Re: [WSG] Is it a good practice to have 'Back to Top' link?
On Sep 30, 2008, at 2:00 PM, Kepler Gelotte wrote: I am always curious why so rarely people in this list ever mention Dean Edwards' IE7. Maybe it is because it's a JavaScript solution. If you have JavaScript disabled, you are back to where you started. Of course, this may be a better solution than not trying to support IE6 at all which I read on this list some people are suggesting. I still write my CSS quite conservatively, that is, use selectors/ attributes that are not supported by IE6 mindfully. As far as IE6 concerns, the layout will not break, and no block should goes out of place that might cripple the site under IE6. I make sure to unplug the IE7.js before the delivery of the site just to see how the page/site holds up in IE6 and if anything stops working. So to me IE7 script is more a cosmetic remedy. Few of my clients are from traditional print media background, they care more the look than JS being turned off by users. tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Is it a good practice to have 'Back to Top' link?
Thank you everyone for sharing your thoughts and commenting. After reading through the responses to my original post, I'm trying to frame a conclusion here. But first, a little website background: - target audience don't have much computer background - majority of target audience use IE 6/7 - since it's an academic site, I think many users would like to print out the page to read - the page includes references Personally, I prefer not to have 'Return to top' links as I don't click on them and also feel it is annoying. But, my target audience may expect or use those links as the 'Return to top' links have been present on the site for the last 10 years and I think my client will also prefer to have them. Therefore, the use of 'Return to top' link will be required unless I can prove to my client that users don't click them via studies, research or user feedback, not just only from my personal experience. I think the solution I found to be best suited for me is to make a 'Return to top' link appearing on the page as neatly as possible and use CSS for printer-friendly version (not include those links). Perhaps, implement something like 'sticky sidebar' or 'position fixed' to present the 'Return to top' link rather than adding it after each section is another option I look favourably at. Obviously, I need to work out on IE6 for this. http://www.derekallard.com/blog/post/conditionally-sticky-sidebar http://www.nowcss.com/javascript/emulating-position-fixed-in-ie-6-below Any thoughts? Thanks, Joe On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 8:56 AM, Gunlaug Sørtun [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: May I suggest that we fix an Up link at the bottom and a series of section tabs and Skip to ... at the top of the window - 'position: fixed' that is. Should work on all but the smallest windows and in all the latest browsers, and are easy to reposition or turn off for print. IE6 will have to pull a little extra, but should otherwise cooperate well. regards Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Is it a good practice to have 'Back to Top' link?
On Sep 30, 2008, at 1:18 AM, Joe Chiang wrote: Perhaps, implement something like 'sticky sidebar' or 'position fixed' to present the 'Return to top' link rather than adding it after each section is another option I look favourably at. Obviously, I need to work out on IE6 for this. http://www.derekallard.com/blog/post/conditionally-sticky-sidebar http://www.nowcss.com/javascript/emulating-position-fixed-in-ie-6- below Any thoughts? I am always curious why so rarely people in this list ever mention Dean Edwards' IE7. Just 11kb and fixes so many IE bugs. Back went it was heavy (over 120kb I think), I have already using it as it has improved my productivity as far as fixing IE bugs concerns. http://dean.edwards.name/IE7/ tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Is it a good practice to have 'Back to Top' link?
Robin Shi wrote: In my experience, position: fixed seems not work with IE. It is supported by IE7. As a concept, however, it is pretty much incompatible with horizontal navigation bars plus links with fragment identifiers. -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Is it a good practice to have 'Back to Top' link?
Joe Chiang wrote: Perhaps, implement something like 'sticky sidebar' or 'position fixed' to present the 'Return to top' link rather than adding it after each section is another option I look favourably at. Obviously, I need to work out on IE6 for this. http://www.derekallard.com/blog/post/conditionally-sticky-sidebar http://www.nowcss.com/javascript/emulating-position-fixed-in-ie-6-below Any thoughts? I collected my thoughts on 'fixed' here a couple of years ago... http://www.gunlaug.no/contents/wd_additions_15.html ...and used IE-expressions to enhance my home and ToC pages in IE6 for quite a while... http://www.gunlaug.no/main-en.html IE-expressions, complete with the jerkiness fix, creates a good illusion, but they rely on script-support as much as any other script and do put a load on computer resources over time. Apart from that they can be made to work better that the real 'position: fixed' since one can conditionally manipulate both axis independently. regards Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Is it a good practice to have 'Back to Top' link?
