Re: [WSG] Careers in web standards

2004-11-25 Thread Henry Tapia
Forgive me if I am mistaken, but isn't Accessibility one of the cornerstones of the whole concept of Web Standards? Thus, you can have Accessibility, and be an Accessibility specialist, without Standards (as unlikely as that might be), but you cannot profess Standards expertise without having

Re: [WSG] Careers in web standards

2004-11-25 Thread Vicki Berry
My previous employer has advertised for someone to fill my old job and apparently it's not looking hopeful. They want someone who can hit the ground running but I think it really is a case of what Kay was saying - you have to expect to train people. But the job description was based around my

[WSG] It's so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and Firefox as a sales argument.

2004-11-25 Thread Kristof Rutten
Hi All, I don't know if you guys experience the same anoying and frustrating talks when it comes to convince a prospect/client of the fact his/her site isn't working for most of the world. -- The fact that it's not build following certain standards, the fact Google is like a blind,

RE: [WSG] It's so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and Firefox as a sales argument.

2004-11-25 Thread Brett Walsh
Searching for s2store in google returns it as the first result? From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kristof Rutten Sent: Thursday, 25 November 2004 8:26 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] It's so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and

Re: [WSG] It's so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and Firefox as a sales argument.

2004-11-25 Thread Andy Budd
Kristof Rutten wrote: How do you convince your client to spend a little more on the design, the coding and the usability  when the most simple logic doesn't work ? Remember that most clients don't care a jot about accessibility and web standards. Sell them on the business benefits. However if

RE: [WSG] It's so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and Firefox as a sales argument.

2004-11-25 Thread Kristof Rutten
Yeah, OK. But nothing more. Just the flash items. Not a single product on his site. The prospect is a large sound light reseller. He needs to make a living out of DJ's, Clubs, .. Try to search for one of his specifics on google. Don't you think it's odd that a site with a gazillion

Re: [WSG] It's so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and Firefox as a sales argument.

2004-11-25 Thread john
As I'm just now starting to use web standards in my business, and haven't had to yet make the sales pitch, these are just some random thoughts. Why would we have to sell the idea of web standards? Why not just use them? Sell your services like usual, and use all the tools you know to create

Re: [WSG] Sometimes you just cant help people ...

2004-11-25 Thread Andy Budd
Screenreaders have loads of useful features built in like the ability to bring up a list of all the headings on a page and then jump to that heading. However the vast majority of screenreader users don't use these advanced features. The same goes with websites. Just because you add things in

RE: [WSG] It's so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and Firefox as a sales argument.

2004-11-25 Thread Kristof Rutten
I totally agree. But then it comes to budget. And your clients ASKS why your offer is quoted higher. Then you have the explaining to do. It seems like reason isn't among most of the buyers lately ;) Or is this just Belgium... .K -Original Message- From: john [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

[WSG] Learning to design Accessibility

2004-11-25 Thread Tim Burgan
Hi, I've done freelance work using standards for a few years, but now due to study I'm looking to get some casual web design work in Adelaide. I know and use standards, and I understand the need for accessibility, but I don't know how or what need to be implemented to meet accessibility needs.

Re: [WSG] It's so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and Firefox as a sales argument.

2004-11-25 Thread Manuel González Noriega
On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 11:06:51 +0100, Kristof Rutten [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I totally agree. But then it comes to budget. And your clients ASKS why your offer is quoted higher. Then you have the explaining to do. I don't really get why your quote should be higher and don't really like that

Re: [WSG] Mac IE (and Safari, too) testing on a PC and emulator info.

2004-11-25 Thread Dejan Kozina
I have Basilisk installed, but it is of no use for web page testing, as PPC applications do not run on it, no matter the OS version: the most modern browsers I found in 68k version are IE 4.0, Netscape 4.05 and iCab 2.95. Until I find the time to install PearPC, I try to simulate Safari

RE: [WSG] It's so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and Firefox as a sales argument.

2004-11-25 Thread Bert Doorn
It's also frustrating to get emails with microscopic text (accessibility issue). Text/plain please? As far as your dilemma goes - don't lower your standards (pun intended) for the sake of getting work. If you can't convince them, let them go. Maybe they will come back when the site they get

Re: [WSG] It's so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and Firefox as a sales argument.

