Re: [WSG] webpatterns and patternquiz
Richard, I think you're right on both counts... Yes, in order for this to be effective the more professionals who contribute, the better it will be. And yes, absolutely, it's not about stating this is the ONLY way you can do this but presenting a set of choices. I look forward to seeing the next stage ;o) it's begun already! Get along to http://webpatterns.org/wordpress/?p=4 and start adding some patterns :-)! everyone is welcome, and its easy john John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher Web Essentials web development conference :: http://we05.com WebPatterns :: http://webpatterns.org ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] webpatterns and patternquiz
In a nutshell, a pattern is a a problem which occurs over and over again … and … the core of the solution to that problem. When we build sites, unconsciously we use patterns all the time - it's just very little work has been done trying to capture and document them. That's what I've started http://webpatterns.org to do. I've started with site level patterns. I'm really interested in the thoughts of all developers about the patterns which we use, so if you have a moment please come along, and contribute your thoughts and experience Gday, Keep in mind I am just a student, but isn't something that describes it at site level more a framework rather than a pattern? From Wikipedia A design pattern isn't a finished design that can be transformed directly into code http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_%28computer_programming%29; it is a description or template for how to solve a problem that can be used in many different situations. . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_pattern_%28computer_science%29 Isn't a pattern usually a description of how to solve generic complex issues, such as dynamic binding? But an academic course page can't be used in a e-commerce store. It's quite specific for a particular area. Again from Wikipedia, a Framework can be considered as the processes and technologies used to solve a complex issue. It is the skeleton upon which various objects are integrated for a given solution. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Framework http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Software+framework So the description for the academic course page is more skeleton like which allowed integration with other various objects, and thus more framelike? Point out to me where I have gone wrong. Kat ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] webpatterns and patternquiz
I see a pattern forming. ;) We do love our definitions on this list. FWIW I think a framework is what we're after, which may just include links to real world solutions that are standards based. An awesome under-taking. I'd love to see it happen. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kat Sent: Tuesday, 20 December 2005 10:19 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] webpatterns and patternquiz In a nutshell, a pattern is a a problem which occurs over and over again . and . the core of the solution to that problem. When we build sites, unconsciously we use patterns all the time - it's just very little work has been done trying to capture and document them. That's what I've started http://webpatterns.org to do. I've started with site level patterns. I'm really interested in the thoughts of all developers about the patterns which we use, so if you have a moment please come along, and contribute your thoughts and experience Gday, Keep in mind I am just a student, but isn't something that describes it at site level more a framework rather than a pattern? From Wikipedia A design pattern isn't a finished design that can be transformed directly into code http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_%28computer_programming%29; it is a description or template for how to solve a problem that can be used in many different situations. . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_pattern_%28computer_science%29 Isn't a pattern usually a description of how to solve generic complex issues, such as dynamic binding? But an academic course page can't be used in a e-commerce store. It's quite specific for a particular area. Again from Wikipedia, a Framework can be considered as the processes and technologies used to solve a complex issue. It is the skeleton upon which various objects are integrated for a given solution. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Framework http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Software+framework So the description for the academic course page is more skeleton like which allowed integration with other various objects, and thus more framelike? Point out to me where I have gone wrong. Kat ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] webpatterns and patternquiz
When we build sites, unconsciously we use patterns all the time - it's just very little work has been done trying to capture and document them. dosnt ted drakes standardista rollyo search thingy sorta do this? -Kevin MacMahongail (pronounced macmonagle-sort of:) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] webpatterns and patternquiz
