As it is pretty well off topic (though tempting for me to throw my hat
in but I'd consider that to be taking advantage of the situation), can I
please suggest that all answers be directed to Tim off list.
The way I understood the question, it was a CMS to author HTML marketing
emails within a set
Hi Chris,
I think the first thing is that it's an annoyance to some
(read: me). Whenever I look at http://virginblue.com.au/ I groan and think
that some little kid had a field day with Frontpage. (Hopefully the author isn't
on the list. Sorry if you are.) Let the system do the chrome
Hi Taco,
I guess in the end it all becomes a case of - is the client
willing to pay for your extra time required to apply all these hacks.
First thing to note is that it is soo much quicker to develop a site
this way once you get the basics right. Once you have the basics, you start
the
Hi Jonathon,
It has dynamic menus that you're not getting in Safari.
A good illustration of not testing (or caring about) cross platform
compatibility.
This is also a good time to point out that if you use these types of dynamic
menus, you must point the initial link to a meaningful address (a
If you force a user to save the file locally instead of
opening it in the manner in which their browser is set up to handle it you're
taking away their control of default behaviours. I really recommend against
this. Let the browser handle it. If they have only the Acrobat Reader,a
PDF
We must remember the origin of the Home Page. This was the page that your
old Unix shell account browser saved their bookmarks to (the two I used to
use were lynx and I believe the other was simply www). This page was (by
default) the index document in your account directory
Title: FW: [WSG] Site Issues
Bouncesare only sent to the sender of a post (and
us), not the list.
Please do not send errors back to the list as they are then
permanently archived into the public archive at mail-archive.com (we can't
delete posts from this archive). Please post list issues
Hi Michael,
First problem is that the page isn't valid.
http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://auslegs.com.au/about/index.cfm
Second, the CSS isn't valid.
http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/validator?uri=http://auslegs.com.au/style
s/auslegs.csswarning=1profile=css2usermedium=all
I suggest
Gulp! Yeah. Well by the time I've fixed all those I might
just have fixed
whatever the problem is.
Thanks Peter.
Cheers
Mike Kear
-Original Message-
From: Peter Firminger [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, 21 December 2003 1:08 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject
Hi Adam,
To send the header, I believe it is cfcontent type=application/xhtml+xml
I use cfcontent type=text/xml for XML and RDF AGLS harvest control lists
and metadata. e.g.: http://gtconnect.webboy.net/meta/index.cfm (HCL) and
http://gtconnect.webboy.net/meta/metadata.cfm (metadata for other
It may be a good time to repost this from Russ on 5th July 2003:
repost
Peter and I have been (endlessly) discussing the pro's and cons of XHTML
over HTML4.01. We made the move from HTML4.01 transitional to XHTML 1.0
transitional mid last year, and while the transition was quick, we have been
Hi Nick,
Ah ok... so the type must be sent in the headers before the page is
even generated (i.e. by the web server). So how would the presence of
meta http-equiv=Content-Type content=text/html;
charset=ISO-8859-1
/ or the xml prolog affect the process afterwards?
Presumably by then
they
Title: Small bug
Hi
Peter,
Much obliged y'all. Hey, and work in progress exhibited on this list is
confidential, right?
Members of
the list would adhere to this I'm sure, but remember that the list is publicly
archived at
We are thinking about this, the problem is that many people have sigs with
their url in them and other people post links to sites with their questions.
If we automate the link stripping, we'll get those too.
I suggest (actually Russ did) we make sure we post the links in the
resources area so
In some Government organisations, Netscape 4 is still used as the default
browser generally to the use of the Netscape email client and because they
paid a site licence for corporate use (which is why Netscape had to bring
out an update to 4.7? last year). If one of these organisations is your
Hi folks,
The [WSG] New CMS / Framework is now getting off-topic.
