Re: [WSG] AJAX and accesibility

2005-06-29 Thread Richard Czeiger

http://www.standards-schmandards.com/index.php?2005/03/01/16-ajax-and-accessibility

http://adactio.com/journal/display.php/20050308163812.xml

- Original Message - 
From: Maarten Stolte [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 5:55 PM
Subject: [WSG] AJAX and accesibility


Hello,

I'm trying to find out if there are any resources on AJAX and accesibility.
It seems to me that if I would employ AJAX technologies on my site to enable 
a richer application experience, I would still need to code for 
non-JavaScript useragents . I also think that with screenreaders, lots of 
AJAX tricks would be hard to parse, even if such a reader would have 
JavaScript.


Do these things hold true, and are there other things that I need to take 
into account?


regards,

Maarten Stolte


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Re: [WSG] AJAX and accesibility

2005-06-29 Thread James Denholm-Price
Check out Derek Featherstone's follow-up to his talk at @media for
some interesting viewpoints:
http://www.boxofchocolates.ca/archives/2005/06/12/javascript-and-accessibility#more-72

1. You probably always have to do the back end stuff anyway, even if
you can process lots of stuff that used to be back end on the client
using AJAX -- what if your most important visitor has JS disabled or
something (his firewall  mabe?) breaks AJAX?

2. Some screenreaders DO detect JS-driven changes to the DOM (e.g.
JAWS using IE) but I don't think it's definite what they see and what
they don't and as far as AJAX is concerned it's early days :-)

Just my 2p ... James

On 6/29/05, Maarten Stolte [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Hello,
 
 I'm trying to find out if there are any resources on AJAX and accesibility.
 It seems to me that if I would employ AJAX technologies on my site to enable 
 a richer application experience, I would still need to code for 
 non-JavaScript useragents . I also think that with screenreaders, lots of 
 AJAX tricks would be hard to parse, even if such a reader would have 
 JavaScript.
 
 Do these things hold true, and are there other things that I need to take 
 into account?
 
 regards,
 
 Maarten Stolte
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 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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Re: Re: [WSG] AJAX and accesibility

2005-06-29 Thread Maarten Stolte
Hi,

thanks for the replies, I'm reading the three articles now, and they seem very 
useful.

regards,

Maarten

-Original Message-
From: James Denholm-Price [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:21:01 +0100
Subject: Re: [WSG] AJAX and accesibility

Check out Derek Featherstone's follow-up to his talk at @media for
some interesting viewpoints:
http://www.boxofchocolates.ca/archives/2005/06/12/javascript-and-accessibility#more-72

1. You probably always have to do the back end stuff anyway, even if
you can process lots of stuff that used to be back end on the client
using AJAX -- what if your most important visitor has JS disabled or
something (his firewall  mabe?) breaks AJAX?

2. Some screenreaders DO detect JS-driven changes to the DOM (e.g.
JAWS using IE) but I don't think it's definite what they see and what
they don't and as far as AJAX is concerned it's early days :-)

Just my 2p ... James

On 6/29/05, Maarten Stolte [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Hello,
 
 I'm trying to find out if there are any resources on AJAX and accesibility.
 It seems to me that if I would employ AJAX technologies on my site to enable 
 a richer application experience, I would still need to code for 
 non-JavaScript useragents . I also think that with screenreaders, lots of 
 AJAX tricks would be hard to parse, even if such a reader would have 
 JavaScript.
 
 Do these things hold true, and are there other things that I need to take 
 into account?
 
 regards,
 
 Maarten Stolte
**
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 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
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RE: Re: [WSG] AJAX and accesibility

2005-06-29 Thread Drake, Ted C.
After reading this post, I began thinking that the solution may be to
seperate javascripts into basic and advanced sets. Just as we import
advanced style sheets to avoid confusing early browsers, perhaps we can set
an option to turn off advanced scripting. 

I could see the option acting much like a style sheet switcher that sets a
cookie disabling advance.js but allows basic.js to set cookies, etc. 

