Re: [WSG] simplyaccessible.org
Hi Graham, Producing a .doc may seem incongruous, but it is just one of around 150 documents covering all Telstra's online standards including wap, platform, styleguides information architecture etc. Yes, apologies for even alluding to that kind of hackneyed response. You now have me distracted by all the interesting info at http://www.telstra.com.au/standards so thanks again. Great to even have access to this kind of resource if only to point out to clients. Nick ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] simplyaccessible.org
On 10/12/05, Nick Lo wrote: >I did want to comment that the form error in the label suggestions >Derek gave have really got me thinking about how my CMS returns users >to forms and alerts them. Hi Nick, That's good - that was my intent! Actually, that was my intent with most of what is already there, and will be there soon (read: there are more examples on the way - and, incidentally I've added a feed to the site so that people can be notified when I post a new example. I can't guarantee I'll be posting a lot more there beyond what I presented at WE05, but I will be posting the rest of those examples over the next while) >I presume that what would be best would be a combination of a message >like > >"Please check the errors indicated in the form below" > >at the top of the form and have the "this must not be blank" on >the relevant field(s)? I think that would be very reasonable, yes. For what it's worth, I've had a tough time abstracting the examples, both in preparation for presenting them at WE05, and for posting them on the web. Not presenting them in context makes certain parts difficult - cf. my use of the zoom layout to change *only* the form layout itself, and nothing about the colours/contrast/size of the rest of the page. At a certain point, though, I needed to leave the rest "to your imagination." Cheers, Derek. -- Derek Featherstone [EMAIL PROTECTED] tel: 613-599-9784 1-866-932-4878 (toll-free in North America) Web Development: http://www.furtherahead.com Personal:http://www.boxofchocolates.ca ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
RE: [WSG] simplyaccessible.org
Hi Nick, Producing a .doc may seem incongruous, but it is just one of around 150 documents covering all Telstra's online standards including wap, platform, styleguides information architecture etc. They are also a part of the overall online documentation repository which includes many product brochures and externally sourced documents comprising over 25,000 files. There is/was an ongoing project to convert these to more accessible formats but since they closed my department (Online Standards) I don't know of the progress now (if any). Grgards Graham Cook UA Oz -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nick Lo Sent: Wednesday, 12 October 2005 2:59 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] simplyaccessible.org I first wanted to say thanks to Derek and Graham for providing all this really great info. Not that I'm fussed and purely playing devil's advocate but I cannot help but see some kind of irony in having an accessibility guideline document in .doc format. It's like the righteous word scribed on the devil's stationery or something, I can hear the indignant echoes of the do not send .doc files argument [1]. I did want to comment that the form error in the label suggestions Derek gave have really got me thinking about how my CMS returns users to forms and alerts them. I was simply having the form errors at the top of the page and changing the appearance of the relevant field's label. This is clearly not good enough for screenreaders and until listening to (WE05 podcast) and reading the examples I had not thought through to a good solution. I presume that what would be best would be a combination of a message like "Please check the errors indicated in the form below" ...at the top of the form and have the "this must not be blank" on the relevant field(s)? Thanks, Nick [1] http://www.google.com/search?q=do+not+send+word+.doc+files > Hi all, > > January this year, when I was still working for Telstra I rewrote their > Universal Accessibility Guidelines document > http://www.telstra.com.au/standards/docs/accb_03001.doc. You may be > interested to have a look at the section on forms and the examples I > wrote > there. > > Regards > > Graham Cook > UA Oz > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > On Behalf Of Derek Featherstone > Sent: Tuesday, 11 October 2005 10:56 AM > To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org > Subject: RE: [WSG] simplyaccessible.org > > On 10/11/05, Terrence Wood wrote: > >> Agreed, you are absolutely correct. Doh! I didn't acutally check the >> source code, no wonder my earlier post was confusing. Sorry Derek. > > No worries... > >> If anyone *is* interested in replicating Dereks layout without the >> extra div's try this: > > > > for what it's worth - I did try using that at certain points, but > generally preferred to add in explicit divs to provide another hook for > styling. YMMV - I also preferred to place each "row" in a block level > element so that without author styles each form field and its label is > still on a row of its own, though that use case may not be as > important. > > Now then, I'd better get back to it so that I can post the second round > of examples... :) > > Cheers, > Derek. > -- > Derek Featherstone [EMAIL PROTECTED] > tel: 613-599-9784 1-866-932-4878 (toll-free in North America) > Web Development: http://www.furtherahead.com > Personal:http://www.boxofchocolates.ca > ** > The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ > > See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > for some hints on posting to the list & getting help > ** > > ** > The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ > > See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > for some hints on posting to the list & getting help > ** > > > ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] simplyaccessible.org
