RE: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-10 Thread Peter Williams
 From: Jon Tan
 
 I think that for any agent the semantic way to separate 
 address lines would 
 be using a comma at the end of each line as appropriate, 
 which regardless of 
 what mark-up was used would be interpreted correctly by 
 screen readers. 
 Doesn't this also apply to non-CSS agents too? I.e:
 
 The Secretary,
 Your Club,
 PO Box 999,
 Anytown VIC 3000.

Australia Post address format rules/recommendations don't allow
punctuation. Apparently it messes with the automated sorting.
It'd be good to have a method that was independant of local
quirks and variations.

-- 
Peter Williams
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Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-10 Thread Hope Stewart
On 10/10/05 3:38 PM, Christian Montoya [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Read this aloud: 
 
 909 anystreet
 ithaca, new york
 
 Did you stop at the line break? Did it matter? My point is that we don't need
 to make the line break obvious to the screen reader.

For this address it doesn't matter, but for this real address it does:

Lewisham Road North
Prahran VIC

Perhaps adding a comma at the end of the first line would indicate a pause
to a screen reader?

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Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-10 Thread Buddy Quaid




Usually when telling someone an address your giving it to them as
information which they either have to write down or type in. The pause
is usually to let them write it down before you go any further. 

I wonder if there is a way to make the screen reader say what you want
it to say for instance if you could preface the whole address with
something like "start address" and then end with "end address" then
they could know that they could just copy and paste that portion
wherever they wanted if they needed it.

Buddy

Richard Czeiger wrote:

  
  
  
  Hey Christian.
  Actually I find when
reading an address (or telling it to someone else) I do pause after
certain elements:
  street, 
  suburb, 
  state and postcode
(these seem to go togetherfor my internal voice - NSW 2011 - almost
like a license plate)
  
  Saying the whole
address wihout pausing wouldn't make sense
  
  
  R
  
  
  -
Original Message -
  From:
  Christian
Montoya 
  To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org 
  Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 3:38 PM
  Subject: Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br
  
  
  
  
  On 10/9/05, Richard Czeiger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  OK
so someone pointed out that pre would be better for poetry 
  
That was me. 
  
  
  pre
does a nice job of handling the visual side of things but from a
screen reader's point of view, how do they handle a line break through
pre
as opposed to br /. Do they pause or say "new line"? I think,
when all is 
said and done though that pre does seem better for poetry.
  
Actually, I think I learned in poetry class that most poems are meant
to be read continuously. In some poems line breaks matter, but it would
be up to the screen readers to ensure that the structure of a poem was
not lost to the listener. If you tried to style a poem by e.e.
cummings, you would have a boatload of nbsp; and  br /.
Not pretty at all.
  
Glad we agree. Back to the topic at hand, why would you pause when
reading an address aloud? If you tell me your address, do I really care
where the line breaks are? Read this aloud: 
  
909 anystreet
ithaca, new york
  
Did you stop at the line break? Did it matter? My point is that we
don't need to make the line break obvious to the screen reader. If we
want it there for the browser that lacks css we would want the  br
/. Sometimes line breaks are necessary visually, with or without
css. Otherwise, the span{display:block;} method would work too. I would
prefer the  br /. 
  
For another example of where I use  br /, I sometimes use it in
forms, where I want line breaks with or without css. 
  
 PS: in terms of the address element itself - check out
what's happening 
 over here! 
 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2004/02/xhtml-rdf.html#div154379976
  
  
  
  
The "resource" term looks like a great way to make an address semantic.
  
-- 
- C Montoya
  rdpdesign.com ... liquid.rdpdesign.com ... montoya.rdpdesign.com 


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Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Richard Czeiger
This sounds like it's going to turn into another let's all figure out how 
to use the address tag thing so let me pre-empt that.


I think the bigger question is can someone proivde an example of when best 
to use the br / tag in general?

What type of content semantically requires a line break.

