RE: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet
I haven't used W2K since 2002 but doesn't W2K support other browsers ie Chrome, FF etc? -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Chad Kelly Sent: Monday, December 20, 2010 9:15 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet - Original Message - From: Erickson, Kevin (DOE) kevin.erick...@doe.virginia.gov To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 7:51 AM Subject: RE: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet Yes. Thank you Felix! best viewed works much better. And then throw in the fact that IE 6 was first release around 2001 and ask them if they even care if they can see a site in a best viewed fashion. I am thinking they are not. ;-) j/k. All's good. I know of some work places still useing Windows 2000. Or rather, I have read that they have rolled back to it, after some applications and the like wouldn't run on XP, which means that IE6 is about the only thing they can run on Windows2000, unless they use Firefox, or some other browser. As I don't think IE7 and 8 run on Win2K. I also know that a lot of workplaces are swiching to Vista though, so with all these different versions of Windows floating around the place, and with MS still not dropping official support for IE6 untill 2014 it is rather anoying. All that said, I don't test in IE6 anymore and have not done so for a year or so. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet
Totally agree with you! Letting users know about the security flaws of IE6+7 is much more effective than the usual passive messages (especially on e-shops)!! Providing the content styled or not is a tough question, but i believe it all comes to the site's audience and purpose..for instance for a news website i would spend more time coding a stylesheet for mobile devices rather than IE6... unfortunatelly i still have to provide for IE7+8..but thats another story.. Whatever the case, trying to provide the information in the best way, just markup or styles that dont display some elements etc., i think should be the optimal web practise.. Regards, dio. Sent from my iPhone On 20 Dec 2010, at 23:10, tee weblis...@gmail.com wrote: On Dec 20, 2010, at 12:26 PM, Felix Miata wrote: On 2010/12/20 13:13 (GMT-0500) Erickson, Kevin (DOE) composed: I like the let it fail gracefully method. And, using something like !--[if IE 6]link rel=stylesheet href=/styles /ie6_detection_message.css media=screen type=text/css /![endif]--, display a message for IE 6 only, You are using IE 6. Please upgrade your browser to view this site correctly. For those who still think IE6 users shouldn't be treated less user experience wise and that we shouldn't advocate abandoning the browser, I think something needs to take into account, that IE6 and 7 have serious security flaws, if a site is static it probably is OK, but for sites that collect user data and CC info than there is a good reason to advice and advocate IE6 users to stay away from the browser. One of my clients did an implementation on his site, year ago the usage of IE6 was over 15%; he had me put up an IE6 no more banner, 6 months later, the usage only dropped some 3%. Then I read news about Google got hacked and that Microsoft asked users to abandon IE6, so I suggested client placed a message about the security vulnerability. The usage fell below 6% in a couple months, tough I can't be 100% sure it's the message that helped bringing down the percentage, but I think it helped greatly than a passive You are using an outdated browser. For a better experience using this site, please upgrade to a modern web browser. tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet
On Mon, 20 Dec 2010 13:10:03 -0800, tee weblis...@gmail.com wrote: One of my clients did an implementation on his site, year ago the usage of IE6 was over 15%; he had me put up an IE6 no more banner, 6 months later, the usage only dropped some 3%. Then I read news about Google got hacked and that Microsoft asked users to abandon IE6, so I suggested client placed a message about the security vulnerability. The usage fell below 6% in a couple months, tough I can't be 100% sure it's the message that helped bringing down the percentage, but I think it helped greatly than a passive You are using an outdated browser. For a better experience using this site, please upgrade to a modern web browser. tee Or you lost a lot of IE6 users. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet
