Hi Can you point me to a dashboard that is 508 compliant? We like the user to be able to: --move each individual dashboard within the webpage --minimize and maximize each individual dashboard. --choose which dashboards with the page the user would like.
Thanks, Nancy Johnson ----- Original Message ---- From: "wsg@webstandardsgroup.org" <wsg@webstandardsgroup.org> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 7:24:20 AM Subject: WSG Digest ********************************************************************* WEB STANDARDS GROUP MAIL LIST DIGEST ********************************************************************* From: Frank Palinkas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 14:29:27 +0200 Subject: RE: [WSG] Web Standards In Colleges and Universities Hi James, Tony has given you some great advice. If I may add to that, although it may be difficult depending on the circumstance, try to keep a cool head at all times. Your integrity comes first, backed up by your intellectual property. If it may help you in your studies, I can email you several Fast track tutorial project packages regarding the application of web standards and accessibility in various scenarios: "Building Accessible Static Navigation with CSS" "Calling Accessible Context-Sensitive Help with Unobtrusive DOM/JavaScript" "Creating Accessible Tabular Data Tables" "Creating Auto-line Numbered Code Blocks" These are free-of-charge, so don't worry about any kind of compensation. I write all code and content within the Visual Studio 2005 IDE Source Code Editors, so there's no extraneous code added to the HTML, CSS and DOM/JavaScript of a proprietary nature by a WYSIWYG authoring environment. I'll be presenting these at the next WritersUA Annual conference in March 2008 at Portland, Oregon, USA. Please let me know, and I'll be happy to send them. Kind regards, Frank M. Palinkas Microsoft M.V.P. - Windows Help W3C HTML Working Group (H.T.M.L.W.G.) - Invited Expert M.C.P., M.C.T., M.C.S.E., M.C.D.B.A., A+ Senior Technical Communicator Web Standards & Accessibility Designer From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of James Jeffery Sent: Saturday, 20 October, 2007 12:00 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Web Standards In Colleges and Universities Thanks Toney. Most of the documents we are handed from the tutor are grammatically wrong and contain a huge amount of spelling errors, such as: "Place the curser over the table cell click ok when you done" Im not sure who is writing them, but again, another issue. I will have a private chat with him, and see what he says. Im all for pushing Web Standards forward, and when i see a college in Birmingham (thats classed as on of the best) teaching outdated methods it makes me angry for both the industry and for the thousands of students. It may not be his fault, your right. James On 10/20/07, Tony Crockford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On 20 Oct 2007, at 10:18, James Jeffery wrote: > Should i use my essay and examples and > take it to the head of > the college? I really don't know how to go about this, but its > definatly a > problem. Who set the syllabus? Assuming it's the college administration, then they are the people to discuss your concerns with. don't assume the tutor is at fault. have a private chat with him, if he truly isn't aware of web standards, then you can tell him that you will be speaking to the college administration about the syllabus being taught and its shortcomings. if he is aware, but is bound by the syllabus, then you may find an ally in your quest. either way, have the private chat, challenging him in front of class, is bound to create a defensive stance from him. if the syllabus is wrong (as it appears to be) work your way through the college administration, explaining that the methods being taught are wrong and using this as support for your case: http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/government it/web guidelines/ consultations.aspx "In order to meet European objectives for inclusive e-government and so that the UK public sector meets its obligations with regards to disability legislation, we have proposed that all government websites must meet Level Double-A of the W3C guidelines by December 2008. Government websites are strongly recommended to develop an accessibility policy to aid the planning and procurement of inclusive websites. This includes building a business case, analysing user needs, developing an accessibility test plan and procuring accessible content authoring tools. The guidance covers some of the design solutions to common problems faced by users but is mainly aimed at strategic managers and project managers to assist with planning and procurement." try not to be adversarial, you'll get a better response with a "can you explain why we are learning outdated methods" approach. hth and good luck... ******************************************************************* List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ******************************************************************* ******************************************************************* List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ******************************************************************* ********************************************************************* From: "nate hanna" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 09:40:42 -0400 Subject: Re: [WSG] Javascript focus()...cursor at start of space-filled field in IE, but at end of space-filled in Firefox Simon, See if this link helps you out at all... http://www.webmasterworld.com/forum91/4527.htm - Nate On 10/19/07, Chris Knowles <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Simon Cockayne wrote: > > Hi > > > > /* It's Friday - hurrah! */ > > > > PROBLEM: Javascript focus()...puts cursor at START of space-filled > > field in IE 6, but at END of space-filled in Firefox 2. > > > > Any way (without changing the field value to be "") to get the cursor > > to appear at the start of the field in Firefox? > > > > do you mind if I ask why? > > -- > Chris Knowles > > > ******************************************************************* > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > ******************************************************************* > > ********************************************************************* From: "Simon Cockayne" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 15:41:33 +0100 Subject: Re: WSG Digest Hi Chris, I'd like bother browser to behave the same. I can se select() ot maybe change the value of the field to be "". But...the HTML is generated...which means a program change...whereas the javascript is handcoded...so that is the easier change...that's all. Simon > ********************************************************************* > From: Chris Knowles <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 21:15:22 +1000 > Subject: Re: [WSG] Javascript focus()...cursor at start of space-filled field in IE, but at end of space-filled in Firefox > > Simon Cockayne wrote: > > Hi > > > > /* It's Friday - hurrah! */ > > > > PROBLEM: Javascript focus()...puts cursor at START of space-filled > > field in IE 6, but at END of space-filled in Firefox 2. > > > > Any way (without changing the field value to be "") to get the cursor > > to appear at the start of the field in Firefox? > > > > do you mind if I ask why? ********************************************************************* From: "Tee G. Peng" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 14:13:22 -0700 Subject: Priority 2 error - Clearly identify the target of each link. working on a project that must meet all mechanical check for priority 2, via WAI or Total validator. Client is from UK and according to an article I read, by year 2008, all government websites must meet the priority 2 is that correct? This is not a site for government but client wanted WCAG AA compliant. In the site, there is a section for blog, and the excerpt follows with a 'continue reading' link (title attribute generated by the blog or CMS script I have yet to find out, and can't find a way to change or customize it). In the same page more than one article is listed, that means more than one title attribute with 'continue reading', as a result I am unable to pass the Priority 2: 13.1 Clearly identify the target of each link. http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/#tech-meaningful-links Can this idiotically error be ignored? Thanks! tee ********************************************************************* From: "Hayden's Harness Attachment" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 14:15:10 -0700 Subject: Windows Mobile on XP SP2 I am not sure if this is off topic or not. If it is off topic, contact me at [EMAIL PROTECTED] I have an HP IPAQ HW6955 PDA running Mobile Speak Pocket (MSP) and want to start designing web pages for the Windows Mobile Platform. When I contacted Microsoft about this, I was told to check the CD that came with the IPAQ and to also contact HP. Microsoft active Sync is okay for viewing and modifying files, but is not great for seeing my work on a P4 2.4GHz Windows XP SP2 PC. I realize I need to find an emulator, however, where do I find it? ------ Love Hayden (Super Duper Guide Dog)and The harness attachment Angus MacKinnon MacKinnon Crest Saying Latin - Audentes Fortuna Juvat English - Fortune Assists The Daring Web page http://www.infoforce-services.com It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible. George Washington ********************************************************************* From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Gunlaug_S=F8rtun?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 00:23:16 +0200 Subject: Re: [WSG] Priority 2 error - Clearly identify the target of each link. Tee G. Peng wrote: > [...] In the same page more than one article is listed, that means > more than one title attribute with 'continue reading', as a result I > am unable to pass the Priority 2: 13.1 Clearly identify the target > of each link. > http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/#tech-meaningful-links > > Can this idiotically error be ignored? If each link text clearly identifies the relevant target, then whatever is in the title attribute can be read for what it is: additional information - an extension of the link text. In this case the title attribute is mostly ignored by everyone, and you can safely ignore it to - in this context. If link text is the same, general repetition, on several links, then the link text does *not* "clearly identify the target". In such a case the link fails '13.1' regardless of what's in the title attribute. Title attributes can't act as substitute for real link text, so if there's no proper link text - or proper use of alt attribute for images, the entire link fails no matter what. regards Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no ********************************************************************* From: russ - maxdesign <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 08:31:24 +1000 Subject: Re: [WSG] Priority 2 error - Clearly identify the target of each link. Hi Tee, Is it an "Idiotic error"? Imagine you're blind... Like a sighted user, you want to