Re: [WSG] theage.com.au: new design
Peter Ottery has agreed to be guest presenter at our next Sydney WSG meeting. He will be talking about the Age (and another soon-to-be launched site). He will go through the how he achieved full CSS as well as describing some of the layout decisions he made. Should be great stuff. http://webstandardsgroup.org/go/event10.cfm Of course, notes will be put online for all non-Sydney members! Also, Sydney people should note we have decided to change our meetings from every 6 weeks to every 8 weeks. Not a big deal, but gives Peter and I a bit of breathing space between meetings. :) Russ Peter, Well done on the Age website! There's a lot of buzz from people here in Melbourne about it, and it has been received very well. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] theage.com.au: new design
Peter Ottery spoke the following wise words on 20/04/2004 10:27 AM EST: hiya, we relaunched theage.com.au today with improved markup and a css layout. http://theage.com.au/ Peter, once again my hat goes off to the f2 team. One interesting choice , I noticed, was in the print style sheet where you've set a 600px width for #content. Shouldn't you be letting the UA set it's own margins for printing? Also, have you considered including a rule in the print stylesheet for those using CSS3 capable browsers to print the URL of links? -- tim lucas www.toolmantim.com smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
Re: [WSG] theage.com.au: new design
Nice one It's great to see such a large site being discussed openly on the list. Other than what has been discussed, the only I thing I can see is the markup: p class=standardsNote strongNote:/strong You are reading this message either because you can not see our css files, or because you do not have a standards-compliant browser. Read our a href=http://www.f2.com.au/browserstandards/;browser standards page/a for details or a text based version of this site is a href=www.theage.com.au/text/index.htmlavailable here/a. /p That will be visible to your search engines... it would be better to put this behind a help link on the site. Cheers James Tim Lucas wrote: Peter Ottery spoke the following wise words on 20/04/2004 10:27 AM EST: hiya, we relaunched theage.com.au today with improved markup and a css layout. http://theage.com.au/ Peter, once again my hat goes off to the f2 team. One interesting choice , I noticed, was in the print style sheet where you've set a 600px width for #content. Shouldn't you be letting the UA set it's own margins for printing? Also, have you considered including a rule in the print stylesheet for those using CSS3 capable browsers to print the URL of links? -- tim lucas www.toolmantim.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] theage.com.au: new design
Title: RE: [WSG] theage.com.au: new design Hi Tim, re I noticed, was in the print style sheet where you've set a 600px width for #content. Shouldn't you be letting the UA set it's own margins for printing? yep, guilty as charged, in a mad rush i put that in as a quick solution (opera seemed to chop off the last word or so on the right when i didnt specify a width..?) but i'll be looking at that today to get a more scaleable solution re have you considered including a rule in the print stylesheet for those using CSS3 capable browsers to print the URL of links? i will now ;-) cheers for yr feedback, pete -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Tim Lucas Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 6:04 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] theage.com.au: new design Peter Ottery spoke the following wise words on 20/04/2004 10:27 AM EST: hiya, we relaunched theage.com.au today with improved markup and a css layout. http://theage.com.au/ Peter, once again my hat goes off to the f2 team. One interesting choice , I noticed, was in the print style sheet where you've set a 600px width for #content. Shouldn't you be letting the UA set it's own margins for printing? Also, have you considered including a rule in the print stylesheet for those using CSS3 capable browsers to print the URL of links? -- tim lucas www.toolmantim.com
RE: [WSG] theage.com.au: new design
Title: RE: [WSG] theage.com.au: new design James wrote: It's great to see such a large site being discussed openly on the list. agreed. feels a bit weird - but hey, we're one big happy family right? ;-) Other than what has been discussed, the only I thing I can see is the markup: p class=standardsNote That will be visible to your search engines... it would be better to put this behind a help link on the site. also agreed. to be honest we were worried about the NS4 crowd (and other similar browsers) seeing the unstyled page and hoped that this message would ease the shock and provide some useful info. what has occured is not ONE such email, (which is obviously great) so we are ripping it of shortly. thanks James :) pete
Re: [WSG] theage.com.au: new design
Yeah, taxidermy's the best option for them ... the NS4 people who have raised your site is broken with me upgraded to Net 7. Ooh it works. That said, I did have a user complain that the site was slow on their 2.4 kb modem the other day, truly. I thought about buying a 56k modem for them. Cheers James Peter Ottery wrote: James wrote: It's great to see such a large site being discussed openly on the list. agreed. feels a bit weird - but hey, we're one big happy family right? ;-) Other than what has been discussed, the only I thing I can see is the markup: p class=standardsNote That will be visible to your search engines... it would be better to put this behind a help link on the site. also agreed. to be honest we were worried about the NS4 crowd (and other similar browsers) seeing the unstyled page and hoped that this message would ease the shock and provide some useful info. what has occured is not ONE such email, (which is obviously great) so we are ripping it of shortly. thanks James :) pete * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] theage.com.au: new design