The one thing that jumps immediately to my mind is poetry where the line 
break has serious semantic value.
Another might be for code snippets where the author wants to indicate that 
the actaull code continues on one line but is broken up in his example for 
deomnstration / readability. This is usually presented by a symbol at the 
end of the first line ( or some such)


Any other examples?

R

- Original Message - 
From: Hope Stewart [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: Web Standards Group wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 8:47 AM
Subject: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br


I'm getting the hang of this whole Web Standards way of designing a 
website
and for the most part can totally avoid using br. But in the example 
below

I'm unsure whether I should in fact avoid using br:

pstrongAll correspondence should be addressed to:/strongbr /
The Secretarybr /
Your Clubbr /
PO Box 999br /
Anytown VIC 3000/p

How do others code an address? My feeling is that semantically it should 
be
contained within one paragraph or entity of some sort. But if you were 
using

a screen reader, how would you differentiate one line from the next?

If I were to use an ordered list with list-style-type set to none, would
this be semantically correct? Is there a better way?

Hope Stewart

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Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread XStandard
Hi Hope,

There is nothing evil about the br element unless one is using it for visual 
effect. In your example, you are using br correctly. For addresses, you might 
want to use the address element instead of p.

Regards,
-Vlad
http://xstandard.com


 Original Message 
From: Hope Stewart
Date: 10/9/2005 6:47 PM
 I'm getting the hang of this whole Web Standards way of designing a website
 and for the most part can totally avoid using br. But in the example below
 I'm unsure whether I should in fact avoid using br:

 pstrongAll correspondence should be addressed to:/strongbr /
 The Secretarybr /
 Your Clubbr /
 PO Box 999br /
 Anytown VIC 3000/p

 How do others code an address? My feeling is that semantically it should be
 contained within one paragraph or entity of some sort. But if you were using
 a screen reader, how would you differentiate one line from the next?

 If I were to use an ordered list with list-style-type set to none, would
 this be semantically correct? Is there a better way?

 Hope Stewart

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Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Christian Montoya
The one thing that jumps immediately to my mind is poetry where the linebreak has serious semantic value.
Another might be for code snippets where the author wants to indicate thatthe actaull code continues on one line but is broken up in his example fordeomnstration / readability. This is usually presented by a symbol at the
end of the first line ( or some such)Wouldn't poetry go in the  pre  tag? Where the structure is retained? Or is that less semantic? -- - C Montoya
rdpdesign.com ... liquid.rdpdesign.com ... montoya.rdpdesign.com


Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Mike Brown

Richard Czeiger wrote:
I think the bigger question is can someone proivde an example of when 
best to use the br / tag in general?

What type of content semantically requires a line break.

- Original Message - From: Hope Stewart 

I'm unsure whether I should in fact avoid using br:

pstrongAll correspondence should be addressed to:/strongbr /
The Secretarybr /
Your Clubbr /
PO Box 999br /
Anytown VIC 3000/p



Ok, I'll bite and ask why would you not use br / in the address 
example above? Aren't the semantics of an address that the different 
elements are (usually) on separate lines?


Mike
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Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Jon Tan
Tantek Celik talks about the address and br / tags in his Elements of 
Meaningful XHTML presentation at WE05 available here: 
http://www.odeo.com/audio/270419/view

My suggestion would be that br / is not necessary when the same visual 
effect can be achieved with span around each address item which is then 
style span{display:block} with CSS. Each span could have a semantically 
useful classname or you could look in to the hCard microformat: 
http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard

Jon Tan
Grow Collective
www.gr0w.com


- Original Message - 
From: Hope Stewart [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Web Standards Group wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2005 11:47 PM
Subject: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br


I'm getting the hang of this whole Web Standards way of designing a website
and for the most part can totally avoid using br. But in the example below
I'm unsure whether I should in fact avoid using br:

pstrongAll correspondence should be addressed to:/strongbr /
The Secretarybr /
Your Clubbr /
PO Box 999br /
Anytown VIC 3000/p

How do others code an address? My feeling is that semantically it should be
contained within one paragraph or entity of some sort. But if you were using
a screen reader, how would you differentiate one line from the next?

