Re: [WSG] the Name attribute
Joe Ortenzi wrote: standards compliance should not be confused with WCAG conformance. HTML is a standard WCAG is a guidance that people use as if it were a standard, which could easily be a standard but is effectively not one. However, complying with WCAG confers added benefits which standards compliance creators strive for. Standard is a pretty fuzzy word. Might be worth clarifying what definition of standard you are applying here. -- Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] the Name attribute
I was not using the term standards in the sense of a standards to be met
then everything is OK, but as a collective of best practices.
Web standards in the sense that I meant it, means designing with usability
and accessibility in mind.
Valid code is a pre-requisite to this.
Usability is the next step - e.g. don't use something that is consistently
in the top ten list of things that users hate; do use something that
usability studies have found to be helpful features.
Accessibility is an extension of usability to include non-standard ways of
browsing the web.
Complying with WCAG is step towards accessibility. Careful consideration
has to be given how one applies WCAG meaningfully.
Research has shown that Websites meeting WCAG were still found difficult
to use by disabled users - mainly because of a lack of consideration to
basic standards of usability.
Designing using these approaches is what I meant by designing to standards.
On Tue, December 2, 2008 8:07 pm, Joe Ortenzi wrote:
standards compliance should not be confused with WCAG conformance.
HTML is a standard WCAG is a guidance that people use as if it were a
standard, which could easily be a standard but is effectively not
one. However, complying with WCAG confers added benefits which
standards compliance creators strive for.
On 29/11/2008, at 09:22 , Stuart Foulstone wrote:
It may validate, but valid code is just a pre-requisite to achieving
standards compliance.
On Fri, November 28, 2008 8:43 pm, Dave Hall wrote:
On Fri, 2008-11-28 at 13:07 +, Stuart Foulstone wrote:
Blinking text is against standards in itself, so how can you do it
in a
standards compliant way?
Using the sample I posted - see below. That validates.
Cheers
Dave
On Fri, November 28, 2008 10:45 am, Dave Hall wrote:
!-- ... --
head
style type=text/css
/* ... */
.blink{
text-decoration: blink;
}
/* ... */
/style
!-- ... --
/head
body
!-- ... --
span class=blinkmy blinking test/span
!-- ... --
/body
instead of
!-- ... --
blinkmy blinking test/blink
!-- ... --
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Re: [WSG] the Name attribute
On Dec 3, 2008, at 8:19 AM, Stuart Foulstone wrote: Accessibility is an extension of usability to include non-standard ways of browsing the web. Complying with WCAG is step towards accessibility. Careful consideration has to be given how one applies WCAG meaningfully. Research has shown that Websites meeting WCAG were still found difficult to use by disabled users Absolutely! Though personally I tend to think of usability as an extension of accessibility. During the design phase I *try* to keep in mind, and in balance: standards-compliance; accessibility; usability; design. In implementation I believe each of these levels is a pre-requisite to its sequel, and that in turn each enhances its precursor. A standards-compliant site will likely be more accessible than a site presenting the same content using non-standards techniques, and provides a solid foundation on which to add accessibility enhancements. Likewise, accessibility itself inherently improves usability, and opens the way to further usability enhancements, which contribute to, and influence, design decisions that can further improve usability. And as for design, I believe its purpose is firstly to enhance the functionality of some thing that people use for some definable purpose in their daily lives, and this requires a different set of aesthetic criteria than those applied to fine art. In the end an ugly tool that performs its task efficiently and is easy to use is *always* a better design than something that is hard-to-use and ineffective. Which is not, of course to say that it's impossible to combine beauty, functionality and usability. Andrew *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] the Name attribute
standards compliance should not be confused with WCAG conformance.
HTML is a standard WCAG is a guidance that people use as if it were a
standard, which could easily be a standard but is effectively not
one. However, complying with WCAG confers added benefits which
standards compliance creators strive for.
On 29/11/2008, at 09:22 , Stuart Foulstone wrote:
It may validate, but valid code is just a pre-requisite to achieving
standards compliance.
On Fri, November 28, 2008 8:43 pm, Dave Hall wrote:
On Fri, 2008-11-28 at 13:07 +, Stuart Foulstone wrote:
Blinking text is against standards in itself, so how can you do it
in a
standards compliant way?
Using the sample I posted - see below. That validates.
Cheers
Dave
On Fri, November 28, 2008 10:45 am, Dave Hall wrote:
!-- ... --
head
style type=text/css
/* ... */
.blink{
text-decoration: blink;
}
/* ... */
/style
!-- ... --
/head
body
!-- ... --
span class=blinkmy blinking test/span
!-- ... --
/body
instead of
!-- ... --
blinkmy blinking test/blink
!-- ... --
***
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Joseph Ortenzi
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
+61 (0)434 047 804
http://www.typingthevoid.com
http://twitter.com/wheelyweb
http://www.linkedin.com/in/jortenzi
Skype:wheelyweb
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Re: [WSG] the Name attribute
Blinking text is against standards in itself, so how can you do it in a
standards compliant way?