Hi Joe, Therefore, the use of 'Return to top' link will be required unless I can prove to my client that users don't click them via studies, research or user feedback, not just only from my personal experience. I think you answered your own question there... Can you do some studies or research (such as implementing crazy egg or similar, observing the users etc.) into how people use the current site and the back to top links on it? You may find that they are used a lot, and that site visitors find them very useful, regardless of what our own opinions and feelings are. You may also find that they are not used at all, in which case there is no need to include them in a redesign. Likewise, continue testing on the new redesigned site to see whether the back to top links are required on your new design, or what the best implementation (sticky sidebar, fixed position, etc.) of the back to top links is. :) Rach -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joe Chiang Sent: 30 September 2008 09:19 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Is it a good practice to have 'Back to Top' link? Thank you everyone for sharing your thoughts and commenting. After reading through the responses to my original post, I'm trying to frame a conclusion here. But first, a little website background: - target audience don't have much computer background - majority of target audience use IE 6/7 - since it's an academic site, I think many users would like to print out the page to read - the page includes references Personally, I prefer not to have 'Return to top' links as I don't click on them and also feel it is annoying. But, my target audience may expect or use those links as the 'Return to top' links have been present on the site for the last 10 years and I think my client will also prefer to have them. Therefore, the use of 'Return to top' link will be required unless I can prove to my client that users don't click them via studies, research or user feedback, not just only from my personal experience. I think the solution I found to be best suited for me is to make a 'Return to top' link appearing on the page as neatly as possible and use CSS for printer-friendly version (not include those links). Perhaps, implement something like 'sticky sidebar' or 'position fixed' to present the 'Return to top' link rather than adding it after each section is another option I look favourably at. Obviously, I need to work out on IE6 for this. http://www.derekallard.com/blog/post/conditionally-sticky-sidebar http://www.nowcss.com/javascript/emulating-position-fixed-in-ie-6-below Any thoughts? Thanks, Joe On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 8:56 AM, Gunlaug Sørtun [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: May I suggest that we fix an Up link at the bottom and a series of section tabs and Skip to ... at the top of the window - 'position: fixed' that is. Should work on all but the smallest windows and in all the latest browsers, and are easy to reposition or turn off for print. IE6 will have to pull a little extra, but should otherwise cooperate well. regards Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Is it a good practice to have 'Back to Top' link?
Hey every1... Just a silly idea, but what about using a background image, with a transparent gif over it, the gif is the return to top link... Being part of the background it wont print, you can make it PART of the background without it looking like a special link etc.. Just a random thought that I pondered.. Hope it helps.. David -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rachel Radford Sent: Tuesday, 30 September 2008 8:23 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Is it a good practice to have 'Back to Top' link? Hi Joe, Therefore, the use of 'Return to top' link will be required unless I can prove to my client that users don't click them via studies, research or user feedback, not just only from my personal experience. I think you answered your own question there... Can you do some studies or research (such as implementing crazy egg or similar, observing the users etc.) into how people use the current site and the back to top links on it? You may find that they are used a lot, and that site visitors find them very useful, regardless of what our own opinions and feelings are. You may also find that they are not used at all, in which case there is no need to include them in a redesign. Likewise, continue testing on the new redesigned site to see whether the back to top links are required on your new design, or what the best implementation (sticky sidebar, fixed position, etc.) of the back to top links is. :) Rach -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joe Chiang Sent: 30 September 2008 09:19 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Is it a good practice to have 'Back to Top' link? Thank you everyone for sharing your thoughts and commenting. After reading through the responses to my original post, I'm trying to frame a conclusion here. But first, a little website background: - target audience don't have much computer background - majority of target audience use IE 6/7 - since it's an academic site, I think many users would like to print out the page to read - the page includes references Personally, I prefer not to have 'Return to top' links as I don't click on them and also feel it is annoying. But, my target audience may expect or use those links as the 'Return to top' links have been present on the site for the last 10 years and I think my client will also prefer to have them. Therefore, the use of 'Return to top' link will be required unless I can prove to my client that users don't click them via studies, research or user feedback, not just only from my personal experience. I think the solution I found to be best suited for me is to make a 'Return to top' link appearing on the page as neatly as possible and use CSS for printer-friendly version (not include those links). Perhaps, implement something like 'sticky sidebar' or 'position fixed' to present the 'Return to top' link rather than adding it after each section is another option I look favourably at. Obviously, I need to work out on IE6 for this. http://www.derekallard.com/blog/post/conditionally-sticky-sidebar http://www.nowcss.com/javascript/emulating-position-fixed-in-ie-6-below Any thoughts? Thanks, Joe On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 8:56 AM, Gunlaug Sørtun [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: May I suggest that we fix an Up link at the bottom and a series of section tabs and Skip to ... at the top of the window - 'position: fixed' that is. Should work on all but the smallest windows and in all the latest browsers, and are easy to reposition or turn off for print. IE6 will have to pull a little extra, but should otherwise cooperate well. regards Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.7.5/1698 - Release Date: 9/29/2008 7:25 PM *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help:
Re: [WSG] Is it a good practice to have 'Back to Top' link?
