Re: [WSG] More on understanding html5

2010-01-17 Thread designer


- Original Message - 
From: Keryx Web webmas...@keryx.se

To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Sunday, January 17, 2010 12:32 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] More on understanding html5




2010-01-05 13:59, designer skrev:
 I am getting a bit bogged down with this new stuff!
 I used figure in this case:

figure is still being discussed and no real decision has benn made. The 
proposal to use dt/dd in fugure and details seem to have been shot down 
and new elements for captioning these are being discussed.


Then again, details and or figure might be totally scrapped.

There are other parts of HTML5 that have reached a higher level of 
maturity. One should probably start using them.


BTW. the validator does not change with every spec change. For issues like 
this the best resource to consult is probably HTML5 doctor or the WHAT WG 
help list. (The help list, not the main discussion list.)


***


Hi Lars,

Yes, I am starting to realise that you are right. So many of the features of 
html5 have little or no browser support and the syntax changes often.  The 
standard few 'safe' elements seem to be


section
header
footer
article
nav  and
aside

In my view these don't yet add anything worthwhile to my pages, except 
perhaps better code readability, and this is/can be countered by excessive 
verbosity. My own (somewhat clumsy) efforts can be seen at: 
www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk - here, (on the portfolio page) I have used 
figure with a floated image to present data as we used to do with tables, 
but since I have used the dt and dd approach, it may be consigned to the 
bin anytime soon.


html5 all seems a bit of a mess, at least at this time.

Bob








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Re: [WSG] More on understanding html5

2010-01-05 Thread David Dorward
 
On 5 Jan 2010, at 12:59, designer wrote:
 I used figure in this case:
  
 figure 
   img src=graphics/marramgrass.gif alt=marram grass width=116 
 height=400/
   p style=text-align:center
  Marram Grass
   /p
 /figure

As an aside, you might want to test in Lynx (which is a quick and cheap way to 
get some idea of how any non-graphical user agent is likely to encounter your 
data - including GoogleBot and any screen reader).

marram gress
Marram Grass

… isn't very useful.

 So, is the validator wrong? 
Yes.
 And, if so, where do I get guidance as I bumble along?

The most recent draft of the specification. Other users. Following the working 
group mailing list. 

Remember, HTML5 is a work in progress. The specification is unstable. Tools 
(validators, browsers, generators, etc) that use it will be out of date. It is 
not ready for prime time.

-- 
David Dorward
http://dorward.me.uk



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RE: [WSG] More on understanding html5

2010-01-05 Thread Darren Lovelock
I dont know html5 but a definition list should be in html4:
 
dl
dt/dt
dd/dd
/dl
 
But then again html5 seems to not need opening or closing tags in a lot of
cases, as it accommodates for a more sloppy way of coding and therefore the
validator may be incorrect.
 
Here it doesn't say to use a definition list, just a legend and an img tag
for adding a caption to an image -
http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/library/x-html5/
 
This site however says the html5 spec was changed to use the dddt
instead but there are still problems with it -
http://html5doctor.com/dd-details-wrong-again/
 
The article says -  In short, details and figure solve a common design
pattern and provide nice new semantic tags to solve that problem. A figure
could be an image you're referring to in an article or chapter of a book,
and the details element allows the user to interactively show and hide the
details of some piece of information.
 
Darren Lovelock
Munky Online Web Design
 http://www.munkyonline.co.uk/ http://www.munkyonline.co.uk
T: +44 (0)20-8816-8893

  _  

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of designer
Sent: 05 January 2010 12:59
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] More on understanding html5


I am getting a bit bogged down with this new stuff!  
 
I used figure in this case:
 
 
figure 
  img src=graphics/marramgrass.gif alt=marram grass width=116
height=400/
  p style=text-align:center
 Marram Grass
  /p
/figure
 
and the (experimental) validator said that was fine.  Someone pointed out to
me that this is 'wrong' and that the p  should be dd and dt  :
 
figure

 dd

  img src=bubbles-work.jpeg

   alt=Bubbles, sitting in his office chair, works on his

latest project intently.

 /dd

 dtBubbles at work/dt

/figure
So I changed my code to:
figure
dd
 img src=graphics/marramgrass.gif alt=marram
grass /
/dd
dt Marram Grass/dt
   /figure
and the validator says:
 

1.   Error http://validator.w3.org/images/info_icons/error.png Line
78, Column 24: Element dd not allowed as child of element figure in this
context. (Suppressing further errors from this subtree.) 

dd

Contexts in which element
http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-dd-element dd may
be used: 

After
http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-dt-element dt or
http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-dd-element dd
elements inside
http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-dl-element dl
elements. 

In a
http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-figure-element
figure element containing no other
http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-dd-element dd
element children. 

As the last child of a
http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-details-element
details element. 

Content model for element
http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-figure-element
figure: 

In any order, one
http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-dd-element dd
element, and optionally one
http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-dt-element dt
element.

2.   Error http://validator.w3.org/images/info_icons/error.png Line
81, Column 24: Element dt not allowed as child of element figure in this
context. (Suppressing further errors from this subtree.) 

dt Marram Grass/dt

Contexts in which element
http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-dt-element dt may
be used: 

Before
http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-dd-element dd or
http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-dt-element dt
elements inside
http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-dl-element dl
elements. 

In a
http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-figure-element
figure element containing no other
http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-dt-element dt
element children. 

As the first child of a
http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-details-element
details element. 

Content model for element
http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-figure-element
figure: 

In any order, one
http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-dd-element dd
element, and optionally one
http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-dt-element dt
element.

So, is the validator wrong? And, if so, where do I get guidance as I bumble
along?
Duh?
 
Bob
 



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Re: [WSG] More on understanding html5

2010-01-05 Thread David Dorward
 
On 5 Jan 2010, at 13:33, Darren Lovelock wrote:
 But then again html5 seems to not need opening or closing tags in a lot of 
 cases, as it accommodates for a more sloppy way of coding and therefore the 
 validator may be incorrect.

HTML4 doesn't require opening or closing tags in many cases either.

In this case, however, dt and dd elements are children of the figure element, 
not a dl element with optional start/end tags.

 Here it doesn't say to use a definition list, just a legend and an img tag 
 for adding a caption to an image - 
 http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/library/x-html5/

That article is 2.5 years old. For something as unstable as HTML5, I'd ignore 
it.

  This site however says the html5 spec was changed to use the dddt 
 instead but there are still problems with it - 
 http://html5doctor.com/dd-details-wrong-again/

That is more of a problem with Internet Explorer. It is recovering from the 
error in the HTML 4.x in a very strange and illogical way.

-- 
David Dorward
http://dorward.me.uk



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