Re: [WSG] 3 column layout - centre column forced below side columns in IE at low resolution

2006-02-09 Thread Nick Cowie
I would of suggested wrapping a div with float: left around #sidebar_a and #content so when worse came to worse you forced #sidebar_b below the main content.However, that would require a major change in your source code. And seeing your are already using conditional comments to serve a .htc

Re: [WSG] HTML, XML what's the difference.

2006-02-09 Thread Stephen Stagg
Ok, one last try. My thoughts have little to do with semantics. Semantics are based on standards and languages, and therefore if HTML were dropped, something would HAVE to be introduced to replace it. However, like the hCard format, trying to break the HTML structure to add semantics to

[WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-09 Thread Marilyn Langfeld
I just read about this on another list. I thought others might be interested. Target is a large, stylish but also discount, retailer in the US. This should be a big case for web accessibility. __ Blind Cal student sues Target. Suit charges retailer's Web site cannot be used by the

RE: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-09 Thread Ted Drake
This has the potential for making some positive improvements in the commercial web sphere. Target is not blind to good design. Their new prescription bottles have been hailed as one of the best designs of the last decade (I think they were designed by a graduate student before Target purchased

Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-09 Thread Al Sparber
From: Ted Drake [EMAIL PROTECTED] This has the potential for making some positive improvements in the commercial web sphere. Target is not blind to good design. Their new prescription bottles have been hailed as one of the best designs of the last decade (I think they were designed by a

Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-09 Thread Al Sparber
From: Joseph R. B. Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] The only thing I don't understand is how on earth does a blind person pick out items that rely on a photograph (clothes etc)... If you go to Target's home page, you will find, in the left column what appear to be headlines describing sale and

Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-09 Thread Leslie Riggs
The only thing I don't understand is how on earth does a blind person pick out items that rely on a photograph (clothes etc)... If you go to Target's home page, you will find, in the left column what appear to be headlines describing sale and special items. They are images - and there is

RE: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-09 Thread Nic
Dennis, thanks for that link, an interesting opinion, and one that flies in the face of several court cases throughout the US (in particular Florida a few years ago) The New York State Attorney General offered a legal opinion that all web site originating within that state are subject to

Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-09 Thread Minh D. Tran
So I have a question, so even if it's Alt Text, how would a blind person even see to read?Al Sparber [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: "Joseph R. B. Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> The only thing I don't understand is how on earth does a blind person pick out items that rely on a photograph (clothes

Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-09 Thread Rickshaw Driver
Alt text is read aloud be a screen reader for those who have sight disabilities I believe. Minh D. Tran wrote: So I have a question, so even if it's Alt Text, how would a blind person even see to read? Al Sparber [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: "Joseph R. B. Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-09 Thread Al Sparber
From: Minh D. Tran [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2006 2:32 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site So I have a question, so even if it's Alt Text, how would a blind person even see to read? - It's read

Re: [WSG] cool FAQ page [follow up]

2006-02-09 Thread Terrence Wood
Thierry Koblentz said: Are you saying that you disagree with my interpretation of these articles or that I am plain wrong? Both. You have misinterpreted the articles, and have formed an opinion based on that misintrepretation. Further, you are defending your opinion by simply being contrary and

Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-09 Thread Donna Jones
Blind Cal student sues Target. Suit charges retailer's Web site cannot be used by the sightless. ... What I hope is that Target and other online merchants will realize how important it is to reach 1.3 million people in this nation and the growing baby-boomer population who will also be

Re: [WSG] cool FAQ page [follow up]

2006-02-09 Thread Al Sparber
From: Terrence Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] It seems that for the author the bottom line is *consistency* Consistency *is* the bottom line for usability. I have never disputed that. Nielsen also says use platform conventions. Creating a list of links to resources within a page is a convention for

Re: [WSG] cool FAQ page [follow up]

2006-02-09 Thread Terrence Wood
Al Sparber: Very distracting Are you talking about when there is just the list of links is first and you must scroll to get the first screen of content? - even more so when there are mixed links some scroll to another point, others load new documents. Agreed. This is really about consistency

Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-09 Thread russ - maxdesign
So I have a question, so even if it's Alt Text, how would a blind person even see to read? Minh, Apart from screen readers that others have mentioned, there are also devices such as refreshable braille devices, which transfer text into braille: http://www.flickr.com/photos/russweakley/58957885/

Re: [WSG] cool FAQ page [follow up]

2006-02-09 Thread Paul Novitski
At 12:22 PM 2/9/2006, Al Sparber wrote: Getting away from the FAQ thing to links within documents, I find that sort of navigation almost as annoying as popup windows. It might very well be a convention, but I do consider it a negative for usability. Very distracting - even more so when there

Re: [WSG] cool FAQ page [follow up]

2006-02-09 Thread Al Sparber
From: Terrence Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] Al Sparber: Very distracting Are you talking about when there is just the list of links is first and you must scroll to get the first screen of content? For me, it's any link that scrolls the page. I'm old enough to get disoriented, I guess. The

Re: [WSG] cool FAQ page [follow up]

2006-02-09 Thread Thierry Koblentz
Terrence Wood wrote: Thierry Koblentz said: Are you saying that you disagree with my interpretation of these articles or that I am plain wrong? Both. You have misinterpreted the articles, and have formed an opinion based on that misintrepretation. I disagree. Further, you are defending

Re: [WSG] cool FAQ page [follow up]

2006-02-09 Thread Thierry Koblentz
Terrence Wood wrote: Thierry Koblentz said: Are you saying that you disagree with my interpretation of these articles or that I am plain wrong? Both. You have misinterpreted the articles, and have formed an opinion based on that misintrepretation. I disagree. Further, you are defending

[WSG] Today's lesson: Respect - be courteous up or leave

2006-02-09 Thread russ - maxdesign
I want to talk today about respect. For those of you who have not heard of this concept, respect is sometimes defined as courteous regard for people's feelings. When you reply to a post on the list, you should at all times try to do so with respect. Everyone on this list is entitled to their own

Re: [WSG] cool FAQ page [follow up]

2006-02-09 Thread Al Sparber
From: Paul Novitski [EMAIL PROTECTED] If a web designer further distinguished between links that jump within a page vs. those that load a new page, would that obviate your objection? It would mitigate it. I find it easier to tolerate a FAQ or Q/A thing if it's apparent that all of the

Re: [WSG] cool FAQ page [follow up]

2006-02-09 Thread Jay Gilmore
Hey Tierry and Terrance, This is a respectful suggestion. Since Jakob Nielsen is not dead and Useit.com is not the King James Bible, Talmud, Torah, Quaran etc., why not email him and get his opinion on this. In fact, I asked his opinion on this recent adlinks phenomena just today, where

Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-09 Thread Minh D. Tran
thanks Russruss - maxdesign [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So I have a question, so even if it's Alt Text, how would a blind person even see to read?Minh,Apart from screen readers that others have mentioned, there are also devicessuch as refreshable braille devices, which transfer text into

Re: [WSG] cool FAQ page [follow up]

2006-02-09 Thread Terrence Wood
Thierry Koblentz said: Both. You have misinterpreted the articles, and have formed an opinion based on that misintrepretation. I disagree. So you keep saying, but your actions are different. you use skip links on your site but are argueing here that every link must load an entirely new

Re: [WSG] Today's lesson: Respect - be courteous up or leave

2006-02-09 Thread Mark Harris
russ - maxdesign wrote: Russ Miss Manors I respectfully would like to point out that Miss Manners may be more to the point. However, Russ, you are perfectly capable of representing big houses, it that's what floats your boat ;-) Cheers Mark Harris Technology Research and Consultancy

[WSG] IE7 Compatibility Team

2006-02-09 Thread Cade Whitbourn
Wow. Microsoft are taking very pro-active measures to assist the developer community in fixing sites for IE7. I received an email from someone on the 'IE7 compatibility team' with a screenshot of our site in IE7 and a list of all our stylesheets with all the filters and hacks identified that we

RE: [WSG] IE7 Compatibility Team

2006-02-09 Thread kvnmcwebn
Have other site owners received any similar contact from the IE7CPTTM yet? no can you share yours? best kvnmcwebn ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints

Re: [WSG] IE7 Compatibility Team

2006-02-09 Thread Nick Gleitzman
On 10 Feb 2006, at 10:49 AM, Cade Whitbourn wrote: Wow. Microsoft are taking very pro-active measures to assist the developer community in fixing sites for IE7. I received an email from someone on the 'IE7 compatibility team' with a screenshot of our site in IE7 and a list of all our

Re: [WSG] Today's lesson: 'Respect' - be courteous up or leave

2006-02-09 Thread Gregory Alan Gross
If cyberspace forums and message boards are the standard of measure, then common courtesy is anything but common anymore. The ability to put both distance and anonymity between one's self and someone else opens the way for people to say things they wouldn't dare say to someone's face. Sometimes,

RE: [WSG] IE7 Compatibility Team

2006-02-09 Thread Geoff Pack
Cade Whitbourn wrote: Wow. Microsoft are taking very pro-active measures to assist the developer community in fixing sites for IE7. I received an email from someone on the 'IE7 compatibility team' with a screenshot of our site in IE7 and a list of all our stylesheets with all the

Re: [WSG] IE7 Compatibility Team

2006-02-09 Thread Alastair Steel
Why would you hack standards compliant code for Microsoft. Ask if they would like to foot the bill or if they had considered writing an application that was standards compliant. Forget that as it may not have all the bugs and vulnerabilities that we have come to know and love. Yours

Re: Edit: Re: [WSG] [Please don't flame :)] HTML, XML what's the difference.

2006-02-09 Thread Patrick H. Lauke
Stephen Stagg wrote: I understand that this is already possible in most modern browsers but it will never be used or properly implemented unless HTML is dropped as a language. Worried about screen-readers? I don't see why, the screen-readers would have to parse the CSS to find clues about

Re: [WSG] Today's lesson: Respect - be courteous up or leave

2006-02-09 Thread Jon Tan
Russ, that was beautiful. The gentle sarcasm brought a tear of mirth to my eye. ta. lol. russ - maxdesign wrote: I want to talk today about respect. For those of you who have not heard of this concept, respect is sometimes defined as courteous regard for people's feelings. When you reply to

Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-09 Thread Angus at InfoForce Services
As a blind web site designer who has his alt tag reading protion of his screen reading software. I would say their should be both images and a text description. I have come across many fully sighted (20/20 Vision( persons that have difficulty with even the simplest images. I like to provide a

Re: [WSG] cool FAQ page [follow up]

2006-02-09 Thread Thierry Koblentz
Terrence Wood wrote: Thierry Koblentz said: Both. You have misinterpreted the articles, and have formed an opinion based on that misintrepretation. I disagree. So you keep saying, but your actions are different. I'm not sure I agree with that. Please see the bottom of this message. you use

Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-09 Thread Patrick H. Lauke
Angus at InfoForce Services wrote: As a blind web site designer who has his alt tag reading protion of his screen reading software. I would say their should be both images and a text description. I have come across many fully sighted (20/20 Vision( persons that have difficulty with even the

RE: [WSG] IE7 Compatibility Team

2006-02-09 Thread Cade Whitbourn
To clarify just a little more: The purpose of their email to us was to make us aware of a 'compatibility' issue that our site has with the beta preview of IE7. The compatibility issue is caused by our use of CSS filters. They specificially highlight our use of Star HTML Hack, Selector HTML Hack

Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-09 Thread Angus at InfoForce Services
Patrick which uses display:none and can't be shown without javascript, among other things) Most people have JAVAScript turned off, so I started to learn PHP. Angus MacKinnon MacKinnon Crest Saying Latin - Audentes Fortuna Juvat English - Fortune Assists The Daring Web page

Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-09 Thread Lachlan Hunt
Angus at InfoForce Services wrote: Most people have JAVAScript turned off, According to what statistics? I think you'll find most people actually have it turned on. -- Lachlan Hunt http://lachy.id.au/ ** The discussion list for

[WSG] Download line in .htaccess

2006-02-09 Thread Angus at InfoForce Services
I do not know if this is off topic, so please reply to [EMAIL PROTECTED] A web site I maintain has a PDF to download. The host uses apache so if I use .htaccess in the root directory with the line: addType application/download .pdf Would I be correct? Angus MacKinnon MacKinnon Crest

Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-09 Thread matt andrews
On 10/02/06, Lachlan Hunt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Angus at InfoForce Services wrote: Most people have JAVAScript turned off, According to what statistics? I think you'll find most people actually have it turned on. Indeed. I can report from some recent testing on the sites I work on

Re: [WSG] IE7 Compatibility Team

2006-02-09 Thread Lachlan Hunt
Cade Whitbourn wrote: The compatibility issue is caused by our use of CSS filters. They specificially highlight our use of Star HTML Hack, Selector HTML Hack and the Holly Hack. I'm not sure what you mean by the Selector HTML Hack. The problem with the * html filter is that they removed it

Re: [WSG] Download line in .htaccess

2006-02-09 Thread Lachlan Hunt
Angus at InfoForce Services wrote: I do not know if this is off topic, It's on topic because it's about MIME types, and MIME types are a standard. A web site I maintain has a PDF to download. The host uses apache so if I use .htaccess in the root directory with the line: addType

Re: [WSG] IE7 Compatibility Team

2006-02-09 Thread Kenneth Fraser
Greetings, From my experience when I run into an IE bug (double-margin / 3 pixel jog) that could use height: 1% to fix it, I use display: inline as an alternative and it saves a hack in your code or one less reason to use a conditional comment. I haven't noticed any problems with other

Re: [WSG] Download line in .htaccess

2006-02-09 Thread Patrick H. Lauke
Angus at InfoForce Services wrote: I do not know if this is off topic, so please reply to [EMAIL PROTECTED] A web site I maintain has a PDF to download. The host uses apache so if I use .htaccess in the root directory with the line: addType application/download .pdf I've never heard of

Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-09 Thread Angus at InfoForce Services
Lachlan and Matt Thank you for the information. I should recheck. Do you have information about International web users? Angus MacKinnon MacKinnon Crest Saying Latin - Audentes Fortuna Juvat English - Fortune Assists The Daring Web page http://www.infoforce-services.com Choroideremia

Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-09 Thread matt andrews
On 10/02/06, Angus at InfoForce Services [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lachlan and Matt Thank you for the information. I should recheck. Do you have information about International web users? For the sites I referred to as having less than 0.1% of members with Javascript turned off, the users are

Re: [WSG] Today's lesson: Respect - be courteous up or leave

2006-02-09 Thread liorean
On 09/02/06, russ - maxdesign [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Russ Miss Manors Why do I get this sudden urge to humm The Commodores (She's a) Brick House? And, and please do something similar for posting ettiquette. Just looking at replies to this post there's two top posts which quote your entire

Re: [WSG] IE7 Compatibility Team

2006-02-09 Thread Thierry Koblentz
Kenneth Fraser wrote: Greetings, From my experience when I run into an IE bug (double-margin / 3 pixel jog) that could use height: 1% to fix it, I use display: inline as an alternative and it saves a hack in your code or one less reason to use a conditional comment. I haven't noticed any

Re: [WSG] Today's lesson: Respect - be courteous up or leave

2006-02-09 Thread Rob Mientjes
On 10/02/06, liorean [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And, and please do something similar for posting ettiquette. Just looking at replies to this post there's two top posts which quote your entire message without any trimming... To stay off-topic here, that's the mail app's preference, probably.

Re: [WSG] Today's lesson: Respect - be courteous up or leave

2006-02-09 Thread Lachlan Hunt
liorean wrote: And, and please do something similar for posting ettiquette. Just looking at replies to this post there's two top posts which quote your entire message without any trimming... Yes, I agree completely, though the issue of top posting is big can of worms that often sparks great

Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-09 Thread Absalom Media
matt andrews wrote: On 10/02/06, Lachlan Hunt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Angus at InfoForce Services wrote: Most people have JAVAScript turned off, According to what statistics? I think you'll find most people actually have it turned on. Indeed. I can report from some recent testing on

Re: [WSG] Today's lesson: Respect - be courteous up or leave

2006-02-09 Thread Christian Montoya
On 2/10/06, Rob Mientjes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/02/06, liorean [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And, and please do something similar for posting ettiquette. Just looking at replies to this post there's two top posts which quote your entire message without any trimming... To stay