David Fuller :: magickweb wrote: Just a silly idea, but what about using a background image, with a transparent gif over it, the gif is the return to top link... Being part of the background it wont print, you can make it PART of the background without it looking like a special link etc.. Overcomplicated and less accessible then simply making them display: none in an @media print stylesheet. -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Is it a good practice to have 'Back to Top' link?
I am always curious why so rarely people in this list ever mention Dean Edwards' IE7. Maybe it is because it's a JavaScript solution. If you have JavaScript disabled, you are back to where you started. Of course, this may be a better solution than not trying to support IE6 at all which I read on this list some people are suggesting. I personally haven't tried his script yet myself. I have read many positive reviews about it though. Best regards, Kepler Gelotte Neighbor Webmaster, Inc. 156 Normandy Dr., Piscataway, NJ 08854 www.neighborwebmaster.com phone/fax: (732) 302-0904 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***BEGIN:VCARD VERSION:2.1 N:Gelotte;Kepler;;Mr. FN:Kepler Gelotte ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) ORG:Neighbor Webmaster TITLE:Web Designer TEL;WORK;VOICE:(732) 302-0904 TEL;WORK;FAX:(732) 302-0904 ADR;WORK:;;156 Normandy Dr;Piscataway;NJ;08854;United States of America LABEL;WORK;ENCODING=QUOTED-PRINTABLE:156 Normandy Dr=0D=0APiscataway, NJ 08854=0D=0AUnited States of America URL;WORK:http://www.neighborwebmaster.com EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:[EMAIL PROTECTED] REV:20070415T052107Z END:VCARD
RE: [WSG] Is it a good practice to have 'Back to Top' link?
How about the tabs with JS? It visually breaks the page into small parts and switch by tabs. Robin -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joe Chiang Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 3:49 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Is it a good practice to have 'Back to Top' link? Hi all, I have some VERY long pages in the website I maintain. Currently, I insert 'Back to Top' after every section in the page. Sometimes, I feel they are disturbing and am not sure if there is any better way to do it or don't insert them at all. Of course, splitting the page into smaller pages is the simplest way out, but for our application, the page has to contain all the information on the same page. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Cheers, Joe *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Is it a good practice to have 'Back to Top' link?
Robin Shi wrote: How about the tabs with JS? It visually breaks the page into small parts and switch by tabs. So - the visitor comes, they read to the bottom, then they have to scroll to the top and activate the next tab (and repeat). I'm not too keen on this idea. -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Is it a good practice to have 'Back to Top' link?
Perhaps the solution then is an accordian approach? Henrik Madsen Generator +61 8 9387 1250 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.igenerator.com.au On 29/09/2008, at 4:19 PM, David Dorward wrote: Robin Shi wrote: How about the tabs with JS? It visually breaks the page into small parts and switch by tabs. So - the visitor comes, they read to the bottom, then they have to scroll to the top and activate the next tab (and repeat). I'm not too keen on this idea. -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Is it a good practice to have 'Back to Top' link?
I think your users know where 'Home' key is situated on their keyboards!:) 2008/9/29, Henrik Madsen [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Perhaps the solution then is an accordian approach? Henrik Madsen Generator +61 8 9387 1250 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.igenerator.com.au On 29/09/2008, at 4:19 PM, David Dorward wrote: Robin Shi wrote: How about the tabs with JS? It visually breaks the page into small parts and switch by tabs. So - the visitor comes, they read to the bottom, then they have to scroll to the top and activate the next tab (and repeat). I'm not too keen on this idea. -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Помни, Ты - Воин Света Воли, снегов и ветра Помни, живи не слепо А с верой в Любовь и Свет *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Is it a good practice to have 'Back to Top' link?