Peter, Very nice work, I like it alot. Works well in IE. You might want to look at it in FireFox 0.8 though, lots of strange behaviours happening with overlaps and the left column disappearing out of the viewport at sizes smaller than 800x600 Martin Antrobus __ Senior Web Designer, Enterprise Business Solutions CSC 212 Northbourne Ave, Braddon, 2612 ACT Ph: +61 2 6246 8713 Fax: +61 2 6246 8188 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.csc.com creative.csc.com.au This is a PRIVATE message. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete without copying and kindly advise us by e-mail of the mistake in delivery. NOTE: Regardless of content, this e-mail shall not operate to bind CSC to any order or other contract unless pursuant to explicit written agreement or government initiative expressly permitting the use of e-mail for such purpose. Peter Ottery [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 20/04/2004 10:27 AM Please respond to wsg To: 'Web Standards Group (E-mail)' [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Subject: [WSG] theage.com.au: new design hiya, we relaunched theage.com.au today with improved markup and a css layout. http://theage.com.au/ a couple of points of interest: a big part of the redesign was improving the markup - ie: obviously using h tags and ul tags etc. still have a ways to go and it'll be a learning process for the many editors etc that maintain the site (which is why you may come across some irregularities in parts of the site). the pages pass thru s many sets of hands to make it to the live site (so be gentle :) eg: - information architects - design (me) - CMS/tech guys - editors the layout is centred and fixed width - mainly for editorial reasons/requests for tighter control over positioning and relationships between elements on the page (eg: pictures relating to headlines). the default css is for a layout that fits at 800 wide, then a script detects if you are browsing at 1024 wide or higher and loads a 1024 css layout (which just overrides some of the width values etc). this was to satisfy the need for tight control over the layout but to also try to optimise the layout for the ever growing 1024+ audience (stats below).some interesting stats: in the last month theage.com.au has had 1,718,644 unique visitors browser stats for the last month IE6 - 73% IE 5.5 - 9% IE 5.5 - 9% IE 5.0X - 7% Mozilla - 1% Firebird - 1% Safari - 0.7% screen res stats for the last month 1024x768 - 55% 800x600 - 27.4% 1280x1024 - 7% 1152x864 - 3.3% 1400x1050 - 1.35% (those %'s wont add up - they are just the main ones :) page weight (markup only) yesterday - 65k today - 37kany thoughts/feedback/problems spotted appreciated - as long as they're relevant to this list of course (if they're not feel free to email me directly). pete Peter Ottery Head of Design f2 Network (02) 8596 4450 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.f2.com.au
Re: [WSG] theage.com.au: new design
the age looks really good its a lot easier to read than smh.com.au Benjamin Life through a polaroid www.lifethroughapolaroid.com !DOCTYPE html PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN html head meta content=text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1 http-equiv=Content-Type title/title /head body Hey Peter,br br I dont know if its your intention, but some pages i loaded wern't centered...br Like articles etc...br br A comment on your stats the resolution - font face=Arial size=2span class=312014522-19042004font face=Arial size=2span class=312014522-19042004span class=312014522-19042004span class=312014522-19042004span class=312014522-19042004span class=312014522-19042004span class=312014522-19042004span class=312014522-19042004span class=312014522-19042004span class=312014522-190420041400x1050 br /span/span/span/span/span/span/span/span/span/font/span/fontspan class=312014522-19042004span class=312014522-19042004span class=312014522-19042004span class=312014522-19042004span class=312014522-19042004span class=312014522-19042004span class=312014522-19042004span class=312014522-19042004span class=312014522-19042004span class=312014522-19042004I am running this resolution, I didnt realise that many people actually had it...br br Its a laptop resolution - as far as i know its only laptops...br br nice work!br br damn it must be a lot of work - working for a news website!br so many users, so many computers, so many different OS/Browsers and other little issues...br /span/span/span/span/span/span/span/span/span/span pre class=moz-signature cols=72Chris Stratford a class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated href=mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED]/a a class=moz-txt-link-freetext href=Http://www.neester.com;Http://www.neester.com/a/pre br br Peter Ottery wrote: blockquote cite=[EMAIL PROTECTED] type=cite meta http-equiv=Content-Type content=text/html; meta content=MSHTML 6.00.2800.1400 name=GENERATOR divfont face=Arial size=2span class=312014522-19042004hiya,/span/font/div divfont face=Arial size=2span class=312014522-19042004we relaunched theage.com.au todaynbsp;withnbsp;improved markup and a css layout./span/font/div divfont face=Arial size=2span class=312014522-19042004a href=http://theage.com.au/;http://theage.com.au//a/span/font/div divfont face=Arial size=2span