2004-11-25 Thread john
I'm not sure I understand why it would cost more to use web standards. Even if it did on the design and build, it would surely even out once maintenance costs were factored in. ~john _ Dr. Zeus Web Development http://www.DrZeus.net content without clutter on 11/25/2004

Re: [WSG] Learning to design Accessibility

2004-11-25 Thread john
http://www.w3.org/WAI/ ~john _ Dr. Zeus Web Development http://www.DrZeus.net content without clutter on 11/25/2004 10:11 AM Tim Burgan said the following: Hi, I've done freelance work using standards for a few years, but now due to study I'm looking to get some casual

Re: [WSG] It's so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and Firefox as a sales argument.

2004-11-25 Thread john
on 11/25/2004 10:18 AM Bert Doorn said the following: It's also frustrating to get emails with microscopic text... heh...I didn't notice that myself, since I have HTML turned off in Thunderbird. ~john _ Dr. Zeus Web Development http://www.DrZeus.net content without

RE: [WSG] It's so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and Firefox as a sales argument.

2004-11-25 Thread Lea de Groot
On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 20:40:10 +1100, Brett Walsh wrote: Searching for s2store in google returns it as the first result.? No, the point is that there are no descriptions to entice the searcher to click on that link and that of the many, many pages on the site (have a look - its a fair sized

Re: [WSG] Mac IE (and Safari, too) testing on a PC and emulator info.

2004-11-25 Thread Nick Gleitzman
On 25 Nov 2004, at 5:48 PM, Mordechai Peller wrote: As the only proper way to test to to actually run the software (screen shots don't help much with JavaScript), and while any standards based code which works properly in Firefox stands a good chance of also working in Safari, IE, on the other

RE: [WSG] Learning to design Accessibility

2004-11-25 Thread David McDonald
Try the W3C as a good starting point: http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/ http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10/ http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10/full-checklist.html http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-TECHS/ Regards, David McDonald Web Designer http://www.davidmcdonald.org Southbank, Melbourne Australia

Re: [WSG] Learning to design Accessibility

2004-11-25 Thread Johannes Reiss
Hi, == in English e.g.: http://www.gawds.org/ http://www.washington.edu/doit/Resources/accessweb.html http://www.cwrl.utexas.edu/currents/spring02/slatin.html http://www.barrierfree.ca/index.htm - Original Message - From: Tim Burgan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [WSG] Web Standards Group

Re: [WSG] Learning to design Accessibility

2004-11-25 Thread Johannes Reiss
and also: http://www.webaim.org/ and general: http://aware.hwg.org/sites/ greetings johannes - Original Message - From: Tim Burgan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [WSG] Web Standards Group [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2004 11:11 AM Subject: [WSG] Learning to design

RE: [WSG] Learning to design Accessibility

2004-11-25 Thread Patrick Lauke
http://diveintoaccessibility.org/ gives you a good little overview. Patrick H. Lauke -Original Message- From: Tim Burgan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 25 November 2004 10:11 To: [WSG] Web Standards Group Subject: [WSG] Learning to design Accessibility Hi, I've done

Re: [WSG] Learning to design Accessibility

2004-11-25 Thread Tim Burgan
This is brilliant! Thanks for the kick-start everyone. Tim -- Tim Burgan. Website Development Graphic Design E [EMAIL PROTECTED] W www.timburgan.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See

Re: [WSG] It's so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and Firefox as a sales argument.

2004-11-25 Thread Andy Budd
john wrote: I'm not sure I understand why it would cost more to use web standards. Even if it did on the design and build, it would surely even out once maintenance costs were factored in. The problem isn't web standards or not web standards, the problem seems to be quality vs cost. If you do

Re: [WSG] User Interface Design Standards Template

2004-11-25 Thread Mark Lynch
Some useful links for general UI Design: http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/hig/1.0/index.html http://developer.apple.com/techpubs/macosx/Essentials/AquaHIGuidelines/ http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/en-us/dnwue/html/welcome.asp I haven't taken the time (yet) to go through some of these to

[WSG] Adobe Forum comment on CSS in visual editors

2004-11-25 Thread Marilyn Langfeld
I was looking through the Adobe GoLive forum and came across this comment, which I thought would be of interest. I'm not trying to provoke a response here, but I think it's important to hear the perspective of an employee at Adobe who often helps people with CSS questions on their forum. And since