Henrik Madsen wrote: Perhaps the solution then is an accordian approach? Perhaps long pages aren't a problem in the first place. -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Is it a good practice to have 'Back to Top' link?
Really? I'll give you ten to one that the majority of PC users have no idea what that key does. Regards, Mike -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ? ??? Sent: 29 September 2008 10:16 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Is it a good practice to have 'Back to Top' link? I think your users know where 'Home' key is situated on their keyboards!:) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Is it a good practice to have 'Back to Top' link?
And you think they guess what 'back to top' link means? In my expirence, I never pressed buttons like 'Back to Top' on web pages. 2008/9/29, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Really? I'll give you ten to one that the majority of PC users have no idea what that key does. Regards, Mike -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ? ??? Sent: 29 September 2008 10:16 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Is it a good practice to have 'Back to Top' link? I think your users know where 'Home' key is situated on their keyboards!:) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Помни, Ты - Воин Света Воли, снегов и ветра Помни, живи не слепо А с верой в Любовь и Свет *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Is it a good practice to have 'Back to Top' link?
That is a different story though: we are not talking about _replacing_ the home key with a link, we are talking about implementing additional affordance - if the user does not recognise it, or prefers to do things differently, then nothing is lost. Whether the additional noise on the page is a slight annoyance to screen reader users, or a major annoyance that must therefore be avoided, is a not a question that I can answer myself. What I can ask, (getting back to the original point) is that people stop referring to 'pages' on the Internet. They are documents, and should therefore not be split in arbitrary fashion. It is particularly annoying when I need to print out a document for off-line use, and discover that I have to do a separate 'print' for each section, and each section then requires 110% of an A4 page, i.e. every second page contains approximately one line, plus repeated footer sections. Regards, Mike -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ? ??? Sent: 29 September 2008 10:46 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Is it a good practice to have 'Back to Top' link? And you think they guess what 'back to top' link means? In my expirence, I never pressed buttons like 'Back to Top' on web pages. 2008/9/29, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Really? I'll give you ten to one that the majority of PC users have no idea what that key does. Regards, Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Is it a good practice to have 'Back to Top' link?
Hi, I'd argue that a 'back to top' link on longer pages is not only a good idea but also what users expect. I have had numerous clients who asked for this link on all pages - even on shorter pages as they feel it is part of a usable page. In my opinion, trying to predict whether or not people know about keyboard shortcuts is more difficult than adjusting the wording of said 'back to top' link to the site's target audience. Prisca On Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 10:45 AM, Александр Паньшин [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And you think they guess what 'back to top' link means? In my expirence, I never pressed buttons like 'Back to Top' on web pages. 2008/9/29, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Really? I'll give you ten to one that the majority of PC users have no idea what that key does. Regards, Mike -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ? ??? Sent: 29 September 2008 10:16 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Is it a good practice to have 'Back to Top' link? I think your users know where 'Home' key is situated on their keyboards!:) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Помни, Ты - Воин Света Воли, снегов и ветра Помни, живи не слепо А с верой в Любовь и Свет *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- • graphiceyedea.co.uk • eyedea.eu • eyelearn.org • -- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Is it a good practice to have 'Back to Top' link?
Hi all, I think especially with netbook computers gaining some market share as tools for searching, the web 'Back to Top' links are well to be used on every page. These computers have screen resolutions of 1024 x 600 pixels or less, so quasi every page may be considered a long page on these machines. Florian Hi, I'd argue that a 'back to top' link on longer pages is not only a good idea but also what users expect. I have had numerous clients who asked for this link on all pages - even on shorter pages as they feel it is part of a usable page. In my opinion, trying to predict whether or not people know about keyboard shortcuts is more difficult than adjusting the wording of said 'back to top' link to the site's target audience. Prisca On Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 10:45 AM, Александр Паньшин [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And you think they guess what 'back to top' link means? In my expirence, I never pressed buttons like 'Back to Top' on web pages. 2008/9/29, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Really? I'll give you ten to one that the majority of PC users have no idea what that key does. Regards, Mike -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ? ??? Sent: 29 September 2008 10:16 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Is it a good practice to have 'Back to Top' link? I think your users know where 'Home' key is situated on their keyboards!:) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Помни, Ты - Воин Света Воли, снегов и ветра Помни, живи не слепо А с верой в Любовь и Свет *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Florian Hamberger Florian Hamberger Computerberatung Pfannstiel 7 83112 Frasdorf Fon: +49 8052 2196 Fax: +49 8052 909111 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Internet: www.fhcb.net Ust-IdNr: DE184195224 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Is it a good practice to have 'Back to Top' link?