I was willing for it to go on as it had a good chance of turning back to
being about Web Standards. E.g. methodologies for making sure that user
entered content (be it plain text or widget written HTML) is filtered
appropriately
Yeah, sorry folks, had a server issue this morning so if you think a message
didn't get through, please check the archive and send it again if it isn't
there.
http://webstandardsgroup.org/manage/archive.cfm
I have 5 people for the CMS list and I assume that some replies to this
request may have
Yes it's interesting but not a web standards discussion. Please reply to
this thread off list.
Peter
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Title: Message
Absolutely, one of the big ones in designing a CMS (or
blog)or making sure a static site is standards compliant (see http://www.webboy.net/presentation/validation.cfm)
Also all " in the text should really be quot; (and no
I really don't see the need for the curly varieties,
Netscape isn't tied to the OS like IE is on Windows, so it
isn't an issue. You can load any number of other browsers, but without the
aforementioned installations, you are generally stuck with one version of IE
unless you set up a dual-boot system.
P
From: Universal Head
We can probably shut this one down now folks. It's gotten way OT.
Browser set-up preferences isn't really on-topic at all.
New windows are a personal/professional preference rather than a standards
topic (though the conversation did start on-topic when related to target in
XHTML and the handy
Hi Peter,
That really should happen on the server using whatever programming language
you're equipped with (ColdFusion, PHP, Perl, ASP etc.) It is possible to do
it from the client using JavaScript or simply submitting the form to an
email address but it's really dodgy and I strongly recommend
Stick with it David. Our time will come. The benefits of going through the
(hard) process of getting your standards codebank together far outweigh the
pain. Once you have it, you start with a base codeset and then, creating a
new site is a much easier process. Whether you pass the savings on to
Hi Chris,
You need to escape any with
amp;(even in URL query strings). Links to the relevant
files/validator results would help so we could see the code.
P
From: Chris Stratford
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004
1:01 PMTo: Web Standards
The other suggestion is to validate the CSS file(s)
separately at http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/validator-uri.htmlrather
than parsing the xhtml for the linked files.
P
I have an
interesting problem here...i try and validate the CSS of my XHTML
website...and the CSS page says i
It's good practice to do it for (amp;) and (quot;) in the text all the
time (HTML or XHTML).
Also be aware of em-dashes, en-dashes, epsilons (...) and the curly
varieties of and ' (which I hate and always strip back to the plain text
version).
If it's your own blog software, make sure to
I've found that the entities mdash; and ndash; don't work in older
browsers (like NN4), so best use the numeric entities:
em-dash = #8212;
en-dash = #8211;
I agree entirely Justin. Sorry I didn't point that out.
elispes (not epsilons) = #8230;
Oops,
Hi JG,
If you validate the page using the HTML validator, there is a link to check
the CSS as well and this parses the page to validate the CSS (easier than
validating all the CSS files individually if you have more than one and more
correct as it uses the parsing tree).
So go to:
I know I have my browser (IE 6 WinXP Pro) set to not cache
anything, but this method doesn't work for me. Over a second delay on rollover
and roll off with a blank space in the meantime. It makes no difference to a
_javascript_ preload at all. Much better code though so I'm not canning
it.
Hmmm,
a) it doesn't validate... Should really be fixed before posting unless
validation is the question.
b) Box model hack? danger will robinson / There are ways around this. I
strongly suggest you lose this and structure the page so that is doesn't
require it.
c) Why the div class=clearboth/a
I keep biting my tongue on this subject.
Let me state first... I have no particular love of IE. It's what the vast
majority of my audience uses and therefore it's my default browser. If
Mozilla or something else takes the market share, I'll change my default (as
I did when Netscape 4.x lost
Just thought you all may be interested in the WSG user base.
136 Australia
2 Austria
6 Belgium
8 Brazil
8 Canada
2 Denmark
1 Finland
1 France
8 Germany
1 Iceland
3 India
1 Indonesia
1 Iraq
4 Italy
1 Jordan
4 New Zealand
1 Norway
1 Peru
2 Philippines
1
So move your form out to surround an area that isn't pixel-perfect
critical.. the whole page if necessary..