Richard, Martijn van Welie's been hacking away at something like this for a bit - check it out :o) http://www.welie.com/patterns/index.html indeed he has. I devote some space in the original webpatterns article to discussing the strengths and weaknesses of what Martijn has done. There are three shortcomings I see 1. its not collaborative and I feel the domain is too big, with too many specialties for one person to be able to develop a pattern language in this way 2. There is no real organizing principle - essentially it's a catalogue not a language. I'll be posting my outline for the structure of the webpattern language soon - its structured and hierarchical 3. It's not generative - it doesn't capture the interrelationships between patterns (complex patterns like sites are made up of others like pages, which in turn are made up page sub parts and so on). I do detail this in the original article, http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/2005/11/webpatterns_and.html thanks john John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher Web Essentials web development conference :: http://we05.com WebPatterns :: http://webpatterns.org ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] webpatterns and patternquiz
Richard, Actually, it would be great if we could have something like this which would form a 'toolkit' of sorts where we can take 'developer- authorised' code snippets and put them in our pages. Such as finally having a collection of code so we don't have to ask: What's the most semantic and valid way of marking up addresses? and such. that's certainly one of the aims of the project - but it is important to distinguish patterns from templates - a template is a one size fits all, use this bit of code to solve this problem approach that is often too inflexible to provide real world solutions. But, a standardised reusable semantics would be a great benefit to all which could come from this. I discuss this in my original article http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/2005/11/webpatterns_and.html This would save a lot of time, especially for CSS learners / new-to- standards folk. Semantically marked up Photo Gallery? Go to the Photo Gallery section and choose from sevral layouts, all given the thumbs up by CSS Samurais and such out there. Best way to do breadcrumbs (once and for all)? Sure check out the Navigation section. It would be very useful if it really captured the problem, and suggested solutions to aspects, along with a discussion of those solutions. Yes, people probably just want the code to paste in, and there would be examples which they could use in that way, but for more complex problems, as I have mentioned earlier, itss just not flexible enough, thanks for the thoughts, john etc... What do you think? R - Original Message - From: John Allsopp [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, December 19, 2005 2:34 PM Subject: [WSG] webpatterns and patternquiz Hi all, Some of you might have read my recent article, WebPatterns and WebSemantics http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/2005/11/webpatterns_and.html In a nutshell, a pattern is a a problem which occurs over and over again … and … the core of the solution to that problem. When we build sites, unconsciously we use patterns all the time - it's just very little work has been done trying to capture and document them. That's what I've started http://webpatterns.org to do. The first big step here is the PatternQuiz http://webpatterns.org/wordpress/?p=4 the aim of which is to explore existing patterns in web development. I've started with site level patterns. I'm really interested in the thoughts of all developers about the patterns which we use, so if you have a moment please come along, and contribute your thoughts and experience john John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] webpatterns and patternquiz
Paul, Love the idea. thanks I don't think it should be a replacement for many things which are best learnt through hard expereince, but rather a 7 steps to success guide for building a standards-based website. things should not be hard simply for the sake of it. We need to distinguish the set of skills and knowledge that professional developers really need as a foundation to the discipline of web development from stuff that just happens to be hard because we haven't worked it out yet. Sure, you could include best practice code samples, particularly for off-page techniques etc. But I don't think providing baby steps for every eventuality is the answer. That, in itself, has the potential for creating lazy beginners. Its not so much a matter of baby steps as a detailed understanding of the problems we find ourselves solving over and over again, coupled with suggested solutions. In order to use this effectively, developers will still need to have a great deal of understanding of what they are doing in technical and architectural domains. The fact that patterns are widely used in computer science and originated in Architecture suggests that they certainly don't make solving complex problems trivial, rather they help make the process more efficient, and hopefully give rise to better solutions in future Thanks again, john John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] webpatterns and patternquiz
Richard, I don't know, Sam... I mean, we're not forcing someone to use these patterns. But let's face it, they're patterns because lots of people use them. exactly. These patterns exist already. Its not about saying you should do these things in this way rather over time, when solving this kind of problem, the following conventions have emerged For example: previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 next look familiar? Google and almost every multi-page set of results uses this. I'd call it a convention. We're using the word 'pattern'. very nice example - there are actually two patterns here - a navigation strategy (how to allow users to conceive of and move around a set of information) and apage architecture pattern, how to present that strategy to the users. There might even be an interaction pattern lurking in there too if you look closely enough. What's the best way to mark this up? Well, I'd hazard a quess that this was an ordered list. But then there's those two at the beginning and end How are they best semantically marked up? And what CSS is best