RE: [WSG] hr / or CSS3 Border Background
Hi, tee said: However, seeing that HTML 5 has given hr tag a new purpose: http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#the-hr-element http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#flow-content-0 quote: The hr element represents a paragraph-level thematic break, e.g. a scene change in a story, or a transition to another topic within a section of a reference book. In HTML5 doesn't the section element do that job? To be honest, I've always felt hr seems a strange element to use in any circumstance. Chris This message has been scanned for malware by SurfControl plc. www.surfcontrol.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] hr / or CSS3 Border Background
Chris Taylor wrote: Hi, tee said: However, seeing that HTML 5 has given hr tag a new purpose: http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#the-hr-element http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#flow-content-0 quote: The hr element represents a paragraph-level thematic break, e.g. a scene change in a story, or a transition to another topic within a section of a reference book. In HTML5 doesn't the section element do that job? To be honest, I've always felt hr seems a strange element to use in any circumstance. Well, I work arse-backwards from the way most books on Web design approach things. I gather content first, then mark it up with HTML so that it reads sensibly without CSS, only then adding structural elements and CSS. In that context, it sometimes make sense to add HR elements... Cordially, David -- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] hr / or CSS3 Border Background
On 9 Aug 2009, at 03:53, tee wrote: Then my question, what about those who prefer to stick with XHTML? By Stick with XHTML do you mean not to move to an unstable, draft markup language? Plenty of people are happily writing HTML 4.01 and avoiding the pain of Appendix C. The hr tag is deprecated. Which specification deprecated it? -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] hr / or CSS3 Border Background
After reading the following article, I ask which is more semantic, using the
hr / element with a background or using the CSS3 border background
property?
Well... markup has semantics/semantic meaning, CSS is style applied over the
top but is not part of the document's content. Applying the graphic with CSS
only means you are saying it's purely visual and not part of the content at
all... and I don't think that's what you really intend.
So if you are communicating a break in content (which is the semantically
meaningful concept), include the hr / even if you then hide it and display
a border when CSS is applied. On my blog I do just that, with hr
class=hidden /
and
.hidden {
position: absolute;
left: -5000px;
width: 4000px;
overflow: hidden;
}
I should really change the class to assistive as it's not actually
hidden from everybody, but that's a finer point. Anyway, with the HRs
hidden from view with CSS I then have a design with very clear breaks in the
content, which is a visual representation of the underlying semantics.
cheers,
Ben
--
--- http://weblog.200ok.com.au/
--- The future has arrived; it's just not
--- evenly distributed. - William Gibson
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Re: [WSG] hr / or CSS3 Border Background
On Aug 9, 2009, at 1:36 AM, David Dorward wrote: On 9 Aug 2009, at 03:53, tee wrote: Then my question, what about those who prefer to stick with XHTML? By Stick with XHTML do you mean not to move to an unstable, draft markup language? Plenty of people are happily writing HTML 4.01 and avoiding the pain of Appendix C. But isn't it going to have XHTML2 as well? I am not a pioneer but a over-work, over exhausted web worker who barely keep up with latest technology, so I do not study HTML5 nor XHTML2 like many of you do. I do pay attention when I see articles regarding HTML 5 surface in many blog-dom in the past month. There are CMS that rely on XML (one I know and work on every day is the Magento) and this caught my eyes sometimes ago: Things HTML5 does not do: • Does not favor XML facilities (what does this mean? What impact will it have for sites that were built in XHTML strict and CMS that parse XML (not just the RSS feed)? ) • Does not avoid scripting • Does not consider integration with the SemWeb a priority (and what does this mean? Is SemWeb semantic web? Both Yahoo and Google adapted Semantic Web, what impact will it have for SEO?) • No arbitrary namespaces. Things XHTML2 does not do • Does not support existing contention the same way that HTML5 does • Does not precisely define UA behavior • Does not handle errors non-draconically (uses catch fire and fail error handling) • No arbitrary namespaces. So, people like me who are in the web development, but our well-being are on the mercy of you pioneers, HTML5, XHTML2.0 authors and W3C's , I have had this question since the first time I read about HTML5 draft years ago from this list, that there had long been battles between html 4.0 strict and XHTML strict, none are perfect and those who favored XHTML led some believe this is the future of web standards and I stick to it and I am not alone. Since none are perfect, now you guys were moving forward, working hard to bringing a whole new standards to us, why can't the HTML5 and XHTML2.0 working group just give us ONE standards? Thus far the impression I got from many articles I have read, is that HTML5 will be the standards, is better. Is that right? Sorry, I am not being sarcastic here. And I don't suppose this is a Mac Vs PC kind of choice that you pick what works best for you, or choose to use Opera or Google Chrome or Firefox. The hr tag is deprecated. Which specification deprecated it? This is what I learned: All presentation attributes of the hr element were deprecated in HTML 4.01, and are not supported in XHTML 1.0 Strict DTD. In gassho, tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] hr / or CSS3 Border Background