On 12/20/10 6:14 PM, Chad Kelly wrote: - Original Message - From: Erickson, Kevin (DOE) kevin.erick...@doe.virginia.gov To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 7:51 AM Subject: RE: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet Yes. Thank you Felix! best viewed works much better. [...] This is where I came in. (2002) All that said, I don't test in IE6 anymore and have not done so for a year or so. The Year of Living Dangerously? ;) Cordially, David -- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet
Paul, thank you very much! Very neat! Had a deja vu moment when I saw the title, I might had stumbled on that article before. If I were to find the article in 2009 it probably wasn't worth the consideration due to IE6 usage at that time, but it's prime time to start using this technique now :) The Conditional Comment breaks the CSS merging script though. tee On Dec 19, 2010, at 6:45 PM, Paul Irish wrote: tee, you want this: http://forabeautifulweb.com/blog/about/universal_internet_explorer_6_css/ it greatly simplifies the layout for IE6.. to just be the straight-up content.. no layout tricks. plus decent typography. :) Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet
I like the let it fail gracefully method. And, using something like !--[if IE 6]link rel=stylesheet href=/styles /ie6_detection_message.css media=screen type=text/css /![endif]--, display a message for IE 6 only, You are using IE 6. Please upgrade your browser to view this site correctly. Kevin -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of tee Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2010 6:20 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet I am finally to begin to stop supporting IE6 starts from 2011 as the usage has fallen below 5%. I don't want the IE6 users to see a broken page due to no special treatment made for the browser, rather, I would like them to see an un-styled page as if the style sheet has switch off. Can this be done? Thanks! tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet
http://forabeautifulweb.com/blog/about/universal_internet_explorer_6_css/ On Sat, Dec 18, 2010 at 4:20 AM, tee weblis...@gmail.com wrote: I am finally to begin to stop supporting IE6 starts from 2011 as the usage has fallen below 5%. I don't want the IE6 users to see a broken page due to no special treatment made for the browser, rather, I would like them to see an un-styled page as if the style sheet has switch off. Can this be done? Thanks! tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet
IE6 would not load the stylesheet if set up the line of HTML like this: !--[if (gt IE 6)|!(IE)]!-- main stylesheet goes here !--![endif]-- Joseph R. B. Taylor /Web Designer / Developer/ -- Sites by Joe, LLC /Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/ Phone: (609) 335-3076 Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com Email: j...@sitesbyjoe.com On 12/20/10 1:28 PM, Ty Hatch wrote: http://forabeautifulweb.com/blog/about/universal_internet_explorer_6_css/ On Sat, Dec 18, 2010 at 4:20 AM, tee weblis...@gmail.com mailto:weblis...@gmail.com wrote: I am finally to begin to stop supporting IE6 starts from 2011 as the usage has fallen below 5%. I don't want the IE6 users to see a broken page due to no special treatment made for the browser, rather, I would like them to see an un-styled page as if the style sheet has switch off. Can this be done? Thanks! tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org mailto:memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet
Sorry Georg, I should have read your article before (re)using that joke! I still not sure I'd spend extra effort to effectively penalise IE6 users. IE6 is not Netscape 4, its CSS support is not that bad. ... I just realised I'm sticking up for IE6! Must be the payback for all the nasty things I've said about it :) David On 20/12/2010, at 8:13 AM, David McKinnon wrote: Sounds like you're going to a lot of effort to make the IE6 experince worse than it needs to be. Is this *dis*graceful degradation? ;) David On 20/12/2010, at 1:18 AM, tee weblis...@gmail.com wrote: Thanks. I need to look into it and run a few tests. I think it may not be a safest approach as I vaguely remember I experienced a few issue using @import with CSS compression and CSS file merging script. Script that brings CSS3 selectors for IE such as selectivizr also cannot handle @import properly - I only tried it once and two style sheets are using @import but are placed inside a main style sheet. tee On Dec 18, 2010, at 6:15 AM, G.Sørtun wrote: I am finally to begin to stop supporting IE6 starts from 2011 as the usage has fallen below 5%. I don't want the IE6 users to see a broken page due to no special treatment made for the browser, rather, I would like them to see an un-styled page as if the style sheet has switch off. Can this be done? Of course... :-) How to demo here: http://www.gunlaug.no/contents/wd_additions_50.html It is up to you how unstyled IE6 shall present a page. I would give it some. regards Georg *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet
On 2010/12/20 13:13 (GMT-0500) Erickson, Kevin (DOE) composed: I like the let it fail gracefully method. And, using something like !--[if IE 6]link rel=stylesheet href=/styles /ie6_detection_message.css media=screen type=text/css /![endif]--, display a message for IE 6 only, You are using IE 6. Please upgrade your browser to view this site correctly. Correctly? Do all compliant browsers do correctly? Better not best viewed or as intended or -- The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive. Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet
Yes. Thank you Felix! best viewed works much better. And then throw in the fact that IE 6 was first release around 2001 and ask them if they even care if they can see a site in a best viewed fashion. I am thinking they are not. ;-) j/k. All's good. -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Felix Miata Sent: Monday, December 20, 2010 3:26 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet On 2010/12/20 13:13 (GMT-0500) Erickson, Kevin (DOE) composed: I like the let it fail gracefully method. And, using something like !--[if IE 6]link rel=stylesheet href=/styles /ie6_detection_message.css media=screen type=text/css /![endif]--, display a message for IE 6 only, You are using IE 6. Please upgrade your browser to view this site correctly. Correctly? Do all compliant browsers do correctly? Better not best viewed or as intended or *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet
On Dec 20, 2010, at 12:26 PM, Felix Miata wrote: On 2010/12/20 13:13 (GMT-0500) Erickson, Kevin (DOE) composed: I like the let it fail gracefully method. And, using something like !--[if IE 6]link rel=stylesheet href=/styles /ie6_detection_message.css media=screen type=text/css /![endif]--, display a message for IE 6 only, You are using IE 6. Please upgrade your browser to view this site correctly. For those who still think IE6 users shouldn't be treated less user experience wise and that we shouldn't advocate abandoning the browser, I think something needs to take into account, that IE6 and 7 have serious security flaws, if a site is static it probably is OK, but for sites that collect user data and CC info than there is a good reason to advice and advocate IE6 users to stay away from the browser. One of my clients did an implementation on his site, year ago the usage of IE6 was over 15%; he had me put up an IE6 no more banner, 6 months later, the usage only dropped some 3%. Then I read news about Google got hacked and that Microsoft asked users to abandon IE6, so I suggested client placed a message about the security vulnerability. The usage fell below 6% in a couple months, tough I can't be 100% sure it's the message that helped bringing down the percentage, but I think it helped greatly than a passive You are using an outdated browser. For a better experience using this site, please upgrade to a modern web browser. tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet
On 20.12.2010 21:00, David McKinnon wrote: Sorry Georg, I should have read your article before (re)using that joke! I still not sure I'd spend extra effort to effectively penalise IE6 users. IE6 is not Netscape 4, its CSS support is not that bad. ... I just realised I'm sticking up for IE6! Must be the payback for all the nasty things I've said about it :) David :-) Years ago someone threatened to start a protect IE6 from Georg union. Are you a member..? :-D I'm only presenting my favored solution for splitting IE6 away from the rest so it can be served something it can handle. What others want to do with IE6 once it is separated, is totally up to them. I'm usually quite nice to IE6 users, as can be seen on other pages on my site. All I do is to display a message to IE6 users, urging them to upgrade from their obsolete browser. Some actually accuse me of being too nice to IE6 now and then, so I receive flak from both sides. No big deal. Fixing IE6' bugs so it renders close enough for comfort isn't much of a deal either, although it may be necessary to roll out some of the big artillery to get past its most severe bugs and weaknesses in certain cases. Generally: I see the effort I put into getting IE6 in line, after all the other browsers are served, as good coding practice and something to do when I get bored. regards Georg *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet
- Original Message - From: Erickson, Kevin (DOE) kevin.erick...@doe.virginia.gov To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 7:51 AM Subject: RE: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet Yes. Thank you Felix! best viewed works much better. And then throw in the fact that IE 6 was first release around 2001 and ask them if they even care if they can see a site in a best viewed fashion. I am thinking they are not. ;-) j/k. All's good. I know of some work places still useing Windows 2000. Or rather, I have read that they have rolled back to it, after some applications and the like wouldn't run on XP, which means that IE6 is about the only thing they can run on Windows2000, unless they use Firefox, or some other browser. As I don't think IE7 and 8 run on Win2K. I also know that a lot of workplaces are swiching to Vista though, so with all these different versions of Windows floating around the place, and with MS still not dropping official support for IE6 untill 2014 it is rather anoying. All that said, I don't test in IE6 anymore and have not done so for a year or so. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet
My 2 cents, Your approach towards IE6 should be dictated by your site's audience. Watch your stats. If you have a lot of IE6 visitors, don't they deserve a decent page? If they're potential customers, wouldn't you want them to go through and make a transaction? Think of the poor people using IE6. I've seen them come in the following flavors: 60% - Persons trapped in old Win2k network without the ability to install anything to their profile. 37% - Persons with an old computer with no knowledge of any alternative ~ /I surf the web by clicking the E!/ 3% - Hermits who refuse to upgrade as they still love their IE6's simple interface. I'm not kidding. I still have Windows 2000 servers running web apps I made 10 years. Many swear it was Microsoft's last good OS! At any rate, at least 2 out of the three groups above are potential customers. The stats for my own site show that 80% of my new customers are using IE, with a good 30% of that group still using IE6. Yeah, it kind of sucks, but web design is all about dealing with limitations, isn't it? Joseph R. B. Taylor /Web Designer / Developer/ -- Sites by Joe, LLC /Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/ Phone: (609) 335-3076 Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com Email: j...@sitesbyjoe.com On 12/20/10 9:14 PM, Chad Kelly wrote: - Original Message - From: Erickson, Kevin (DOE) kevin.erick...@doe.virginia.gov To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 7:51 AM Subject: RE: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet Yes. Thank you Felix! best viewed works much better. And then throw in the fact that IE 6 was first release around 2001 and ask them if they even care if they can see a site in a best viewed fashion. I am thinking they are not. ;-) j/k. All's good. I know of some work places still useing Windows 2000. Or rather, I have read that they have rolled back to it, after some applications and the like wouldn't run on XP, which means that IE6 is about the only thing they can run on Windows2000, unless they use Firefox, or some other browser. As I don't think IE7 and 8 run on Win2K. I also know that a lot of workplaces are swiching to Vista though, so with all these different versions of Windows floating around the place, and with MS still not dropping official support for IE6 untill 2014 it is rather anoying. All that said, I don't test in IE6 anymore and have not done so for a year or so. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet
Thanks. I need to look into it and run a few tests. I think it may not be a safest approach as I vaguely remember I experienced a few issue using @import with CSS compression and CSS file merging script. Script that brings CSS3 selectors for IE such as selectivizr also cannot handle @import properly - I only tried it once and two style sheets are using @import but are placed inside a main style sheet. tee On Dec 18, 2010, at 6:15 AM, G.Sørtun wrote: I am finally to begin to stop supporting IE6 starts from 2011 as the usage has fallen below 5%. I don't want the IE6 users to see a broken page due to no special treatment made for the browser, rather, I would like them to see an un-styled page as if the style sheet has switch off. Can this be done? Of course... :-) How to demo here: http://www.gunlaug.no/contents/wd_additions_50.html It is up to you how unstyled IE6 shall present a page. I would give it some. regards Georg *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet
Sounds like you're going to a lot of effort to make the IE6 experince worse than it needs to be. Is this *dis*graceful degradation? ;) David On 20/12/2010, at 1:18 AM, tee weblis...@gmail.com wrote: Thanks. I need to look into it and run a few tests. I think it may not be a safest approach as I vaguely remember I experienced a few issue using @import with CSS compression and CSS file merging script. Script that brings CSS3 selectors for IE such as selectivizr also cannot handle @import properly - I only tried it once and two style sheets are using @import but are placed inside a main style sheet. tee On Dec 18, 2010, at 6:15 AM, G.Sørtun wrote: I am finally to begin to stop supporting IE6 starts from 2011 as the usage has fallen below 5%. I don't want the IE6 users to see a broken page due to no special treatment made for the browser, rather, I would like them to see an un-styled page as if the style sheet has switch off. Can this be done? Of course... :-) How to demo here: http://www.gunlaug.no/contents/wd_additions_50.html It is up to you how unstyled IE6 shall present a page. I would give it some. regards Georg *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet
On 19.12.2010 22:13, David McKinnon wrote: Sounds like you're going to a lot of effort to make the IE6 experince worse than it needs to be. Is this *dis*graceful degradation? ;) David As it says in my article: I've restricted disgraceful degradation to IE6 and older. And, the effort is minimal :-) Not sure if limited styles necessarily make the IE6 experience worse than weak and/or failing styles and corrective measures. As usual that depends on the designer/coder. regards Georg *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet
tee, you want this: http://forabeautifulweb.com/blog/about/universal_internet_explorer_6_css/ it greatly simplifies the layout for IE6.. to just be the straight-up content.. no layout tricks. plus decent typography. :) On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 3:59 PM, G.Sørtun gunla...@c2i.net wrote: On 19.12.2010 22:13, David McKinnon wrote: Sounds like you're going to a lot of effort to make the IE6 experince worse than it needs to be. Is this *dis*graceful degradation? ;) David As it says in my article: I've restricted disgraceful degradation to IE6 and older. And, the effort is minimal :-) Not sure if limited styles necessarily make the IE6 experience worse than weak and/or failing styles and corrective measures. As usual that depends on the designer/coder. regards Georg *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet
Why go that far? Why not let this browser see the CSS and fail gracefully - or semi-gracefully as needed (as long as the content and navigation are accessible so that the site can be navigated and read). On 18/12/2010, at 10:20 PM, tee wrote: I am finally to begin to stop supporting IE6 starts from 2011 as the usage has fallen below 5%. I don't want the IE6 users to see a broken page due to no special treatment made for the browser, rather, I would like them to see an un-styled page as if the style sheet has switch off. Can this be done? Thanks! tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet
On 12/18/10 6:20 AM, tee wrote: I am finally to begin to stop supporting IE6 starts from 2011 as the usage has fallen below 5%. I don't want the IE6 users to see a broken page due to no special treatment made for the browser, rather, I would like them to see an un-styled page as if the style sheet has switch off. Can this be done? Thanks! tee aside A somewhat less dramatic alternative is to feed IE/6.0 styles in much the same manner as one might handle mobile. Somewhat crude at the moment, but fwiw see my signature link in IE/6. Best, ~d -- http://chelseacreekstudio.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet
Don't have any base, I just think psychologically an un-styled page is better received than a broken page, and it makes the page loads faster too without nice transparent background images. I wouldn't called these two pages failed gracefully. They are semi-broken and PNG transparent images are making them worse. http://picasaweb.google.com/weblist99/Ie6 My goal is never to have to bother with IE6 at all, and that means not a single tiny treatment for this browser, the cleaner way seems to be no style sheet is served for the browser. tee On Dec 18, 2010, at 3:53 AM, Russ Weakley wrote: Why go that far? Why not let this browser see the CSS and fail gracefully - or semi-gracefully as needed (as long as the content and navigation are accessible so that the site can be navigated and read). On 18/12/2010, at 10:20 PM, tee wrote: I am finally to begin to stop supporting IE6 starts from 2011 as the usage has fallen below 5%. I don't want the IE6 users to see a broken page due to no special treatment made for the browser, rather, I would like them to see an un-styled page as if the style sheet has switch off. Can this be done? Thanks! tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet
On Sat, Dec 18, 2010 at 11:20 AM, tee weblis...@gmail.com wrote: I am finally to begin to stop supporting IE6 starts from 2011 as the usage has fallen below 5%. I don't want the IE6 users to see a broken page due to no special treatment made for the browser, rather, I would like them to see an un-styled page as if the style sheet has switch off. Can this be done? Yes. For example, you could: (1) Use conditional comments to exclude the IE6 (or earlier) engine: http://reference.sitepoint.com/css/conditionalcomments or (2) Use the HTTP User-Agent header to serve different markup to IE6. http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms537503(v=vs.85).aspx User-Agent headers are sometimes spoofed. On the other hand, they provide a more general mechanism that can be used to exclude styles/script from other old user agents (e.g. old Mozilla versions). Note that when doing sniffing of this sort, it is better to differentiate the experience for known-bad browsers and assume all other browsers are fully capable, so that users of capable minority browsers are not locked out or forced to spoof. In other words: use a blacklist not a whitelist. -- Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet
I am finally to begin to stop supporting IE6 starts from 2011 as the usage has fallen below 5%. I don't want the IE6 users to see a broken page due to no special treatment made for the browser, rather, I would like them to see an un-styled page as if the style sheet has switch off. Can this be done? Of course... :-) How to demo here: http://www.gunlaug.no/contents/wd_additions_50.html It is up to you how unstyled IE6 shall present a page. I would give it some. regards Georg *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet
Hi. I think, this example will help you: !--[if gte IE 6]!-- link rel=stylesheet href=style.css !--![endif]-- Best, Anton 2010/12/18 tee weblis...@gmail.com: I am finally to begin to stop supporting IE6 starts from 2011 as the usage has fallen below 5%. I don't want the IE6 users to see a broken page due to no special treatment made for the browser, rather, I would like them to see an un-styled page as if the style sheet has switch off. Can this be done? Thanks! tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet
Sorry :) !--[if gt IE 6]!-- ... of course. Best, Anton. 2010/12/18 Anthony Gr. ant.grak...@gmail.com: Hi. I think, this example will help you: !--[if gte IE 6]!-- link rel=stylesheet href=style.css !--![endif]-- Best, Anton 2010/12/18 tee weblis...@gmail.com: I am finally to begin to stop supporting IE6 starts from 2011 as the usage has fallen below 5%. I don't want the IE6 users to see a broken page due to no special treatment made for the browser, rather, I would like them to see an un-styled page as if the style sheet has switch off. Can this be done? Thanks! tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet
Big companies such as Google and Youtube have had to deal with the IE6 problem on a large scale. Their pages display a warning message to advise IE6 users that the page may not display correctly, and suggest upgrading to a more recent browser. Personally I think it is reasonable to take this approach, given the age of IE6 and its declining market share. However I would be interested in the attitude of other developers. Kind regards, Grant Bailey On 19/12/2010 2:03 AM, Anthony Gr. wrote: Sorry :) !--[if gt IE 6]!-- ... of course. Best, Anton. 2010/12/18 Anthony Gr.ant.grak...@gmail.com: Hi. I think, this example will help you: !--[if gte IE 6]!-- link rel=stylesheet href=style.css !--![endif]-- Best, Anton 2010/12/18 teeweblis...@gmail.com: I am finally to begin to stop supporting IE6 starts from 2011 as the usage has fallen below 5%. I don't want the IE6 users to see a broken page due to no special treatment made for the browser, rather, I would like them to see an un-styled page as if the style sheet has switch off. Can this be done? Thanks! tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet
Personally I think it is reasonable to take this approach, given the age of IE6 and its declining market share. However I would be interested in the attitude of other developers. Imho, we should take care of any layout issue, but not try to get fancy effects via extra markup, images, filters, and other hacks. In short, IE6 should get layout fixes and miss on properties like border-radius, opacity, etc. So no need for a specific styles sheet imo. -- Regards, Thierry www.tjkdesign.com | www.ez-css.org | @thierrykoblentz *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet
Imho, we should take care of any layout issue, but not try to get fancy effects via extra markup, images, filters, and other hacks. In short, IE6 should get layout fixes and miss on properties like border-radius, opacity, etc. So no need for a specific styles sheet imo. The reason for this is twofold though: firstly, you want to coax people off of IE6. Secondly, you want to keep their user experience sane. IE6's rendering engine was not designed with many of today's more modern layouts and techniques in mind, and the average IE6 user will have an average XP box that will chug like hell on large or JS-or-DOM-complicated pages. - James -- James Ducker Web Developer http://www.studioj.net.au *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet
Is there a js file somewhere that would allow me to just insert the following into my pages: !--[if lte IE 6]!-- script type=text/javascript src=http://cdn.domain.com/ie6.js;/script !--![endif]-- It would then pop up a warning to the user (but only once per session) that their browser was out of date, and give them links to more modern browsers - like what Google does, but in a way that would allow me to just insert that code and not have to worry about it. Also I think there would be value in having the same warning shown to users across multiple sites - might help to ram the message home a bit stronger :) Like the OP I too want to have something other than just a broken page, but considering the value that IE 6 users bring to my site I am not prepared to spend more than a few minutes to cater for them. Andy On 19 Dec 2010, at 12:59, Grant Bailey wrote: Big companies such as Google and Youtube have had to deal with the IE6 problem on a large scale. Their pages display a warning message to advise IE6 users that the page may not display correctly, and suggest upgrading to a more recent browser. Personally I think it is reasonable to take this approach, given the age of IE6 and its declining market share. However I would be interested in the attitude of other developers. Kind regards, Grant Bailey On 19/12/2010 2:03 AM, Anthony Gr. wrote: Sorry :) !--[if gt IE 6]!-- ... of course. Best, Anton. 2010/12/18 Anthony Gr.ant.grak...@gmail.com: Hi. I think, this example will help you: !--[if gte IE 6]!-- link rel=stylesheet href=style.css !--![endif]-- Best, Anton 2010/12/18 teeweblis...@gmail.com: I am finally to begin to stop supporting IE6 starts from 2011 as the usage has fallen below 5%. I don't want the IE6 users to see a broken page due to no special treatment made for the browser, rather, I would like them to see an un-styled page as if the style sheet has switch off. Can this be done? Thanks! tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet
The reason for this is twofold though: firstly, you want to coax people off of IE6. I don't think that's our job... -- Regards, Thierry www.tjkdesign.com | www.ez-css.org | @thierrykoblentz *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet
Good points James. When I think about cross-browser compatibility, I try to keep the following points in mind: 1 - Websites don't have to look the same in each browser. This doesn't mean that you can ignore how pages render in browsers you don't care about; it means that if Chrome displays rounded corners, and IE6 does not, this is still acceptable, so long as it doesn't look wrong or broken to someone using IE6. 2 - To piggyback off 1, make the experience usable and consistent in each browser. This is the short and sweet rule I try to live by when making CSS decisions. 3 - There is no such thing as a compliant browser. Some browsers support functionality that we are looking to begin using, but so long as browsers are not designing to a universal standard, expect there to be rendering differences and variety of support. So I guess what I'm trying to communicate is that you should be designing for the latest browsers, then implement override stylesheets for older browsers such as IE6/7. So long as your presentation looks finished, consistent, and usable in each browser individually, you're good to go. Don't let those old browsers affect your core stylesheet(s). Eric Taylor Elements Aside / http://www.elementsaside.com On Dec 18, 2010, at 11:16 PM, James Ducker jduc...@ieee.org wrote: Imho, we should take care of any layout issue, but not try to get fancy effects via extra markup, images, filters, and other hacks. In short, IE6 should get layout fixes and miss on properties like border-radius, opacity, etc. So no need for a specific styles sheet imo. The reason for this is twofold though: firstly, you want to coax people off of IE6. Secondly, you want to keep their user experience sane. IE6's rendering engine was not designed with many of today's more modern layouts and techniques in mind, and the average IE6 user will have an average XP box that will chug like hell on large or JS-or-DOM-complicated pages. - James -- James Ducker Web Developer http://www.studioj.net.au *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet
Also, I forgot to mention - If you are looking to get people to move to a newer browser, simple implement a small banner, maybe static header or footer, that recommends some newer browsers. This can be added into your override CSS file for the outdated browser(s). Eric Taylor Elements Aside / http://www.elementsaside.com On Dec 18, 2010, at 11:16 PM, James Ducker jduc...@ieee.org wrote: Imho, we should take care of any layout issue, but not try to get fancy effects via extra markup, images, filters, and other hacks. In short, IE6 should get layout fixes and miss on properties like border-radius, opacity, etc. So no need for a specific styles sheet imo. The reason for this is twofold though: firstly, you want to coax people off of IE6. Secondly, you want to keep their user experience sane. IE6's rendering engine was not designed with many of today's more modern layouts and techniques in mind, and the average IE6 user will have an average XP box that will chug like hell on large or JS-or-DOM-complicated pages. - James -- James Ducker Web Developer http://www.studioj.net.au *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet
On 2010/12/18 20:33 (GMT-0800) Thierry Koblentz composed: The reason for this is twofold though: firstly, you want to coax people off of IE6. I don't think that's our job... Who better? Wouldn't you rather IE6/7 disappear sooner than later? You enjoy the extra effort the too many years of its massive non-conformity causes? -- The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive. Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet
Agreed. Our job is to provide the best web experience the user can have. To do this, the user will optimally have the most up-to-date browser, as to experience the latest web technology available. Eric Taylor Elements Aside / http://www.elementsaside.com On Dec 18, 2010, at 11:49 PM, Felix Miata mrma...@earthlink.net wrote: On 2010/12/18 20:33 (GMT-0800) Thierry Koblentz composed: The reason for this is twofold though: firstly, you want to coax people off of IE6. I don't think that's our job... Who better? Wouldn't you rather IE6/7 disappear sooner than later? You enjoy the extra effort the too many years of its massive non-conformity causes? -- The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive. Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet
On 18 December 2010 22:20, tee weblis...@gmail.com wrote: I am finally to begin to stop supporting IE6 starts from 2011 as the usage has fallen below 5%. I don't want the IE6 users to see a broken page due to no special treatment made for the browser, rather, I would like them to see an un-styled page as if the style sheet has switch off. Can this be done? Rather than a completely unstyled page I use a combination of http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200511/valid_downlevelrevealed_conditional_comments/and http://code.google.com/p/universal-ie6-css/ (alternatively you could write a basic stylesheet, setting your usual typefaces and colours but leaving layout to the default - time box it to something like ten minutes' effort). !--[if ! lte IE 6]!-- link to normal css !--![endif]-- !--[if lte IE 6] link to IE6 css ![endif]-- That way it doesn't cost anything in good browsers; I'm not spending time on IE6; but anyone stuck on IE6 (eg in a corporate environment) does get something styled (a lot of people equate unstyled with broken). Because I favour actively pushing IE6 out I do include a little message just for IE6, respectfully suggesting the user should upgrade or ask their IT people if an upgrade would be possible. -- --- http://weblog.200ok.com.au/ --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] disallow IE6 to load the main style sheet
The reason for this is twofold though: firstly, you want to coax people off of IE6. I don't think that's our job... Who better? Wouldn't you rather IE6/7 disappear sooner than later? You enjoy the extra effort the too many years of its massive non-conformity causes? Most people who run IE6 don't have a choice. Feel free to ignore them, but don't believe that you can make them switch browsers. I guess the next step is to design for 1400px layouts so we can put more above the fold. Then we'll tell people to buy new monitors :) -- Regards, Thierry www.tjkdesign.com | www.ez-css.org | @thierrykoblentz *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