If I were to use an ordered list with list-style-type set to none, would
this be semantically correct? Is there a better way?

Hope Stewart

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Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Geoff Deering

Vlad Alexander (XStandard) wrote:


Hi Hope,

There is nothing evil about the br element unless one is using it for visual effect. In your 
example, you are using br correctly. For addresses, you might want to use the address 
element instead of p.

Regards,
-Vlad
http://xstandard.com
 



I agree with you about br, but address should only be used when it 
refers to the author or owner of the document

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/html3/address.html
http://www.w3.org/TR/2002/WD-xhtml2-20021211/mod-text.html#sec_8.2.

Regards
Geoff
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Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Mordechai Peller

Hope Stewart wrote:

pstrongAll correspondence should be addressed to:/strongbr /
The Secretarybr /
Your Clubbr /
PO Box 999br /
Anytown VIC 3000/p
  

This may be a good case for an address tag:

pAll correspondence should be addressed to:/p
address
spanThe Secretary/span
spanYour Club/span
spanPO Box 999/span
spanAnytown VIC 3000/span
/address

It could be argued that instead of the spans, this is a rare case 
where the br /'s are semantic. Also, an hn tag might be better here 
than the p.


Note: If this isn't contact information for the document, then  the 
address tag would be incorrect.


Another option is:

dl
dtAll corr.../dt
ddaddress.../address/dd
/dl

If I were to use an ordered list with list-style-type set to none, would
this be semantically correct?

The problem with using an ordered list is that it's not a list.
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Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Hope Stewart
On 10/10/05 9:47 AM, Jon Tan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Tantek Celik talks about the address and br / tags in his Elements of
 Meaningful XHTML presentation at WE05 available here:
 http://www.odeo.com/audio/270419/view

I was present for Tantek's talk and I thought he said address was used
only for information about the author, not for various adddresses that might
be listed on a Contact Us page. I don't recall what he said about br. I'll
have to download the podcast and listen to it again -- it will be a
pleasure!
 
 My suggestion would be that br / is not necessary when the same visual
 effect can be achieved with span around each address item which is then
 style span{display:block} with CSS. Each span could have a semantically
 useful classname or you could look in to the hCard microformat:
 http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard

I considered using span but to me the code looks much cleaner and the css
has one less item by using br /. (I like the less-is-more concept.)

Hope Stewart

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Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Terrence Wood
Jon Tan said:
 My suggestion would be that br / is not necessary when the same visual
 effect can be achieved with span around each address item which is then
 style span{display:block} with CSS. Each span could have a semantically
 useful classname or you could look in to the hCard microformat:
 http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard

span has absolutely no semantic value, so unless you are going to apply
formatting to each constiuent of the address, or you are going to use the
hcard microformat I really see no point in adding page weight simply to
avoid using a br / element of two.


kind regards
Terrence Wood.

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Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Jan Brasna

pAll correspondence should be addressed to:/p
address
spanThe Secretary/span
spanYour Club/span
spanPO Box 999/span
spanAnytown VIC 3000/span
/address


a) This is IMHO not good use for an address element (context matters).
b) spans? Why? The're inline and they're overhead here.

--
Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com
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Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun

Hope Stewart wrote:

How do others code an address? My feeling is that semantically it 
should be contained within one paragraph or entity of some sort. But 
if you were using a screen reader, how would you differentiate one 
line from the next?


Non-CSS browsers dictates where to use br / and/or other forms of
content-organizers. If br / is evil, then non-CSS browsers are too. I
don't think anyone is seriously considering discarding non-CSS browsers,
but many seem to overlook their existence in their hunt for total
separation between markup and style. That doesn't make sense.

So, in our search for semantically correct markup, we should at least
ask Lynx[1][2] if it makes sense -- or not. The answer will kill a lot
of semantically correct solutions already present on the web.