Re: [WSG] Adobe Forum comment on CSS in visual editors

2004-11-25 Thread Manuel González Noriega
Ron, it is clear to me that the individuals who designed this application were/are not hard core CSS scripters. Sorry, but there is a counter-argument here. It is clear to me that the people who designed the CSS standard were entirely unconcerned about how it might ever

RE: [WSG] Learning to design Accessibility

2004-11-25 Thread Mike Foskett
I've just finished some interactive tutorials for content developers which may be of use. It only covers the basics but does get the point across (I think). http://www.websemantics.co.uk/workshop/sessions/session2/ Also you might need greater detail on forms:

Re: [WSG] It's so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and Firefox as a sales argument.

2004-11-25 Thread Mordechai Peller
Bert Doorn wrote: It's also frustrating to get emails with microscopic text (accessibility issue). Text/plain please? Both Thunderbird and Firefox allow you to set the minimum font size. Accessibility fighting back! As far as your dilemma goes - don't lower your standards (pun intended) for

[WSG] Link definition

2004-11-25 Thread The Man With His Guide Dog At The Tent Store
All this taalk about web standards got me thinking about the underling of links. As I understand it is that a person can turn on or off the underlineing of links via there browser options. If a person turns off the underlineing of links how would a web designer highlight a link? Is the

Re: [WSG] Adobe Forum comment on CSS in visual editors

2004-11-25 Thread Andrew Thompson
The point is only valid within their (Adobe's) current mode of thinking - that Style Sheets are created on the fly as designers muck about trying things within the visual editor, saving as they go. It may be done, but surely the only way to design is to produce your designs off-line, produce

Re: [WSG] Link definition

2004-11-25 Thread Patrick H. Lauke
The Man With His Guide Dog At The Tent Store wrote: All this taalk about web standards got me thinking about the underling of links. As I understand it is that a person can turn on or off the underlineing of links via there browser options. If a person turns off the underlineing of links how

Re: [WSG] Link definition

2004-11-25 Thread russ - maxdesign
And yes, I'd say it's common knowledge with (sighted) users that an underline signifies a link. That's why it's not recommended to use underlined styles for other texts. Of course, underlines are not the only clue as to what is and isn't a link. In most cases, it depends on context. E.g. in a

Re: [WSG] Adobe Forum comment on CSS in visual editors

2004-11-25 Thread Big John
This certainly is an interesting take from inside the Adobe mentality. Sorry, but there is a counter-argument here. It is clear to me that the people who designed the CSS standard were entirely unconcerned about how it might ever be handled by visual editors, since none of them actually

Re: [WSG] It's so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and Firefox as a sales argument.

2004-11-25 Thread Terrence Wood
Warning my response is long and perhaps rambles a bit -- there are the beginnings of some nice ideas but it's lacking polish - I'm tired. When I pitch for a site I don't talk about web standards and accessibility per se - these are just methodologies I use to deliver results. Web standards and

Re: [WSG] It's so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and Firefox as a sales argument.

2004-11-25 Thread Patrick H. Lauke
Terrence Wood wrote: When I pitch for a site I don't talk about web standards and accessibility per se - these are just methodologies I use to deliver results. Web standards and accessibility are invisible to the untrained eye. I always liken this to something like the construction industry: if

Re: [WSG] It's so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and Firefox as a sales argument.

2004-11-25 Thread Terrence Wood
Patrick you are right -- in and of itself flash satay doesn't improve accessibility. But using the object tag properly does - which is what the satay method uses (I use a variation with IE comments). Example (accessible image map, but same principles apply):

Re: [WSG] Learning to design Accessibility

2004-11-25 Thread Laura Carlson
Is there a resource that's available that is able to fill the gaps in my knowledge regarding accessibility? You might want to try: http://www.d.umn.edu/goto/accessibility Laura ___ Laura L. Carlson Information Technology Systems and Services University of

[WSG] Discussion Threading

2004-11-25 Thread Jixor - Stephen I
Are there any mail clients that will automatically thread discussions? I use news groups regularly and comparatively the discussion list is very annoying and cumbersome. Cheers. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See