be able to skim across web pages rather than having to read every single word. For sighted users this is easy, as their eyes can grab snippets of content and subheadings to give them some context - without having to read the page from start to finish. For blind users who want to skim across a page, or jump straight to desired content, there are two common methods they use. 1. pop open a "headings" dialog box that lists all headings on the page. Then they can quickly select the desired heading and jump to this heading on the page. 2. pop open a "links" dialog box that lists all links on the page. Just like headings, they should then be able to choose from the list of links, and jump straight to the desired link on the page. Now, imagine that the link dialog box comes up and many of the links say "continue reading". This would mean the blind user has absolutely no context for any of these link. This method of navigating is now much less useful. The same happens when they come across this sort of link when reading the page contents. A link saying "continue reading" gives them absolutely no context. They have to guess from associated content what you are pointing to. I've seen this happen many times when watching blind users in action and it is very frustrating for these people! Some are so irritated that they simple leave the website and go elsewhere. This is going to sound pompous... But even if it was not a legal requirement, it should be a moral obligation for all developers. We should all be trying to make our pages accessible to as many people as possible - not placing barriers in their way. If desperate, you can use methods like "simple, accessible more links": http://www.maxdesign.com.au/presentation/more-links/ Apologies for the rant :) Russ on 21/10/07 7:13 AM, Tee G. Peng at wrote: > working on a project that must meet all mechanical check for priority > 2, via WAI or Total validator. Client is from UK and according to an > article I read, by year 2008, all government websites must meet the > priority 2 is that correct? This is not a site for government but > client wanted WCAG AA compliant. > > In the site, there is a section for blog, and the excerpt follows > with a 'continue reading' link (title attribute generated by the blog > or CMS script I have yet to find out, and can't find a way to change > or customize it). In the same page more than one article is listed, > that means more than one title attribute with 'continue reading', as > a result I am unable to pass the Priority 2: 13.1 Clearly identify > the target of each link. > http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/#tech-meaningful-links > > Can this idiotically error be ignored? > > Thanks! > > tee ********************************************************************* From: Chris Knowles <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 08:43:46 +1000 Subject: Re: [WSG] Re: WSG Digest Simon Cockayne wrote: > Hi Chris, > > I'd like bother browser to behave the same. > > I can se select() ot maybe change the value of the field to be "". > > But...the HTML is generated...which means a program change...whereas > the javascript is handcoded...so that is the easier change...that's > all. > Hi Simon ok, so I take it your problem is that the field is being generated on the server and inserting unwanted space in the value which then causes this issue, so ideally you need to remove the whitespace from the value? If thats the case then really the server side should be changed to not do it in the first place. If thats not possible then just use javascript to set the value to an empty string: document.getElementById('form1').fld1.value = "" If you want the whitespace in there for some reason but want the cursor in the same place in both browsers then thats a different matter. Maybe you could clarify this? -- Chris Knowles ********************************************************************* From: "James Bennett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 17:53:41 -0500 Subject: Re: [WSG] Priority 2 error - Clearly identify the target of each link. On 10/20/07, russ - maxdesign <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The same happens when they come across this sort of link when reading the > page contents. A link saying "continue reading" gives them absolutely no > context. They have to guess from associated content what you are pointing > to. And yet... here you hit the underlying problem: to what extent should fragments of web content be required to be meaningful when completely stripped of context? To see why this is an important question, change the situation to a Web page which displays academic-style research, and give the user agent a "show all footnotes" option; at that point, does using "Ibid." and/or "Id." as footnote text render the document "inaccessible"? These abbreviations are common and well-understood, yet have meanings which are entirely dependent on context; in the hypothetical case of a user agent which displays footnotes devoid of context, should their use then be forbidden? And getting back to the actual issue at hand: given that there are plenty of real-world situations like this where context is vitally important, is an absolutist proscription to "make all instances of this element meaningful when stripped of context" really a good idea? -- "Bureaucrat Conrad, you are technically correct -- the best kind of correct." ********************************************************************* From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 10:30:19 +1000 Subject: Re: [WSG] Priority 2 error - Clearly identify the target of each link. Great reply (as always) Russ! Can I also add my 2c worth... Tee, when you say "This is not a site for government but client wanted WCAG AA compliant.", do you think your clients are asking for that because they wanted to make your life difficult? Ask yourself why anybody would want to ask for AA compliance? Consider this (some-what long) scenario... <scenario> You are a very successful business owner of a computer and electronics store. The business is booming and you decide you want bigger premises to extend upon your business lines. You also want to be located closer to the city to increase your potential customer base. You sign a large contract with a building firm to build some new premises for you in the city. Your main requirements were for a grand entrance, certain floor size and modern decor. You leave everything else in the hands of these 'professional' builders. 6 months later, and after much anticipation, you get the call from the builders to come and check on the progress of the works. The builders found some fantastic inner-city premises that fitted all requirements. They completely re-renovated the existing building site, including the inclusion of the most impressive electronics store entrance ever imagined!! You are blown away by the beautiful, high-tech design. However, you then think about "Jenny", a disabled employee of yours who has been with you since you started your business in 10 years ago. You say "The entrance is very impressive. But all I can see are stairs leading up to the building - where are the ramps?". You go on to point out several features that make the site premises impractical for wheel-chair bound customers, such as high-bench tops, steps throughout the site, high shelving, narrow entrance, narrow toilets and wide vanities (impossible to reach the taps unless standing up and leaning over). You then think of "Mr Forster" and "Mrs Hartlett", Jenny's best friend. In fact, it dawns on you that you have many loyal customers who have a disability. You suddenly realise that the things you put in place for Jenny, made your business attractive to many additional customers you otherwise would not have had. And now your new business site was going to make it impossible for these customers to keep coming back!! </scenario> Fortunately, in building there are standards that are adopted which force builder to comply with basic accessibility standards, so the above scenario is unlikely to occur. However, with web sites, the standards are not enforced so you never know what you will get unless you demand it from web developer(s). We must understand that standards are not there to make developers life's difficult. I see accessibility standards as the karma of the web. For those that comply, good things will happen to you. For those that don't? Well, think of it this way - those that don't comply are like the bullies in the school yard picking on those who are unable to fend for themselves. Karma will make you pay for that! Cheers Nathan ----- Original Message ----- From: "russ - maxdesign" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Web Standards Group" <wsg@webstandardsgroup.org> Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 8:31 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Priority 2 error - Clearly identify the target of each link. > Hi Tee, > > Is it an "Idiotic error"? > > Imagine you're blind... > > Like a sighted user, you want to be able to skim across web pages rather > than having to read every single word. > > For sighted users this is easy, as their eyes can grab snippets of content > and subheadings to give them some context - without having to read the > page > from start to finish. > > For blind users who want to skim across a page, or jump straight to > desired > content, there are two common methods they use. > > 1. pop open a "headings" dialog box that lists all headings on the page. > Then they can quickly select the desired heading and jump to this heading > on > the page. > > 2. pop open a "links" dialog box that lists all links on the page. Just > like > headings, they should then be able to choose from the list of links, and > jump straight to the desired link on the page. > > Now, imagine that the link dialog box comes up and many of the links say > "continue reading". This would mean the blind user has absolutely no > context > for any of these link. This method of navigating is now much less useful. > > The same happens when they come across this sort of link when reading the > page contents. A link saying "continue reading" gives them absolutely no > context. They have to guess from associated content what you are pointing > to. > > I've seen this happen many times when watching blind users in action and > it > is very frustrating for these people! Some are so irritated that they > simple > leave the website and go elsewhere. > > This is going to sound pompous... But even if it was not a legal > requirement, it should be a moral obligation for all developers. We should > all be trying to make our pages accessible to as many people as possible - > not placing barriers in their way. > > If desperate, you can use methods like "simple, accessible more links": > http://www.maxdesign.com.au/presentation/more-links/ > > Apologies for the rant :) > Russ > > > on 21/10/07 7:13 AM, Tee G. Peng at wrote: > >> working on a project that must meet all mechanical check for priority >> 2, via WAI or Total validator. Client is from UK and according to an >> article I read, by year 2008, all government websites must meet the >> priority 2 is that correct? This is not a site for government but >> client wanted WCAG AA compliant. >> >> In