P
From: Chris Stratford
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2004
2:36 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [WSG]
IE bug
Is that why when you close
. See
http://webstandardsgroup.org/go/event7.cfm for details.
Have a great conference everyone!
Regards,
Peter Firminger
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Jaime, this is not a CSS list so no apology required. You are definitely
on-topic.
Unless you want to tell your client to go all the way I suggest you tell
them that they are clutching for buzzwords by demanding XHTML 1.0 Strict (or
anything beyond XHTML 1.0 Transitional). If they continue to
Good question Peter!
Absolutely. The metadata is about the page not the site and should be unique
(at least the title and description) for every page. Depends on how much
metadata you use.
This leads to a really deep discussion about metadata that we may have at
some point, but in the mean time
PS. Not all search engines read nor care about meta keywords
In fact, we believe that only one (not too significant) SE looks at them at
all and they would be far down the decision list there anyway as they are
perfect spambait for spamming the engines with incorrect metadata.
There is some
In looking for some other
stuff on W3, I stumbled across this pagehttp://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-basic/
The DTD is
"-//W3C//DTD XHTML Basic 1.0//EN"
Anyone had anything to do
with this? I hadn't heard of it at all (maybe I'm ignorant and should spend more
time trawling the W3 site).
P
Hi Lorenzo,
Firstly thanks for joining! You wrapped up one of the two continents we were
missing in our members. Only Antarctica to go now (I think?).
You could try looking at the document on
http://webstandardsgroup.org/go/resource135.cfm
Regards,
Peter
PS: While I'm at it a quick member
Hyperlinking URIs and email addresses in plain text emails is handled by the
client (e.g. Outlook) so there is no need.
HTML or Rich text email is a real problem. If you get a digest version of
most lists you get the raw code in the digest version as it is mixed format
and text takes precedence
Hyperlinking URIs and email addresses in plain text emails is
handled by the
client (e.g. Outlook) so there is no need.
Let me add to that. With a URI , starting with http:// or www. should kick
in a link. For a site like webstandardsgroup.org (which doesn't ever use
www.) you would need to
And I'll add a bit:
Forms on Websites
Is there a good place that explains/makes available the coding
involved for putting simple forms on sites? My programming
knowledge
doesn't go beyond css, xhtml and using JavaScript nuggets, but I've
always wanted to be able to put contact forms on
Hi Mike,
Bobby is an accessibility checker with a huge chip on it's shoulder.
http://bobby.watchfire.com/bobby/html/en/index.jsp
In my opinion it supposes too much and is basically a self righteous piece
of rubbish.
Take www.gt.nsw.gov.au for example.
Hi Martin,
I'm not familiar with this at all. How much of this example would be
auto-generated? One would assume that a lot of it could be fixed by putting
things in the right place (scripts in the head section and adding a
doctype).
http://www.add2web.dk/aspdatagrid/Sample/default.asp
P
Hi Jaime,
Yes it's very important. Many differently-abled people don't use a mouse.
They use the keyboard to navigate around a page/site (generally much faster
and more efficiently than any mouse user). By using onclick or onmousedown
etc. you may be blocking their access to whatever the resource
I might just point out some of the other WSG bits pieces
that many people
probably aren't aware of:
- the resources section
http://webstandardsgroup.org/resources/ (which I
believe everyone on the list is able to add to)
- the WSG CMS list (buggered if I can remember how you join...
Also of some interest, maybe a bit old... Aug 7 2003
http://discover.npr.org/features/feature.jhtml?wfId=1388637
Paul Ford from ftrain.com on web standards. Nice to hear NPR on a topic
close to my heart. I'm available for an interview too! (my public
broadcasting (ABC) background showing through
link
rel="shortcut icon" href=""http://webboy.net/webboy.ico">http://webboy.net/webboy.ico"
/
From: Universal Head
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 1:36
PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [WSG] New
CSS site
This doesn't validate either - does anyone
As long as you don't mind all the 404 errors.