No, i meant use the tabs as navigation, the tabs will sit on the top of the page From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Dorward [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, 29 September 2008 18:19 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Is it a good practice to have 'Back to Top' link? Robin Shi wrote: How about the tabs with JS? It visually breaks the page into small parts and switch by tabs. So - the visitor comes, they read to the bottom, then they have to scroll to the top and activate the next tab (and repeat). I'm not too keen on this idea. -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Is it a good practice to have 'Back to Top' link?
On Sep 29, 2008, at 2:58 AM, Prisca schmarsow wrote: I have had numerous clients who asked for this link on all pages - even on shorter pages as they feel it is part of a usable page. In my opinion, trying to predict whether or not people know about keyboard shortcuts is more difficult than adjusting the wording of said 'back to top' link to the site's target audience. Prisca I always have 'back to top' implemented, in my opinion, it's more important than skip to content/skip navigation because we read from top to bottom, not bottom to top. As a user, when visiting site that has long content but doesn't offer a back to top, I get a bit annoyed, one comes to mind is ALAP, which doesn't even have any link in the bottom. Would be nice if we can have 'back to top' for email. tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Is it a good practice to have 'Back to Top' link?
Robin Shi wrote: No, i meant use the tabs as navigation, the tabs will sit on the top of the page Yes? My point stands: So - the visitor comes, they read to the bottom, then they have to scroll to the top and activate the next tab (and repeat). I'm not too keen on this idea. -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Is it a good practice to have 'Back to Top' link?
tee wrote: I always have 'back to top' implemented, in my opinion, it's more important than skip to content/skip navigation because we read from top to bottom, not bottom to top. Most browsers have built in ways of returning to the top easily, most do not have a simply way of jumping to the content (because identifying the content isn't easy). Would be nice if we can have 'back to top' for email. Ctrl / Cmd + Home works in most applications on most systems. -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Is it a good practice to have 'Back to Top' link?
Joe Chiang wrote: I have some VERY long pages in the website I maintain. Currently, I insert 'Back to Top' after every section in the page. Sometimes, I feel they are disturbing and am not sure if there is any better way to do it or don't insert them at all. Unless clients insist on having 'in-page navigation' links, I don't add any. That goes for Back to Top, Skip to Content, Skip to Navigation and all the others. In most cases such links are duplication of browsers own functionality, which is only useful additions in rare cases and in most cases can be seen as unnecessary noise. The exception is links to in-page references or content groups, which I add since browsers can't help much in finding them otherwise. Good example: W3C documents list of links to sections - would be hard to access them without those ToC lists/links. Of course, splitting the page into smaller pages is the simplest way out, but for our application, the page has to contain all the information on the same page. Splitting documents is also something I avoid when I can, almost regardless of how long a document becomes. It takes longer to move between sections and split documents are a nuisance when going to print. Cross-linking separate documents for reference is of course a different matter, and splitting up documents because there's a change of subject also. regards Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Is it a good practice to have 'Back to Top' link?
On Sep 29, 2008, at 2:58 AM, Prisca schmarsow wrote: I have had numerous clients who asked for this link on all pages - even on shorter pages as they feel it is part of a usable page. In my opinion, trying to predict whether or not people know about keyboard shortcuts is more difficult than adjusting the wording of said 'back to top' link to the site's target audience. Prisca I always have 'back to top' implemented, in my opinion, it's more important than skip to content/skip navigation because we read from top to bottom, not bottom to top. As a user, when visiting site that has long content but doesn't offer a back to top, I get a bit annoyed, one comes to mind is ALAP, which doesn't even have any link in the bottom. Would be nice if we can have 'back to top' for email. tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Is it a good practice to have 'Back to Top' link?
Robin Shi wrote: No, i meant use the tabs as navigation, the tabs will sit on the top of the page Yes? My point stands: So - the visitor comes, they read to the bottom, then they have to scroll to the top and activate the next tab (and repeat). I'm not too keen on this idea. -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Is it a good practice to have 'Back to Top' link?