I first wanted to say thanks to Derek and Graham for providing all this really great info. Not that I'm fussed and purely playing devil's advocate but I cannot help but see some kind of irony in having an accessibility guideline document in .doc format. It's like the righteous word scribed on the devil's stationery or something, I can hear the indignant echoes of the do not send .doc files argument [1]. I did want to comment that the form error in the label suggestions Derek gave have really got me thinking about how my CMS returns users to forms and alerts them. I was simply having the form errors at the top of the page and changing the appearance of the relevant field's label. This is clearly not good enough for screenreaders and until listening to (WE05 podcast) and reading the examples I had not thought through to a good solution. I presume that what would be best would be a combination of a message like "Please check the errors indicated in the form below" ...at the top of the form and have the "this must not be blank" on the relevant field(s)? Thanks, Nick [1] http://www.google.com/search?q=do+not+send+word+.doc+files Hi all, January this year, when I was still working for Telstra I rewrote their Universal Accessibility Guidelines document http://www.telstra.com.au/standards/docs/accb_03001.doc. You may be interested to have a look at the section on forms and the examples I wrote there. Regards Graham Cook UA Oz -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Derek Featherstone Sent: Tuesday, 11 October 2005 10:56 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] simplyaccessible.org On 10/11/05, Terrence Wood wrote: Agreed, you are absolutely correct. Doh! I didn't acutally check the source code, no wonder my earlier post was confusing. Sorry Derek. No worries... If anyone *is* interested in replicating Dereks layout without the extra div's try this: for what it's worth - I did try using that at certain points, but generally preferred to add in explicit divs to provide another hook for styling. YMMV - I also preferred to place each "row" in a block level element so that without author styles each form field and its label is still on a row of its own, though that use case may not be as important. Now then, I'd better get back to it so that I can post the second round of examples... :) Cheers, Derek. -- Derek Featherstone [EMAIL PROTECTED] tel: 613-599-9784 1-866-932-4878 (toll-free in North America) Web Development: http://www.furtherahead.com Personal:http://www.boxofchocolates.ca ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
RE: [WSG] simplyaccessible.org
Hi all, January this year, when I was still working for Telstra I rewrote their Universal Accessibility Guidelines document http://www.telstra.com.au/standards/docs/accb_03001.doc. You may be interested to have a look at the section on forms and the examples I wrote there. Regards Graham Cook UA Oz -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Derek Featherstone Sent: Tuesday, 11 October 2005 10:56 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] simplyaccessible.org On 10/11/05, Terrence Wood wrote: >Agreed, you are absolutely correct. Doh! I didn't acutally check the >source code, no wonder my earlier post was confusing. Sorry Derek. No worries... >If anyone *is* interested in replicating Dereks layout without the >extra div's try this: for what it's worth - I did try using that at certain points, but generally preferred to add in explicit divs to provide another hook for styling. YMMV - I also preferred to place each "row" in a block level element so that without author styles each form field and its label is still on a row of its own, though that use case may not be as important. Now then, I'd better get back to it so that I can post the second round of examples... :) Cheers, Derek. -- Derek Featherstone [EMAIL PROTECTED] tel: 613-599-9784 1-866-932-4878 (toll-free in North America) Web Development: http://www.furtherahead.com Personal:http://www.boxofchocolates.ca ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
RE: [WSG] simplyaccessible.org
On 10/11/05, Terrence Wood wrote: >Agreed, you are absolutely correct. Doh! I didn't acutally check the >source code, no wonder my earlier post was confusing. Sorry Derek. No worries... >If anyone *is* interested in replicating Dereks layout without the >extra div's try this: for what it's worth - I did try using that at certain points, but generally preferred to add in explicit divs to provide another hook for styling. YMMV - I also preferred to place each "row" in a block level element so that without author styles each form field and its label is still on a row of its own, though that use case may not be as important. Now then, I'd better get back to it so that I can post the second round of examples... :) Cheers, Derek. -- Derek Featherstone [EMAIL PROTECTED] tel: 613-599-9784 1-866-932-4878 (toll-free in North America) Web Development: http://www.furtherahead.com Personal:http://www.boxofchocolates.ca ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] simplyaccessible.org
Terrence Wood wrote: > If anyone *is* interested in replicating Dereks layout without the > extra div's try this: > Username > must not contain spaces > > I'd prefer to go with explicit labeling rather than implicit labeling, but I believe with this layout it doesn't really matter... Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
RE: [WSG] simplyaccessible.org
Drake, Ted C. said:
> A fieldset should contain a set of similar inputs[...] It would defeat
> the coordinating purpose to use a fieldset randomly to create rows or
> columns.