Georg

[1]http://www.delorie.com/web/lynxview.html
[2]http://lynx.isc.org/
--
http://www.gunlaug.no
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Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Jon Tan



span has absolutely no semantic value, so unless you are going to apply
formatting to each constiuent of the address, or you are going to use the
hcard microformat I really see no point in adding page weight simply to
avoid using a br / element of two.


kind regards
Terrence Wood.


The hCard format adds meaning to span's in this instance and additonal 
page weight is tiny.


Kind regards
Jon Tan
www.gr0w.com



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Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Jon Tan

I was present for Tantek's talk and I thought he said address was used
only for information about the author, not for various adddresses that 
might
be listed on a Contact Us page. I don't recall what he said about br. 
I'll

have to download the podcast and listen to it again -- it will be a
pleasure!


Yes, you're correct about address: Part of the presentation was also a 
comment about address being a misnomer with the example in the spec being 
contradictory or at least not congruent with the actual specification and 
therefore not suitable for addresses in this context.


[...] considered using span but to me the code looks much cleaner and the 
css

has one less item by using br /. (I like the less-is-more concept.)



|Hope Stewart


I would usally totally agree with  the 'less is more' point but I disagree 
that br / has any intrinsic semantic value - it is purely presentational 
whereas span could if the hCard micoformat was used and it also neatly 
solves the visual requirement.





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Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

Hope Stewart wrote:


I was present for Tantek's talk and I thought he said address was used
only for information about the author


Which holds true if the address is used to mark up:

- the contact information for the current site (e.g. if it's a corporate 
site and you're giving the company's contact details)
- if it's something like a directory listing where each member gets 
their own little page, the contact details for that particular member


So, the thread starter should give some info on what he's trying to mark 
up, exactly.


--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
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http://webstandards.org/
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Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Lea de Groot
On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 00:47:42 +0100, Jon Tan wrote:
 My suggestion would be that br / is not necessary when the same visual 
 effect can be achieved with span around each address item which is then 
 style span{display:block} with CSS.

Curiosity - why use a span and apply display: block? Why not just use a 
div in the first place?  What are we gaining that I have missed?

warmly,
Lea
-- 
Lea de Groot
Elysian Systems - http://elysiansystems.com/
Brisbane, Australia
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Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Mordechai Peller

Mike Brown wrote:
Ok, I'll bite and ask why would you not use br / in the address 
example above? Aren't the semantics of an address that the different 
elements are (usually) on separate lines? 
You answered your own question: Parts of an address are *usually*, but 
*not always*, written on separate lines. The best tag to use, were 
currently available, would probably be the l tag from XHTML 2.

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Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Jon Tan

pstrongAll correspondence should be addressed to:/strongbr /
The Secretarybr /
Your Clubbr /
PO Box 999br /
Anytown VIC 3000/p

How do others code an address? My feeling is that semantically it should
be
contained within one paragraph or entity of some sort. But if you were
using
a screen reader, how would you differentiate one line from the next?


I think that for any agent the semantic way to separate address lines would 
be using a comma at the end of each line as appropriate, which regardless of 
what mark-up was used would be interpreted correctly by screen readers. 
Doesn't this also apply to non-CSS agents too? I.e:


The Secretary,
Your Club,
PO Box 999,
Anytown VIC 3000.

Is just as semantically correct as

The Secretary, Your Club, PO Box 999, Antown VIC 3000.

Regards
Jon Tan
www.gr0w.com



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RE: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Graham Cook
If BR is good enough for W3C, it's good enough for me.

Refer: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/html3/address.html

The ADDRESS element specifies such information as address, signature and
authorship for the current document, and typically placed at the top or
bottom of the document. When used with %text, the element acts similar to a
paragraph with breaks before and after. 