used to effectively display them? at this point, we get into suggested solutions. There is often going to be more than one common solution, (note again this is about capturing current practice, rather than dictating the one true way). The pattern captures these solutions, and discusses the pros and cons of using them. The developer still needs to make a choice in the context of their project, and then implement the pattern. What I'm saying is that instead of: a. trying to figure it out for yourself (which at the VERY best is time consuming), or b. Cut'n'pasting someone else's dodgey table-based code ... you could go to this site and, knowing that this is the Best Practice method, use that bit of code. I'd just pluralize Best Practices, and I think you've got agreat example here Hang on! Oh yeah, the standards community has already started doing something like this with hCard via MicroFormats, right? Thing is, I think the idea could be applied to more patterns. Yes, microformats are certainly patterns - what I term (for now) data patterns, by and large. WebPatterns are more general than µf, in part because the µf crew have specifically decided to focus on one aspect of patterns, at least for now. You never know, it might end continually re-occurring debates on mailing lists (like those I mentioned in my first post). or at least move them to a wiki :-) Thanks for the great ideas j John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] webpatterns and patternquiz
Kevin, dosnt ted drakes standardista rollyo search thingy sorta do this? I'd suggest rollyo is a great example of a framework, which of course uses existing search, page and page content patterns. john John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] webpatterns and patternquiz
Kat, Keep in mind I am just a student, of course then we'll discount everything you have to say by 40% :-) but isn't something that describes it at site level more a framework rather than a pattern? I'd say that the difference between a framework and a pattern is that a framework is a fully worked, reusable solution to a problem (or at least the foundations of one). As you'll know, but perhaps some of the readers of the list might not, the term is commonly used in object oriented programming to refer to a class library that can be used to build applications. Rails (of Ruby on Rails) is a framework for working with Ruby (a programming language). If we were to use the term framework, we'd be overloading the term in ways that are very confusing. From Wikipedia A design pattern isn't a finished design that can be transformed directly into code http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Code_%28computer_programming%29; it is a description or template for how to solve a problem that can be used in many different situations. . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_pattern_%28computer_science%29 Isn't a pattern usually a description of how to solve generic complex issues, such as dynamic binding? In the context of OOAD, yes. But suppose your problem is to have a frequently updated set of discrete messages, which users can subscribe to, to inform them of changes to the status of their account. It seems that while this is quite different from kottke.org, it fits the pattern of a blog. We coould legitimately call this a description or template for how to solve a problem that can be used in many different situations. BTW, I think the term template here is very tricky, overloading the concept of reusable code chunks, like DreamWeaver (or Style Master) templates. I recommend avoiding it like the plague in the discussion of patterns to avoid people understanding patterns in the same, very limited, sense. But an academic course page can't be used in a e-commerce store. It's quite specific for a particular area. So you have two patterns. But both of them might fall within a class of patterns, which in this case I call site patterns (that's because any pattern within the set shares some common aspects). There are other classes of pattern, and importantly types of patttern - architectural, navigation strategy, data and more. Again from Wikipedia, a Framework can be considered as the processes and technologies used to solve a complex issue. It is the skeleton upon which various objects are integrated for a given solution. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Framework http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Software+framework The problem is that this leaves out the aspect of frameworks that these processes and technologies are implemented in a programming language, typically as class libraries, top form the basis of new applications So the description for the academic course page is more skeleton like which allowed integration with other various objects, and thus more framelike? Point out to me where I have gone wrong. If you get the chance, follow up some of the articles in my original post about patterns. I feel that after some not inconsiderable time thinking about this problem domain, the pattern paradigm is appropriate, and could potentially be very important as web development matures into a fully fledged discipline. Thanks for the excellent thought provoking post. Straight to the top of the class :-) john John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] webpatterns and patternquiz