Re: [WSG] Discussion Threading

2004-11-25 Thread Jeffery Fernandez
Jixor - Stephen I wrote: Are there any mail clients that will automatically thread discussions? I use news groups regularly and comparatively the discussion list is very annoying and cumbersome. Cheers. ** The discussion list for

RE: [WSG] Applications that don't open in a new window

2004-11-25 Thread David McDonald
There is no need to open a new window in this case, in fact opening a new window for the reason so that the user can't use the back button is just lazy programming. The form pages should hold the users information, and be able to maintain state if the user goes backward and submits again. This

Re: [WSG] Discussion Threading

2004-11-25 Thread Matt McCallum
Hi Stephen, Its still in Beta, but Google Gmail handles discussion threading really well. I subscribe to all of my lists (including this one) with my Gmail account, and keep it separate from my personal and business mail which gets delivered to my mail client. Also you can keep all of the

Re: [WSG] Discussion Threading

2004-11-25 Thread Matt McCallum
I meant Thunderbird! sorry On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 14:26:16 +1100, Matt McCallum [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Stephen, Its still in Beta, but Google Gmail handles discussion threading really well. I subscribe to all of my lists (including this one) with my Gmail account, and keep it

Re: [WSG] Discussion Threading

2004-11-25 Thread Tim Shortt
Jixor - Stephen I wrote: Are there any mail clients that will automatically thread discussions? I use news groups regularly and comparatively the discussion list is very annoying and cumbersome. Mozilla Thunderbird. View Sort by Threaded Note: When somebody doesn't 'Reply to' a post (meaning,

RE: [WSG] Applications that don't open in a new window

2004-11-25 Thread John Horner
I agree with David. Your PHP guy is simply mistaken. Or, to be charitable, he has failed to get across whatever point he wanted to make. I can't see why opening a new window makes any difference at all. And if it's absolutely crucial that people don't use the back button, what's wrong with

Re: [WSG] Applications that don't open in a new window

2004-11-25 Thread Terrence Wood
Gosh, I just had some email rage, y'know like road rage but about this email. edit expletives about the backend person Forms, database connections, cookies, and sessions, have nothing to do windows, and I suggest your backend coder does know what he is doing if he needs a new window to make

Re: [WSG] It's so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and Firefox as a sales argument.

2004-11-25 Thread Chris Stratford
Something I think you all are missing is that you have taken time to learn about standards and accessibility. I think I can charge more for my services because I have more knowledge about standards. So for me the price may be more expensive - but they are paying for my knowledege and experience

Re: [WSG] Discussion Threading

2004-11-25 Thread Kay Smoljak
On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 14:04:34 +1100, Jixor - Stephen I [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Are there any mail clients that will automatically thread discussions? I use news groups regularly and comparatively the discussion list is very annoying and cumbersome. Although it's not trendy to mention it,

RE: [WSG] Applications that don't open in a new window

2004-11-25 Thread Hill, Tim
C: Alt and left arrow key (works for forward with right arrow key as well) Tim Hill Computer Associates Graphic Artist tel: +612 9937 0792 fax: +612 9937 0546 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cameron Adams Sent:

Re: [WSG] Applications that don't open in a new window

2004-11-25 Thread russ - maxdesign
Opening a window without navigation elements doesn't actually stop you from going back in the browser's history. You can either: A. Hit the backspace button to go back B. Right-click and choose back This is all when and good, but many users are still only just getting the concept of

Re: [WSG] It's so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and Firefox as a sales argument.

2004-11-25 Thread Terrence Wood
Yes, that is a good point, and is what I was getting at earlier: you really need to tell the story of why your 'expensive' design is so much better than you competitors cheap design There is a joke (loosely paraphrased) about the plumber kicking a pipe and charges $100 for it. When the bill is

Re: [WSG] It's so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and Firefox as a sales argument.

2004-11-25 Thread Nick Lo
What you are really getting at is not so much that you charge more because you know about building accessible standards based websites but because your experience is broader. For example you can say ...and because the site is built this way it has such and such benefits to vision impaired

Re: [WSG] Discussion Threading

2004-11-25 Thread Sam - SS29
Thunderbird allows this to be clicked on / off Jixor - Stephen I wrote: Are there any mail clients that will automatically thread discussions? I use news groups regularly and comparatively the discussion list is very annoying and cumbersome. Cheers.