the site, there is a section for blog, and the excerpt follows >> with a 'continue reading' link (title attribute generated by the blog >> or CMS script I have yet to find out, and can't find a way to change >> or customize it). In the same page more than one article is listed, >> that means more than one title attribute with 'continue reading', as >> a result I am unable to pass the Priority 2: 13.1 Clearly identify >> the target of each link. >> http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/#tech-meaningful-links >> >> Can this idiotically error be ignored? >> >> Thanks! >> >> tee > > > > > ******************************************************************* > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > ******************************************************************* > > ********************************************************************* From: "Tee G. Peng" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 17:34:46 -0700 Subject: Re: [WSG] Priority 2 error - Clearly identify the target of each link. Russ, On Oct 20, 2007, at 3:31 PM, russ - maxdesign wrote: > Hi Tee, > > Is it an "Idiotic error"? > > Imagine you're blind... Ok, since you put it this way, I will reconsider my choice of word :) (thanks for the grammar correction). You have given a good reason, still, I think that criteria should have room for flexibility (just as George has given the same reason) because, link texts in the articles aren't the same and the excerpt of the article should have given enough information for a user (including screen reader user) whether he wants to continue reading the full article. If my argument is prudent, I think validator should have something like if {this} else {that} argument, so that it doesn't blindly flagging an error when it finds two same texts for title attribute:) If law requires websites must passed mechanical check, yet the logic behinds that criteria has flaw but validator can't verify it, I think we have a big problem here. I don't have screen reader to test, so I can't verify your argument about the frustration that may cause to a screen reader user if he jumps from one link to the other, although, I would thought he would have the software read out the excerpt, because, when I use Apple VoiceOver, that is exactly how I will do. Despite many posts and articles I have read, how screen reader behaves is a myth to me. I think I remember reading someone (Steve?) said that no all screen readers read the title attribute. Guess I still haven't gotten my question answered :-( tee ********************************************************************* From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Gunlaug_S=F8rtun?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 03:12:36 +0200 Subject: Re: [WSG] Priority 2 error - Clearly identify the target of each link. >> Is it an "Idiotic error"? >> >> Imagine you're blind... And my blind tester says: "it's an idiotic error - must have been implemented by non-blind people for the sole purpose of satisfying non-blind people's imagination of what it's like to be blind". My blind tester can't even read such a title attribute out of context - it's attached to the link itself, as an addition to the link text. Russ is focusing on the uniqueness of the link text itself, and you already have that sorted out with a unique and relevant link text for each link - if I understood you correctly. The title attribute is irrelevant for identifying the link as unique, and it is an additional _may be used_ anyway. Not having title attributes wouldn't make links any more unique or affect the link text in any way, but its absence would make it pass the "unique" test. Check the logic in that. regards Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no ********************************************************************* From: russ - maxdesign <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 12:47:30 +1000 Subject: Re: [WSG] Priority 2 error - Clearly identify the target of each link. > You have given a good reason, still, I think that criteria should > have room for flexibility (just as George has given the same reason) > because, link texts in the articles aren't the same and the excerpt > of the article should have given enough information for a user > (including screen reader user) whether he wants to continue reading > the full article. If my argument is prudent, I think validator should > have something like Tee, I apologise if I misread your original post. You mentioned a "...'continue reading' link..." and then mentioned "...more than one title attribute with 'continue reading'...". I assumed you were referring to the content of the link being the same for each link - like this: <a href="" title="continue reading">continue reading</a> <a href="" title="continue reading">continue reading</a> However, you may have been referring to the content of the title attribute only - like this: <a href="" title="continue reading">Unique content</a> <a href="" title="continue reading">Some other content</a> If this is the case, then I agree with Gunlaug - that this is much less of an issues. The title is designed to provide additional information, and is rarely used by assistive devices. As you say, Steve Faulkner has raised issues with the title attribute - even though his original article is not online, he gives a brief summary here: http://webstandardsgroup.org/features/steve-faulkner.cfm#seven "due to its present support in browsers, it can actually add to making content less accessible." Guideline 13.1 states that "Link text should be meaningful enough to make sense when read out of context." It