Hey John, I think you're right on both counts... Yes, in order for this to be effective the more professionals who contribute, the better it will be. And yes, absolutely, it's not about stating this is the ONLY way you can do this but presenting a set of choices. I look forward to seeing the next stage ;o) R - Original Message - From: John Allsopp [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2005 11:59 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] webpatterns and patternquiz Richard, I don't know, Sam... I mean, we're not forcing someone to use these patterns. But let's face it, they're patterns because lots of people use them. exactly. These patterns exist already. Its not about saying you should do these things in this way rather over time, when solving this kind of problem, the following conventions have emerged For example: previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 next look familiar? Google and almost every multi-page set of results uses this. I'd call it a convention. We're using the word 'pattern'. very nice example - there are actually two patterns here - a navigation strategy (how to allow users to conceive of and move around a set of information) and apage architecture pattern, how to present that strategy to the users. There might even be an interaction pattern lurking in there too if you look closely enough. What's the best way to mark this up? Well, I'd hazard a quess that this was an ordered list. But then there's those two at the beginning and end How are they best semantically marked up? And what CSS is best used to effectively display them? at this point, we get into suggested solutions. There is often going to be more than one common solution, (note again this is about capturing current practice, rather than dictating the one true way). The pattern captures these solutions, and discusses the pros and cons of using them. The developer still needs to make a choice in the context of their project, and then implement the pattern. What I'm saying is that instead of: a. trying to figure it out for yourself (which at the VERY best is time consuming), or b. Cut'n'pasting someone else's dodgey table-based code ... you could go to this site and, knowing that this is the Best Practice method, use that bit of code. I'd just pluralize Best Practices, and I think you've got agreat example here Hang on! Oh yeah, the standards community has already started doing something like this with hCard via MicroFormats, right? Thing is, I think the idea could be applied to more patterns. Yes, microformats are certainly patterns - what I term (for now) data patterns, by and large. WebPatterns are more general than µf, in part because the µf crew have specifically decided to focus on one aspect of patterns, at least for now. You never know, it might end continually re-occurring debates on mailing lists (like those I mentioned in my first post). or at least move them to a wiki :-) Thanks for the great ideas j John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] webpatterns and patternquiz
Hey John :o) Martijn van Welie's been hacking away at something like this for a bit - check it out :o) http://www.welie.com/patterns/index.html R - Original Message - From: John Allsopp [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, December 19, 2005 2:34 PM Subject: [WSG] webpatterns and patternquiz Hi all, Some of you might have read my recent article, WebPatterns and WebSemantics http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/2005/11/webpatterns_and.html In a nutshell, a pattern is a a problem which occurs over and over again … and … the core of the solution to that problem. When we build sites, unconsciously we use patterns all the time - it's just very little work has been done trying to capture and document them. That's what I've started http://webpatterns.org to do. The first big step here is the PatternQuiz http://webpatterns.org/wordpress/?p=4 the aim of which is to explore existing patterns in web development. I've started with site level patterns. I'm really interested in the thoughts of all developers about the patterns which we use, so if you have a moment please come along, and contribute your thoughts and experience john John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] webpatterns and patternquiz
Actually, it would be great if we could have something like this which would form a 'toolkit' of sorts where we can take 'developer-authorised' code snippets and put them in our pages. Such as finally having a collection of code so we don't have to ask: What's the most semantic and valid way of marking up addresses? and such. This would save a lot of time, especially for CSS learners / new-to-standards folk. Semantically marked up Photo Gallery? Go to the Photo Gallery section and choose from sevral layouts, all given the thumbs up by CSS Samurais and such out there. Best way to do breadcrumbs (once and for all)? Sure check out the Navigation section. etc... What do you think? R - Original Message - From: John Allsopp [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, December 19, 2005 2:34 PM Subject: [WSG] webpatterns and patternquiz Hi all, Some of you might have read my recent article, WebPatterns and WebSemantics http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/2005/11/webpatterns_and.html In a nutshell, a pattern is a a problem which occurs over and over again … and … the core of the solution to that problem. When we build sites, unconsciously we use patterns all the time - it's just very little work has been done trying to capture and document them. That's what I've started http://webpatterns.org to do. The first big step here is the PatternQuiz http://webpatterns.org/wordpress/?p=4 the aim of which is to explore existing patterns in web development. I've started with site level patterns. I'm really interested in the thoughts of all developers about the patterns which we use, so if you have a moment please come along, and contribute your thoughts and experience john John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] webpatterns and patternquiz