Best practice:
* Use the icon format with as many versions as you like (16x16, 32x32, 16
colour, 256 colour etc.) within that file.
* Use favicon.ico as the filename and put in in the site root. This will
account for a majority by default.
* On every
I meant end of favicon topic, not feedback on the site.
Sorry,
P
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Hi 7,
Can you please supply a link to the page in question as well as the CSS
file(s).
In order to help we need to be able to see it in action in case there is
something else in the code affecting or conflicting with it. This also lets
us see what language and version you are using and whether
Yep, getting that a lot this morning.. The details are at the end of the
welcome email (which no-one seems to read)... I will warn you however that
the digest version isn't perfect. I'm about to upgrade the mail server so
we'll see if it improves but it is received as an email with attachments on
They seem to be emanating from a bt.com smtp server.
Any ideas BT members?
Return-Path: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Received: from smtp4.smtp.bt.com [217.32.164.151] by mail.webboy.net with
SMTP;
Wed, 17 Mar 2004 12:34:52 +1100
Peter
*
The
They're at http://www.nngroup.com/events/sydney/prices.html . Worst case (5
days no EB) AUD$3,618 per head.
Not 20K but still pretty steep.
P
I wanted to send this out early so we can all benefit from
the early discount fee.
Thanks - that will also give us all time to have some good
long
Hmmm yes, we have access to three (mini) DV cameras that I know of.
Processing all that video will be a bit of a pain though. We'll probably do
an hour with David so it may not be very practical, and I don't really want
to serve that much video from my server. Maybe someone in Sydney can
Hi Scott,
Not off topic at all. We're right in the middle of a planning stage for WSG
and will be making some announcements soon.
Yes we have discussed a forum, but have agreed that it will not fulfil the
purpose as questions won't get answered with the same speed. I am on many
fora and only
The address is?
P
Hello all,
Ok this is my first fully CSS based site (still work in
progress by the
way) and I first of all want to give credit to Russ's great
*
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See
The quick test is to simply change the doctype and hit a validator to see
what issues arise from your code and then work through them.
Remember though that if you're changing from XHTML 1.0 Transitional, then
you really need to change the way the document is sent to the browser, the
mime type
A general note to all.
Due to the increase in traffic, probably better to send Thanks emails that
contain nothing else directly to the sender rather than to the list.
Thanks,
Peter
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See
H... All very interesting.
To do this we may have to change the functionality of the CMS a bit and
maybe even hard code the pages that rarely change due to the needs of a site
that displays code on the page by default (when pasted in). I don't think
that many outside the core group have
Hi Darian,
I'm considering changing the fonts for my website's CSS to
arial... maybe.
I wouldn't bother. Verdana is perfectly acceptable with the Arial,
Sans-serif backup.
I still like verdana, I'm so stubborn (_) I don't think either of
these font are really offending to anyone. Maybe if
Hi Vaska,
Posting a link to it will really help. Without seeing the rest of the HTML
(doctype etc.) we have no idea about whether or not you are in standards
compliant mode and what else is in there. Are you using a frameset doctype.
Have you validated all your code (html and css)?
Can I ask (in
So you're saying we should all just use black default font on white pages
then? Not going to happen!
It's a pathetic argument Felix. Really not worth bothering with.
Peter
On the contrary. Because authors using Verdana as primary
size according
to their own taste for the giant font, when
Title: How do I start a group in a city
Hi Brian,
There would be no real need for a domain and local website as you
could post your meeting notices, presentation materialsetc. on the
WSGsite giving you exposure to others that may happen along later. That is
unless you didn't want it to be a
Unsubscribing will fix it Felix.
P
Why do people send this junk to a mailing list?
Why doesn't the mailing list software strip it out?
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See
Title: Message
Hmmm,
Try putting it into standards compliant mode and it's different,
but still not correct. Also putting the style into the head section will help...
Really can't expect anything good to happen where it is.