Agreed, you are absolutely correct. Doh! I didn't acutally check the
source code, no wonder my earlier post was confusing. Sorry Derek.
If anyone *is* interested in replicating Dereks layout without the extra
div's try this:
label {
display:block;
width: 10em;
position:relative;
padding: 0.2em;
}
input {
position: absolute;
left: 11em;
width: 15em;
}
label em {
position: absolute;
left:23em;
width: 100%;
color: red;
}
User Details
Username
must not contain spaces
Email Address
First Name
must not be blank
Last Name
--
kind regards
Terrence Wood.
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**
RE: [WSG] simplyaccessible.org
Hi Terrance A fieldset should contain a set of similar inputs, such as the users personal information, a fieldset for creditcard information, shipping address, etc. It would defeat the coordinating purpose to use a fieldset randomly to create rows or columns. That said, you could set a width to a fieldset and float the fieldsets to create a columnar form. Ted www.tdrake.net -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Terrence Wood Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 3:46 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] simplyaccessible.org Derek Featherstone said: > the divs are there to provide additional style hooks[...] to > create "rows" without using tables. You have not misinterpeted what I was saying, sorry my email is a little terse today.I would've have emailed you off-list but couldn't find your email anywhere (within my 3 second attention span =) I guess my point is that if you need to create 'rows' of form controls, then isn't this what the fieldset element is for? I'm figuring these examples will be influential for newbies and so it would be nice if the examples used fieldset as it is intended instead of divs, and you would only need an addtional rule to style the border. pedantic or semantic you decide =) kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] simplyaccessible.org
Derek Featherstone said: > the divs are there to provide additional style hooks[...] to > create "rows" without using tables. You have not misinterpeted what I was saying, sorry my email is a little terse today.I would've have emailed you off-list but couldn't find your email anywhere (within my 3 second attention span =) I guess my point is that if you need to create 'rows' of form controls, then isn't this what the fieldset element is for? I'm figuring these examples will be influential for newbies and so it would be nice if the examples used fieldset as it is intended instead of divs, and you would only need an addtional rule to style the border. pedantic or semantic you decide =) kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] simplyaccessible.org
On 10/11/05, Terrence Wood wrote: >Derek, can you update your examoples to use fieldsets instead of divs >to group the form controls together? I do use fieldsets to group form controls together but in most cases, there is one fieldset around all the items in one form - the divs are there to provide additional style hooks to create CSS based form layouts and to allow me to create "rows" without using tables. Or am I misinterpreting what you are saying here? Cheers, Derek. -- Derek Featherstone [EMAIL PROTECTED] tel: 613-599-9784 1-866-932-4878 (toll-free in North America) Web Development: http://www.furtherahead.com Personal:http://www.boxofchocolates.ca ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] simplyaccessible.org
Vicki Berry said: > I've just gotta say... this is fantastic. Derek, can you update your examoples to use fieldsets instead of divs to group the form controls together? kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