Love the idea. I don't think it should be a replacement for many things which are best learnt through hard expereince, but rather a 7 steps to success guide for building a standards-based website. Sure, you could include best practice code samples, particularly for off-page techniques etc. But I don't think providing baby steps for every eventuality is the answer. That, in itself, has the potential for creating lazy beginners. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richard Czeiger Sent: Monday, 19 December 2005 2:56 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] webpatterns and patternquiz Actually, it would be great if we could have something like this which would form a 'toolkit' of sorts where we can take 'developer-authorised' code snippets and put them in our pages. Such as finally having a collection of code so we don't have to ask: What's the most semantic and valid way of marking up addresses? and such. This would save a lot of time, especially for CSS learners / new-to-standards folk. Semantically marked up Photo Gallery? Go to the Photo Gallery section and choose from sevral layouts, all given the thumbs up by CSS Samurais and such out there. Best way to do breadcrumbs (once and for all)? Sure check out the Navigation section. etc... What do you think? R - Original Message - From: John Allsopp [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, December 19, 2005 2:34 PM Subject: [WSG] webpatterns and patternquiz Hi all, Some of you might have read my recent article, WebPatterns and WebSemantics http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/2005/11/webpatterns_and.html In a nutshell, a pattern is a a problem which occurs over and over again . and . the core of the solution to that problem. When we build sites, unconsciously we use patterns all the time - it's just very little work has been done trying to capture and document them. That's what I've started http://webpatterns.org to do. The first big step here is the PatternQuiz http://webpatterns.org/wordpress/?p=4 the aim of which is to explore existing patterns in web development. I've started with site level patterns. I'm really interested in the thoughts of all developers about the patterns which we use, so if you have a moment please come along, and contribute your thoughts and experience john John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] webpatterns and patternquiz
I think you'll find their are too many variables in a website to do this easily. Plus you'll never convince designers to stick to those set layouts :D Richard Czeiger wrote: Actually, it would be great if we could have something like this which would form a 'toolkit' of sorts where we can take 'developer-authorised' code snippets and put them in our pages. Such as finally having a collection of code so we don't have to ask: What's the most semantic and valid way of marking up addresses? and such. This would save a lot of time, especially for CSS learners / new-to-standards folk. Semantically marked up Photo Gallery? Go to the Photo Gallery section and choose from sevral layouts, all given the thumbs up by CSS Samurais and such out there. Best way to do breadcrumbs (once and for all)? Sure check out the Navigation section. etc... What do you think? R - Original Message - From: John Allsopp [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, December 19, 2005 2:34 PM Subject: [WSG] webpatterns and patternquiz Hi all, Some of you might have read my recent article, WebPatterns and WebSemantics http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/2005/11/webpatterns_and.html In a nutshell, a pattern is a a problem which occurs over and over again … and … the core of the solution to that problem. When we build sites, unconsciously we use patterns all the time - it's just very little work has been done trying to capture and document them. That's what I've started http://webpatterns.org to do. The first big step here is the PatternQuiz http://webpatterns.org/wordpress/?p=4 the aim of which is to explore existing patterns in web development. I've started with site level patterns. I'm really interested in the thoughts of all developers about the patterns which we use, so if you have a moment please come along, and contribute your thoughts and experience john John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] webpatterns and patternquiz
I don't know, Sam... I mean, we're not forcing someone to use these patterns. But let's face it, they're patterns because lots of people use them. For example: previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 next look familiar? Google and almost every multi-page set of results uses this. I'd call it a convention. We're using the word 'pattern'. What's the best way to mark this up? Well, I'd hazard a quess that this was an ordered list. But then there's those two at the beginning and end How are they best semantically marked up? And what CSS is best used to effectively display them? What I'm saying is that instead of: a. trying to figure it out for yourself (which at the VERY best is time consuming), or b. Cut'n'pasting someone else's dodgey table-based code ... you could go to this site and, knowing that this is the Best Practice method, use that bit of code. Hang on! Oh yeah, the standards community has already started doing something like this with hCard via MicroFormats, right? Thing is, I think the idea could be applied to more patterns. You never know, it might end continually re-occurring debates on mailing lists (like those I mentioned in my first post). - Original Message - From: Samuel Richardson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, December 19, 2005 3:01 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] webpatterns and patternquiz I think you'll find their are too many variables in a website to do this easily. Plus you'll never convince designers to stick to those set layouts :D ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