Example: 

ADDRESS
Newsletter editorBR
J.R. BrownBR
8723 Buena Vista, Smallville, CT 01234t;BR
Tel: +1 (123) 456 7890
/ADDRESS

Graham Cook
UA Oz

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Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Mordechai Peller

Terrence Wood wrote:

span has absolutely no semantic value,
That's not quite true. The spans used in the previous examples do have 
semantic value: they group together parts of an address. Admittedly, 
that might not be much, but it's not nothing.

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Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Jon Tan

Curiosity - why use a span and apply display: block? Why not just use a
div in the first place?  What are we gaining that I have missed?


Hi Lea,
The span use instead of div was to allow for semantic class names as per 
http://www.microformats.org/wiki/hcard. Maybe it's also personal preference 
but I would always seek to minimise the block level grouping elements in my 
mark-up.


Jon Tan
www.gr0w.com




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Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Mordechai Peller

Graham Cook wrote:

If BR is good enough for W3C, it's good enough for me.

Refer: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/html3/address.html
  

Sure, back in March 1995 when HTML 3.0 was released as a recommendation.

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Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Jon Tan

If BR is good enough for W3C, it's good enough for me.

Refer: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/html3/address.html



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Hi Graham
Without being pedantic, you're quoting from the HTML 3.0 Draft (Expired) 
which has been superceded by HTML4.01. It's arguable whether address 
applies to the whole resource or just a document within it, but my personal 
reading of the spec suggests to me that it's not appropriate for global 
contact information for a whole resource like a web site which was the 
example intitally given in the discussion. The HTML4.01 address 
recommendation is here: 
http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/struct/global.html#h-7.5.6


Regards
Jon Tan
www.gr0w.com 




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Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Mordechai Peller

Lea de Groot wrote:
Curiosity - why use a span and apply display: block? Why not just use a 
div in the first place?  What are we gaining that I have missed?

It's  invalid:

!ELEMENT address %Inline;



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Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Thierry Koblentz
Jon Tan wrote:
 The span use instead of div was to allow for semantic class names
 as per http://www.microformats.org/wiki/hcard. Maybe it's also
 personal preference but I would always seek to minimise the block
 level grouping elements in my mark-up.

span or div, if the purpose of wrapping these lines is just to make them
behave as block elements, then why not wrapping only 2 our of 4?

address
divThe Secretary/div
Your Club
divPO Box 999/div
Anytown VIC 3000
/address

Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com

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Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Richard Czeiger
OK so someone pointed out that pre would be better for poetry and I agree 
but with some reservations.
pre does a nice job of handling the visual side of things but from a 
screen reader's point of view, how do they handle a line break through pre 
as opposed to br /. Do they pause or say new line? I think, when all is 
said and done though that pre does seem better for poetry.


Anyway, no else has come forward with any examples of when to use br / 
apart from in an address.
This is a pretty smart group - if we can't find a decent use for it outside 
this then maybe we shoud get this formallised. In the same way that 
fieldset elements shouldn't be placed outside a form element, let's tell 
the W3C to specify that line breaks should not be placed outside of the 
address tag.


At least this will end the debate once and for all about Line Breaks.

PS: in terms of the address element itself - check out what's happening 
over here!

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2004/02/xhtml-rdf.html#div154379976

R  :o)



- Original Message - 
From: Patrick H. Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 10:43 AM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br



Hope Stewart wrote:


I was present for Tantek's talk and I thought he said address was used
only for information about the author


Which holds true if the address is used to mark up:

- the contact information for the current site (e.g. if it's a corporate 
site and you're giving the company's contact details)
- if it's something like a directory listing where each member gets their 
own little page, the contact details for that particular member


So, the thread starter should give some info on what he's trying to mark 
up, exactly.


--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
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Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Lea de Groot
On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 03:18:51 +0200, Mordechai Peller wrote:
 It's  invalid:
 
 !ELEMENT address %Inline;

What? No, this is used instead of an address element.
No one suggested we should put divs inside an address.

Jon's reply of matching the hcard microformat is a good one :) Thank 
you, Jon.

warmly,
Lea
-- 
Lea de Groot
Elysian Systems - http://elysiansystems.com/
Brisbane, Australia
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Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Jon Tan

span or div, if the purpose of wrapping these lines is just to make them
behave as block elements, then why not wrapping only 2 our of 4?