I think it's a good practice, as long as the button actually says to the top or back to the top, I think these work (at least for me) but there are a lot of buttons that have just an arrow pointing up on them and I think that most internet users don't just understand the purpose of this button. Whoah, that's some twisted english here, hope you get what I mean. Regards, -- Krystian - Sunlust Freelance Web Designer in Eastbourne: http://sunlust.net Mobile UK (Orange): 07528 036 337 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Is it a good practice to have 'Back to Top' link?
I find that this approach is not good in this day and age everyone loves to have an interactive approach but the accordian approach in my eyes has not lived up to a good range when it comes to displaying information. Aaron Wheeler On Mon, 29 Sep 2008 16:56:52 +0800, Henrik Madsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Perhaps the solution then is an accordian approach? Henrik Madsen Generator +61 8 9387 1250 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.igenerator.com.au On 29/09/2008, at 4:19 PM, David Dorward wrote: Robin Shi wrote: How about the tabs with JS? It visually breaks the page into small parts and switch by tabs. So - the visitor comes, they read to the bottom, then they have to scroll to the top and activate the next tab (and repeat). I'm not too keen on this idea. -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Is it a good practice to have 'Back to Top' link?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I find that this approach is not good in this day and age everyone loves to have an interactive approach but the accordian approach in my eyes has not lived up to a good range when it comes to displaying information. lived up to a good range?? What the heck does that mean? -- Hassan Schroeder - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Webtuitive Design === (+1) 408-621-3445 === http://webtuitive.com dream. code. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Is it a good practice to have 'Back to Top' link?
On Sep 29, 2008, at 3:26 AM, David Dorward wrote: tee wrote: I always have 'back to top' implemented, in my opinion, it's more important than skip to content/skip navigation because we read from top to bottom, not bottom to top. Most browsers have built in ways of returning to the top easily, most do not have a simply way of jumping to the content (because identifying the content isn't easy). Would be nice if we can have 'back to top' for email. Ctrl / Cmd + Home works in most applications on most systems. Wow, how glad I mentioned this. I had no idea there is short-cut for email. If I, who spends 10 hours a day working on computer don't know, chances are, most folks don't know either. So there is really a good reason to have 'back to top' implemented. I know I can use 'home' key to go up to the page but I never remember to use it. tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Is it a good practice to have 'Back to Top' link?
tee wrote: Wow, how glad I mentioned this. I had no idea there is short-cut for email. If I, who spends 10 hours a day working on computer don't know, chances are, most folks don't know either. So there is really a good reason to have 'back to top' implemented. Dragging the scrollbar up to the top of the page is not really that much of a chore. -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Is it a good practice to have 'Back to Top' link?
tee wrote: Wow, how glad I mentioned this. I had no idea there is short-cut for email. If I, who spends 10 hours a day working on computer don't know, chances are, most folks don't know either. So there is really a good reason to have 'back to top' implemented. On Sep 29, 2008, at 5:23 PM, David Dorward wrote: Dragging the scrollbar up to the top of the page is not really that much of a chore. -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/ I agree with David. In many cases, there are discussions below the last word in an article. So, do you add a link below the article content, as well as comments and discussion? How often to people really read all the way through an article and then navigate back to the top to find more? In a lot of cases people will find an article, read it, get what they need and move on. I guess in theory it's not bad practice, as long as it doesn't get in the way, but i don't think it's detrimental not to have one. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Is it a good practice to have 'Back to Top' link?
I've recently done usability/accessibility testing with ZoomText (the screen magnifier) users and many of these users find frequent 'back to top' links very useful. It saves additional mouse movement and reduces disorientation. Jane -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of tee Sent: Monday, 29 September 2008 20:14 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Is it a good practice to have 'Back to Top' link? On Sep 29, 2008, at 2:58 AM, Prisca schmarsow wrote: I have had numerous clients who asked for this link on all pages - even on shorter pages as they feel it is part of a usable page. In my opinion, trying to predict whether or not people know about keyboard shortcuts is more difficult than adjusting the wording of said 'back to top' link to the site's target audience. Prisca I always have 'back to top' implemented, in my opinion, it's more important than skip to content/skip navigation because we read from top to bottom, not bottom to top. As a user, when visiting site that has long content but doesn't offer a back to top, I get a bit annoyed, one comes to mind is ALAP, which doesn't even have any link in the bottom. Would be nice if we can have 'back to top' for email. tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Notice: The information contained in this email message and any attached files may be confidential information, and may also be the subject of legal professional privilege. If you are not the intended recipient any use, disclosure or copying of this email is unauthorised. If you received this email in error, please notify the DEEWR Service Desk and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Is it a good practice to have 'Back to Top' link?