goes on to say "In addition... content developers may further clarify the target of a link with an informative link title". To me, this implies that this title is not essential. It could also be interpreted that as long as your content is meaningful and unique, you should pass this checkpoint. Someone with a deeper understanding of this checkpoint may be able to clarify this! Again, apologies for misreading and for any confusion. Thanks Russ ********************************************************************* From: "Stuart Foulstone" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 10:23:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: Re: [WSG] Web Standards In Colleges and Universities Hi, You could possibly use how your college's own Website is coded to support your case. I don't know which college you're at, but look at how their Website is coded - I would be surprised if their still using the methods your tutor is teaching. -- Stuart Foulstone. http://www.bigeasyweb.co.uk BigEasy Web Design 69 Flockton Court Rockingham Street Sheffield S1 4EB Tel. 07751 413451 On Sat, October 20, 2007 10:18 am, James Jeffery wrote: > Good Morning! > > Here is my problem. Im at college this year, preparing for University > (Hopefully Birmingham) to > study Software Engineering. At college we have a class on a Thursday > called > "Web Development" > and the guy thats teaching the class in an absolute joke, no seriously, he > is. > > He is teaching students how to create web pages using Dreamweaver in > "Design" view, and then > telling students if they can do this, they are Web Designers. > > I was angry, i instantly replied and questioned his knowledge on HTML and > asked the age old question: > "What are tables in HTML used for?", he replied "To lay out web pages and > for tabled data", i replied with > "wrong", he laughed and told me he knows what he is talking about. > > I seriously want to raise a huge issue at the college, but im not sure how > to do it. This guy is on 22k+ > a year, and cannot even teach people correctly, he may have been a pro > back > in the days when tables > were acceptable to lay out web pages, but in todays world he is a fool. > > Its half term now, we have an assignment to complete using Dreamweaver, > and > he said i have to use > tables, its not a problem, i will do as the assignment requests. I will > walk > the extra mile and create the > same page without tables, with semantics, with accessibility in mind and > without the bloated mark-up, > and then write a essay comparing the both. > > What power do i have (if any) to try and get the college to understand > they > cannot use a cowboy to > teach tomorrows computer experts. Should i use my essay and examples and > take it to the head of > the college? I really don't know how to go about this, but its definatly a > problem. > > I really am angry and annoyed, you pay money to be taught the correct > methods. People who don't > understand are fine, they will believe him, and thats the shocking part > about it all. > > I await some advice. > > > ******************************************************************* > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > ******************************************************************* ********************************************************************* From: "James Jeffery" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 11:42:02 +0100 Subject: Re: [WSG] Web Standards In Colleges and Universities It does: http://www.matthew-boulton.ac.uk/ The site looks o.k, but as you can see the methods are wrong. On 10/21/07, Stuart Foulstone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Hi, > > You could possibly use how your college's own Website is coded to support > your case. > > I don't know which college you're at, but look at how their Website is > coded - I would be surprised if their still using the methods your tutor > is teaching. > > > -- > Stuart Foulstone. > http://www.bigeasyweb.co.uk > BigEasy Web Design > 69 Flockton Court > Rockingham Street > Sheffield > S1 4EB > > Tel. 07751 413451 > > On Sat, October 20, 2007 10:18 am, James Jeffery wrote: > > Good Morning! > > > > Here is my problem. Im at college this year, preparing for University > > (Hopefully Birmingham) to > > study Software Engineering. At college we have a class on a Thursday > > called > > "Web Development" > > and the guy thats teaching the class in an absolute joke, no seriously, > he > > is. > > > > He is teaching students how to create web pages using Dreamweaver in > > "Design" view, and then > > telling students if they can do this, they are Web Designers. > > > > I was angry, i instantly replied and questioned his knowledge on HTML > and > > asked the age old question: > > "What are tables in HTML used for?", he replied "To lay out web pages > and > > for tabled data", i replied with > > "wrong", he laughed and told me he knows what he is talking about. > > > > I seriously want to raise a huge issue at the college, but im not sure > how > > to do it. This guy is on 22k+ > > a year, and cannot even teach people correctly, he may have been a pro > > back > > in the days when tables > > were acceptable to lay out web pages, but in todays world he is a fool. > > > > Its half term now, we have an assignment to complete using Dreamweaver, > > and > > he said i have to use > > tables, its not a problem, i will do as the assignment requests. I will > > walk > > the extra mile and create the > > same page without tables, with semantics, with accessibility in mind and > > without the bloated mark-up, > > and then write a essay comparing the both. > > > > What