If it was pure presenation, sure, but this was with reference to sematics. A 
hCard (which was the original idea of the reply) needs more: 
http://www.microformats.org/wiki/hcard. Ref. using address: Mordechai 
Peller pointed out div within address is invalid.




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Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Geoff Deering

Mordechai Peller wrote:


Graham Cook wrote:


If BR is good enough for W3C, it's good enough for me.

Refer: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/html3/address.html
  


Sure, back in March 1995 when HTML 3.0 was released as a recommendation.



It hasn't changed.

http://www.w3.org/TR/WD-html40-970708/struct/global.html#h-7.1.4.4
http://www.w3.org/TR/2002/WD-xhtml2-20021211/mod-text.html#sec_8.2.

-
Geoff
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Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Mordechai Peller

Jon Tan wrote:
It's arguable whether address applies to the whole resource or just 
a document within it,
In many cases, the contact information for a document and that of its 
site are the same. This is especially true on a Contact Us or an 
About Us type page.

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Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Terrence Wood
I need to rephrase what I said earlier.

If you are using the hcard microformat, or you want to apply styles to
each constiuent use span. If the previous conditions are not true, then
use br, because it has much semantic value as span and uses less
markup.

span is a generic container for language or style attributes that can be
used to give a document structure - like an inline div. In, and of
itself it has no semantic meaning, unlike p, h1, h2 which are
semantic elements.

Used with the hcard format -- and provided my browser knows what hcard is
(which would be possible if it has a namespace) -- then yes it would have
semantic meaning.



kind regards
Terrence Wood.

email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
phone: +64-4-8033354
mobile: +64-21-120-1234

Mordechai Peller said:
 Terrence Wood wrote:
 span has absolutely no semantic value,
 That's not quite true. The spans used in the previous examples do have
 semantic value: they group together parts of an address. Admittedly,
 that might not be much, but it's not nothing.
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RE: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Craig Rippon
Crikey, I use br / all the time. I did not know I was being so naughty. 

-Original Message-
From: Hope Stewart [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Monday, 10 October 2005 8:48 AM
To: Web Standards Group
Subject: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

I'm getting the hang of this whole Web Standards way of designing a website
and for the most part can totally avoid using br. But in the example below
I'm unsure whether I should in fact avoid using br:
 
pstrongAll correspondence should be addressed to:/strongbr / The
Secretarybr / Your Clubbr / PO Box 999br / Anytown VIC 3000/p
 
How do others code an address? My feeling is that semantically it should be
contained within one paragraph or entity of some sort. But if you were using
a screen reader, how would you differentiate one line from the next?

If I were to use an ordered list with list-style-type set to none, would
this be semantically correct? Is there a better way?

Hope Stewart

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RE: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Peter Firminger
This thread is a clear case of why non-standards developers laugh at us (Web
Standards Zealots) and justifiably say we're irrelevant.

We're arguing over a line break! Forget the context (but a postal or street
address is a fine example of the need for a line break in the way most (en)
people write out addresses.

It's part of the way we put text on a page, either with a pen, a thumbnail
dipped in tar or hitting (carriage-)return (a hangover from typewriters, aka
the Enter key) on a keyboard.

It's even still known as CR (carriage-return) or LF (line-feed) or both
(CRLF) within computer-based text terminology.

I know this metaphor has flaws. On a typewriter (excepting the later word
processing ones that were aware of the page size) you HAD to use a carriage
return or you'd go off the page. Same with a pen, you stop at the edge of
the paper and start a new line. But if I handwrite my address, I use line
breaks regardless of the width of the page.

No, it's not print (from a press or a pen) but we still need to follow the
same basics for the written word. I'm not talking about fontography, colour,
width of canvas (parchment/paper/screen) or positioning, these should be
separated from the content. They are akin to calligraphy in handwriting and
changing the ribbon colour (or ink) or the font on the piece of lead or the
golf ball on a typewriter. I'm talking about the basics of the written
word and they ARE semantic.