Try margin-left: 9%;
See http://webboy.net/jobs/css/taco.htm
P
Hi Chris,
I believe you may need to address all states of the a selector: link,
visited and active as well as hover (which you do separately):
#navigation a.current:link, #navigation a.current:visited, #navigation
a.current:active,
{
background-color: #FFF;
border-bottom: 1px solid #FFF;
Hi and welcome Noa!
The only advantage I can tell is that it just doesn't use any
table or
td or tr tags, which I have an irrational hatred towards.
Let's not get carried away with hatred for tables. They have a place in
(x)html and where appropriate are the best tool for the job. Using them
Did my suggestion last night help?
Hey everyone...
this problem is still a problem for me...
anyone have any suggestions??
basically - I want to define the width of the tabs on my website...
withouth havint to add a span...
Try something like this
Great question!
I must admit to copping out to a gif on the rare occasions we have had to do
this but SVG may be an option.
Does anyone know if the SVG plug-ins are pre-installed with browsers (IE in
particular) now? I seem to have the adobe plug-ins (I'm on WinXP Pro) but
can't remember if I
Hi all,
The goal in adhering to web standards isn't to pass the validator, it's to
write valid code. The validator is just a tool to help achieve this. Fudging
to fool the validator is just cheating on a test.
If it's not in the spec it shouldn't be on the page, whether it's hard coded
or
Russ already stopped this thread. Please do not continue with it on list.
P
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Hi Tina,
I would suggest using HTML 4.01 Transitional over HTML 4.0 but I can't
remember why now. I think (maybe) it is more consistently displayed across
browsers. I know we had a reason to make sure we changed all our stuff years
ago but it was probably to do with NN 4 at that stage.
There is
I'm sure lot's of people probably use em when they aren't really
emphasising something, but simply wanting to make something italic.
Absolutely! In natural science (specifically speaking about species names
here) Italics are the way to present the scientific name (genus species pair
or senior
AMEN Brother! Thanks for saying it. Kinda gets lonely out on this
limb... (sorry for the content-free reply)
P
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Simon
JesseySent: Sunday, May 02, 2004 11:56 PMTo:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [WSG] CSS:
John (and anyone else that has them on by
default),
Turn off read receipt requests when posting to this list! These
horribly invasive things are worse than spam and I get most of them returned to
me being the list administrator! I have 47 so far, thanks
mate.
There are 580+ addresses on
Hi Geoff,
I still think that SVG is worth investigating though will be a steep
learning curve.
This one is pretty impressive, especially the relationships.
http://www.w3.org/2003/02/W3COrg.svg
P
Deb,
That looks pretty cool. Is it dynamically or manually built? We've
been working on
Hi,
I really don't think we want to discuss people's voting reasons on list.
That can be done on http://discuss.webstandardsgroup.org/archives/12.htm
if you really want to.
They are flat graphic mock-ups so there is no code at this stage. The chosen
design will be built correctly.
When
That'll do for the PHP stuff now thanks folks. There are plenty of resources
available online. Use google to locate them. Something like
http://www.google.com/search?q=php+form+validation
P
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The discussion list for
Hi Members,
Voting has now closed for the WSG design competition. For your information,
here are the top 3 results:
Voting (total 144 votes):
69 votes (47.9%) - Russ Weakley
35 votes (24.3%) - Current Site
17 votes (11.8%) - Lindsay Evans
Rating (sum of points awarded -2 to 2):
154 - Russ
I repeat from my initial post...
Any discussion on this topic should take place on
http://discuss.webstandardsgroup.org/archives/12.htm
This is not negotiable!
Peter
Listdad
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Works perfectly on IE 6 for me. There's always a flash of no BG on IE but it
returns as it loads it again.
IE separates the normal and hover states and when you roll over it loads the
image again, even though it's the same one. Try the nav on the WSG site in
IE and you'll see the same happens to
It's very difficult (impossible) to emulate all the bugs in a browser
without running the browser. Emulators can emulate the required behaviour
but generally not the bugs. So unless you actually do what people like
browsercam have done and set up a bank of machines running the browsers and
I've let this ramble on a bit as a) it seemed interesting to a number of you
and b) it is a slow day on the list however now it is going right off target
and I think we should finish the discussion.