power do i have (if any) to try and get the college to understand > > they > > cannot use a cowboy to > > teach tomorrows computer experts. Should i use my essay and examples and > > take it to the head of > > the college? I really don't know how to go about this, but its definatly > a > > problem. > > > > I really am angry and annoyed, you pay money to be taught the correct > > methods. People who don't > > understand are fine, they will believe him, and thats the shocking part > > about it all. > > > > I await some advice. > > > > > > ******************************************************************* > > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > > Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > ******************************************************************* > > > > > ******************************************************************* > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > ******************************************************************* > > ********************************************************************* From: "Cp Master" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 13:18:40 +0200 Subject: Re: [WSG] Web Standards In Colleges and Universities Yeah The Site is built by tables layout. But as you can see an external company built it: http://www.mediascopeltd.com/ I think you should try to persuade your tutor that what he teach, it's wrong. show him sites which talks about web standards, about css models. show him the following presentation: http://www.hotdesign.com/seybold/ try to explain him that tables it's for tabular data only. 2007/10/21, James Jeffery <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > It does: http://www.matthew-boulton.ac.uk/ > > The site looks o.k, but as you can see the methods are wrong. > > On 10/21/07, Stuart Foulstone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > You could possibly use how your college's own Website is coded to > > support > > your case. > > > > I don't know which college you're at, but look at how their Website is > > coded - I would be surprised if their still using the methods your > > tutor > > is teaching. > > > > > > -- > > Stuart Foulstone. > > http://www.bigeasyweb.co.uk > > BigEasy Web Design > > 69 Flockton Court > > Rockingham Street > > Sheffield > > S1 4EB > > > > Tel. 07751 413451 > > > > On Sat, October 20, 2007 10:18 am, James Jeffery wrote: > > > Good Morning! > > > > > > Here is my problem. Im at college this year, preparing for University > > > (Hopefully Birmingham) to > > > study Software Engineering. At college we have a class on a Thursday > > > called > > > "Web Development" > > > and the guy thats teaching the class in an absolute joke, no > > seriously, he > > > is. > > > > > > He is teaching students how to create web pages using Dreamweaver in > > > "Design" view, and then > > > telling students if they can do this, they are Web Designers. > > > > > > I was angry, i instantly replied and questioned his knowledge on HTML > > and > > > asked the age old question: > > > "What are tables in HTML used for?", he replied "To lay out web pages > > and > > > for tabled data", i replied with > > > "wrong", he laughed and told me he knows what he is talking about. > > > > > > I seriously want to raise a huge issue at the college, but im not sure > > how > > > to do it. This guy is on 22k+ > > > a year, and cannot even teach people correctly, he may have been a pro > > > back > > > in the days when tables > > > were acceptable to lay out web pages, but in todays world he is a > > fool. > > > > > > Its half term now, we have an assignment to complete using > > Dreamweaver, > > > and > > > he said i have to use > > > tables, its not a problem, i will do as the assignment requests. I > > will > > > walk > > > the extra mile and create the > > > same page without tables, with semantics, with accessibility in mind > > and > > > without the bloated mark-up, > > > and then write a essay comparing the both. > > > > > > What power do i have (if any) to try and get the college to understand > > > they > > > cannot use a cowboy to > > > teach tomorrows computer experts. Should i use my essay and examples > > and > > > take it to the head of > > > the college? I really don't know how to go about this, but its > > definatly a > > > problem. > > > > > > I really am angry and annoyed, you pay money to be taught the correct > > > methods. People who don't > > > understand are fine, they will believe him, and thats the shocking > > part > > > about it all. > > > > > > I await some advice. > > > > > > > > > ******************************************************************* > > > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > > > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > > > Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > ******************************************************************* > > > > > > > > > > ******************************************************************* > > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > > Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > ******************************************************************* > > > > > > ******************************************************************* > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > ******************************************************************* > ************************************************************** Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ************************************************************** __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? 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