As for what a screen reader does, we're now talking about the spoken word
but I have never heard a screen reader say something like New line or
Line-feed when it encounters a brso it still works (if I'm wrong about
this please correct me).

A single br to force a line break is ok in this context.

brbr isn't (and never is). If you need two, mark it up correctly within
an appropriate block-level element (container).

P


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Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Alan Trick
1. Why use spans and not divs when divs are already block level
   elements. No need for CSS styling.
2. The main compelling reason to use br's is because semanically that
   is the right way to do it. Not a big deal I though because a line
break is a fairly semantically neurtal thing anyways.

Just my thoughts.

Alan Trick

Jon Tan wrote:
 Tantek Celik talks about the address and br / tags in his Elements of 
 Meaningful XHTML presentation at WE05 available here: 
 http://www.odeo.com/audio/270419/view
 
 My suggestion would be that br / is not necessary when the same visual 
 effect can be achieved with span around each address item which is then 
 style span{display:block} with CSS. Each span could have a semantically 
 useful classname or you could look in to the hCard microformat: 
 http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard
 
 Jon Tan
 Grow Collective
 www.gr0w.com
 
 
 - Original Message - 
 From: Hope Stewart [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Web Standards Group wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2005 11:47 PM
 Subject: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br
 
 
 I'm getting the hang of this whole Web Standards way of designing a website
 and for the most part can totally avoid using br. But in the example below
 I'm unsure whether I should in fact avoid using br:
 
 pstrongAll correspondence should be addressed to:/strongbr /
 The Secretarybr /
 Your Clubbr /
 PO Box 999br /
 Anytown VIC 3000/p
 
 How do others code an address? My feeling is that semantically it should be
 contained within one paragraph or entity of some sort. But if you were using
 a screen reader, how would you differentiate one line from the next?
 
 If I were to use an ordered list with list-style-type set to none, would
 this be semantically correct? Is there a better way?
 
 Hope Stewart
 
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Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Buddy Quaid

Peter Firminger wrote:


This thread is a clear case of why non-standards developers laugh at us (Web
Standards Zealots) and justifiably say we're irrelevant.

We're arguing over a line break! Forget the context (but a postal or street
address is a fine example of the need for a line break in the way most (en)
people write out addresses.

 

I second that. I tried to make a point like this a few threads ago and 
got reamed for it.

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Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Richard Czeiger
I dont' know how it works in the big leagues over at the W3C but I imagine 
that there's a fair amount of discussion internally about every single 
little bit they put into their specs.


Also, I have a stong feeling that our little mailing list here actually is a 
significant player into what the W3C does in the future. Certainly we've had 
their key players chat to us online and in person whenever they're in town. 
What we say here must at least make their ears prick up a little


I think the frustration is that we often keep going over the same ground 
without consensus or a formalised way of doing something with the arguements 
we do end up agreeing on.


Actually offering something up to the W3C on these issues (line breaks, 
address, etc...) and say you guys do a great job, but we think the follow 
section could be clarified and expanded up. If you agree please update the 
spec and put out a note letting everyone know.

Cheers,
WSG

What do you think?
R  :o)


- Original Message - 
From: Buddy Quaid [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 1:50 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br



Peter Firminger wrote:

This thread is a clear case of why non-standards developers laugh at us 
(Web

Standards Zealots) and justifiably say we're irrelevant.

We're arguing over a line break! Forget the context (but a postal or 
street
address is a fine example of the need for a line break in the way most 
(en)

people write out addresses.


I second that. I tried to make a point like this a few threads ago and got 
reamed for it.