Oh I did miss the point. You were talking about those small screens and the users really don't like scrolling. In that case, what if put the tabs on the bottom of the page? Robin -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Dorward Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 8:20 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Is it a good practice to have 'Back to Top' link? Robin Shi wrote: No, i meant use the tabs as navigation, the tabs will sit on the top of the page Yes? My point stands: So - the visitor comes, they read to the bottom, then they have to scroll to the top and activate the next tab (and repeat). I'm not too keen on this idea. -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Is it a good practice to have 'Back to Top' link?
Robin Shi wrote: Oh I did miss the point. You were talking about those small screens and the users really don't like scrolling. In that case, what if put the tabs on the bottom of the page? No, I think his point was that the tabs would be at the top of the page and the user would still have to scroll back to make use of them, unless the page was not long enough to take them out of view. Unless you were using frames, and the tabs were outside the content frame. Which would be a Bad Thing(tm). Cheers mark *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Is it a good practice to have 'Back to Top' link?
Thanks Mark for the explanation. For those users who even don't see [Home] key or [back to top] link, I think they may need the extremely good sign to navigate inside the page. We will be still using the tabs as navigation, but not on the top. Put the tabs in a div, then using the JS to position the div. If the page has been scrolled down or up, whatever, the JS will reposition the div to make sure it's not outside of the view. But I don't like this crazy idea because 1. it increases the page-load; 2. a lot of work to do with media=print Cheers, Robin -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Harris Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 9:20 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Is it a good practice to have 'Back to Top' link? Robin Shi wrote: Oh I did miss the point. You were talking about those small screens and the users really don't like scrolling. In that case, what if put the tabs on the bottom of the page? No, I think his point was that the tabs would be at the top of the page and the user would still have to scroll back to make use of them, unless the page was not long enough to take them out of view. Unless you were using frames, and the tabs were outside the content frame. Which would be a Bad Thing(tm). Cheers mark *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Is it a good practice to have 'Back to Top' link?
On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 9:53 AM, Robin Shi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If the page has been scrolled down or up, whatever, the JS will reposition the div to make sure it's not outside of the view. Is it just me, or could you not use position: fixed? -- Blake Haswell http://www.blakehaswell.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Is it a good practice to have 'Back to Top' link?
Hi Blake, In my experience, position: fixed seems not work with IE. Robin -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Blake Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 10:06 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Is it a good practice to have 'Back to Top' link? On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 9:53 AM, Robin Shi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If the page has been scrolled down or up, whatever, the JS will reposition the div to make sure it's not outside of the view. Is it just me, or could you not use position: fixed? -- Blake Haswell http://www.blakehaswell.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Is it a good practice to have 'Back to Top' link?
On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 10:14 AM, Robin Shi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Blake, In my experience, position: fixed seems not work with IE. Robin Ah. I've never actually had to use it. -- Blake Haswell http://www.blakehaswell.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Is it a good practice to have 'Back to Top' link?
Any suggestions would be appreciated. If you have a really really long page I think a back to top is ok. It's unlikely to harm anyone and it's likely to help some users. If the pages have a table of contents with jump links (probably a good idea) then you could also make it a back to table of contents link. Alternatively if you have a skip/jump menu at the start of the page, that makes a logical target without requiring the addition of any extra elements just for top links. Top links are certainly old school; but unlike some other list members I don't think users know how to to hit home or ctrl/cmd-home and so on. I'm constantly surprised at how little the average user knows about computers; and how resistant they are to being told how to use them in better ways. People on this list probably enjoy using computers or at the least know how to use them properly, with all the tips and tricks to make it more efficient. But the majority of users I observe know how to turn the machine on; they know how to click a few things to achieve the bare minimum of tasks with the bare minimum of involvement; they know how to shut it down again; end of story. Just like some people are turn the key, push the pedal, call mechanic when it breaks drivers and others are the more involved type - drive a manual - shift cleanly, watch the revs, drive to conditions, maintain the car properly cheers, Ben -- --- http://weblog.200ok.com.au/ --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Is it a good practice to have 'Back to Top' link?
May I suggest that we fix an Up link at the bottom and a series of section tabs and Skip to ... at the top of the window - 'position: fixed' that is. Should work on all but the smallest windows and in all the latest browsers, and are easy to reposition or turn off for print. IE6 will have to pull a little extra, but should otherwise cooperate well. regards Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
