Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-14 Thread Drew Trusz
Legally courts can and will regulate companies. It's been happening for years! We tell them the required minimum wage, the maximum working hours, we regulate overtime, we tell them to put wheelchair ramps in front of their doors, we zone their buildings, we make them get permits, we do health

Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-13 Thread Jude Robinson
Stuart Sherwood wrote: Any such aberration of 'rights' that necessarily violates the legitimate rights of others is destructive to our liberty. True when the others are people. But we're discussing a scenario where the other is a company, and that scenario has radically different

Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-13 Thread Stuart Sherwood
Jude Robinson wrote: Only companies/institutions are required to comply with accessibility legislation (in the UK, and US as far as I'm aware). Accessibility legislation does not require individuals to comply with it, rightly so. I thought individuals owned and worked in companies...

Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-13 Thread Christian Montoya
On 2/13/06, Duckworth, Nigel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Stuart Sherwood wrote: I believe there is no right to access services. Any such aberration of 'rights' that necessarily violates the legitimate rights of others is destructive to our liberty. I agree. There is no such thing as the

Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-12 Thread Spark
Just a quick note: Here in Brazil, some of the big cities have more than 10% of their buses adapted to wheelchairs. it's not that hard. See? it's always an excuse because they will spend money with people who will not pay that bill. spark On 2/12/06, Nic [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: To

Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-12 Thread Spark
and they just fized that 'one' problem on target.com http://www.webstandards.org/buzz/archive/2006_02.html#a000605 overnight. a few hours. spark On 2/12/06, Spark [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just a quick note: Here in Brazil, some of the big cities have more than 10% of their buses

RE: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-12 Thread Nic
some of the big cities have more than 10% of their buses adapted to wheelchairs. Well, that's a good *start*... But... It's still discrimination. How would *you* like being told that you can only take one in ten buses? Here's a bit more about this particular issue

Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-11 Thread Paul Ross
I saw the Target Sued story over on Cnet (http://tinyurl.com/b3u29). What was amazing to me was the response from a Mr Troy Gaddis in the talkback section (bottom of above page under the title This is Absurd. Here's a highlight: Why do people with disibilites think they DESERVE compensation for

Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-11 Thread Christian Montoya
On 2/11/06, Paul Ross [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I saw the Target Sued story over on Cnet (http://tinyurl.com/b3u29). What was amazing to me was the response from a Mr Troy Gaddis in the talkback section (bottom of above page under the title This is Absurd. Here's a highlight: Why do people

Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-11 Thread Designer
Christian Montoya wrote: Sounds like he has no idea how simple it is to make a website accessible. But that's not the big deal here. If you look at all the comments at Cnet, you'll see that a lot of people agree with Mr. Gaddis... which brings to light a bigger social problem behind the fight

RE: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-11 Thread Nic
Far better to approach the problem by emsuggestingem/ that it's a 'good idea' to do x and y because the resulting site can be visually identical but more accessible. Screaming and shouting and making money for lawyers is just fanaticism, and considerably discouraging. The answer, like

Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-11 Thread Stuart Sherwood
At which point does one's right to do as one chooses start stepping on another one's right to access services? I believe there is no right to access services. Any such aberration of 'rights' that necessarily violates the legitimate rights of others is destructive to our liberty. The

Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-11 Thread Lynne Pope
On 2/12/06, Stuart Sherwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At which point does one's right to do as one chooses start stepping on another one's right to access services? I believe there is no right to access services. Any such aberration of 'rights' that necessarily violates the legitimate

Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-11 Thread Patrick H. Lauke
Designer wrote: The objections cited, such as the sarcastic suggestion that we sue the radio because the deaf can't hear it, does actually make a valid point and highlights the senseless extremes that one could go to. The nature of radio itself is purely the transmission of audio signals.

Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-11 Thread Lachlan Hunt
Nic wrote: At which point does one's right to do as one chooses start stepping on another one's right to access services? Would we even *have* this discussion if people being refused access to websites were black and the refusal was because they are black? I really don't see the point you are

RE: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-11 Thread Nic
There is no difference between refusing access to someone based on physical/mental disability and someone based on their race, culture, religion, etc. It's unnecessary discrimination either way. Lachlan, that was, actually, my point. Only people don't recognise that refusing access to

Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-10 Thread Ian Anderson
Absalom Media wrote: Amount of Javascript disabled based on various client profiles I've got: My site: Less than 0.1% Commercial music site: Less than 0.5% Commercial / education health care site: Less than 0.7% What methodology are you using to identify humans as opposed to search engines

RE: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-10 Thread kvnmcwebn
What methodology are you using to identify humans as opposed to search engines and other robots? -sorry this doesnt awnser your question and maybe this its not worth mentioning- Even hotmail.com doesnt work if javascript is disabled. That says something i think. Of course there is the search

Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-10 Thread Rob Mientjes
On 09/02/06, Conyers, Dwayne, Mr [C] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: While I believe accessibility is an important design issue, is there legal precedent for suing someone for poor design? It seems a bit like suing Mickey Dees for spilling hot coffee in the lap... Yes, but spilling hot coffee in the

Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-10 Thread Marilyn Langfeld
On Feb 10, 2006, at 8:24 AM, Rob Mientjes wrote: On 09/02/06, Conyers, Dwayne, Mr [C] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: While I believe accessibility is an important design issue, is there legal precedent for suing someone for poor design? It seems a bit like suing Mickey Dees for spilling hot

RE: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-10 Thread Patrick Lauke
Conyers, Dwayne, Mr While I believe accessibility is an important design issue, is there legal precedent for suing someone for poor design? Does the Ramada/Priceline debacle count? http://news.com.com/Travel+sites+agree+to+changes+for+the+blind/2100-1038_3-5318568.html P

RE: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-10 Thread Dennis Lapcewich
Nic, Whoops! I missed that subtle distinction between the ADA and the Rehab Act. It's been a rough week. Slap me with a blink tag. In any case, I really would like to see a Section 508 (or ADA) case here in the States brought against a private company. The law itself needs a court challenge

Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-10 Thread Laura
In the store itself they wouldn't see any better but would still pick out shirts, pants, etc. It is the alt tags that make the difference for their software to read a site. Without the alt tags the software doesn't tell them if it's a shirt or a wheelbarrow. LauraOn 2/9/06, Leslie Riggs [EMAIL

Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-10 Thread Mark Harris
Dennis Lapcewich wrote: In any case, I really would like to see a Section 508 (or ADA) case here in the States brought against a private company. According to http://www.phillipsnizer.com/internetlib.htm, there has been a Court challenge under the ADA and the private company won: Access

[WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-09 Thread Marilyn Langfeld
I just read about this on another list. I thought others might be interested. Target is a large, stylish but also discount, retailer in the US. This should be a big case for web accessibility. __ Blind Cal student sues Target. Suit charges retailer's Web site cannot be used by the

RE: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-09 Thread Ted Drake
] Target sued over non-accessible site I just read about this on another list. I thought others might be interested. Target is a large, stylish but also discount, retailer in the US. This should be a big case for web accessibility. __ Blind Cal student sues Target. Suit charges retailer's Web

Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-09 Thread Al Sparber
From: Ted Drake [EMAIL PROTECTED] This has the potential for making some positive improvements in the commercial web sphere. Target is not blind to good design. Their new prescription bottles have been hailed as one of the best designs of the last decade (I think they were designed by a

Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-09 Thread Al Sparber
From: Joseph R. B. Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] The only thing I don't understand is how on earth does a blind person pick out items that rely on a photograph (clothes etc)... If you go to Target's home page, you will find, in the left column what appear to be headlines describing sale and

Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-09 Thread Leslie Riggs
The only thing I don't understand is how on earth does a blind person pick out items that rely on a photograph (clothes etc)... If you go to Target's home page, you will find, in the left column what appear to be headlines describing sale and special items. They are images - and there is

