'zWin') self.name = '';
var newWin = window.open(this.href, 'zWin');
if (window.focus) newWin.focus();
return ! newWin;
Open Foo/a
But you still haven't coded around the contextuality, since now you
have opened a new window, but which window has what name? If other
links point to zWin, which window is that? Your arrangement of
windows, and what the targets actually point to, is dependent on
previous user actions, which are unpredictable. So, to be
predictable, links either need to target self (no target, no new
win), or always open a new window.
The merits of always knowing your context are as debatable as whether
one should be opening windows in the first place, anyway.
(Of course, if you were to try this sort of thing, you'd be applying
it unobtrusively and not inline like the example...)
--
Ben Curtis : webwright
bivia : a personal web studio
http://www.bivia.com
v: (818) 507-6613
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**
RE: [WSG] another 'open new window' dilemma
Being there are so many things to consider how do you code to compensate for everything. Or which things do you focus on or ignore?Are there stats on what readers or other usability devices are being used and by how many people and what their limitations are and differences between them?We (our webteam) have really been trying to be 508 compliant but now that just seems like not enough, or what we thought we doing correctly may not be. I have to say this discussion is making me feel a little overwhelmed and lost. Especially since I have been searching all the 508 and accessability websites but not finding coding standards (examples). How does one go about making your website accessability friendly? What are the standards? I just want a page that lists This is how you treat an href for the majority of readers, This is treatment for readers A, This treament is for readers B.I feel like everything right now is a theory. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick H. Lauke Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 1:14 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] another 'open new window' dilemma Janelle Clemens wrote: Does the reader not read the title tag which states Link will open in a new browser window.?I thought that is why we use the title tag to give more info on the link. Not always. Depends on verbosity settings of screen readers, which in many cases don't have that option enabled. Also worth considering that title attributes are not exposed to users browsing via the keyboard or similar device. -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re*dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] another 'open new window' dilemma
Hi everyone, thank you for the feedback, I greatly appreciate. Sorry for the slow response but I want to gather as many feedback as possible, then absorb it, so that I can present a better approach for my client. Terrence, thanks for the suggestion. I am going to ask my client for her clients to run a user test on 3 different approach. On Aug 25, 2005, at 8:18 AM, Drake, Ted C. wrote: Your client's page has some empty space to the right. Could you replace the magazine graphics with an iframe and load the targeted web sites into the iframe. You could then offer a link in the iframe to open the page in a new window. This gives the visitor the ability to preview the page and then open it in a new window if it looks like something they are interested in. Further, you may be able to use some AJAX to load a snippet of the site into a div instead of an iframe and then use an external link. Drake, I think this creates complication. Layout wise, my client wants simplicity with emphasis of the colors (orange and grey/earth); also, she wants only the external links related to the content within the same page. Regards, tee ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] another 'open new window' dilemma
Hi Tee, Sorry about the delay. I am behind on my emails. :-) Should you decide to use Thierry's solution, there's a variant in Sitepoint's new book you may like. It adds a checkbox so the surfer can choose the behavior they want. It is described in Chapter three as Creating Smarter Links. Sitepoint offers the first four chapters for free, so you may like to check out the details: DHTML Utopia: Modern Web Design Using JavaScript and DOM http://www.sitepoint.com/books/dhtml1/ With respect to using title attributes, I attend a computer lab and observe a lot of user behaviors. Most seem to point and click too fast to allow a title to appear. Cordially, David -- David Hucklesby, on 8/25/2005 http://www.hucklesby.com/ -- ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] another 'open new window' dilemma
You can suggest some user testing and run an A/B test (no new windows/new windows) on the same design and see what the actual user preference is instead of relying on assumptions. Alternatively, you could provide a prefernce link somewhere on the page that set's a cookie and writes the page with target=_blank for those who prefer it that way after, this bit is important, OPTING-IN by setting the cookie. fon't forget to choose a doctype that supports target=_blank Good luck... let us know how you get on. kind regards Terrence Wood. On 25 Aug 2005, at 4:13 PM, tee wrote: Hi accessible care takers, I know open new window even for external site is no good and have put it in practise for most sites I have done, however I am kind of stuck on a site that has over 100 links to external sites. My client, understands no accessible issues however she was willing to take many of my suggestions, except the NO 'open new window' to external sites. Her argument is valid and justifiable, that she is afraid her audience (marketing decision markers, art directors and IT managers, ad firm account managers etc) will get lost if there isn't new window open for external site. I tried to convince her that her audience probably are more advanced internet users than most grandpa/grandmom audience my other clients have. She doesn't buy it and I haven't give up :) Visited Accessify, sitepoint as well as WSG archives to look for perfect solution; there seems none. It can also be quite a pain adding js code just to make the link works. My temporarily solution is to have the 'title=right click for new window' in the a href tag, and also provides an open new window icon next to the link text, however I am afraid this may actually creates confusion to her audience. So I created another icon that indicates 'right click to open new window' - it seems a bit over kill. I still think the 'title=right click for new window' is the best approach, but I notice the indication takes more than 3 seconds to show. Some people click faster than 3 seconds. Can you tell the message I try to convey at the first glance of the icon? Does it too fancy, too confusing? please see the first two links. http://clients.lotusseeds.com/news/june05_nikkeibussiness.html thanks! tee ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
