Re: [WSG] scribbles
Hi Bob, You make a good point. But the reason I don't use new windows isn't accesibility. It's an irritation at having new windows opened for me. Being a firefox user, I open in a new tab when I want to and in the current otherwise. People know what they want, generally, and are able to perform that actoin. The only popular non-tabbed browser is IE 6, where one can always open in a new window if one wants. The case for mini-popups (smaller sized windows, sized through the javascript window.open()) is somewhat different - indeed they can often be quite useful. But if you're just opening a new window because it's what you want - I don't consider it useful. My two cents. mjec -- http://mine.mjec.net/ On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 12:48:17 -, designer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi All, I'm not 'doing a blog', but have started to put down some thoughts about various areas of this 'new philosophy' which have me (as a newcomer of only 4 months to 'standards') totally confused. The first endeavour concerns the classic - opening new windows. My scribbling can be seen at: http://www.betasite.fsnet.co.uk/comment/scribblings.html I have not put this up to bring down the wrath of the evangelists, nor to cause a list war, but to express my confusion and hopefully promote some emreasoned/em debate amongst intelligent web design folk. I am genuinely confused by this, but am open minded and amenable to being convinced. Thanks, Bob McClelland, Cornwall (U.K.) www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] scribbles
I've seen where people use hidden DIV's that show/hide and who's content changes depending on the function at hand... That works REALLY well. Just an insight. I do think that popup style windows have a place in function and can be convenient. It's in a mixed spot for me. --- Josh Withrow System Administrator Newark, Delaware [EMAIL PROTECTED] Direct: 800-873-8932 x237 302-454-8511 x237 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael Cordover Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 9:27 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] scribbles Hi Bob, You make a good point. But the reason I don't use new windows isn't accesibility. It's an irritation at having new windows opened for me. Being a firefox user, I open in a new tab when I want to and in the current otherwise. People know what they want, generally, and are able to perform that actoin. The only popular non-tabbed browser is IE 6, where one can always open in a new window if one wants. The case for mini-popups (smaller sized windows, sized through the javascript window.open()) is somewhat different - indeed they can often be quite useful. But if you're just opening a new window because it's what you want - I don't consider it useful. My two cents. mjec -- http://mine.mjec.net/ On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 12:48:17 -, designer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi All, I'm not 'doing a blog', but have started to put down some thoughts about various areas of this 'new philosophy' which have me (as a newcomer of only 4 months to 'standards') totally confused. The first endeavour concerns the classic - opening new windows. My scribbling can be seen at: http://www.betasite.fsnet.co.uk/comment/scribblings.html I have not put this up to bring down the wrath of the evangelists, nor to cause a list war, but to express my confusion and hopefully promote some emreasoned/em debate amongst intelligent web design folk. I am genuinely confused by this, but am open minded and amenable to being convinced. Thanks, Bob McClelland, Cornwall (U.K.) www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] scribbles
A question to answer your question. Would you consider pop up windows as focus-stealing from a users point of view with regards to controlling his browsing environment? http://asktog.com/Bughouse/10MostPersistentBugs.html compiled by Bruce Tognazzini - Carmelyne Thompson designer wrote: Hi All, I'm not 'doing a blog', but have started to put down some thoughts about various areas of this 'new philosophy' which have me (as a newcomer of only 4 months to 'standards') totally confused. The first endeavour concerns the classic - opening new windows. My scribbling can be seen at: http://www.betasite.fsnet.co.uk/comment/scribblings.html I have not put this up to bring down the wrath of the evangelists, nor to cause a list war, but to express my confusion and hopefully promote some emreasoned/em debate amongst intelligent web design folk. I am genuinely confused by this, but am open minded and amenable to being convinced. Thanks, Bob McClelland, Cornwall (U.K.) www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] scribbles
designer wrote: http://www.betasite.fsnet.co.uk/comment/scribblings.html On this page, you write: Of course you can use javascript to open a new window (onClick), but that isn't the point, is it? I think that's exactly the point, however. My understanding is that the W3C did not remove the target attribute because opening windows is evil, but because it's not structural. They've relegated this *behavior* to the behavior layer (JavaScript) instead of the structural layer ([X]HTML). Granted, not everyone can use JavaScript or has it turned on, so they simply won't have this behavior triggered, just like any other scripting they may encounter on the web. If it's absolutely vital that the link opens in a new window for every user (which of course still only means those users whose browsers understand and act upon the target attribute), you can certainly use the transitional DTDs where it is still perfectly valid. One person I work with writes XHTML that is entirely strict-compliant except for target, and uses the transitional DTD on the few pages that need it. -- Martin Lambert [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] scribbles
I ... have started to put down some thoughts about various areas of this 'new philosophy' which have me (as a newcomer of only 4 months to 'standards') totally confused. The first endeavour concerns the classic - opening new windows. My scribbling can be seen at: http://www.betasite.fsnet.co.uk/comment/scribblings.html An a tag represents a link to another document from the current document. A search engine encountering that link will understand it in its entirety. Add the target attribute, and now you've confounded the issue. Does that link only exist between these documents if it's in a windowing environment? Does the link represent the relationship between two documents, or between two windows? If the window's name is the same as the target value, and therefore it is not opening in a new window, should the link not be followed? These are the sorts of rules that exist in a windowing environment, but cannot be expressed by a simple target attribute. In the end, to keep the web platform-neutral, target attributes were removed. Platform-specific scripting can easily replace any functionality you want to include. For example, I've written a script that finds a tags, then attaches specific behaviors based on the rel attribute value (the link's relationship to the linked file). For the values of popview and newwin I attach new-window functionality. Yes, this is a bit more work. I think that needs to be addressed, but the removal of target is a step in the right direction. -- Ben Curtis : webwright bivia : a personal web studio http://www.bivia.com v: (818) 507-6613 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