On Fri, November 28, 2008 10:45 am, Dave Hall wrote:
On Thu, 2008-11-27 at 23:11 -0600, Brett Patterson wrote:
What Dave?
I was simply illustrating how to make text blink in a standards
compliant way. You never know someone might find such information
useful one day. The example I provided would allow them to avoid using
the ugly non standard blink
Cheers
Dave
PS this wasn't supposed to be taken as advocating the use of blinking text
:)
On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 6:04 AM, Dave Hall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Thu, 2008-11-27 at 10:18 +, David Dorward wrote:
Brett Patterson wrote:
Where could I find a good information site about the
document.images.imageId script line, please?
http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/REC-DOM-Level-1-19981001/level-one-html.html#ID-26809268
And if you are trying to code using codes such as
http://www.kirupa.com/forum/showthread.php?t=217502
Just an example. A quick search to find.
A quick search can also find out how to use blink tags and
tables for
layout. That is a good example of worst practises.
Yes we all know that you should always use
!-- ... --
head
style type=text/css
/* ... */
.blink{
text-decoration: blink;
}
/* ... */
/style
!-- ... --
/head
body
!-- ... --
span class=blinkmy blinking test/span
!-- ... --
/body
instead of
!-- ... --
blinkmy blinking test/blink
!-- ... --
***
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Re: [WSG] the Name attribute
On Thu, 2008-11-27 at 23:11 -0600, Brett Patterson wrote:
What Dave?
I was simply illustrating how to make text blink in a standards
compliant way. You never know someone might find such information
useful one day. The example I provided would allow them to avoid using
the ugly non standard blink
Cheers
Dave
PS this wasn't supposed to be taken as advocating the use of blinking text :)
On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 6:04 AM, Dave Hall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Thu, 2008-11-27 at 10:18 +, David Dorward wrote:
Brett Patterson wrote:
Where could I find a good information site about the
document.images.imageId script line, please?
http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/REC-DOM-Level-1-19981001/level-one-html.html#ID-26809268
And if you are trying to code using codes such as
http://www.kirupa.com/forum/showthread.php?t=217502
Just an example. A quick search to find.
A quick search can also find out how to use blink tags and
tables for
layout. That is a good example of worst practises.
Yes we all know that you should always use
!-- ... --
head
style type=text/css
/* ... */
.blink{
text-decoration: blink;
}
/* ... */
/style
!-- ... --
/head
body
!-- ... --
span class=blinkmy blinking test/span
!-- ... --
/body
instead of
!-- ... --
blinkmy blinking test/blink
!-- ... --
***
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Re: [WSG] the Name attribute
On Fri, 2008-11-28 at 13:07 +, Stuart Foulstone wrote:
Blinking text is against standards in itself, so how can you do it in a
standards compliant way?
Using the sample I posted - see below. That validates.
Cheers
Dave
On Fri, November 28, 2008 10:45 am, Dave Hall wrote:
!-- ... --
head
style type=text/css
/* ... */
.blink{
text-decoration: blink;
}
/* ... */
/style
!-- ... --
/head
body
!-- ... --
span class=blinkmy blinking test/span
!-- ... --
/body
instead of
!-- ... --
blinkmy blinking test/blink
!-- ... --
***
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RE: [WSG] the Name attribute
Stuart's point is that blinking content violates checkpoint 7.2 of the W3C
Web Content Accessibility Guidelines:
Until user agents allow users to control blinking, avoid causing content to
blink (i.e., change presentation at a regular rate, such as turning on and
off)
Steve
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dave Hall
Sent: 28 November 2008 20:44
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] the Name attribute
On Fri, 2008-11-28 at 13:07 +, Stuart Foulstone wrote:
Blinking text is against standards in itself, so how can you do it in
a standards compliant way?
Using the sample I posted - see below. That validates.
Cheers
Dave
On Fri, November 28, 2008 10:45 am, Dave Hall wrote:
!-- ... --
head
style type=text/css
/* ... */
.blink{
text-decoration: blink;
}
/* ... */
/style
!-- ... --
/head
body
!-- ... --
span class=blinkmy blinking test/span
!-- ... --
/body
instead of
!-- ... --
blinkmy blinking test/blink
!-- ... --
***
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Re: [WSG] the Name attribute
It may validate, but valid code is just a pre-requisite to achieving
standards compliance.
On Fri, November 28, 2008 8:43 pm, Dave Hall wrote:
On Fri, 2008-11-28 at 13:07 +, Stuart Foulstone wrote:
Blinking text is against standards in itself, so how can you do it in a
standards compliant way?