Thanks,
ListDad
This is having less and less to do with web standards.
We have a CMS list for this subject. Please (subscribe if you're not already
on it and) move it over there for any further discussion.
For details, see: http://webstandardsgroup.org/go/resource131.cfm
Regards,
Peter
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Is Google that hard to use?
http://www.google.com.au/search?q=ruby+editor
Can we send these directly to the person that requested it please and that
person can post the suggestions.
Also, just give positives. If you don't like 'product-x', then don't suggest
it. Trashing products on-list is not
(not that I
expect any discussion on this). I'm not joking.
Peter Firminger
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Nick,
No, no - I'm not suggesting for a second we should *only* develop for
IE, or any other certain browsers! Just the opposite - I make a point
of delivering my clients' message to the maximum number of visitors.
And I'm not bitter; just realistic. That's why I say 'IE is here to
stay'.
Nope sorry,
The correct content type or MIME type for an XHTML document is
application/xhtml+xml.
This (mime type issue) is only required for XHTML 1.1. You don't have to do
it for XHTML 1.0 Transitional (which the example was).
The answer to Jamie's original question is to have a look at the
Russ and I have discussed this at length and we have come to the opinion
that the @import rule (when used in that manner) is indeed a hack but a
harmless one.
The reasoning is that it exploits a bug or particular behaviour in a
browser. In this case, older browsers don't understand it at all and
No, we do it to specifically exploit this bug or particular behaviour so it
is a hack. If you look at the stylesheets you'll see that there is basic css
in the one that NN4 can see and all the other more advanced stuff is in the
one it can't see. All quite deliberate using both methods to achieve
LOL
Yeah, I'm not laughing! You should see the bounces I get from many many
(Government) mail servers that block anything containing the f word
(probably when it is in a URL).
New rule (I really didn't think we had to make a rule about this)
Anyone using profanity on this list in future will
Hi list,
For our Queensland members (or anyone else that has a travel budget to get
them to Brisbane for a Queensland mid-winter weekend):
The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C) is a non-for-profit, vendor-neutral
international Web standards organisation that develops
Not a good idea for the average website. If you're running
amazon.com then there would be a reason to do it but for most of us maintenance
would be an issue.
P
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Christopher
KennonSent: Sunday, June 13, 2004 9:28
Hi List,
I have added (at the request of Bert Doorn) a resources section for server
applications that output valid code.
Bert's question included the following:
-
In order to further promote standards compliant (x)html and css websites, I
wonder if we could as a group provide a
Please answer this off list as it has nothing to do with Web Standards.
P
I am looking for a (preferably free) software to be able to
do searches
on an Intranet site. The Intranet is hosted on a local Unix Server.
Any inputs would be greatly appreciated.
Regards,
Amit Karmakar
Then again, according to the article (rant): changing
standards = OXYMORON
That's why there are different versions and subversions. 3.2, 4.0 and 4.01
are all different beasts. They don't change. If you're an idiot that doesn't
think a doctype is required because you don't understand it, then
Title: RE: [WSG] Redesigning smh.com.au & theage.com.au with css
Sorry folks, nothing really wrong here but the subject
line is giving me grief.Some Governmentspam filters see ; in the
subject and throw it back to me and I'm getting swamped. Stupid really but there
you go.
If you must
Hi,
Russ is in New Zealand at the moment and the end of the financial year was
not good for either of us.
For the moment I don't have time to build a new section for job ads, but
it's in the list of things to do. I don't believe it's a good solution
though as it will still require people to
Hi Scott,
The process is open. Join W3C, get on a working group and contribute to
you're heart's content. But you'll need to know a lot more than you do now.
No offence but I think you'll be out of your depth just getting out of the
elevator (as I would be).
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