RE: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-09 Thread Nic
Dennis, thanks for that link, an interesting opinion, and one that flies in the face of several court cases throughout the US (in particular Florida a few years ago) The New York State Attorney General offered a legal opinion that all web site originating within that state are subject to

Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-09 Thread Minh D. Tran
So I have a question, so even if it's Alt Text, how would a blind person even see to read?Al Sparber [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: "Joseph R. B. Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> The only thing I don't understand is how on earth does a blind person pick out items that rely on a photograph (clothes

Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-09 Thread Rickshaw Driver
Alt text is read aloud be a screen reader for those who have sight disabilities I believe. Minh D. Tran wrote: So I have a question, so even if it's Alt Text, how would a blind person even see to read? Al Sparber [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: "Joseph R. B. Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-09 Thread Al Sparber
From: Minh D. Tran [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2006 2:32 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site So I have a question, so even if it's Alt Text, how would a blind person even see to read? - It's read

Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-09 Thread Donna Jones
Blind Cal student sues Target. Suit charges retailer's Web site cannot be used by the sightless. ... What I hope is that Target and other online merchants will realize how important it is to reach 1.3 million people in this nation and the growing baby-boomer population who will also be

Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-09 Thread russ - maxdesign
So I have a question, so even if it's Alt Text, how would a blind person even see to read? Minh, Apart from screen readers that others have mentioned, there are also devices such as refreshable braille devices, which transfer text into braille: http://www.flickr.com/photos/russweakley/58957885/

Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-09 Thread Minh D. Tran
thanks Russruss - maxdesign [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So I have a question, so even if it's Alt Text, how would a blind person even see to read?Minh,Apart from screen readers that others have mentioned, there are also devicessuch as refreshable braille devices, which transfer text into

Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-09 Thread Angus at InfoForce Services
As a blind web site designer who has his alt tag reading protion of his screen reading software. I would say their should be both images and a text description. I have come across many fully sighted (20/20 Vision( persons that have difficulty with even the simplest images. I like to provide a

Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-09 Thread Patrick H. Lauke
Angus at InfoForce Services wrote: As a blind web site designer who has his alt tag reading protion of his screen reading software. I would say their should be both images and a text description. I have come across many fully sighted (20/20 Vision( persons that have difficulty with even the

Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-09 Thread Angus at InfoForce Services
Patrick which uses display:none and can't be shown without javascript, among other things) Most people have JAVAScript turned off, so I started to learn PHP. Angus MacKinnon MacKinnon Crest Saying Latin - Audentes Fortuna Juvat English - Fortune Assists The Daring Web page

Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-09 Thread Lachlan Hunt
Angus at InfoForce Services wrote: Most people have JAVAScript turned off, According to what statistics? I think you'll find most people actually have it turned on. -- Lachlan Hunt http://lachy.id.au/ ** The discussion list for

Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-09 Thread matt andrews
On 10/02/06, Lachlan Hunt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Angus at InfoForce Services wrote: Most people have JAVAScript turned off, According to what statistics? I think you'll find most people actually have it turned on. Indeed. I can report from some recent testing on the sites I work on

Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-09 Thread Angus at InfoForce Services
Lachlan and Matt Thank you for the information. I should recheck. Do you have information about International web users? Angus MacKinnon MacKinnon Crest Saying Latin - Audentes Fortuna Juvat English - Fortune Assists The Daring Web page http://www.infoforce-services.com Choroideremia

Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-09 Thread matt andrews
On 10/02/06, Angus at InfoForce Services [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lachlan and Matt Thank you for the information. I should recheck. Do you have information about International web users? For the sites I referred to as having less than 0.1% of members with Javascript turned off, the users are

Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-09 Thread Absalom Media
matt andrews wrote: On 10/02/06, Lachlan Hunt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Angus at InfoForce Services wrote: Most people have JAVAScript turned off, According to what statistics? I think you'll find most people actually have it turned on. Indeed. I can report from some recent testing on