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Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Christian Montoya
On 10/9/05, Richard Czeiger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
OK so someone pointed out that pre would be better for poetry That was me.  
pre does a nice job of handling the visual side of things but from ascreen reader's point of view, how do they handle a line break through preas opposed to br /. Do they pause or say new line? I think, when all is
said and done though that pre does seem better for poetry.Actually, I think I learned in poetry class that most poems are meant to be read continuously. In some poems line breaks matter, but it would be up to the screen readers to ensure that the structure of a poem was not lost to the listener. If you tried to style a poem by 
e.e. cummings, you would have a boatload of nbsp; and  br /. Not pretty at all.Glad we agree. Back to the topic at hand, why would you pause when reading an address aloud? If you tell me your address, do I really care where the line breaks are? Read this aloud: 
909 anystreetithaca, new yorkDid you stop at the line break? Did it matter? My point is that we don't need to make the line break obvious to the screen reader. If we want it there for the browser that lacks css we would want the  br /. Sometimes line breaks are necessary visually, with or without css. Otherwise, the span{display:block;} method would work too. I would prefer the  br /. 
For another example of where I use  br /, I sometimes use it in forms, where I want line breaks with or without css.  PS: in terms of the address element itself - check out what's happening
 over here!  http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2004/02/xhtml-rdf.html#div154379976
The resource term looks like a great way to make an address semantic.-- - C Montoyardpdesign.com ... 
liquid.rdpdesign.com ... montoya.rdpdesign.com


Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Christian Montoya
On 10/9/05, Buddy Quaid [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Peter Firminger wrote:This thread is a clear case of why non-standards developers laugh at us (WebStandards Zealots) and justifiably say we're irrelevant.We're arguing over a line break! Forget the context (but a postal or street
address is a fine example of the need for a line break in the way most (en)people write out addresses.I second that. I tried to make a point like this a few threads ago andgot reamed for it.
**The discussion list forhttp://webstandardsgroup.org/ See 
http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list  getting help**Actually, they laugh at us because they are dumb. I really don't care. This is a good, educational thread for me. 
-- - C Montoyardpdesign.com ... liquid.rdpdesign.com ... montoya.rdpdesign.com



Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Richard Czeiger



Hey Christian.
Actually I find when reading an 
address (or telling it to someone else) I do pause after certain 
elements:
street, 
suburb, 
state and postcode (these seem to 
go togetherfor my internal voice - NSW 2011 - almost like a license 
plate)

Saying the whole address wihout 
pausing wouldn't make sense


R


- Original Message - 
From: Christian Montoya 

To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org 
Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 3:38 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

On 10/9/05, Richard 
Czeiger [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
OK 
  so someone pointed out that pre would be better for poetry 
That was me. 
pre 
  does a nice job of handling the visual side of things but from ascreen 
  reader's point of view, how do they handle a line break through 
  preas opposed to br /. Do they pause or say "new line"? I 
  think, when all is said and done though that pre does seem better 
  for poetry.
Actually, I think I learned in poetry class that most poems are meant 
to be read continuously. In some poems line breaks matter, but it would be up to 
the screen readers to ensure that the structure of a poem was not lost to the 
listener. If you tried to style a poem by e.e. cummings, you would have a 
boatload of nbsp; and  br /. Not pretty at all.Glad we 
agree. Back to the topic at hand, why would you pause when reading an address 
aloud? If you tell me your address, do I really care where the line breaks are? 
Read this aloud: 909 anystreetithaca, new yorkDid you stop 
at the line break? Did it matter? My point is that we don't need to make the 
line break obvious to the screen reader. If we want it there for the browser 
that lacks css we would want the  br /. Sometimes line breaks are 
necessary visually, with or without css. Otherwise, the span{display:block;} 
method would work too. I would prefer the  br /. For another 
example of where I use  br /, I sometimes use it in forms, where I want 
line breaks with or without css.  PS: in terms of the 
address element itself - check out what's happening  over here! 
 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2004/02/xhtml-rdf.html#div154379976 
The "resource" term looks like a great way to 
make an address semantic.-- - C Montoyardpdesign.com ... liquid.rdpdesign.com ... montoya.rdpdesign.com