Using the sample I posted - see below. That validates.
Cheers
Dave
On Fri, November 28, 2008 10:45 am, Dave Hall wrote:
!-- ... --
head
style type=text/css
/* ... */
.blink{
text-decoration: blink;
}
/* ... */
/style
!-- ... --
/head
body
!-- ... --
span class=blinkmy blinking test/span
!-- ... --
/body
instead of
!-- ... --
blinkmy blinking test/blink
!-- ... --
***
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Re: [WSG] the Name attribute
On Thu, 2008-11-27 at 10:18 +, David Dorward wrote:
Brett Patterson wrote:
Where could I find a good information site about the
document.images.imageId script line, please?
http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/REC-DOM-Level-1-19981001/level-one-html.html#ID-26809268
And if you are trying to code using codes such as
http://www.kirupa.com/forum/showthread.php?t=217502
Just an example. A quick search to find.
A quick search can also find out how to use blink tags and tables for
layout. That is a good example of worst practises.
Yes we all know that you should always use
!-- ... --
head
style type=text/css
/* ... */
.blink{
text-decoration: blink;
}
/* ... */
/style
!-- ... --
/head
body
!-- ... --
span class=blinkmy blinking test/span
!-- ... --
/body
instead of
!-- ... --
blinkmy blinking test/blink
!-- ... --
Cheers
Dave
***
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Re: [WSG] the Name attribute
Brett Patterson wrote: Where could I find a good information site about the document.images.imageId script line, please? http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/REC-DOM-Level-1-19981001/level-one-html.html#ID-26809268 And if you are trying to code using codes such as http://www.kirupa.com/forum/showthread.php?t=217502 Just an example. A quick search to find. A quick search can also find out how to use blink tags and tables for layout. That is a good example of worst practises. -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] the Name attribute
What Dave?
On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 6:04 AM, Dave Hall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Thu, 2008-11-27 at 10:18 +, David Dorward wrote:
Brett Patterson wrote:
Where could I find a good information site about the
document.images.imageId script line, please?
http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/REC-DOM-Level-1-19981001/level-one-html.html#ID-26809268
And if you are trying to code using codes such as
http://www.kirupa.com/forum/showthread.php?t=217502
Just an example. A quick search to find.
A quick search can also find out how to use blink tags and tables for
layout. That is a good example of worst practises.
Yes we all know that you should always use
!-- ... --
head
style type=text/css
/* ... */
.blink{
text-decoration: blink;
}
/* ... */
/style
!-- ... --
/head
body
!-- ... --
span class=blinkmy blinking test/span
!-- ... --
/body
instead of
!-- ... --
blinkmy blinking test/blink
!-- ... --
Cheers
Dave
***
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--
Brett P.
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Re: [WSG] the Name attribute
So I thought. But why, when using JavaScript can you not target the ID of an element such as an image? You can target the name, but not the ID, not without document.getElementById-blah blah blah, so how can it duplicate it? It seems then, that is does not. On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 1:32 PM, David Dorward [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Brett Patterson wrote: I don't why, but XHTML (I am using Strict 1.0 in the below examples), has deprecated the use of the name attribute. That being said, my question is, Why was the name attribute deprecated?. Because (on the elements upon which it was deprecated) it did nothing except duplicate the functionality of the id attribute. -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Brett P. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] the Name attribute
Brett Patterson wrote: So I thought. But why, when using JavaScript can you not target the ID of an element such as an image? You can. You can target the name, but not the ID, Incorrect. not without document.getElementById Why would you want to do it without document.getElementById? Even if you did, document.images.imageId works fine (at least in the quick test I performed). -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] the Name attribute
Where could I find a good information site about the document.images.imageId script line, please? And if you are trying to code using codes such as http://www.kirupa.com/forum/showthread.php?t=217502 Just an example. A quick search to find. On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 12:52 PM, David Dorward [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Brett Patterson wrote: So I thought. But why, when using JavaScript can you not target the ID of an element such as an image? You can. You can target the name, but not the ID, Incorrect. not without document.getElementById Why would you want to do it without document.getElementById? Even if you did, document.images.imageId works fine (at least in the quick test I performed). -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Brett P. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] the Name attribute
That is strange, the examples didn't show. Any idea as to why? On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 12:56 PM, Brett Patterson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't why, but XHTML (I am using Strict 1.0 in the below examples), has deprecated the use of the name attribute. That being said, my question is, Why was the name attribute deprecated?. -- Brett P. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Brett P. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] the Name attribute
Brett Patterson wrote: I don't why, but XHTML (I am using Strict 1.0 in the below examples), has deprecated the use of the name attribute. That being said, my question is, Why was the name attribute deprecated?. Because (on the elements upon which it was deprecated) it did nothing except duplicate the functionality of the id attribute. -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