class=312014522-19042004/span/fontnbsp;/div divfont face=Arial size=2span class=312014522-19042004stronga couple of points of interest:/strong/span/font/div ul lifont face=Arial size=2span class=312014522-19042004a big part of the redesign was improvingnbsp;the markupnbsp;- ie: obviously using lt;hgt; tags and lt;ulgt; tags etc. still have a ways to go and it'll be a learning process for the many editors etc that maintain the site (which is why you may come across some irregularities in parts of the site). span class=312014522-19042004span class=312014522-19042004the pages pass thru s many sets of hands to make it to the live site (so be gentle :) eg: - information architects -gt; design (me) -gt; CMS/tech guys -gt; editors/span/span/span/font/li lifont face=Arial size=2span class=312014522-19042004the layout is centred and fixed width - mainly for editorial reasons/requests for tighter control over positioning and relationships between elements on the page (eg: pictures relating to headlines). the default css is for a layout that fits at 800 wide, then a script detects if you are browsing at 1024 wide or higher and loads a 1024 cssnbsp;layout (which just overrides some of the width values etc). this was to satisfy the need for tight control over the layout but to also try to optimise the layout for the ever growing 1024+ audience (stats below)./span/font/li /ul divfont face=Arial size=2span class=312014522-19042004strongsome interesting stats:/strong/span/font/div font face=Arial size=2span class=312014522-19042004 ul lispan class=312014522-19042004font face=Arial size=2in the last monthnbsp;theage.com.au hasnbsp;had /font/spanspan class=312014522-19042004font face=Arial size=21,718,644 unique visitors/font/span/li lispan class=312014522-19042004font face=Arial size=2browser stats for the last month/font/span/li ul lispan class=312014522-19042004font face=Arial size=2IE6 - span class=312014522-19042004font face=Arial size=273% /font/span/font/span/li lifont face=Arial size=2span class=312014522-19042004span class=312014522-19042004IE 5.5 - span class=312014522-19042004span class=312014522-190420049% /span/span/span/span/font/li lifont face=Arial size=2span class=312014522-19042004span class=312014522-19042004span class=312014522-19042004span class=312014522-19042004span class=312014522-19042004span class=312014522-19042004IE 5.5 - span class=312014522-19042004span class=312014522-19042004span class=312014522-19042004span class=312014522-19042004span
Re: [WSG] theage.com.au: new design
Peter,
It's great to see another big player strutting a bit of CSS/Standards
muscle!
I really admire what you're trying to do with JavaScript to use a wider
layout where possible (with a sensible default), but resizing the
browser window (quote a common occurrence I would have thought) can
produce some scary results...
Resizing under IE six seems fine (haven't checked 5.x), but Firefox
(for example) loses it's navigation bar (left) when resized down from
1024 to 800 wide, and worse still, it can't be scrolled to. In the
process, the background image sits in a weird spot (obscuring text),
and things like the search box disappear off the right of the screen.
I *think* you might be able to solve the problem in one of two ways:
a) on resize, reload the page (annoying, but it will fix the problem)
b) place a 1px border or padding on the left edge of the layout, which
will force your layout to disappear off the right edge of the window
only (not the left), which will mean the behaviour is normal for a
1024 layout viewed at 800.
I stumbled on option B one day when researching something related to
what you're doing. Here's a quick sample:
!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN
http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd;
html xmlns=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml; xml:lang=en-au
lang=en-au
head
meta http-equiv=content-type content=text/html;
charset=iso-8859-15 /
titleUntitled/title
style
#wrapper {
position: relative;
width: 760px;
margin: 0 auto;
padding: 1px;
}
/style
/head
body
div id='wrapper'
a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z
/div
/body
/html
Setting the padding of #wrapper to 0px and resizing to a small window
will cause a b c... to disapear off the left. But leaving it at 1px
will ensure that the left edge of #wrapper doesn't disappear off the
left edge of the window.
Your combined Mozilla/Firebird audience looks like at least 34372
unique visitors a day, so it's something you probably want to take a
look at :)
---
Justin French
http://indent.com.au
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
*
RE: [WSG] theage.com.au: new design
Title: RE: [WSG] theage.com.au: new design hi, Justin wrote: Firefox loses it's navigation bar (left) when resized down from 1024 to 800 wide and place a 1px border or padding on the left edge of the layout, which will force your layout to disappear off the right edge of the window only (not the left), which will mean the behaviour is normal for a 1024 layout viewed at 800. Martin wrote: strange behaviours happening with overlaps and the left column disappearing out of the viewport at sizes smaller than 800x600 I did see this before but figured it was something we'd (unfortunately) have to live with - but i've just implemented your suggestion Justin (HUGE thanks obviously! :) of a 1px padding on the left of the #wrap and firefox now looks to be behaving correctly, with no adverse affects on anything else : http://theage.com.au/ one thing though, as you scale your window down in Firefox, below 800 wide, you'll see the adverts keep drifting - and still cover up some content... any ideas let me know ;-) how good is this list! pete