On Sun, August 9, 2009 3:53 am, tee wrote: ... However, seeing that HTML 5 has given hr tag a new purpose: http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#the-hr-element http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#flow-content-0 quote: The hr element represents a paragraph-level thematic break, e.g. a scene change in a story, or a transition to another topic within a section of a reference book. So the decision is circumstantial, sometime you use hr, and sometimes use CSS 3 border background property. Then my question, what about those who prefer to stick with XHTML? The hr tag is deprecated. In gassho, tee When the hr tag is not used as a purely visual element (which is bad practice), it separates two distinct pieces of content but gives no information about their relationship. hr / deprecated in XHTML and the correct mark-up is to use a header which helps to help define that relationship. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] hr / or CSS3 Border Background
On 9 Aug 2009, at 10:38, tee wrote: On Aug 9, 2009, at 1:36 AM, David Dorward wrote: On 9 Aug 2009, at 03:53, tee wrote: Then my question, what about those who prefer to stick with XHTML? By Stick with XHTML do you mean not to move to an unstable, draft markup language? Plenty of people are happily writing HTML 4.01 and avoiding the pain of Appendix C. But isn't it going to have XHTML2 as well? Given that the XHTML working group is being wound up — it seems unlikely. Whatever 'it' is. Things HTML5 does not do: • Does not favor XML facilities (what does this mean? What impact will it have for sites that were built in XHTML strict and CMS that parse XML (not just the RSS feed)? ) Rubbish. It has an XML serialization. • Does not avoid scripting What does this mean? Scripting has its place. • Does not consider integration with the SemWeb a priority (and what does this mean? Is SemWeb semantic web? Both Yahoo and Google adapted Semantic Web, what impact will it have for SEO?) The relationships to RDFa and other semweb technologies are some of the more unstable parts of the HTML 5 draft. So, people like me who are in the web development, but our well- being are on the mercy of you pioneers, HTML5, XHTML2.0 authors and W3C's If you don't like it. Participate in the process. http://www.w3.org/html/wg/ -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] hr / or CSS3 Border Background
Sorry, I missed this bit when I last responded. On 9 Aug 2009, at 10:38, tee wrote: Which specification deprecated it? This is what I learned: All presentation attributes of the hr element were deprecated in HTML 4.01 Deprecating some attributes on an element does not deprecate the element itself. -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] hr / or CSS3 Border Background
On Aug 8, 2009, at 7:05 PM, Bushidodeep wrote: Hi, After reading the following article, I ask which is more semantic, using the hr / element with a background or using the CSS3 border background property? C http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2008/09/09/the-hr-contest-results-download-your-fresh-hr-line-now/ I never use hr tag, find it unsemantical and redundant. Before CSS3 is fully supported by all important browsers, the semantic way I use is utilizing one of the existing div or type selector. Site like smashing magazine feeds hype which is unhelpful for web standards and accessibility–but this is what the site's purpose is: vanity, kitsch and hype. Oops, I hope the site owner isn't a member here :-) However, seeing that HTML 5 has given hr tag a new purpose: http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#the-hr-element http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#flow-content-0 quote: The hr element represents a paragraph-level thematic break, e.g. a scene change in a story, or a transition to another topic within a section of a reference book. So the decision is circumstantial, sometime you use hr, and sometimes use CSS 3 border background property. Then my question, what about those who prefer to stick with XHTML? The hr tag is deprecated. In gassho, tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] hr / or CSS3 Border Background
On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 9:05 PM, Bushidodeep field.ni...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, After reading the following article, I ask which is more semantic, using the hr / element with a background or using the CSS3 border background property? C http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2008/09/09/the-hr-contest-results-download-your-fresh-hr-line-now/ the way i see it, is if you are separating content, then use the hr/ element. i ran across this question when updating my site and got positive response for the hr/ because i was separating content from other portions of the page. consider your borders if someone surfs with css turned off. in fact, consider your design gone with css turned off. cheers, dwain -- Fear of the devil is one way of doubting God. - Kahlil Gibran *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] hr / or CSS3 Border Background
Hi, Thanks, SMASH has some good contributions. As with any resource, absorb what is useful, reject the useless. Does any DOM conditional exist for checking CSS3 support in user agents? C On Aug 8, 2009, at 7:53 PM, tee wrote: On Aug 8, 2009, at 7:05 PM, Bushidodeep wrote: Hi, After reading the following article, I ask which is more semantic, using the hr / element with a background or using the CSS3 border background property? C http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2008/09/09/the-hr-contest-results-download-your-fresh-hr-line-now/ I never use hr tag, find it unsemantical and redundant. Before CSS3 is fully supported by all important browsers, the semantic way I use is utilizing one of the existing div or type selector. Site like smashing magazine feeds hype which is unhelpful for web standards and accessibility–but this is what the site's purpose is: vanity, kitsch and hype. Oops, I hope the site owner isn't a member here :-) However, seeing that HTML 5 has given hr tag a new purpose: http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#the-hr-element http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#flow-content-0 quote: The hr element represents a paragraph-level thematic break, e.g. a scene change in a story, or a transition to another topic within a section of a reference book. So the decision is circumstantial, sometime you use hr, and sometimes use CSS 3 border background property. Then my question, what about those who prefer to stick with XHTML? The hr tag is deprecated. In gassho, tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