This would allow the screen-reading visitor to view my site better without
worrying about disabling functions in the next site by disabling javascript
globally. It also would allow us to provide core functions and disable the
layout based scripts.

Are there any JavaScript people on this list that could comment?

Ted



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Maarten Stolte
Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 2:51 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Cc: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: Re: [WSG] AJAX and accesibility

Hi,

thanks for the replies, I'm reading the three articles now, and they seem
very useful.

regards,

Maarten

-Original Message-
From: James Denholm-Price [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:21:01 +0100
Subject: Re: [WSG] AJAX and accesibility

Check out Derek Featherstone's follow-up to his talk at @media for
some interesting viewpoints:
http://www.boxofchocolates.ca/archives/2005/06/12/javascript-and-accessibili
ty#more-72

1. You probably always have to do the back end stuff anyway, even if
you can process lots of stuff that used to be back end on the client
using AJAX -- what if your most important visitor has JS disabled or
something (his firewall  mabe?) breaks AJAX?

2. Some screenreaders DO detect JS-driven changes to the DOM (e.g.
JAWS using IE) but I don't think it's definite what they see and what
they don't and as far as AJAX is concerned it's early days :-)

Just my 2p ... James

On 6/29/05, Maarten Stolte [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Hello,
 
 I'm trying to find out if there are any resources on AJAX and
accesibility.
 It seems to me that if I would employ AJAX technologies on my site to
enable a richer application experience, I would still need to code for
non-JavaScript useragents . I also think that with screenreaders, lots of
AJAX tricks would be hard to parse, even if such a reader would have
JavaScript.
 
 Do these things hold true, and are there other things that I need to take
into account?
 
 regards,
 
 Maarten Stolte
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
**




**
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 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
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 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
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RE: Re: [WSG] AJAX and accesibility

2005-06-29 Thread Derek Featherstone
On 6/29/05, Drake, Ted C.  wrote:

re:
http://www.boxofchocolates.ca/archives/2005/06/12/javascript-and-
accessibility
 
After reading this post, I began thinking that the solution may be to
seperate javascripts into basic and advanced sets. Just as we import
advanced style sheets to avoid confusing early browsers, perhaps we
can set an option to turn off advanced scripting. 

snip /

Are there any JavaScript people on this list that could comment?

As both a JavaScript and an accessibility person, I'll step in for a
moment.  We (the WaSP Accessibility Task Force) will be looking at all
possibilities in depth to determine what kind of scripting and
techniques are to be considered safe to be used with screen readers
and other assistive technology (we need best practices for dealing with
screen magnifiers as well, and need a better understanding of the
implications of AJAX type techniques for that group of people)

In principle, I don't see anything wrong with a layered approach to
JavaScript, much in the same way we layer style sheets. Once we better
understand the finer points of the interaction between JavaScript and
screen readers (for example), we could in theory determine which things
will be safe, and then allow a preferences page to turn off specific
portions of the JavaScript.

I like your idea of allowing the user to turn off and on portions of the
JavaScript via preferences - I don't usually advocate this approach on
its own, but in this case, though, it is likely that if they disable JS
completely, other sites will stop working as expected. Yes, I know - too
bad for the other sites because it is their own fault in the first
place. Erring on the side of caution though, a scripting preferences
might be useful and less likely to cause other problems.

There are a couple of tricky points that we'd need to sort out -
directing people to preferences to make the change, ensuring that it is
well explained without being too techie, and to avoid having too many
options - in my opinion, it needs to be limited to all scripting,
core only, and no scripting options - otherwise it gets too difficult
to understand.

Hope this helps - there are parts I'm being deliberately vague about as
the Task Force is only just getting started and we have a lot of work to
do... Please be reassured that we are looking at this very seriously
with a very talented group of people, and hopefully we'll be making some
good progress soon.

Best regards,
Derek.
-- 
Derek Featherstone   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
tel: 613-599-9784  1-866-932-4878 (toll-free in North America)
Web Development: http://www.furtherahead.com
Personal:http://www.boxofchocolates.ca
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