Re: [WSG] css for ie4/ie5
Geoff Pack wrote: Sure. But if you are only testing your own sites, and not surfing the web with them, then it shouldn't be much of a risk. Assuming the site hasn't been hacked, there should be ZERO additional risk beyond just being connected. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] css for ie4/ie5
Peter Ottery wrote: fwiw, I forgot about testing in IE4 about 3 years ago. I still like to make things look ok in IE5.0 but if some text is butting up against the edge of a container due to it not supporting some float issue or something, i dont worry about it. Its usually a better story with IE5.5. Unless the site caters to a very unusual crowd, IE4 should be given either unstyled or slightly styled content. IE5.0 might be worth supporting if doing so is trivial, but otherwise treat it like IE4. It's important to draw the line somewhere. Mosaic, for example, doesn't support CSS or tables, and I'm not sure if it even supports forms. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] css for ie4/ie5
Peter Ottery wrote: Peter Firminger wrote: Not at all recommended on any machine you care about. Just for my own peace of mind tho - they're only a security issue when you have launched the program right? so if i'm launching them (old standalone IE5 5.5) once a month to *only* test pages that I've created - I'm not leaving my system open to some rogue security breaching action right? I'm hoping the evolt guys have removed any of the known spyware hooks that were packaged with those browsers (also called browser helper objects - see http://www.spywareinfo.com/articles/bho/). The problem with running IE on a Windows box is just WTF it does in the registry - I don't believe anyone outside of MS actually knows everything IE gets up to, system-wise. Also, make sure your firewall is solid and your AV up to date. IE is _built_ to download and install stuff. Run ZoneAlarm or something like it (*not* Windows Firewall that comes with XP - it knows to let IE through) so you can tell if something does start up and try to access the net. The rule of thumb when installing a new machine is that it only takes 18 minutes online to get infected (takes longer than that to download the patches - catch 22 - see http://aroundcny.com/technofile/texts/tec082904.html) - and it may be something as simple as lowering your security level in the background and leaving it there. I can think of 2 secure ways to use IE/windows to test webpages: 1 run a webserver on a separate box _inside_ your firewall and install your pages there for testing - stack a firewall between the systems if you need to test that. 2 run VirtualPC (or some other windows emulator) on a good fast Mac with lots of RAM (and I'm thinking 1GB and up here) - if you get infected - it's not going to compromise your system and you can easily replace the disk image. I've worked with both options and never got a virus from testing yet. Actually, the only virus I can remember getting was a Sasser infection while upgrading my wife's machine to XP (see above) cheers mark ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] css for ie4/ie5
Mark Harris wrote: I can think of 2 secure ways to use IE/windows to test webpages: 1 run a webserver on a separate box _inside_ your firewall and install your pages there for testing - stack a firewall between the systems if you need to test that. 2 run VirtualPC (or some other windows emulator) on a good fast Mac with lots of RAM (and I'm thinking 1GB and up here) - if you get infected - it's not going to compromise your system and you can easily replace the disk image. and, of course, run a Windows emulator on a linux box [sigh] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] css for ie4/ie5
Standalone versions of IE 4 and IE 5 are available at http://browsers.evolt.org/?ie/32bit/standalone. These will work even if you have a later version of IE installed. cheers, Geoff. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Rhys Burnie Sent: Friday, 14 October 2005 1:52 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] css for ie4/ie5 I am interested in the current opinion of the relevance of css hacks for explorer 4.0.x 5.0.x specifically in regards to the Box Model Hack. I understand the problem associated with the box model in ie4 5 but have begun to question the need for hacks in your css for these browser versions. In an attempt to design for versions of ie 6.0 I attempted to download versions 5.0 and 4.0. Fisrtly ie4 is no longer on the microsift explorer download page and has to be sourced elsewhere. Secondly if you have a later version of ie on your system it wont install an earlier version anyway. This leads me to think that anyone using ie 4 or 5 have either had to make an effort to remove a later vesion of ie to install the earlier version or has not updated their browser. And in order to actually test in ie 4 o r 5 I'll need to install it on another machine. I know this is sounding like a lame excuse for not designing for ie6 but at what point do we stop disigning for minority users who (given the fact that microsoft loves to remind to update its products) have most likely chosen to not update or dont have internet access and therefor wont be viewing your site anyway. I have a great interset in making degradeable cross platform/browser sites but dont want to get so bogged down in hacks that code becomes disorderly and problemetic, especially when ie7 is released. Does anyone else have an opinion on this? I realise its an old issue and remember having discussions with fellow students at Uni a few years ago. But with the implementations in ie6 and the ones to come in ie7 perhaps its time to finally stop worrying about ie 4/5 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] css for ie4/ie5
Rhys wrote: But with the implementations in ie6 and the ones to come in ie7 perhaps its time to finally stop worrying about ie 4/5 you're the only one that can take on that issue and make a decision for *your* site. Different sites require different decisions. Examine your logs and weigh them up against the site objectives (user + business). fwiw, I forgot about testing in IE4 about 3 years ago. I still like to make things look ok [1] in IE5.0 but if some text is butting up against the edge of a container due to it not supporting some float issue or something, i dont worry about it. Its usually a better story with IE5.5. [1] give an example of ok to your client early on and explain why spending 99% of your time on 1% (percentages always make your argument sound good ;-) of their audience is not spending their money in the right place. cheers, pete ~~~ Peter Ottery ~ Creative Director Daemon Pty Ltd 17 Roslyn Gardens Elizabeth Bay NSW 2011 Web: www.daemon.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] css for ie4/ie5
But they may make your system vulnerable as they are not patched. There's a very good reason Microsoft doesn't publish these for developers or anyone else. Not at all recommended on any machine you care about. P Standalone versions of IE 4 and IE 5 are available at http://browsers.evolt.org/?ie/32bit/standalone. These will work even if you have a later version of IE installed. cheers, Geoff. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] css for ie4/ie5
Sure. But if you are only testing your own sites, and not surfing the web with them, then it shouldn't be much of a risk. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Peter Firminger Sent: Friday, 14 October 2005 2:18 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] css for ie4/ie5 But they may make your system vulnerable as they are not patched. There's a very good reason Microsoft doesn't publish these for developers or anyone else. Not at all recommended on any machine you care about. P Standalone versions of IE 4 and IE 5 are available at http://browsers.evolt.org/?ie/32bit/standalone. These will work even if you have a later version of IE installed. cheers, Geoff. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] css for ie4/ie5
Peter Firminger wrote: Not at all recommended on any machine you care about. Just for my own peace of mind tho - they're only a security issue when you have launched the program right? so if i'm launching them (old standalone IE5 5.5) once a month to *only* test pages that I've created - I'm not leaving my system open to some rogue security breaching action right? pete o ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] css for ie4/ie5
Yeah, the main risk is in the OS/Browser integration thing. And, since those versions are standalone, they're safer than IE6... plus your usage patterns for it will be different.On 10/14/05, Peter Ottery [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just for my own peace of mind tho - they're only a security issue whenyou have launched the program right? so if i'm launching them (old standalone IE5 5.5) once a month to *only* test pages that I'vecreated - I'm not leaving my system open to some rogue securitybreachingaction right?-- Joshua Street http://www.joahua.com/+61 (0) 425 808 469