Re: [WSG] Adobe Forum comment on CSS in visual editors

2004-11-25 Thread Czeslaw Liebert
I am a bit amazed with Adobe's approach to this matter; i even hope that it was this technical man's personal opinion on the subject. Why? The DW team is constantly trying to make their product compatible with web standards - the WaSP group is encouraging them to do so

Re: [WSG] Applications that don't open in a new window

2004-11-25 Thread Nick Lo
Hi Priscilla, I develop in PHP (though the actual language is fairly irrelevant) and based on what you say it sounds like a fingers crossed approach to the problem. Not knowing the perspective of your developer I cannot say whether he is wrong or right, but I can say with absolute certainty

[WSG] modify styles for smaller screen resolutions

2004-11-25 Thread Cade Whitbourn
Hi, I'm experimenting with using javascript to write in alternate style information into the body of my webpages, similar to the current www.smh.com.au method (view source and scroll down to immediately inside body). The method seems to work fine, but I am wondering about the pros/cons of doing

[WSG] Stop Breaking my code!

2004-11-25 Thread braddles
Hi all, This is probably not the forum for such things, and if not, my apologies, but...I've been slaving away on a C# project in MS Visual Studio .NET (2002) and have spent a good couple of hours trying to find out a way to stop the blasted thing from ruining my lovely XHTML1.0 Strict code! I

Re: [WSG] Discussion Threading

2004-11-25 Thread Jixor - Stephen I
I of course already use it I just didn't know it had this feature, slightly annoying. Thanks! Jeffery Fernandez wrote: Jixor - Stephen I wrote: Are there any mail clients that will automatically thread discussions? I use news groups regularly and comparatively the discussion list is very

[WSG] Explain why div isnt contained

2004-11-25 Thread Adam Hough
Link to my problem page (http://dampsponge.com/layout/layout1.htm) I want to understand containing boxes and why some child boxes don't push their parent down the page. I have a div in this page called; #container border: 1px solid #000; background: url(purlpeimage.jpg) repeat-y right;) this

Re: [WSG] Stop Breaking my code!

2004-11-25 Thread Francesco
In VS.NET, under Tools...Options...Text Editor...C#... uncheck the box for Automatically format completed constructs and pasted source Also, make sure your checkboxes under Tools...Options...HTML Designer... are all set to HTML View. Let me know if that helps. Francesco On Fri, 26 Nov

Re: [WSG] Adobe Forum comment on CSS in visual editors

2004-11-25 Thread Sam - SS29
As far as I see Adobe is not to bothered with webstandards, Macromedia see standard compliance as a string to DW bow. The adobe site is based old skool web design, surface looks nice but underneth its ugly. I gather that since adobe is renowned and respected for design orientated products

Re: [WSG] Stop Breaking my code! - ADMIN

2004-11-25 Thread russ - maxdesign
ADMIN Hi all, This is probably not the forum for such things, and if not, my apologies, but...I've been slaving away on a C# project in MS Visual Studio .NET (2002) and have spent a good couple of hours trying to find out a way to stop the blasted thing from ruining my lovely XHTML1.0

Re: [WSG] Explain why div isnt contained

2004-11-25 Thread Sam - SS29
I asked the same issue a few days ago, the answer is on the following page Mordechai Peller advised me to read the following Another thing to check out http://positioniseverything.net/easyclearing.html I read it, and decided to adopt a work around since I found the syntax of the various hacks

Re: [WSG] It's so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and Firefox as a sales argument.

2004-11-25 Thread Rick Faaberg
On 11/25/04 7:00 PM Jixor - Stephen I [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent this out: To be honest I don't understand how building using standards could cost more unless you simply don't know what your doing. Its really as simple as that, there is no extra work involved in using standards, if anything its

Re: [WSG] It's so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and Firefox as a sales argument.

2004-11-25 Thread Vicki Berry
I rarely even mention web standards to clients anymore unless they are govt or govt agencies. I agree that as someone paying a builder to build a house for me, I don't need to know the pros and cons of a certain type of mortar - just do the job and do it so it gets me the result I want! My pitch